National Postcodes to be introduced

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course it is a routing key if that is what you want to call it. What has a name of part of the randomised code that is Eircode got to do with anything?

The routing key is the part of the eircode that groups addresses geographically. If you use the routing key for a non-geographic purpose, then it's not a routing key anymore.

This is what I'm talking about: amidst the bitching about how eircode is utterly useless because it's non-hierarchical, there's a proposal to take the only part of it that actually is somewhat hierarchical and use that part in a non-hierarchical way. It's ridiculous.

Eircode identifies where the piece of mail is going to. The routing code TAX xxxx identifies the piece of mail as being routed to Revenue. The rest of the code identifies where it has to go as much as any random set of characters in any other Eircode.

Great. I'm sure someone, somewhere who loads one van for "Revenue (everywhere in the country)" and another van for "Castlebar (except Revenue)" will find your suggestion extremely useful.

A Loc8 can be used away from a database, but can be used in a database of official locations to identify postal destinations. Eircode can only be used to identify letterboxes. Note the difference - no contradiction there. I can spell my name in many ways, but my credit card company will only accept the one printed on the card itself, and which matches their database.

In other words, Loc8 codes have many uses, but to be useful as the canonical postcode for Irish addresses, they would have to be used as a database lookup key - one of the primary criticisms of Eircodes.

No sirree bob, no contradiction here.

Bayberry wrote: »

The point is that it's impossible to use eircodes without a database - they're just database lookup keys, after all.

And my point is that it would be impossible to use Loc8 codes as the canonical postcode for an Irish address without a database, so the criticism of a code that requires a database is utterly moot.

GeoCodes have lots of non-database functionality, but there's absolutely nothing preventing you using them in a database if you want to, whether as a primary key or just a unique field.

And there's nothing to prevent you using geocodes for any purpose you want.

To go further, though, you don't even need a database of unique "registered" geocodes to deal with the insurance fraud examples constantly being thrown up. Insurance companies can simply use their existing GIS software to decide whether any GeoCode is sufficient to adequately identify any given application. Unless you think they're not smart enough to figure this out for themselves?

The argument continues to boil down to this: a geocode in conjunction with a separate piece of software would offer the same functionality as eircode, therefore geocodes are better than eircodes, because eircodes require the use of software.

If that argument makes sense to you, fair dues.

threeiron

Bayberry wrote: »

Only in Ireland....

I haven't seen any formal announcements about the launch, are there any?

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

The routing key is the part of the eircode that groups addresses geographically. If you use the routing key for a non-geographic purpose, then it's not a routing key anymore.

This is what I'm talking about: amidst the bitching about how eircode is utterly useless because it's non-hierarchical, there's a proposal to take the only part of it that actually is somewhat hierarchical and use that part in a non-hierarchical way. It's ridiculous. Great. I'm sure someone, somewhere who loads one van for "Revenue (everywhere in the country)" and another van for "Castlebar (except Revenue)" will find your suggestion extremely useful. In other words, Loc8 codes have many uses, but to be useful as the canonical postcode for Irish addresses, they would have to be used as a database lookup key - one of the primary criticisms of Eircodes.

The Eircode is a postcode. The use of the code is to assist the automatic sorting of post. It matters not a jot to the equipment which part of the code is used for what.

If the revenue office in Castlebar is used for dealing with bicycle tax and that moves to Limerick, the post code would have to be changed on all the forms, but not if it is a Revenue specific code. The Revenue are an all Ireland operation and non-geographic by nature for much of their dealings. All that would need to be on the envelope would be 'Revenue REV 6YU2' and An Post would deliver it because the actual address would be input to their sorting machines. It would never go into the Castlebar bag, it would go into the Revenue - Castlebar bag.

Non-geographic mail is an important element in postal deliveries and modern sorting systems can deal with it. Pity Eircode cannot.

TheBustedFlush

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Eircode is a postcode. The use of the code is to assist the automatic sorting of post. It matters not a jot to the equipment which part of the code is used for what.

If the revenue office in Castlebar is used for dealing with bicycle tax and that moves to Limerick, the post code would have to be changed on all the forms, but not if it is a Revenue specific code. The Revenue are an all Ireland operation and non-geographic by nature for much of their dealings. All that would need to be on the envelope would be 'Revenue REV 6YU2' and An Post would deliver it because the actual address would be input to their sorting machines. It would never go into the Castlebar bag, it would go into the Revenue - Castlebar bag.

Non-geographic mail is an important element in postal deliveries and modern sorting systems can deal with it. Pity Eircode cannot.

I think what you're talking about is for certain organisations to have one PO Box type eircode reserved for all their mail. e.g. R11 3344 or something

An Post will provide this facility for a number of public and private sector national organisations who've been looking for such a service.

TheBustedFlush

oscarBravo wrote: »

In other words, Loc8 codes have many uses, but to be useful as the canonical postcode for Irish addresses, they would have to be used as a database lookup key - one of the primary criticisms of Eircodes.

This is the fatal flaw in the arguments of Loc8 advocates. That location codes don't need a database, people can self-serve instead. This may well be true for a code that is simply used sporadically by a small number of people from time to time. But it isn't the basis for a national postcode system for all Irish addresses.

jimmii

threeiron wrote: »

I haven't seen any formal announcements about the launch, are there any?

Eircode newsletter that went out during the week gave the date as Monday.

Dear customer

We are pleased to inform you that Eircode, the new postcode system for Ireland, will launch on Monday 13th July. From Monday, all residents and businesses will receive a letter notifying them of the Eircode for their address and the Eircode Finder will be available for the public to find or check an Eircode.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

In other words, Loc8 codes have many uses, but to be useful as the canonical postcode for Irish addresses, they would have to be used as a database lookup key - one of the primary criticisms of Eircodes.

No sirree bob, no contradiction here.

At this stage, it looks like you are deliberately misunderstanding.
The criticism is this; eircode is absolutely useless without access to the database.
Loc8 is useful with a database, or without one. It can be input directly into satnavs, or worked out on paper, or used intuitively. All this is tried and tested, and already in use.
Putting it onto a new official or "canonical" database merely adds one extra layer of functionality; this new role of being the official State unique identifier for letterbox (billing address) points. A need which has arisen mainly since 2010 when the govt. agreed with the IMF to impose property tax and water charges.
Even without being on that listing, loc8 could still restrict the number of codes being generated to one code per geographical site, if they wanted to, which would make it a unique identifier. But that would compromise other functionality.

plodder

godskitchen wrote: »

I don't know a great deal about the system other than what clients in the transportation industry tell me, it doesn't sound good.

What I do know though is the UK system and how it works and I also know the UK very well having grew up there....

With that, the point about postcode snobbery in the UK is utter nonsense, sure you have the odd area in each town that is seen as better or worse by post code but you have the same here without postcodes.

Banks do not refuse loans on postcodes, despite what the daily mail might say.

What you get is silly season stories in newspapers when mistakes occur. It makes absolutely no sense to refuse someone a loan because someone else in the same postcode was refused.

The more credible (if still misleading) claim that is made with respect to this country is that one set of areas might make sense for one purpose (eg flood risk) but don't make sense for crime risk. While that is actually true, it is misleading because:

a) small areas are actually small enough that they can be combined for a multitude of different purposes (eg flood risk areas, or crime risk areas)

b) even if they weren't small enough, users can still do exactly what Eircode is forcing them to do, ie. make up their own areas using the individual addresses. In fact, Eircode licensees are likely to use small-areas exactly for that purpose. Otherwise, they will have to use complicated GIS systems to create their own areas.

<edit>and for the avoidance of confusion, I'm not a loc8 advocate. I think Eircode would be vastly improved if it had a second level of structure representing small areas.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

The criticism is this; eircode is absolutely useless without access to the database.

And that criticism is untrue. Without access to the database, I can tell that any Eircode beginning with "D" relates to Dublin. It's becoming apparent that this is also true of "A", and similarly the routing keys will have a usefulness of their own as it becomes obvious to where they refer.

What you're actually saying - but phrasing it unfairly and misleadingly - is that an eircode can't pinpoint an exact location without a database lookup. In other words, you're carefully hand-crafting a definition of "useful" that means only one thing: the ability to locate the code without database access, and concluding that the code is therefore "useless".

If you're determined to frame the argument in such a way as to funnel it towards your preferred conclusion, then fine: I'll agree that if the sole criterion for the design of a postcode was the ability to sit down with an Ordnance Survey paper map, a pencil and a slide rule and painstakingly hand-calculate the location of the code, then eircode would be a poor fit for that criterion.

Bizarrely, and for reasons that may never become clear, that wasn't the primary criterion when designing a postcode solution for Ireland.

Loc8 is useful with a database, or without one. It can be input directly into satnavs, or worked out on paper, or used intuitively. All this is tried and tested, and already in use.
Putting it onto a new official or "canonical" database merely adds one extra layer of functionality; this new role of being the official State unique identifier for letterbox (billing address) points.

So Eircodes are useless as the canonical identifier of postal addresses in this country, because they require database access. Loc8 codes would be the perfect solution as the canonical identifier of postal addresses in this country, with the simple addition of database access.

Right.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

At this stage, it looks like you are deliberately misunderstanding.
The criticism is this; eircode is absolutely useless without access to the database.
Loc8 is useful with a database, or without one. It can be input directly into satnavs, or worked out on paper, or used intuitively. All this is tried and tested, and already in use.
Putting it onto a new official or "canonical" database merely adds one extra layer of functionality; this new role of being the official State unique identifier for letterbox (billing address) points. A need which has arisen mainly since 2010 when the govt. agreed with the IMF to impose property tax and water charges.
Even without being on that listing, loc8 could still restrict the number of codes being generated to one code per geographical site, if they wanted to, which would make it a unique identifier. But that would compromise other functionality.

This is nonsense. The customer (the state) and a large amount of other customers - public and private - want a database of addresses and their official postcodes to transact their business. It doesn't matter what Loc8 and its advocates think the customer should get, it's the customer who decides since they are paying for it. The arguments for having more precise postcodes - at least to building level has been made for over a decade. Loc8 already operates a database to hold addresses and codes that people have requested. It also uses a database of addresses for users to find/allocate their code. For a location code to be useful to more than just a handful of people/businesses, it has to be linked into national systems, databases, address lists, etc.

irishgeo

these boys are on all the ball a uk company http://www.simunix.com/ has registered eircodefinder.ie, top result on google.

dr.fuzzenstein

And I keep saying it. "Eircode is useless because we would have to have some kind of portable computer that has access to some kind of map database and on top of that will have to be able to somehow calculate it's own position and guide to where you are going and how to get there, OMG! That is, like, so stupid!"
Which would have been a very good argument as recently as the 90's, when the technology to pull that off would already have existed...:) (But cost a few bob)

But seriously, who still carries a map? Would that person then not carry a phone? Furthermore, would that person insist on using the map and refuse to use the phone? Or maybe they may still have one of those quaint sat-navs that where all the rage 10 years ago?
As I said, good arguments. In the 90's.

Trouwe Ier

threeiron wrote: »

What time is the launch at? Will Eircode Finder be live after midnight on Sunday or after the Minister does the launch?

Obviously, they could tell us but they would have to shoot us:rolleyes:

I imagine that there'll be a press release tomorrow that will be embargoed until, say 06.00 on Monday and that it'll be mentioned on news bulletins and perhaps a few radio chat shows.

I see no reason not to have it live for say 09.00.

In years gone by, ministers often launched schemes or opened roads retrospectively. Obviously, there will have to be some sort of ceremony but this is an I.T. project albeit affecting everyone lucky enough to have a roof over their heads, so I can't see the public going orgasmic about it.

TheChizler

Another thing that keeps being pointed out that loc8 can be put into a satnav and found without consulting a database. The satnav does however need to consult a database in order to plot roads, landmarks and find directions. Eircode would be just one more field in this database. For direct coordinate translation it's less than 25 Mb uncompressed.

threeiron

thanks, it is more just a message to let us now that we are wasting our time trying to access eircode finder before X a.m. on Monday. not good to alienate the early adopters.

threeiron

thanks, it is more just a message to let us know that we are wasting our time trying to access eircode finder before X a.m. on Monday. not good to alienate the early adopters.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

Without access to the database, I can tell that any Eircode beginning with "D" relates to Dublin.

OK, fair enough. I'll rephrase that to almost useless.

oscarBravo wrote: »

So Eircodes are useless as the canonical identifier of postal addresses in this country, because they require database access. Loc8 codes would be the perfect solution as the canonical identifier of postal addresses in this country, with the simple addition of database access.

I'm not saying eircodes will be useless for that specific purpose.
I'm saying existing location codes would fulfill that purpose, plus a lot more besides.

Trouwe Ier

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Obviously, they could tell us but they would have to shoot us:rolleyes:

I imagine that there'll be a press release tomorrow that will be embargoed until, say 06.00 on Monday and that it'll be mentioned on news bulletins and perhaps a few radio chat shows.

I see no reason not to have it live for say 09.00.

In years gone by, ministers often launched schemes or opened roads retrospectively. Obviously, there will have to be some sort of ceremony but this is an I.T. project albeit affecting everyone lucky enough to have a roof over their heads, so I can't see the public going orgasmic about it.

I suppose that any official launch would involve someone being seen posting a letter with a postcode on it, the website is a different thing altogether and with the exception of the geeks here, it shouldn't get too much traffic on day one.

Most people will just wait* for the letter (post card) to arrive and blankly put it with all the other "official post", only referring to it when the bank or some other company request it to update their records.

*they won't actually wait, it'll just arrive and be greeted by indifference.

Bayberry

recedite wrote: »

I'm not saying eircodes will be useless for that specific purpose.
I'm saying existing location codes would fulfill that purpose, plus a lot more besides.

Leave it be - it's easier for him to argue against a straw man that he put in your mouth, so you're wasting your time pointing out the obvious lies and/or stupidities in his arguments against points that were never made in the first place.

oscarBravo

Bayberry wrote: »

Leave it be - it's easier for him to argue against a straw man that he put in your mouth, so you're wasting your time pointing out the obvious lies and/or stupidities in his arguments against points that were never made in the first place.

Where have I lied?

It has been claimed that eircodes are flawed because they require a database lookup in order to determine an exact location - true or false?

It has been claimed that Loc8 codes could have served as the canonical national postcode if there was a database that could be looked up to determine which of several Loc8 codes was the "correct" one for a specific property - true or false?

It has been claimed that Loc8 codes can be used to determine the best order to load a van without reference to a road map, simply by visual inspection - true or false?

It has been claimed that a major flaw of Eircodes is that they do not offer a geographical hierarchy; it has also been claimed that a flaw of Eircodes is that they didn't include non-geographical routing keys that would override the one part of the code that is in fact somewhat geographical - true or false?

If you're going to accuse me of lying, you could at least have the manners to point out what I've said that isn't true.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

I'm not saying eircodes will be useless for that specific purpose.
I'm saying existing location codes would fulfill that purpose, plus a lot more besides.

And I'm pointing out, in turn, that in order to fulfill that purpose, they would require a feature of Eircodes that has been excoriated as one of its biggest flaws: the requirement for a database or other software system.

If you can't accept that it's self-defeating to denounce a system because it requires a database, while simultaneously claiming that the perfect replacement is another system that requires a database... I just don't know. Apparently this is a straw man argument that I've put in your mouth (wha?) and I'm a liar - I guess that's easier than actually refuting what I've said.

TheBustedFlush

oscarBravo wrote: »

And I'm pointing out, in turn, that in order to fulfill that purpose, they would require a feature of Eircodes that has been excoriated as one of its biggest flaws: the requirement for a database or other software system.

If you can't accept that it's self-defeating to denounce a system because it requires a database, while simultaneously claiming that the perfect replacement is another system that requires a database... I just don't know. Apparently this is a straw man argument that I've put in your mouth (wha?) and I'm a liar - I guess that's easier than actually refuting what I've said.

It's not as if the need for a database was a surprise since the criteria for the postcode system/design specified that one had to be created and also signalled against the use of a design that might impact on the priority of coding each address:

1. First three characters of the code must denote the post-town for an address
2. Avoid the use of place names in code
3. Incorporate the codes of the existing Dublin districts
4. The code not to be longer than ten characters, including any spaces
5. Be consistent and memorable
6. Each code, on its own, must identify a postal address, incl. apartments
7. Be compatible with An Post's systems
8. Prioritise coding postal addresses but could be used for coding other places or points of information as long as it didn't negatively affect coding addresses
9. Be able to accommodate changes in capacity and technology
10. Include the new postcodes in a new postal address database to be created from GeoDirectory.

Looking at those criteria, how many of them would Loc8 have been able to actually meet with its design?

irishgeo

TheChizler wrote: »

Another thing that keeps being pointed out that loc8 can be put into a satnav and found without consulting a database. The satnav does however need to consult a database in order to plot roads, landmarks and find directions. Eircode would be just one more field in this database. For direct coordinate translation it's less than 25 Mb uncompressed.

Loc8 code is onlky supported by one type of satnav maker though.

plodder

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

It's not as if the need for a database was a surprise since the criteria for the postcode system/design specified that one had to be created and also signalled against the use of a design that might impact on the priority of coding each address:

1. First three characters of the code must denote the post-town for an address
2. Avoid the use of place names in code
3. Incorporate the codes of the existing Dublin districts
4. The code not to be longer than ten characters, including any spaces
5. Be consistent and memorable
6. Each code, on its own, must identify a postal address, incl. apartments
7. Be compatible with An Post's systems
8. Prioritise coding postal addresses but could be used for coding other places or points of information as long as it didn't negatively affect coding addresses
9. Be able to accommodate changes in capacity and technology
10. Include the new postcodes in a new postal address database to be created from GeoDirectory.

Looking at those criteria, how many of them would Loc8 have been able to actually meet with its design?

If those were the criteria, why didn't they make Eircode hierarchical as it would have been the same on all of them, except better on number 5.

More generally, where did these requirements come from? They contradict the thinking of the dept. up until quite recently, that the initial characters should represent actual placenames (ATH for Athlone, GAL for Galway). Also, some of them are contradictory (5. and 2.)

GJG

plodder wrote: »

If those were the criteria, why didn't they make Eircode hierarchical as it would have been the same on all of them, except better on number 5.

More generally, where did these requirements come from? They contradict the thinking of the dept. up until quite recently, that the initial characters should represent actual placenames (ATH for Athlone, GAL for Galway). Also, some of them are contradictory (5. and 2.)

That was the proposal that came out under Eamon Ryan. There was ferocious behind-the-scenes resistance to postcodes at the time, from the CWU, An Post management and their civil service friends.

These guys were cute enough not to oppose postcodes publically, but instead promoted a system that was bound to fail. It had two time-bombs in it. First, it didn't resolve the unique addressing problem, it specified that houses on the same road that had the same address would also get the same postcode. Secondly, it embedded English-language place names in the codes, which was sure to generate opposition from Irish-language promoters.

They calculated, correctly, that the lack of usefulness meant that it would not be defended stoutly when opposed, and they could throw up their hands and say, well, we tried!

Pat Rabbite, I think showing his experience of government and trade union politics, restarted the project and drove it through with a mixture of confronting and appeasing the opposition, although if you look at the comments here, with people fantasising about everything from civil disobedience to the president creating a constitutional crisis by refusing to sign a minor technical piece of legislation, it is evident that there is still entrenched opposition.

plodder

GJG wrote: »

That was the proposal that came out under Eamon Ryan. There was ferocious behind-the-scenes resistance to postcodes at the time, from the CWU, An Post management and their civil service friends.

These guys were cute enough not to oppose postcodes publically, but instead promoted a system that was bound to fail. It had two time-bombs in it. First, it didn't resolve the unique addressing problem, it specified that houses on the same road that had the same address would also get the same postcode. Secondly, it embedded English-language place names in the codes, which was sure to generate opposition from Irish-language promoters.

They calculated, correctly, that the lack of usefulness meant that it would not be defended stoutly when opposed, and they could throw up their hands and say, well, we tried!

Pat Rabbite, I think showing his experience of government and trade union politics, restarted the project and drove it through with a mixture of confronting and appeasing the opposition, although if you look at the comments here, with people fantasising about everything from civil disobedience to the president creating a constitutional crisis by refusing to sign a minor technical piece of legislation, it is evident that there is still entrenched opposition.

Whatever about the ins and outs of the politicking, it's no way to design a postcode, to just pull the design out of a hat as part of a tender competition, and/or by "appeasing" opposition. While I think An Post deserve the money they are making out of this, with hindsight, the requirement to fit with their delivery structure, and the random aspect, will be seen as a mistake.

threeiron

plodder wrote: »

the requirement to fit with their delivery structure, and the random aspect, will be seen as a mistake.

The random aspect does not bother me but if, as stated previously, the principal postal town for Limerick is 80,000 addresses then that is too big. Hard to understand why that could not have been broken into 4-5 smaller areas that still added to the whole area e.g. V01 to V05 rather than V01 or whatever the real coding is. An Post could have ignored the separation while other distributors could have benefitted from it.

SpaceTime

An Post also would have had more delivery areas in the past so for example in Cork there are now just two delivery offices.

It had at least 4 originally hence the old Cork 1, 2, 3 and 4 designations which are sign posted but for some reason no longer used and appear to have been ignored by eircode.

Collecting a parcel for me (based nearly in the city centre) now requires a 5km drive to the most unattractive location you could imagine. It's down a sort of a lane behind a huge eircom exchange next to a scrap yard.

It's actually so bad that I avoid using An Post services for online orders or use parcel motel instead of my actual address if I know I might miss the package

Different thread and topic, but I'm not really sure why when this was supposed to be a national resource and a code for everyone that we've been shafted with some kind of a thing that's just linked to An Post's quite odd delivery structure.

I'm sure it'll be a great system for collecting taxes and charges but it's really missed an opportunity to be genuinely useful.

Yeah, it has the advantage of individual codes for each address but that could have been done within a structure.

Even having just shifted the space to the left and done something like

X99A 1A2 would have given them the option of lots of sub areas while still maintaining the random house numbers. They could have created something useful with just smaller areas.

Too late now, we're stuck with this.

Sam Russell

SpaceTime wrote: »

An Post also would have had more delivery areas in the past so for example in Cork there are now just two delivery offices.

Collecting a parcel for me (based nearly in the city centre) now requires a 5km drive to the most unattractive location you could imagine. It's down a sort of a lane behind a huge eircom exchange next to a scrap yard.

It's actually so bad that I avoid using An Post services for online orders or use parcel motel instead of my actual address if I know I might miss the package

Different thread and topic, but I'm not really sure why when this was supposed to be a national resource and a code for everyone that we've been shafted with some kind of a thing that's just linked to An Post's quite odd delivery structure.

And what happens when this changes? For example one post town is closed and the area is divided among local post towns? Ooops.

SpaceTime

Sam Russell wrote: »

And what happens when this changes? For example one post town is closed and the area is divided among local post towns? Ooops.

Apparently that won't matter because then hey can just map the codes to the new centre.

What I don't get though is they could have come up with a system that made sense from a general mapping point of view linking the codes to smaller areas and still mapped the thing to An Post's delivery office network.

The whole thing only makes sense if you were going to hand sort the mail to local delivery offices in which case this is an An Post code and nothing else.