National Postcodes to be introduced

Trouwe Ier

Another day of obsessive tweeting.....

GetLostEircodes 8:31pm via Twitter for Android
@autoaddress @Gamma_irl See Waterford Co. Co. unanimously voted tonight calling for #Eircode to be scrapped. Hurrah for local democracy.

Er.....I think that particular local authority was scrapped itself over a year ago!

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

An Post is a semi-state company, meaning the government can give and take money from them whenever they want. They are a shareholder. Same as with ESB, they took money from them last year, same as Irish Rail, they give them money because they can't make any themselves.

Governments give "state aid" in various ways to public and private bodies all the time - but it doesn't have a completely free hand in what it does. A Government can't give a subsidy to a "semi-state" body simpy to give it a competitive boost againt private competitors - so the Government couldn't pump money into Aer Lingus in the past so that it could compete with RyanAir, but it can provide subsidies to CIE to provide public transport. RTE benefits from the TV License fee, but that's not illegal state aid. The basis of the FTAI claim, as I understand it, is that the economics of eircode have been arranged to boost An Post to the detriment of their commercial competitors. I really don't know whether there's any fire behind that smoke, but as long as the long standing aversion to transparency persists, it's the type of question that will hang over eircode.

And by the way, I whole heartedly support a postcode that's self financing by being able to be licenced out to commercial entities for them to also benefit from using it. It's a proven system that works.

I've no problem with a system that covers its costs - but I'd like transparency about the costs involved.

Bayberry

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Another day of obsessive tweeting.....

GetLostEircodes 8:31pm via Twitter for Android
@autoaddress @Gamma_irl See Waterford Co. Co. unanimously voted tonight calling for #Eircode to be scrapped. Hurrah for local democracy.

Er.....I think that particular local authority was scrapped itself over a year ago!

Waterford City and County Council had a plenary meeting tonight at 5PM.
http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/en/Council/Plenary,Council/Plenary,Meetings,2015/

SpaceTime

The thing is outside this thread I'd say most people have no idea how a post code works and don't care.

They'll get away with this poor design because of that.

Sheldons Brain

Discussion on RTÉ radio 1 now.

plodder

SpaceTime wrote: »

The thing is outside this thread I'd say most people have no idea how a post code works and don't care.

They'll get away with this poor design because of that.

Of course, they'll "get away with it". But there will be practical implications of the randomness. That will hinder adoption to some extent - how much will be hard to know. I predict a certain amount of apathy in urban areas with well structured addresses, and more enthusiastic adoption in rural areas that will genuinely benefit from it. Though that depends on satnav support. If there isn't some support from day 1, then all bets are off.

SpaceTime

plodder wrote: »

Of course, they'll "get away with it". But there will be practical implications of the randomness. That will hinder adoption to some extent - how much will be hard to know. I predict a certain amount of apathy in urban areas with well structured addresses, and more enthusiastic adoption in rural areas that will genuinely benefit from it. Though that depends on satnav support. If there isn't some support from day 1, then all bets are off.

I'd say there'll be very, very poor uptake.

loyatemu

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd say there'll be very, very poor uptake.

I'd say people will use them where necessary - i.e. if a company/form asks for it, or if they have a non-unique address and problems with post going astray.

One use-case I can think of is Sky - a lot of people (existing customers) use variants on their address to sign up for new discounted deals (see the Bargain Alerts thread) - if you have to give them your Eircode (and I'm sure Sky will now insist on this) this trick will no longer be possible.

chewed

According to this site, the eircode finder will be available in Spring 2015!!!!

http://eircodefinder.ie

Sam Russell

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Discussion on RTÉ radio 1 now.

Unfortunately the RTE reporter knows very little and what he knows is wrong.

larchill

This must be the best kept secret ever, no one knows anything :mad: Did the RTE Radio item mention a launch date?

Trouwe Ier

loyatemu wrote: »

I'd say people will use them where necessary - i.e. if a company/form asks for it, or if they have a non-unique address and problems with post going astray.

One use-case I can think of is Sky - a lot of people (existing customers) use variants on their address to sign up for new discounted deals (see the Bargain Alerts thread) - if you have to give them your Eircode (and I'm sure Sky will now insist on this) this trick will no longer be possible.

I am aware of a dodgy character who successfully registered a dodgy vehicle using a street name that does not exist but would be comparable to something like 58 Foynes Road, Waterford. Tax reminders, penalty points etc all went astray and nothing could stick. Hopefully, this will be a thing of the past.

In my own case, the second last time I registered a vehicle, I had to return the log book to Shannon THREE times because they could not spell my address correctly.

It appears that the vehicle registration database did/does not have a link with the geodirectory database. Hopefully, this too will be a thing of the past.

plodder

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

I am aware of a dodgy character who successfully registered a dodgy vehicle using a street name that does not exist but would be comparable to something like 58 Foynes Road, Waterford. Tax reminders, penalty points etc all went astray and nothing could stick. Hopefully, this will be a thing of the past.

In my own case, the second last time I registered a vehicle, I had to return the log book to Shannon THREE times because they could not spell my address correctly.

It appears that the vehicle registration database did/does not have a link with the geodirectory database. Hopefully, this too will be a thing of the past.

These are all good examples of benefits to society that unique identifiers will bring. Whether the populace welcomes them accordingly with open arms is another question ...

Sam Russell

larchill wrote: »

This must be the best kept secret ever, no one knows anything :mad: Did the RTE Radio item mention a launch date?

Yes, he had read the press release/information booklet (marked Embargoed - not for release to the general public under any circumstances). Unfortunately he had not read this thread otherwise he would know nearly everything (but not quite - there are some things still secret).

All will be revealed next Monday - possibly. We will all get a postcard in the post - if they can find our house.

Bayberry

plodder wrote: »

These are all good examples of benefits to society that unique identifiers will bring. Whether the populace welcomes them accordingly with open arms is another question ...

These are all examples of things that can already be dealt with using existing technology, such as Geodirectory. Why would companies/public bodies that don't care about these problems now be all that pushed about using eircode to fix them?

dr.fuzzenstein

Bayberry wrote: »

These are all examples of things that can already be dealt with using existing technology, such as Geodirectory. Why would companies/public bodies that don't care about these problems now be all that pushed about using eircode to fix them?

It's more like, they don't care about existing technology, so why care for new ones? Never underestimate laziness and ineptitude of a lot of Irish companies.
Met a Tesco delivery van yesterday out my area (near enough to Gort) and he was looking for an address that looked almost like mine, but one addition meant that the address he was looking for is clean on the other side of county Clare. The only tool he had was his phone and google maps.
So, the very passionate and vocal proponents of other location tools, they're all well and good, but of limited use if nobody uses them.
Never has a courier asked me for any kind of location code. The couriers that do come can find us because they know where I live. If another driver fills in for the day, my post doesn't arrive.
And THAT is the bottom line, I don't care about anything beyond that.

ukoda

Latest newsletter

Trouwe Ier

Extract from http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/programmes/2015/0710/713863-today-with-sean-o-rourke-friday-10-july-2015/?clipid=1926566

I could not listen to the clip but I presume that this is not the Brian O'Connell who was RTE's correspondent in London.

One telling quote: "Loc8 did not bid for the contract, either on its own or as part of a consortium."

He never even had the rattle in the pram. A number of other phrases come to mind here, the most polite being "hurler on the ditch".

The question about councils deciding not to adapt the codes seems a wee bit daft to me. Why wouldn't they if they are part of the public service. Presumably Meath and Waterford will too!

New Postcode System for Ireland
New Postcode System for Ireland
On Monday, a new postcode system for Ireland will be launched. After years of planning, Eircode will come into being. Despite this several stakeholders are less than impressed with the kind of postcode we have adopted. Our reporter Brian O’Connell has been looking at the issue and joined Sean this morning.

Q&A with Eircode

Can you explain why the decision was taken to have a code that is not sequenced? In that it appears to me buildings adjacent bear no link to each other in the database. Why did we decide to go with this kind of system when the likes of freight operators for example are against it?

The fact that Eircodes are not sequenced with those of adjacent buildings brings no disadvantages to users. This is because each Eircode comes with co-ordinates, which means any series of Eircodes can be put in sequence for delivery or other purposes using basic software. See slide 6 in the attached presentation for more information.

From a citizens’ point of view, the most important thing is that the Eircode is easy to remember.

A sequenced code would require thousands of individual postcodes to be re-assigned every time a new premises was built between existing buildings. Aside from the administrative costs this would entail, it would mean an individual citizen’s post code could change frequently, making it difficult to remember the correct, current, code. It would also put additional costs on businesses, who would have to change stationary and other printed materials each time the code changed to maintain the sequence.

It is inaccurate to say that all freight operators are “against it.” For example Nightline, which is the biggest delivery company in Ireland, fully supports Eircode and says it will be using the system shortly after launch.

Gary Delaney from the company Loc8 proposed an alternative form of postcode, more in keeping he says with the way postcodes have evolved internationally. Why is it his system was not adopted?

Loc8 did not bid for the contract, either on its own or as part of a consortium.

As is required for all Government procurement, there was a comprehensive procurement process for a 10 year licence to provide the postcode system. This covered design, encoding of public sector databases, implementation, and the on-going operation and management of the system for ten years. This process was carried out in accordance with national and EU procurement procedures.

Can you explain maybe in a paragraph who exactly Eircode will benefit, and what the actual need for it is? How will it impact on people's day to day lives.

Eircodes will bring many benefits to citizens, communities and business. For example:

It will be easier to accurately identify addresses, including the 35% of Irish premises that currently share their address with one or more others.
It will be easier to shop online.
Businesses that deliver parcels – or other goods and services – will have an affordable and effective new tool, which accurately identifies addresses and enables improved efficiency.
A wide range of public services will be delivered more efficiently improving quality and planning, while reducing costs.
Emergency services will be able to find the correct address more quickly, particularly in rural areas.
On costs, is the total amount spent €27 million? Of this how much was spent on the actual code? I understand it may have been €2 million. Can you confirm what that amount is?
The total cost of €27m covers the various elements of design (including coding), encoding of public sector databases, and the implementation and on-going management of the operation of Eircodes. The costs associated with the design and verification of the code itself are included in the design element, which amounts to 9% of the total cost. The largest element of the costs were encoding public service databases and accessing the GeoDirectory database, which is owned by An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland.

What happens if county or city councils decide not to adopt Eircode?

It is not mandatory for any individual or organisation to use Eircodes. As is common across the OECD, we expect it to be widely used because of the benefits it will bring (see above). This point also applies to City/Councils.

The Department has worked closely with a wide range of public service organisations, including the Local Government Management Agency (LGMA). Local authority electoral registers and rates files have been updated with Eircodes.

Aimead

ukoda wrote: »

And because they are of no use to helping with the problems of non unique addresses.

You’ve said this a number of times, but this doesn’t explain why (in trying to fix this problem) Eircode decided to introduce a much MUCH bigger problem.

Part of my job is organising what way to load trucks and vans. Ideally you want to load any van or trailer so that, when you have string of deliveries, the items you need to unload at each destination aren’t blocked and are easily accessible. If our drivers have to go scrummaging through the van/trailer on each arrival a huge amount of time is wasted. For the heavy pallets this is a non-started since many of the places we deliver to do not have any pallet truck or folklift.

A significant amount of our deliveries is real back-arse-of-nowhere territory, your typical farmland up a ****ty lane. Naturally we try to organise loads into clusters. If we can make 20 deliveries in a single trip then our costs are lower than doing 20 separate deliveries. We’ll work with anything that helps us find our destinations – GPS, loc8, OpenPostcode, OS grid, etc. If we get as far as the door of the place we’re delivering to (or even the field entrance as the case may be) then happy days. I think we’ve been using loc8 for 3 or 4 years now, and we’ve never had an issue.

Right now I can tell you that, for what we need, Eircodes are a complete and utter waste of space. I can tell from GPS, loc8, OS grid, OpenPostcode, the postcode used in the North, etc., where locations are in relation to each other, and then use that information for planning what way our vans/trailers are loaded. How can I do that with Eircode? The whole system was designed to be non-hierarchical, so how the feck am I supposed to know how to do our loadings?

The frustrating thing is that, some time ago, I helped gather some notes that was eventually submitted as part of the consultation process. It feels like that everything the transport industry said wasn’t just ignored, but that Eircode was expressly designed to piss on us.

The bit that really gets my goat in all of this? Do those, like yourself, who defend this piece of shyte really believe that uniqueness and having a hierarchical structure are mutually exclusive? I’ve read and I’ve listened to so many defences of Eircode that use the point of uniqueness where I have to imagine that the writer/speaker simply doesn’t know what the feck they’re talking about.
[/quote]Loc8 can serve the 1% who need a code for other purposes. [/QUOTE]
Never knew the transport industry was 1%. You’re having laugh mate.

NIMAN

We have a local information meeting about the postcodes in Inishowen on 14th July.

Not sure who exactly is hosting it tbh.

seamus

Aimead wrote: »

Right now I can tell you that, for what we need, Eircodes are a complete and utter waste of space. I can tell from GPS, loc8, OS grid, OpenPostcode, the postcode used in the North, etc., where locations are in relation to each other, and then use that information for planning what way our vans/trailers are loaded. How can I do that with Eircode? The whole system was designed to be non-hierarchical, so how the feck am I supposed to know how to do our loadings?

Isn't it obvious? You pay a 3rd party software provider company a large fee to develop connector software between your backoffice systems and their online application.
Their online application in turn converts Eircodes into a GPS co-ordinates. Oh, and you pay them a hefty licence fee for accessing their online Eircode-to-GPS application, because you know they have to pay Eircode a big licence fee to access Eircode's database.

oscarBravo

Aimead wrote: »

I can tell from GPS, loc8, OS grid, OpenPostcode, the postcode used in the North, etc., where locations are in relation to each other, and then use that information for planning what way our vans/trailers are loaded.

So if you had to deliver to ED7-91-7NJ, EF5-96-7MJ and EF5-80-DP7, in what order would you load the van? No sneaky looking them up, now - you said you can tell from the code.

ukoda

Aimead wrote: »

You’ve said this a number of times, but this doesn’t explain why (in trying to fix this problem) Eircode decided to introduce a much MUCH bigger problem.

Part of my job is organising what way to load trucks and vans. Ideally you want to load any van or trailer so that, when you have string of deliveries, the items you need to unload at each destination aren’t blocked and are easily accessible. If our drivers have to go scrummaging through the van/trailer on each arrival a huge amount of time is wasted. For the heavy pallets this is a non-started since many of the places we deliver to do not have any pallet truck or folklift.

A significant amount of our deliveries is real back-arse-of-nowhere territory, your typical farmland up a ****ty lane. Naturally we try to organise loads into clusters. If we can make 20 deliveries in a single trip then our costs are lower than doing 20 separate deliveries. We’ll work with anything that helps us find our destinations – GPS, loc8, OpenPostcode, OS grid, etc. If we get as far as the door of the place we’re delivering to (or even the field entrance as the case may be) then happy days. I think we’ve been using loc8 for 3 or 4 years now, and we’ve never had an issue.

Right now I can tell you that, for what we need, Eircodes are a complete and utter waste of space. I can tell from GPS, loc8, OS grid, OpenPostcode, the postcode used in the North, etc., where locations are in relation to each other, and then use that information for planning what way our vans/trailers are loaded. How can I do that with Eircode? The whole system was designed to be non-hierarchical, so how the feck am I supposed to know how to do our loadings?

The frustrating thing is that, some time ago, I helped gather some notes that was eventually submitted as part of the consultation process. It feels like that everything the transport industry said wasn’t just ignored, but that Eircode was expressly designed to piss on us.

The bit that really gets my goat in all of this? Do those, like yourself, who defend this piece of shyte really believe that uniqueness and having a hierarchical structure are mutually exclusive? I’ve read and I’ve listened to so many defences of Eircode that use the point of uniqueness where I have to imagine that the writer/speaker simply doesn’t know what the feck they’re talking about.

Loc8 can serve the 1% who need a code for other purposes. [/QUOTE]
Never knew the transport industry was 1%. You’re having laugh mate.[/quote]


How have you been using loc8 for 3 or 4 years when no one puts them on their packages for delivery?

Do you look up the loc8 code from the address or how do you do it? So you need a computer?

You say you use GPS? Eircode will give you the Geo code of every package, yet you wont use it?

You can get a route planning app for your Phone that uses the camera to scan each package and then plans the route for you and gives you the list of postcodes in order they will be delivered so you can load the van accordingly, then you hit a button and it starts the route giving you turn by turn directions. This is called using modern technology to be as efficient as possible. But if you want to keep doing it the way you are doing it, then you are entitled to do that.

From what I can tell they asked for input from a variety of industries, I'm sorry your requirements weren't met 100% and you feel aggrieved by that, but you aren't the only industries to need or use postcodes. And like I've said before, you can't please everyone 100%.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Loc8 can serve the 1% who need a code for other purposes.

Never knew the transport industry was 1%. You’re having laugh mate.

How have you been using loc8 for 3 or 4 years when no one puts them on their packages for delivery?

Do you look up the loc8 code from the address or how do you do it? So you need a computer?

You say you use GPS? Eircode will give you the Geo code of every package, yet you wont use it?

You can get a route planning app for your Phone that uses the camera to scan each package and then plans the route for you and gives you the list of postcodes in order they will be delivered so you can load the van accordingly, then you hit a button and it starts the route giving you turn by turn directions. This is called using modern technology to be as efficient as possible. But if you want to keep doing it the way you are doing it, then you are entitled to do that.

From what I can tell they asked for input from a variety of industries, I'm sorry your requirements weren't met 100% and you feel aggrieved by that, but you aren't the only industries to need or use postcodes. And like I've said before, you can't please everyone 100%.

You're being quite misleading when you say that. Eircode could have been designed in a hierarchical way so that it does everything that you can do with it now (or next week) but you wouldn't be forced to buy a route planning app, or what you call "modern technology" for the delivery sector, which lets face it, is probably the most important one with regards to postcodes.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

You're being quite misleading when you say that. Eircode could have been designed in a hierarchical way so that it does everything that you can do with it now (or next week) but you wouldn't be forced to buy a route planning app, or what you call "modern technology" for the delivery sector, which lets face it, is probably the most important one with regards to postcodes.

No, if it grouped and clustered houses it would lead to postcode snobbery, a major issue in the UK and we should learn from that and not make the same mistake.

There are postcodes in the UK that are blacklisted from banks and insurance companies because a few people in that code have committed fraud or crime and everyone in that code then gets blacklisted, a story not so long ago in the UK papers that a guy moved into a house and was refused a new bank account based on his postcode, there a lots of other examples of the draw backs of a cluster based code.
The reality is that a cluster based code was a good idea in the 70's, today, not such a good idea.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

No, if it grouped and clustered houses it would lead to postcode snobbery, a major issue in the UK and we should learn from that and not make the same mistake.

There are postcodes in the UK that are blacklisted from banks and insurance companies because a few people in that code have committed fraud or crime and everyone in that code then gets blacklisted, a story not so long ago in the UK papers that a guy moved into a house and was refused a new bank account based on his postcode, there a lots of other examples of the draw backs of a cluster based code.
The reality is that a cluster based code was a good idea in the 70's, today, not such a good idea.

That's scaremongering nonsense. Exactly the same would be as likely (or unlikely) with Eircode, if you buy/rent a house and the previous occupant was blacklisted.

Also, it's very naive to think that banks, insurance companies don't do profiling already. Of course they do it, but you just don't get to see the maps, because the information is proprietary.

The poster above has given you a real example of how a clustered or small area based code would be used by the delivery sector - today and not in the 1970's

ukoda

"plodder wrote: »

The poster above has given you a real example of how a clustered or small area based code would be used by the delivery sector - today and not in the 1970's

Actually they haven't. They claim to use loc8 but I fail to see how you can use loc8 because A. It won't show you what order to load a van. And B. Where do they get the loc8 code form? Because it's not widely used on packages

The poster above could be a loc8 code employee for all I know and that example could be entirely fictional. It doesn't seem to add up to me.

TheBustedFlush

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Extract from http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/programmes/2015/0710/713863-today-with-sean-o-rourke-friday-10-july-2015/?clipid=1926566

I could not listen to the clip but I presume that this is not the Brian O'Connell who was RTE's correspondent in London.

One telling quote: "Loc8 did not bid for the contract, either on its own or as part of a consortium."

He never even had the rattle in the pram. A number of other phrases come to mind here, the most polite being "hurler on the ditch".

That's interesting - particularly in the context of this bit from the Go Code story that's now going around online:

"There's been some commentary on the financial requirements for the tender in media and political circles. But it was actually very straightforward from our point of view. The financial requirement was that companies that would deliver more than 25% of the cost would need to have a turnover €40m - based on a multiple of the first year's likely cost to the State. GO Code's role was not affected by this, since the estimated cost by the State of code design and its technical web and associated applications would have been below this financial cost threshold. As far as we were concerned, other competitors/suppliers could take the same approach. So our task was to find a partner to meet these financial requirements."

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Actually they haven't. They claim to use loc8 but I fail to see how you can use loc8 because A. It won't show you what order to load a van. And B. Where do they get the loc8 code form? Because it's not widely used on packages

The poster above could be a loc8 code employee for all I know and that example could be entirely fictional. It doesn't seem to add up to me.

I came up with the same example myself several weeks ago. You don't have to prove that you work in the sector for it to make sense. If postcodes are hierarchical then deliveries can be grouped according to the same hierarchy just by looking at the code. It's not rocket science and neither should you have to invest in expensive IT systems to do something that shouldn't require it.

TheChizler

I don't see why they couldn't do a free lookup of the coordinates for a customer or address whenever they get a new one, as you get 15 free lookups a day, which should be enough for small companies who can't justify paying for access. They then feed those coordinates into whatever packing/route planning system they currently use.

If they want to be able to sort packages manually then ask customers for their address or loc8 code, it's not like these become redundant on launch of eircode.