National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Can you point to a document outlining the reasons for choosing that design? Something more than a few posts on twitter preferably...

I think there is only one poster here with an actual personal grievance over how the system unfolded. Regardless of that, I don't see any "hate being spewed" which is a bit extreme. Others are just just commenting on the design, given that it was presented as a fait-accompli and went contrary to their own requirements.

Not saying the hate is on this thread, I'm speaking generally, I.e. Twitter etc


In terms of documents, the blog above does cover the reasons for the chosen design, wouldn't call it official tho I guess

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Not saying the hate is on this thread, I'm speaking generally, I.e. Twitter etc


In terms of documents, the blog above does cover the reasons for the chosen design, wouldn't call it official tho I guess

Right, it was published after the design was decided. Some of it is reasonable enough. Obviously, Autoaddress have expertise in address matching etc and those technical details aren't controversial imo. But, the main design point is number 5 and what's offered here is pure conjecture (eg that people won't have a problem with the routing key areas, but they would have a problem with lower level areas). Presumably, they came to this conclusion by deciding to not publish area maps and basically rely on public ignorance of the boundaries (outside of Dublin city). But, we now have the FTAI saying they will publish the maps. Maps are useful and it was crazy to think that this information could be witheld. The pros/cons of the "post code lottery" issue required a much more in depth study than this blog post.

Also, who are Eircode to say that postcodes shouldn't be used for school districts? This is an important public policy issue that the state should have a view on. If the Dept of Education looked at it, and actually evaluated it, then at least we could be sure there was some rationale behind it. But, they didn't afaik.

dr.fuzzenstein

plodder wrote: »

Can you point to a document outlining the reasons for choosing that design? Something more than a few posts on twitter preferably...

I think there is only one poster here with an actual personal grievance over how the system unfolded. Regardless of that, I don't see any "hate being spewed" which is a bit extreme. Others are just just commenting on the design, given that it was presented as a fait-accompli and went contrary to their own requirements.

Well, the one thing that gets mentioned over and over again is the issue of one off housing.
Unfortunately planning in Ireland is "just fcuk it wherever you like", so the countryside is dotted with random houses with very little discernible pattern.
This brings with it issues with water, waste water, electricity, broadband, phone lines, ruination of the countryside, huge, cumbersome, crumbling road network, facilities being far away and hard to reach (with pedestrians and cyclists not having any facilities) and, you guessed it, addresses being hard to find.
It is obvious that was the main reason behind Eircode.
Strictly speaking, houses in town don't need an Eircode, since the address points directly at them, the main problem there is that no house has a house number, confuse the enemy and so on.

Trouwe Ier

A quote from Brian Lucey in the Irish Examiner dated Saturday, 11th April

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/features/joined-up-thinking-theres-a-plan-323442.html

"Eircode is a system that has been excoriated by everyone who will have to encounter it"


An extract from the Google Dictionary.

"excoriate
ɪkˈskɔːrɪeɪt,ɛks-/Submit
verb
1.
MEDICINE
damage or remove part of the surface of (the skin).
"the discharge is acrid and excoriates the skin of the nose"
synonyms: abrade, rub away, rub off, rub raw, scrape, scratch, chafe, damage; More
2.
formal
criticize (someone) severely.
"he excoriated the government for censorship""

Sam Russell

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

A quote from Brian Lucey in the Irish Examiner dated Saturday, 11th April

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/features/joined-up-thinking-theres-a-plan-323442.html

I like his use of Shambularity to describe officialdom in Ireland.

I suspect it is his variation on shambollic but multiple examples of it.

Trouwe Ier

Something I forgot to mention this morning: It looks like letters from statutory agencies will be coded "from the off" so.

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2015/04/11/top-5-eircode-design-challenges wrote:

Rapid Adoption.....
Autoaddress technology is being used to encode tens of millions of public sector address records to jump-start adoption. - See more at: https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2015/04/11/top-5-eircode-design-challenges#sthash.xwfh4PHW.dpuf

clewbays

The latest DPC annual report has this on Eircodes:

Last year’s annual report of the Commissioner highlighted our work with regard to the proposed “Eircode” national postcode system. Due to be rolled out in mid-2015, this provides a unique and randomised code for each household (that is, each individual house or apartment), and as such it represents a unique identifier for each household address. It is clear (particularly in light of the rate of single-occupancy households in Ireland) that the Eircode should be regarded as personal data, under the definition in the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003. While it is true that, on its own, Eircode is merely a unique identifier for an address and not a person, it is equally the case that in most contexts of its envisaged usage, a data controller will likely have additional information that would then allow identification of an individual person. The Data Protection Commissioner advised the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to underpin the Eircode project with specific primary legislation.

The Department accepted this advice and is now advancing the project with built-in legislative safeguards to protect privacy.

dr.fuzzenstein

The Swiss have no such worries:

http://www.fahrzeugindex.ch/

You want to find the owner of a car? Go on this website, give them a reg number and you will get a name and address. Obviously all done on the principle "If you have nothing to hide...", which would never, ever work in a million years in this country.
Of course you the Swiss are very polite, they would have to be if nearly every single house has a gun.

clewbays

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

The bill is in the Dáil tomorrow and in the Seanad on Thursday.

Question put: "That the Bill do now pass."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 34.

Carawaystick

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The Swiss have no such worries:

Of course you the Swiss are very polite, they would have to be if nearly every single house has a gun.

Of course the Swiss are also very sexist, Women only were enfranchised in '71, and they don't get guns, only the men. They are also not in the EU

recedite

Sam Russell wrote: »

I like his use of Shambularity to describe officialdom in Ireland.

April recedite agrees.

dr.fuzzenstein

Carawaystick wrote: »

Of course the Swiss are also very sexist, Women only were enfranchised in '71, and they don't get guns, only the men. They are also not in the EU

And Ireland certainly ain't Switzerland. Maybe Swaziland.

ukoda

The relenttless harassment by "get lost eircode / loc8code" on Twitter is actually appalling, they continuously post the same stuff and have made some very outrages claims, they make petty smart remarks to anyone who mentions eircode, they harass the hotels that the breakfast briefings are being held at and they are generally childish and doing themselves a lot of harm. It's sad to watch.

I have previously said I wish loc8code well and they could survive if they did some proper marketing as there could still be a place for them. But I've changed my mind, from watching their antics on Twitter I really do not think much of them as a company, and I will never use any of their services ever.

Trouwe Ier

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

The bill is in the Dáil tomorrow and in the Seanad on Thursday. .

Any updates?

SpaceTime

Wow - this thread is running for well over 6 years now !

Shows how utterly inompetent and slow moving our administration is when it wants to be.

Back guarantee 24 hours.
Post codes a few decades....

SpaceTime

SpaceTime wrote: »

Wow - this thread is running for well over 6 years now !

Shows how utterly inompetent and slow moving our administration is when it wants to be.

Back guarantee 24 hours.
Post codes a few decades....

Would have been even quicker if the letter had a postcode! :P

Trouwe Ier

I would second those comments about the tweets from that source. Tweets like that pasted below are perhaps not even worthy of comment at this stage. I don't even understand it!

GetLostEircodes 4:41pm via Twitter Web Client
@LimerickChamber @Eircode @ClarionLimerick Great to know who to blame in Limerick when #Eircode falls flat on its face Was there a free bar?

I read that anonymous e-mail purportedly sent to senators as well. I am very skeptical. The "West Wicklow" scenario hardly applies as the routing keys bear no resemblance to geographic areas. I'd like to know if that e-mail really was sent.

Deleted User wrote: »

Any updates?

I am presuming that the Seanad debate took place today between 13.15 and 15.15 as per the Oireachtas website. I can't find any report of proceedings on the website but they may well be posted later. If the Government had been defeated, I'm sure we would have heard about it by now,

Just looking at the "chronology of passage" as pasted below from the Oireachtas website, I'm wondering if all those hurdles have still to be jumped? If not, then perhaps it's just as simple as the Head of State taking out his fountain pen sometime between next Tuesday and Thursday and applying his moniker. I would imagine that the Minister would need to sign a Commencement Order as well.

Seanad Éireann

Second Stage
25/06/2015

Committee Stage
DDMMYY
List of Proposed Committee Stage Amendments
(Short Title) Bill 2015 as amended /in the Select Committee on XX /in committee by /Dáil Éireann (in PDF format)

Report and Final Stages
DDMMYY
List of Proposed Report Stage Amendments
(Short Title) Bill 2015 as passed by Dáil Éireann

Returned to first House (if applicable) Dáil/Seanad

Committee Stage (Delete the reference to 'Committee Stage' if the bill is being returned to Seanad)
DDMMYY
Report Stage
DDMMYY
List of Amendments made by /Dáil / Seanad Éireann
List of Proposed Amendments to Amendments made by Dáil/Seanad

Final Stage
(Short Title) Bill 2015 as passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas (in PDF format)

Enacted as Act Number NN of 2015
Date of Signature: DDMMYY
(Short Title Act) 2015 in PDF format
Official Translation

Trouwe Ier

From the official report.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 30 June 2015.

Acting Chairman (Senator Diarmuid Wilson): Information on Diarmuid Wilson Zoom on Diarmuid Wilson When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Maurice Cummins: Information on Maurice Cummins Zoom on Maurice Cummins At 2.30 p.m. next Tuesday.

The Seanad adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 June 2015

So if the President signs between five and seven days after both houses pass a bill, it is looking very very tight for 6th July.

ukoda

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

From the official report.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 30 June 2015.

Acting Chairman (Senator Diarmuid Wilson): Information on Diarmuid Wilson Zoom on Diarmuid Wilson When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Maurice Cummins: Information on Maurice Cummins Zoom on Maurice Cummins At 2.30 p.m. next Tuesday.

The Seanad adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 June 2015

So if the President signs between five and seven days after both houses pass a bill, it is looking very very tight for 6th July.

So it will be committee stage on Tuesday, then back to final stage another day tbc?

That is tight, they would have to pass the bill and pretty much get it sign by the president in like 3 days. Unlikely I'd imagine

Trouwe Ier

My interpretation of this is that the Leinster House process will need to have concluded and the bill presented by Wednesday 1st July at the very latest if the deadline of Monday 6th July is to be met but with my limited knowledge of the parliamentary process, I can't see this happening.

Quote from http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/guide.htm

Enactment

As a general rule, the President is required to sign a Bill presented to him or her for signature not earlier than the fifth day or later than the seventh day after it has been so presented (Art.25.2.1).

A Bill becomes law on the day it is signed by the President and, unless the contrary intention appears, comes into operation on that day (Art. 25.4.1). A Bill may, for example, contain provision for its commencement (in whole or in part) by way of Ministerial order.

clewbays

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Alex White):
Approximately 35% of premises have exactly the same address as another property. In both rural and urban areas, the same building can have multiple forms of address. Unlike other countries, we have no legal form of addressing in this country. For these reasons an area or hierarchical based code would simply not work in Ireland. It would not allow us to overcome any of these addressing difficulties. We have, therefore, adopted a unique approach tailored to meeting our unique addressing challenges.

Senator Mark Daly:
Data protection is one thing but secrecy is another. It is of concern that not one page of the 700 page contract establishing the Eircode system is available under the Freedom of Information Act.

Senator Tony Mulcahy:
We should be able to locate addresses more efficiently with this new system. In addition, medical emergency services where an ambulance has to be called will be able to respond faster, especially in rural areas. Unfortunately, there have been some cases in which ambulance crews not familiar with a rural area have got lost and arrived very late following a call-out.

Senator John Whelan:
As someone who lives in rural Ireland, I answer my door every day to people who have called to the wrong address. People living in the countryside often facilitate each other by accepting deliveries on behalf of their neighbours. This can be a nuisance if one is waiting on a delivery, however, because it can cause delays. On a more serious note, it can also delay emergency services. Ambulances and fire services are dispatched through a centralised system. The system is not without its shortcomings, one of which is the lack of local knowledge. I have first-hand experience of fire tenders and ambulances being directed to the wrong location because of the lack of a detailed address. Time delays can have dire consequences but I hope the new postcode system will be embraced by the emergency services and ensures a prompt and precise response to calls. This system can save lives if it is used effectively.

Senator Feargal Quinn:
The idea of a State e-mail address to cut down on paper and time is a somewhat related topic but in this day and age it is amazing that State bodies send letters when they could send official notification via e-mail. For instance, it would make much more sense for hospital appointments to be e-mailed to a verified e-mail address.
Every citizen in Ireland could have an official State e-mail address to facilitate communications from the tax office, the courts, the hospital or the post office, for example, without the need for a physical letter communication.

Senator David Cullinane:
There is a postcode system in place in Ireland which is called Loc8. The system is used by the Sat Nav company, Garmin, and by the HSE. The system was offered free of charge to the Government in 2013 but it was not availed of. I ask the Minister to explain why that was the case.
A number of bodies have raised serious issues about the Eircode system. The Freight Transport Association of Ireland has expressed concern about the system and pointed out that it is only a postal solution.
The Irish Fire and Emergency Services Association represents front-line emergency staff and it has expressed serious concern about Eircode. It has claimed that because the system does not identify small local areas it will be of little or no benefit to emergency call-outs that are along roads or in industrial or transport infrastructure.
Senator Gerard P. Craughwell:
That is wonderful. One always knows that it is time to go when I get on my feet. I usually sit here for hours waiting for people to finish their contribution so that I get a miserable few seconds to say something.
Eircode is a flawed concept and may end up, at best, unusable or unused by Irish citizens and, at worst, cost lives in cases where emergency services cannot locate a person due to the random selection of four characters of the seven character code.
The online industry will not use the codes because they are not compulsory. They have deemed them to have no use whatsoever and claim they will distract more than anything else.
Yesterday, a number of Senators - I certainly did - received communications from the Global Addresses Data Association. The title of the document the association sent to me was "When is a postcode not a postcode?" and it rubbished the entire postcode system that has been put forward.

Deputy Alex White:
I wish to query one of Senator Craughwell's remarks, which I disagree with and think is unfortunate. That is the notion that the Eircodes could cause a risk to life. Let us be fair-minded here. The Eircodes will do something additional to what is there at the moment. Even an individual who is strongly opposed to them must acknowledge that this is an add-on to what is already there.

dr.fuzzenstein

As soon as anyone says Eircode will cost lives, his entire argument is pretty much nil and void and can be completely and safely disregarded. Crackpots.

recedite

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell:
Yesterday, a number of Senators - I certainly did - received communications from the Global Addresses Data Association. The title of the document the association sent to me was "When is a postcode not a postcode?" and it rubbished the entire postcode system that has been put forward...

Never heard of them before, but here's the website. There's a pdf download of their report available on it. Its interesting to see an outside perspective on eircode

So, Ireland ends up with something that can’t really be called a postcode system, except in part for the first bit. The second bit appears to be a system for random scattering of unrelated letters and numbers, which aren’t even posted on buildings.
Sadly, it appears there were no address experts involved in the final design process. One is reminded of the old adage about a camel being a horse designed by a legislative committee.

Also an interesting snippet of info; they were apparently given a sneak preview by a Capita bigwig of some google map overlaid with eircodes...

To learn your neighbor’s “code”, get the ambulance to your aunt, or find the location of your cousin’s new apartment, you and the emergency services will have to consult the database, in map form, created for this purpose. Although not yet live, the beta version I was shown is a standard Google view with the “unique identifiers” printed on each building. This is what everyone, including emergency services, will use to find my aunt. This is what you’ll look for on your mobile when driving to your cousin’s new home. (This is what I’ll put outside on my aunt’s house, just to be sure…)
And with a digital device or other Internet-connected computerized tool, it should be an easy matter to punch in the UI and get a view of the destination on the map. But, forget trying to use a paper map, like the one tourists use or the Automobile Club gives out.

But unfortunately the google map view was not impressive enough to win them over. Finally they conclude...

we feel that a coherent self-explanatory geocode system that provided sequential functionality for route planning and location identification would have been far more desirable. In fact, Ireland would have been the first country in the world to install such a system.
But the choice was made, and is ready for implementation. Good luck, Ireland. You are known for luck! Unfortunately, a fair amount of it has been bad….

recedite

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As soon as anyone says Eircode will cost lives, his entire argument is pretty much nil and void and can be completely and safely disregarded. Crackpots.

What they mean by that is that eircode comes in instead of....
a coherent self-explanatory geocode system that provides sequential functionality for route planning and location identification. And without needing a connection to the internet, or a separate or remote database.

Now you can argue that by this time next year, paper maps will be consigned to museums, and everyone will be wearing google glasses on which they can clearly see the eircode labels superimposed on every building, as their normal view of reality. And nobody will ever have any trouble locating an address again. And anyone who thinks otherwise is a crackpot.

oscarBravo

As someone who has used a lot of maps for a lot of different reasons over a couple of decades, I think I can say hand on heart that I have never, ever seen a paper map with postcodes on it.

dr.fuzzenstein

oscarBravo wrote: »

As someone who has used a lot of maps for a lot of different reasons over a couple of decades, I think I can say hand on heart that I have never, ever seen a paper map with postcodes on it.

I love the con argument "You would have to have some kind of electronic device that somehow magically can connect to some kind of electronic, remote database and will have to have some kind of map on it, Jaysis, begosh and begorrah, whatever would such a wondrous contraption be called?
We won't see it in our lifetime!

plodder

oscarBravo wrote: »

As someone who has used a lot of maps for a lot of different reasons over a couple of decades, I think I can say hand on heart that I have never, ever seen a paper map with postcodes on it.

Obviously, there was no possibility to use them without postcodes and postcode areas heretofore, but ...
lest you think they don't actually exist allow me to google it.. They are widely used in the UK and other places where they have postcodes already.

I love the con argument "You would have to have some kind of electronic device that somehow magically can connect to some kind of electronic, remote database and will have to have some kind of map on it, Jaysis, begosh and begorrah, whatever would such a wondrous contraption be called?
We won't see it in our lifetime!

I think you're still missing the point. The purpose of a map is for sorting or routing, not navigation per-se.

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

Obviously, there was no possibility to use them without postcodes and postcode areas heretofore, but ...
lest you think they don't actually exist allow me to google it.. They are widely used in the UK and other places where they have postcodes already.

I guess that was inevitable.

Allow me to re-quote the phrase that prompted my post:

But, forget trying to use a paper map, like the one tourists use or the Automobile Club gives out.

Can you helpfully google me a source for a paper map, like the one tourists use or the Automobile Club (the what now?) gives out, with postcodes on it?

plodder

oscarBravo wrote: »

I guess that was inevitable.

Allow me to re-quote the phrase that prompted my post: Can you helpfully google me a source for a paper map, like the one tourists use or the Automobile Club (the what now?) gives out, with postcodes on it?

Maybe I'm missing your point, but why would tourists want maps with postcodes on them? If you have an address you want to reach, you enter it on a satnav, and you drive there. As I said to dr. Fuzzenstein, maps with postcodes are useful for different reasons.

or maybe I'm not being clear. There will be maps with Eircode routing key areas on them (the FTAI crowd want them). Maps with lower level areas would be much more useful though, if .....

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing your point, but why would tourists want maps with postcodes on them? If you have an address you want to reach, you enter it on a satnav, and you drive there. As I said to dr. Fuzzenstein, maps with postcodes are useful for different reasons.

Tourists do not tend to have satnavs. Nor do they wish to connect their phone to be subject to roaming charges. Nor do they all drive cars. Many do not speak English.

So why would they want a paper map, and why are such maps so freely available in other countries?