The Sub 3 Support Thread

healy1835

I said I'd review my block of training for Rotterdam/Limerick and post it up here so away we go...

14 Weeks included;

8 LR's: 2x30k, 4x32k, 1x34k & 1x36k.
I missed out on 1 long run due to the snow, but got the rest in. The paces were pretty conservative, with only two of the runs dipping below 5min kms. The fastest, and one I felt best during, was actually the 36k which I broke into three 12k sections (59/58/56 mins). I didn't include any MP miles or 'stuff' in my LRs really. I think going forward I will look to change that.

3 MLR's: 2 Halves and a 24k. These were nippier affairs, one the Thu before a 10k race, one snow related and one 10 days out from Rotterdam. Pace ranged from 4:40/km down to maybe 4:35/km.

Sessions: usually Wed/Sat, but one a week if it was the week of a tune up race. I didn't taper as such for tune ups but the race took the place of a session in those weeks.
I'll list the sessions in order and comment on the ones that I think I got the most out of.

*10x90secs w/90 rec (77/78 400m pace)
*6x300 + 6x150 Hills (balls to the wall in that one)
*6×1k on wet and mucky route @3:40ish pace
*5mile Tempo: 32mins - messed up prep, crap session)
*16x400m: (78-82 secs) (first 400m session for a while)
*6x1 Mile: watch failed, again tried to fit in session where it wasn't really a goer and paid the price)
*20x400m: (73-77 secs) (week of Trim 10 Mile. Flying)
*Fartlek: 15x60secs. (Salvaged a session from a mental day.)
*8x400m Hills: (Did it in a storm on a pretty exposed hill. Character building stuff
*8Mile Tempo @6:28/Mile (awful conditions, probably the biggest effort I put in an a session. Great day)
*5x2k (7:26 -7:18) great session.
*20x400m (71-77 secs) (week of half time trial)
*2Miles/5mins/1Mile/5mins/800m (first session after snow, rusty)
*Hills: 8x400m, 8x150m, 1x1mile (tough but satisfying)
*20x400m: Not on the track, all about 80secs.
*3x2 Mile (12:07, 12:20, 11:57) Sunday before Rotterdam. Plan was for 12:20's, possibly overcooked this)

Races:
10k: 39:08 Course at least 300m long, more of a solo time trial in reality. Served it's purpose.

Trim 10Mile: 62:26 Got a lot of confidence from this. Ran a 3 and a half min PB after a 500km month and felt that I had a good bit more in the tank that day.

Half Time Trial: 1:22:33 Made up for missing Bohermeen by getting paced around the PP. This was probably the most straightforward run I've ever put in. This was confirmation that training was going well.

Air Corps 5 Mile. 29:59 Just over 2 weeks out on very heavy legs on a tough course in tough conditions. Delighted with it!

Obviously this led to a disaster in Rotterdam and then I turned around for Limerick 4 weeks later which I've posted on here already.

Any thoughts or advice welcome
Johnny

squinn2912

Testosterscone wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

So Tuesday/Friday if running long on Saturday? Very tough. I find that doing the tempo run first doesn’t impact on the intervals but if I do it the other way about I don’t feel I get the quality in the tempo

Either that or if i have some quality in long run push it to sunday.

For me this is why have the extra day between sessions. Need to revise effort or volume  if you are not recovering between sessions. Each one should be tough but building from previous one. If you are struggling to recover you are not gettong bemefits from the sessions

Yea I did do some thinking about that. No matter what I did I found that the intervals impacted on the tempo so I switched them around and have found it fine. I also cut the pace of the intervals to just over 10k pace and have been feeling strong for my long run 2 days later.

squinn2912

healy1835 wrote: »

I said I'd review my block of training for Rotterdam/Limerick and post it up here so away we go...

14 Weeks included;

8 LR's: 2x30k, 4x32k, 1x34k & 1x36k.
I missed out on 1 long run due to the snow, but got the rest in. The paces were pretty conservative, with only two of the runs dipping below 5min kms. The fastest, and one I felt best during, was actually the 36k which I broke into three 12k sections (59/58/56 mins). I didn't include any MP miles or 'stuff' in my LRs really. I think going forward I will look to change that.

3 MLR's: 2 Halves and a 24k. These were nippier affairs, one the Thu before a 10k race, one snow related and one 10 days out from Rotterdam. Pace ranged from 4:40/km down to maybe 4:35/km.

Sessions: usually Wed/Sat, but one a week if it was the week of a tune up race. I didn't taper as such for tune ups but the race took the place of a session in those weeks.
I'll list the sessions in order and comment on the ones that I think  I got the most out of.

*10x90secs w/90 rec (77/78 400m pace)
*6x300 + 6x150 Hills (balls to the wall in that one)
*6×1k on wet and mucky route @3:40ish pace
*5mile Tempo: 32mins - messed up prep, crap session)
*16x400m: (78-82 secs) (first 400m session for a while)
*6x1 Mile: watch failed, again tried to fit in session where it wasn't really a goer and paid the price)
*20x400m: (73-77 secs) (week of Trim 10 Mile. Flying)
*Fartlek: 15x60secs. (Salvaged a session from a mental day.)
*8x400m Hills: (Did it in a storm on a pretty exposed hill. Character building stuff
*8Mile Tempo @6:28/Mile (awful conditions, probably the biggest effort I put in an a session. Great day)
*5x2k (7:26 -7:18) great session.
*20x400m (71-77 secs) (week of half time trial)
*2Miles/5mins/1Mile/5mins/800m (first session after snow, rusty)
*Hills: 8x400m, 8x150m, 1x1mile (tough but satisfying)
*20x400m: Not on the track, all about 80secs.
*3x2 Mile (12:07, 12:20, 11:57) Sunday before Rotterdam. Plan was for 12:20's, possibly overcooked this)

Races:
10k: 39:08 Course at least 300m long, more of a solo time trial in reality. Served it's purpose.

Trim 10Mile: 62:26 Got a lot of confidence from this. Ran a 3 and a half min PB after a 500km month and felt that I had a good bit more in the tank that day.

Half Time Trial: 1:22:33 Made up for missing Bohermeen by getting paced around the PP. This was probably the most straightforward run I've ever put in. This was confirmation that training was going well.

Air Corps 5 Mile. 29:59 Just over 2 weeks out on very heavy legs on a tough course in tough conditions. Delighted with it!

Obviously this led to a disaster in Rotterdam and then I turned around for Limerick 4 weeks later which I've posted on here already.

Any thoughts or advice welcome
Johnny

I can't wait to hear the reactions to this I'll be trying to glean some knowledge from the experts! Looks like brilliant and well considered and measured training. Well done.

OOnegative

healy1835 wrote: »

I said I'd review my block of training for Rotterdam/Limerick and post it up here so away we go...

14 Weeks included;

8 LR's: 2x30k, 4x32k, 1x34k & 1x36k.
I missed out on 1 long run due to the snow, but got the rest in. The paces were pretty conservative, with only two of the runs dipping below 5min kms. The fastest, and one I felt best during, was actually the 36k which I broke into three 12k sections (59/58/56 mins). I didn't include any MP miles or 'stuff' in my LRs really. I think going forward I will look to change that.

3 MLR's: 2 Halves and a 24k. These were nippier affairs, one the Thu before a 10k race, one snow related and one 10 days out from Rotterdam. Pace ranged from 4:40/km down to maybe 4:35/km.

Sessions: usually Wed/Sat, but one a week if it was the week of a tune up race. I didn't taper as such for tune ups but the race took the place of a session in those weeks.
I'll list the sessions in order and comment on the ones that I think I got the most out of.

*10x90secs w/90 rec (77/78 400m pace)
*6x300 + 6x150 Hills (balls to the wall in that one)
*6×1k on wet and mucky route @3:40ish pace
*5mile Tempo: 32mins - messed up prep, crap session)
*16x400m: (78-82 secs) (first 400m session for a while)
*6x1 Mile: watch failed, again tried to fit in session where it wasn't really a goer and paid the price)
*20x400m: (73-77 secs) (week of Trim 10 Mile. Flying)
*Fartlek: 15x60secs. (Salvaged a session from a mental day.)
*8x400m Hills: (Did it in a storm on a pretty exposed hill. Character building stuff
*8Mile Tempo @6:28/Mile (awful conditions, probably the biggest effort I put in an a session. Great day)
*5x2k (7:26 -7:18) great session.
*20x400m (71-77 secs) (week of half time trial)
*2Miles/5mins/1Mile/5mins/800m (first session after snow, rusty)
*Hills: 8x400m, 8x150m, 1x1mile (tough but satisfying)
*20x400m: Not on the track, all about 80secs.
*3x2 Mile (12:07, 12:20, 11:57) Sunday before Rotterdam. Plan was for 12:20's, possibly overcooked this)

Races:
10k: 39:08 Course at least 300m long, more of a solo time trial in reality. Served it's purpose.

Trim 10Mile: 62:26 Got a lot of confidence from this. Ran a 3 and a half min PB after a 500km month and felt that I had a good bit more in the tank that day.

Half Time Trial: 1:22:33 Made up for missing Bohermeen by getting paced around the PP. This was probably the most straightforward run I've ever put in. This was confirmation that training was going well.

Air Corps 5 Mile. 29:59 Just over 2 weeks out on very heavy legs on a tough course in tough conditions. Delighted with it!

Obviously this led to a disaster in Rotterdam and then I turned around for Limerick 4 weeks later which I've posted on here already.

Any thoughts or advice welcome
Johnny

Did you follow a specific plan or was it made out to suit you? Can’t remember if I asked you that in your log. What weight were you?

dna_leri

shotgunmcos wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I've looked at numerous online marathon programmes and also have had a couple made for me to follow. Every one seems to follow the pattern that Sat/Sun are the long runs, mon, wed & fri are easy/recovery and tues, thurs are the speed workouts, taking one or two days off per week as well. All seems grand but I want to ask about the Tues/Thurs end of things? They all have prescribed that you do interval type training on the Tuesday and tempo or MP on the Thursday. I much prefer to do it the other way around but I'm curious as to why the programmes usually tend to go with this order. I'm probably over thinking it all but would welcome any thoughts on it.

Intervals closer to 5-10k pace LT- VO2 range and tempo closer to MP-LT range?  Keeping the harder of the 2 further from the long run was usually my own logic

OOnegative wrote: »

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Intervals closer to 5-10k pace LT- VO2 range and tempo closer to MP-LT range?  Keeping the harder of the 2 further from the long run was usually my own logic

Second this, LT/VO2 stuff takes longer to recover from than Tempo.

Why do VO2 stuff (5K-10K pace) during marathon training at all ?
I'd like to understand the logic behind it.

Itziger

Why do VO2 stuff (5K-10K pace) during marathon training at all ?
I'd like to understand the logic behind it.
I think this is an important question that more people should ask themselves. I have this feeling that the fast stuff is perhaps suited to elites who don't have huge differences between their paces anyway. I mean some of these lads are doing 28minute 10k splits in marathons!!
But for those of us who are traipsing around at 3 hour pace......... Do we really need to be doing 400 and 800 metre reps in marathon training? I tend to do Half marathon pace when I feel the need to do some snappier stuff. 

squinn2912

Yep this is something I think about too. For this programme I didn't do anything smaller than 1 mile repeats. In my pre-programme I did some 5k tempos and a few 400s and 800s to get some speed back into the legs quickly but this left me susceptible to niggles so I ditched it for the longer stuff.
Last night was the last tempo - 8 miles at 6:22 so half marathon pace or slightly quicker. I'm planning mile repeats tomorrow but I'm not 100% sure I should do that session so close. Race is Sunday week.

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yep this is something I think about too. For this programme I didn't do anything smaller than 1 mile repeats. In my pre-programme I did some 5k tempos and a few 400s and 800s to get some speed back into the legs quickly but this left me susceptible to niggles so I ditched it for the longer stuff.
Last night was the last tempo - 8 miles at 6:22 so half marathon pace or slightly quicker. I'm planning mile repeats tomorrow but I'm not 100% sure I should do that session so close. Race is Sunday week.

Looking back at my last session before my sub 3 I notice it consisted of 2k W/U, 2k MP+ a few seconds, 6k@MP, 3k@faster than MP but not quite HM pace and 2k C/D, done 10 days before race day. At the time I think that was a good session and it might work again. Thing is though, I did a marathon 11 days ago, a 2x10k @M pace 4 days ago and now I'm kinda wondering if the last 'session' should be lighter than the above as I'm feeling a bit heavy and lethargic. It's one of those decisions you have to make, isn't it. No-one else can really make that call. Good luck whatever you decide.

squinn2912

Itziger wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yep this is something I think about too. For this programme I didn't do anything smaller than 1 mile repeats. In my pre-programme I did some 5k tempos and a few 400s and 800s to get some speed back into the legs quickly but this left me susceptible to niggles so I ditched it for the longer stuff.
Last night was the last tempo - 8 miles at 6:22 so half marathon pace or slightly quicker. I'm planning mile repeats tomorrow but I'm not 100% sure I should do that session so close. Race is Sunday week.

Looking back at my last session before my sub 3 I notice it consisted of 2k W/U, 2k MP+ a few seconds, 6k@MP, 3k@faster than MP but not quite HM pace and 2k C/D, done 10 days before race day. At the time I think that was a good session and it might work again. Thing is though, I did a marathon 11 days ago, a 2x10k @M pace 4 days ago and now I'm kinda wondering if the last 'session' should be lighter than the above as I'm feeling a bit heavy and lethargic. It's one of those decisions you have to make, isn't it. No-one else can really make that call. Good luck whatever you decide.

Sounds like a very tough session but I guess it’s only about a mile longer than my tempo. 4 x 1 mile with a mile WU/CD then almost all easy running likely go out mon, tues & thurs next week

noelearly

Itziger wrote: »

Hey Quinn and Kerry, I don't want to bung up this thread with Half stuff but here goes.... For speed I'd do some 10k rep stuff, up to 6x1mile. The main Half specifics sessions would be building up to 3x15 or 17 mins at H pace with a couple of mins recovery between and one I really like, 15 mins @Half pace + 3 or 4x1k@ 10k pace + 15 mins @H again. I start that with 12mins and build up to the 15. The reps in the middle, 2 or 3 the first day and 4 at the end....... So nothing too mad. A decent long run of 20+ kms and a few easy days. That's about it I think. Don't really understand fellas saying they couldn't do 1.22 / 1.21 but we're all different. Beat of luck and pick a bloody flat course!!

There you go with your Kms again...

squinn2912

I'm with you on that I can't work in km at all, Luddite that I am.

squinn2912

4 x 1 mile done this morning early. 6 mile run in all. I did them at around 6:07 with just under 2 min recovery in-between. Felt ok. That's the last run with effort included anyhow. This time last week I would have done the marathon that evening, now I'm feeling nervous and wondering about weather! Marathons do funny things to you!

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

4 x 1 mile done this morning early. 6 mile run in all. I did them at around 6:07 with just under 2 min recovery in-between. Felt ok. That's the last run with effort included anyhow. This time last week I would have done the marathon that evening, now I'm feeling nervous and wondering about weather! Marathons do funny things to you!

Taper maddness.Squinn.

squinn2912

Yep I got a head full of it now and I’ve only just started it!!

Itziger

To the person who pm'd me and to whom I tried, in vain I think, to respond....... Messages seem to be having a bit of trouble here this afternoon. We might need to start a Half Marathon Sessions thread!

squinn2912

Get going on that!

kerrylad1

Itziger wrote: »

To the person who pm'd me and to whom I tried, in vain I think, to respond....... Messages seem to be having a bit of trouble here this afternoon. We might need to start a Half Marathon Sessions thread!

Yes itziger,that reply is blank.Maybe my questions were so stupid,I left you speechless.😂

rooneyjm

Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0

Total..........67.............93.5

Week 2 of 18 complete, 6 days running. 12 x 400m @ 6.00 min pace on Thursday, 1.28 average. Week 3 sees the start of the MP work, 6 miles. Might try to get to Dunboyne on Tuesday night for BHAA 5 mile. That will replace the speed session (8 x 600m)

squinn2912

rooneyjm wrote: »

Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0

Total..........67.............93.5

Week 2 of 18 complete, 6 days running. 12 x 400m @ 6.00 min pace on Thursday, 1.28 average. Week 3 sees the start of the MP work, 6 miles. Might try to get to Dunboyne on Tuesday night for BHAA 5 mile. That will replace the speed session (8 x 600m)

What plan are you following? Looks like you’re going hard

shotgunmcos

healy1835 wrote: »

I said I'd review my block of training for Rotterdam/Limerick and post it up here so away we go...

14 Weeks included;

8 LR's: 2x30k, 4x32k, 1x34k & 1x36k.
I missed out on 1 long run due to the snow, but got the rest in. The paces were pretty conservative, with only two of the runs dipping below 5min kms. The fastest, and one I felt best during, was actually the 36k which I broke into three 12k sections (59/58/56 mins). I didn't include any MP miles or 'stuff' in my LRs really. I think going forward I will look to change that.

3 MLR's: 2 Halves and a 24k. These were nippier affairs, one the Thu before a 10k race, one snow related and one 10 days out from Rotterdam. Pace ranged from 4:40/km down to maybe 4:35/km.

Sessions: usually Wed/Sat, but one a week if it was the week of a tune up race. I didn't taper as such for tune ups but the race took the place of a session in those weeks.
I'll list the sessions in order and comment on the ones that I think I got the most out of.

*10x90secs w/90 rec (77/78 400m pace)
*6x300 + 6x150 Hills (balls to the wall in that one)
*6k on wet and mucky route @3:40ish pace
*5mile Tempo: 32mins - messed up prep, crap session)
*16x400m: (78-82 secs) (first 400m session for a while)
*6x1 Mile: watch failed, again tried to fit in session where it wasn't really a goer and paid the price)
*20x400m: (73-77 secs) (week of Trim 10 Mile. Flying)
*Fartlek: 15x60secs. (Salvaged a session from a mental day.)
*8x400m Hills: (Did it in a storm on a pretty exposed hill. Character building stuff
*8Mile Tempo @6:28/Mile (awful conditions, probably the biggest effort I put in an a session. Great day)
*5x2k (7:26 -7:18) great session.
*20x400m (71-77 secs) (week of half time trial)
*2Miles/5mins/1Mile/5mins/800m (first session after snow, rusty)
*Hills: 8x400m, 8x150m, 1x1mile (tough but satisfying)
*20x400m: Not on the track, all about 80secs.
*3x2 Mile (12:07, 12:20, 11:57) Sunday before Rotterdam. Plan was for 12:20's, possibly overcooked this)

Races:
10k: 39:08 Course at least 300m long, more of a solo time trial in reality. Served it's purpose.

Trim 10Mile: 62:26 Got a lot of confidence from this. Ran a 3 and a half min PB after a 500km month and felt that I had a good bit more in the tank that day.

Half Time Trial: 1:22:33 Made up for missing Bohermeen by getting paced around the PP. This was probably the most straightforward run I've ever put in. This was confirmation that training was going well.

Air Corps 5 Mile. 29:59 Just over 2 weeks out on very heavy legs on a tough course in tough conditions. Delighted with it!

Obviously this led to a disaster in Rotterdam and then I turned around for Limerick 4 weeks later which I've posted on here already.

Any thoughts or advice welcome
Johnny

Given your last marathon was a 2:59:xx It makes sense. All those quality session plus the LRs and the weekly volume in your log you put in each week.

One thing that stands out to me is your short interval speed. 20x400 at 71-77 secs is some session! With that kind of speed and mental tenacity to see it through, the 10k and 5 mile look a little soft? Also probably an indicator that your recent sub3 is scratching the surface...

Were the LRs all easy aerobic kms? If so, why no MP stuff? How is recovery generally after long and hard sessions? Which would break your body down first, more volume or more intensity?

squinn2912

Any last bits of advice for taper week folks? Light 6 mile run yesterday and my watch froze at the end. Should get a replacement ok tomorrow so going to leave the run tonight and do one tomorrow instead. I usually do 6 miles with 2 at goal pace but that will depend on the heat. Then an easy 4 on Thursday and rest up. That's the plan anyhow.

thomas anderson.

squinn2912 wrote: »

Any last bits of advice for taper week folks? Light 6 mile run yesterday and my watch froze at the end. Should get a replacement ok tomorrow so going to leave the run tonight and do one tomorrow instead. I usually do 6 miles with 2 at goal pace but that will depend on the heat. Then an easy 4 on Thursday and rest up. That's the plan anyhow.

try not to eat everything in sight......

My taper week will include :
Sun : 15m pyramid run
Mon : Pilates
Tues : Spin 45min easy
Wed : 8m easy (maybe some fartlek)
Thurs : 5m hills easy
Fri : Rest
Sat : 2m easy
Sun : Race

All I want to do is eat bread

EC1000

squinn2912 wrote: »

Any last bits of advice for taper week folks? Light 6 mile run yesterday and my watch froze at the end. Should get a replacement ok tomorrow so going to leave the run tonight and do one tomorrow instead. I usually do 6 miles with 2 at goal pace but that will depend on the heat. Then an easy 4 on Thursday and rest up. That's the plan anyhow.

Which race are you doing? Best of luck!

squinn2912

EC1000 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Any last bits of advice for taper week folks? Light 6 mile run yesterday and my watch froze at the end. Should get a replacement ok tomorrow so going to leave the run tonight and do one tomorrow instead. I usually do 6 miles with 2 at goal pace but that will depend on the heat. Then an easy 4 on Thursday and rest up. That's the plan anyhow.

Which race are you doing? Best of luck!

Derry Marathon on Sunday! Thanks! Nerves are kicking in now, just trying not to be out in the sun too much and eat sensibly.

squinn2912

EC1000 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Any last bits of advice for taper week folks? Light 6 mile run yesterday and my watch froze at the end. Should get a replacement ok tomorrow so going to leave the run tonight and do one tomorrow instead. I usually do 6 miles with 2 at goal pace but that will depend on the heat. Then an easy 4 on Thursday and rest up. That's the plan anyhow.

Which race are you doing? Best of luck!

Derry Marathon on Sunday! Thanks! Nerves are kicking in now, just trying not to be out in the sun too much and eat sensibly.

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Any last bits of advice for taper week folks? Light 6 mile run yesterday and my watch froze at the end. Should get a replacement ok tomorrow so going to leave the run tonight and do one tomorrow instead. I usually do 6 miles with 2 at goal pace but that will depend on the heat. Then an easy 4 on Thursday and rest up. That's the plan anyhow.

Above sounds good to me.Hopefully the temperature drops a little for Sunday's Marathon.That heat is unreal at the moment

squinn2912

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Any last bits of advice for taper week folks? Light 6 mile run yesterday and my watch froze at the end. Should get a replacement ok tomorrow so going to leave the run tonight and do one tomorrow instead. I usually do 6 miles with 2 at goal pace but that will depend on the heat. Then an easy 4 on Thursday and rest up. That's the plan anyhow.

Above sounds good to me.Hopefully the temperature drops a little for Sunday's Marathon.That heat is unreal at the moment

Thanks KL. Yea I might have gone a bit more at MP within my 6 mile run had it been a bit cooler but that heat is very energy sapping. The weather in that area is meant to break before Sunday - it'll still be hot but hopefully a bit more civil. The race begins at 8.30 rather than 9.00 which is another small mercy!

squinn2912

Hard reporting back when it doesn’t work out. Derry just had far too much heat and hills for me. If anyone is interested in the gory details I’ll get to that later on I’m too exhausted and feeling sick now. 3:12:28. Way Off

noelearly

Well at least you finished. I had my first DNF today, feel a bit disgusted at myself. I had a poor 2 week build up throat infection which cleared up quickly and a glute problem which I didn't think I would able to even start during the week. At the first sign of pain I dropped out at the end of centre park road just before the relay changeover. I was still on target for the 3 but if truth be told I doubt I would have made it.

Disappointing but sure we move on

thomas anderson.

Squeaked out a 2:58 in Cork today. Fair to say that the wheels came off for the last 5 miles.

Have my excuses of picking up a cold/heat exhaustion etc.

I had forgotten how hard the Cork course was.

Fair play squinn291noelearly, you can't win them all. Lessons to be learned