The Sub 3 Support Thread

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Got another question for you guys. Is it best to do the long run in the morning or evening? Yesterday we did an evening one to suit my training partner but I’d have preferred morning

I don't think it matters squinn,as long as you get it done.I'm a morning runner myself,hate running in the evening,I do not know why,but it always feels harder.

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

Got another question for you guys. Is it best to do the long run in the morning or evening? Yesterday we did an evening one to suit my training partner but I’d have preferred morning

Doesn't matter one bit just get it done. I prefer mornings myself but can't always get away I've often started my long run straight after work at 8.30. That's a ball breaker but great for mental prep... nothing like jumping into a ditch at 11 o clock at night trying to avoid cars.

thomas anderson.

squinn2912 wrote: »

Got another question for you guys. Is it best to do the long run in the morning or evening? Yesterday we did an evening one to suit my training partner but I’d have preferred morning

I like to go mid afternoon, especially during the summer when it's at its warmest. I find that it helps you to coordinate your hydration and gets you used to the heat

Run and Jump

squinn2912 wrote: »

Got another question for you guys. Is it best to do the long run in the morning or evening? Yesterday we did an evening one to suit my training partner but I’d have preferred morning

If it's for your first, and if it suits your schedule, it's good to do the long run at the same time of day as the marathon itself (or for the time your wave starts) to help prep mentally and practically. It's the same idea as doing your long run in your race-day gear, with the same wake-up time and pre-race meal i.e. breakfast.

If that doesn't suit, then any time as long as you get the bloody thing done!

and still ricky villa

I used to be a 6am starter but that got knocked on the head when the child arrived.
I'd prefer it to later in the day and a habit I'd love to get back into. As everyone says though, there's a joy in making sure you get it done!

On the long run being slow article; it's the kind of reminder I always need. I did my first Daniels plan assuming the LSR pace was a misprint and ran them at a mad pace.
Older, more experienced but none the wiser I still need reeling in every now and then

squinn2912

YOU talking advanced marathoning? Where in the book does it suggest long run pace?
In that article it works it out from 5k pace butbto be honest I think that’s nonsense

and still ricky villa

squinn2912 wrote: »

YOU talking advanced marathoning? Where in the book does it suggest long run pace?
In that article it works it out from 5k pace butbto be honest I think that’s nonsense

Daniels Running Formula
I followed the paces based off the VDOT tables but assumed I knew better

shotgunmcos

Just started back running this week but giving it 12 months for a go.

Not fit enough to contemplate a plan or train off pace. I'm base focused. My question is what would consider a milestone to start training by pace? As I get fit to train I presume my pace will naturally lower for my aerobic heart rate cap. I thought being able to do 10k at PMP in that zone might (coupled with volume milestones) be a decent assessment that the base is right? I've found that hitting a certain 10k time is not necessarily an indicator that the base is there.

The plan I'm looking at is roughly my own version of the P&D 55-70 layered on top of the base programme

MrMacPhisto

squinn2912 wrote: »

YOU talking advanced marathoning? Where in the book does it suggest long run pace?
In that article it works it out from 5k pace butbto be honest I think that’s nonsense

Chapter 1- Elements of Training- Pg 15-16

P&D suggests a LR pace ranging between +10-20% of MP.

The key line is this I think, "The appropriate pace for a specific long run depends on the purpose of that run within your training program."

I believe somebody posted a link to a post by Krusty earlier in the thread which sums up the LR very well. There is no magic number. Its all relative to the person, type of runner, experience, outcome objective. The book provides excellent knowledge and general understanding but finding the correct LR pace is a personal thing in my opinion.

squinn2912

Thanks very much. Yep I was reading those pages last night while having an epsom bath. I think it depends on training during the week too. I’m through it now anyhow and that’s the last big dog of a run. One more hard week to make it. Planning 10 mile MP -20 secs tomorrow and 5x1600m on Thursday then cut down.

shotgunmcos

Forgot that it was customary to knock on the door of this super thread with intentions when posting in this thread. So a quick note from my transferred log below.

Goal for reference is sub3 at Limerick 2019. I'm about 8kg over weight and have run 600km in the last 2 years. Hence my reason for aiming for 12 months away!

From the log
Quick note on running. Was at a christening party at a mates over the weekend and met a lad I knew from mountain running years ago. Turns out he is aiming for sub3 at Limerick next year too and lives around the corner from me. Training partner for long runs and tempo stuff sort of sorted so it won't all be on my own. That's a good thing!

Another thing is I went over my training diary from 2011. I was focused on my first Ironman and had a very good winter behind me. My approach to marathons that year was lunacy.
1. You don't need to do a practice marathon for an Ironman. There is one at the end of it which will do!
2. I did 3 marathons altogether, 1 surprise and 2 failures. My long run pace and general aerobic pace was generally much too fast. I did too much volume at PMP.

The Marathons.
1. Connemara on 10 April. 3:00:20. Shocked at that. I just ran "easy" barely above aerobic zone to go through the half in 1:27 ahead of the mass half marathon start. Was simply enjoying the remoteness of it until the big hills at the end. It dawned on me I might make sub 3 but I met a wind on that hill and didn't make it. Still a huge unexpected PB though
2. Limerick 19 days later. I went out with a 2:56 and 2:58 pace band on my wrist. Ran with 2 friends of mine (inc the eventual Ladies winner) and we passed half way in 1:25. It was madness. I crashed at 18m and dropped out at 21m afraid I'd do real damage to my Ironman A goal.
3. Berlin 6 weeks after the hardest race I'd ever done to that point. A 10 hour Ironman with a 3:59 marathon on a river bank in unshaded 35 degree heat! I felt good and loved the atmosphere in Berlin. On 2 hours I cramped badly in both quads. Couldn't get rid of them and came in 3:15 dejected and angry with myself.

So many mistakes. The Marathons were done in the midst of lots of cycling and swimming (I cycled from Galway to Limerick the day after Connemara!). I was light and in good shape but never gave any of those marathons proper attention. The risks I carried into each one was stupid. No recovery plan and it was just crazy to do them in between triathlons. In 2012 I came back an got PBs for 10k and half marathon but left it at that. Over 5 years later I'm targeting a marathon again but I think I have my head screwed on this time...

Itziger

Welcome aboard, Shotgun. Looks like you were a bit of a mad bastid back then alright!! Or maybe just young. 
What's the 10k and Half times?

squinn2912

GOod goal, leaving lots of time. As long as you take it step by step I reckon you’re gonna SMASH it

shotgunmcos

Cheers guys. Probably a bit over zealous alright. Probably would have executed the Ironman plan that I expected too if didn't do the marathons. Lessons learned. Cramping though, has always been an issue.

10k is 38:09 done the day after a freezing 4hr bike
Half Marathon 1:23:40 done properly and rested.

Obviously those are marks again I'll target. However when I did the 3:00:20 at Connemara the 10k was 38:40 and half marathon 1:25:58. So considering I tap into that base again, hitting my PBs or better would be good indicators.

Older and a spare tyre to lose though which are new factors along with 2 toddlers so the plan needs to be flexible. A challenge to balance the sessions with recovery. My only window to get a longish run done this weekend is Saturday morning early. Miss it and I miss my window.

and still ricky villa

Opinions please

I'm in low volume base training so a bit of time for tweaking the plan.
I'm doing the 2Q Jack Daniels plan in the long run for Valencia in December.
The question is, I plan one day of 10 miles at E pace (2 days of Q as per the plan and 3 more days of up to 8 miles E)
Normally 10 miles during lunch isn't a problem but work has changed so what is the opinion on splitting this morning and afternoon?

Same benefit? Better? Worse?

Duanington

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Opinions please

I'm in low volume base training so a bit of time for tweaking the plan.
I'm doing the 2Q Jack Daniels plan in the long run for Valencia in December.
The question is, I plan one day of 10 miles at E pace (2 days of Q as per the plan and 3 more days of up to 8 miles E)
Normally 10 miles during lunch isn't a problem but work has changed so what is the opinion on splitting this morning and afternoon?

Same benefit? Better? Worse?

I suspect the 10 mile in one go is marginally better in terms of what you get from it but to be honest, it looks like the 2 quality days are the main focus of the week.

Ultimately it comes down to what you can get done though, is getting it done before work an option? a longer than nirmal runmute after work?
If breaking it into 2 is the only option you have, go for it and don't worry.

I can't see an issue with breaking the run up into morning and afternoon, it'll certainly be an easier day when you're in the depths of the plan and have the small bit of recovery there

rooneyjm

Starting 18 week plan to Berlin today using the Hanson Method. Worked well enough for DCM last year, target was 3.10 and got 3.10.17 with a 60-90sec toilet stop.

Running away since January, 40 to 45 miles most weeks. Recent 5k pb, 18.40. A few holidays to navigate during the summer but going to attempt sub 3

squinn2912

Just took a look at a Hanson advanced plan. Good miles and lots of MP running and MP-10s but is that not a little safe?

Safiri

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just took a look at a Hanson advanced plan. Good miles and lots of MP running and MP-10s but is that not a little safe?

I mean this in the best intentions possible and have held back a lot in actually posting this over the last year or so as I don't really know you even in boards terms but for someone who is chronically injured most of the time; it's probably not too safe.

I think you would benefit far more from consistency in your training rather than intensity. I feel your penchant for a lot of hard running is your downfall right now as it seems like you pick up a lot of injuries and end up missing time and regressing. As a fellow inconsistent runner, I know the effect that missing training has on fitness; you constantly end up back at square one again and again. So much so that last year, my coach would only let me run easy mileage with one workout a week(usually a 20 minute tempo) and that was my training; I put together 7-8 months of just that simple training and Pb'd in the 5k and half marathon. The reason I managed that wasn't down to any huge workouts or mega mileage or anything, it was all about having a consistent spell without any injuries or missing big spells of training.

Now, I'm not saying that you should do what I done but you have to get more consistent to get the gains and when you are suffering as many injuries as you are; you have to look at what you are doing in training to cause them because something has to be up. Maybe it's time to reel in those big workouts and hard running and focus on building a consistent base that you constantly add onto over a few cycles?

Apoligies if that came across as blunt but I thought it was something that could benefit you in the long-term.

squinn2912

Safiri wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just took a look at a Hanson advanced plan. Good miles and lots of MP running and MP-10s but is that not a little safe?

I mean this in the best intentions possible and have held back a lot in actually posting this over the last year or so as I don't really know you even in boards terms but for someone who is chronically injured most of the time; it's probably not too safe.

I think you would benefit far more from consistency in your training rather than intensity. I feel your penchant for a lot of hard running is your downfall right now as it seems like you pick up a lot of injuries and end up missing time and regressing. As a fellow inconsistent runner, I know the effect that missing training has on fitness; you constantly end up back at square one again and again. So much so that last year, my coach would only let me run easy mileage with one workout a week(usually a 20 minute tempo) and that was my training; I put together 7-8 months of just that simple training and Pb'd in the 5k and half marathon. The reason I managed that wasn't down to any huge workouts or mega mileage or anything, it was all about having a consistent spell without any injuries or missing big spells of training.

Now, I'm not saying that you should do what I done but you have to get more consistent to get the gains and when you are suffering as many injuries as you are; you have to look at what you are doing in training to cause them because something has to be up. Maybe it's time to reel in those big workouts and hard running and focus on building a consistent base that you constantly add onto over a few cycles?

Apoligies if that came across as blunt but I thought it was something that could benefit you in the long-term.

Thanks very much for the full and frank reply. I'm not annoyed at all and there is no need to apologize. Chronically injured is a stretch. 2017 didn't go very well but that was due to verruca problems - nothing about training intensity. When I got going again in late autumn I was a bit over-eager and got caught out, resulting in nothing much more than a 1 week niggle. The New Year was going very well (I PB'ed in a hilly, snowy half marathon) and what I think was a combination of a farming strain and the cold weather resulted in me losing 3 weeks of training. Again, not really to do with intensity. At that time I was usually doing 1 quality workout per week and adding in a few MP miles during my long run which was 10-12 miles. 
I had signed up for Derry Marathon before I was injured so when I came back in late March I decided I'd do one week to get going again and then increase the mileage and intensity as far as I could stretch it. I 'chanced' things once when I did intervals 2 days after a 10k race and came through it, then again in doing a relay of the Belfast Marathon with only one recovery day after the big 20 miler. Again, I came through it. I'm very happy with how I've managed my body since coming back, I feel unfortunate to have lost those 3 weeks or so but injury is about the biggest guarantee in sport and it will happen.
I'm very appreciative that you took the time to send me your thoughts and I do think you have a point. I just don't agree fully. I have noticed lately that the online programmes referred to on here often seem easyish in terms of the fast stuff, definitely not for the long stuff for me anyhow, so that is something I will consider over the summer for sure.

BeepBeep67

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Opinions please

I'm in low volume base training so a bit of time for tweaking the plan.
I'm doing the 2Q Jack Daniels plan in the long run for Valencia in December.
The question is, I plan one day of 10 miles at E pace (2 days of Q as per the plan and 3 more days of up to 8 miles E)
Normally 10 miles during lunch isn't a problem but work has changed so what is the opinion on splitting this morning and afternoon?

Same benefit? Better? Worse?

I think it depends on your own strengths and weaknesses, do you consider yourself endurance based or more speedy but lacking endurance.
If it's the later the medium length midweek run can be an important component of a marathon plan, building up to 15-16 miles, 3 out of 4 weeks on tired legs can be of huge importance and the maximum benefit comes from doing it in a single run.

MrMacPhisto

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just took a look at a Hanson advanced plan. Good miles and lots of MP running and MP-10s but is that not a little safe?

What do you mean by safe?

and still ricky villa

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I think it depends on your own strengths and weaknesses, do you consider yourself endurance based or more speedy but lacking endurance.
If it's the later the medium length midweek run can be an important component of a marathon plan, building up to 15-16 miles, 3 out of 4 weeks on tired legs can be of huge importance and the maximum benefit comes from doing it in a single run.

Thanks, yes I think the fact I'm uncomfortable splitting it points to where I'm happiest and feel strongest. Evening's are an option I haven't explored yet. I'll have to seek permission first

squinn2912

MrMacPhisto wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just took a look at a Hanson advanced plan. Good miles and lots of MP running and MP-10s but is that not a little safe?

What do you mean by safe?

I just expected the interval and fartlek running to be a good bit quicker than MP rather than 10 secs. Just asking opinions not criticizing anyone

MrMacPhisto

squinn2912 wrote: »

I just expected the interval and fartlek running to be a good bit quicker than MP rather than 10 secs. Just asking opinions not criticizing anyone

The first ten weeks has plenty of 5k-10k speed sessions along with MP stuff. The final 8 weeks has the MP-10 longer intervals (ranging from 1mile to 3 mile intervals). This roughly equates to HM pace give or take a couple of seconds.

I think most people who have followed the plan would agree its not soft. In my opinion its pretty heavy on session or speedwork given the amount of MP miles you will also be running. The long runs are pretty pacy too at around MP +10%. Throwing in a few strides or surges on the easy days could benefit you if you fancy extra speedwork.

For me its a training plan that has worked well.

Safiri

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thanks very much for the full and frank reply. I'm not annoyed at all and there is no need to apologize. Chronically injured is a stretch. 2017 didn't go very well but that was due to verruca problems - nothing about training intensity. When I got going again in late autumn I was a bit over-eager and got caught out, resulting in nothing much more than a 1 week niggle. The New Year was going very well (I PB'ed in a hilly, snowy half marathon) and what I think was a combination of a farming strain and the cold weather resulted in me losing 3 weeks of training. Again, not really to do with intensity. At that time I was usually doing 1 quality workout per week and adding in a few MP miles during my long run which was 10-12 miles. 
I had signed up for Derry Marathon before I was injured so when I came back in late March I decided I'd do one week to get going again and then increase the mileage and intensity as far as I could stretch it. I 'chanced' things once when I did intervals 2 days after a 10k race and came through it, then again in doing a relay of the Belfast Marathon with only one recovery day after the big 20 miler. Again, I came through it. I'm very happy with how I've managed my body since coming back, I feel unfortunate to have lost those 3 weeks or so but injury is about the biggest guarantee in sport and it will happen.
I'm very appreciative that you took the time to send me your thoughts and I do think you have a point. I just don't agree fully. I have noticed lately that the online programmes referred to on here often seem easyish in terms of the fast stuff, definitely not for the long stuff for me anyhow, so that is something I will consider over the summer for sure.

Fair enough, I didn't see the post above you either so thought this was just a question you were asking for yourself. I thought you had way more injuries as well.

On your actual question- 10 seconds faster than MP isn't really safe for those intervals. The reason why is what you are trying to achieve with the workout. You know the way you might have 4 miles or intervals @LT to target lactate threshold? Well this example of the workouts in hansons are made to target AeT(aerobic threshold) which would be roughly 5-10 seconds faster than MP. The workout is made to improve this threshold. I often do them and they are called aerobic tempos.

Not every interval workout or workout in general has to be long or even hard to create a stimulus. A top-tier elite runner might do 4x3k or 3x5k aerobic tempo on a Tuesday for instance as it's all about where it fits in on the plan and what kind of stimulus you want to create. There's a common misunderstanding out there that an interval workout means running really hard all the time when it's not true at all.

rooneyjm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just took a look at a Hanson advanced plan. Good miles and lots of MP running and MP-10s but is that not a little safe?

The plan receives criticism for not having any 20 milers but I have to say I felt strong right up to 24 miles, pace slipped by 10 sec for the last 2 miles.
They emphasize the importance of placing the system under continuous stress without over reaching to a point of injury. Maybe that’s why it’s only MP -10 for strength sessions, stress but not enough to jeopardize the next few days.

Some of the MP 10milers felt very difficult for DCM and I didn’t think id make it too much further. No races on the plan which I think is a draw back but again I don’t think they want you racing hard half marathons and taking away from your following week

squinn2912

That post was an education! Thanks for clearing it up. I used to be very injury prone and then somehow got onto the sub3 trail without much of a programme at all. I found a way of training hard twice per week and easy otherwise, then stuck with that type of programme. This time round I got stung at an inopportune time but have stretched the miles and so I’ll see how that goes in 2 weeks!
You make a god point and I’ll do more reading for the next one in autumn

squinn2912

rooneyjm wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just took a look at a Hanson advanced plan. Good miles and lots of MP running and MP-10s but is that not a little safe?

The plan receives criticism for not having any 20 milers but I have to say I felt strong right up to 24 miles, pace slipped by 10 sec for the last 2 miles.
They emphasize the importance of placing the system under continuous stress without over reaching to a point of injury. Maybe that’s why it’s only MP -10 for strength sessions, stress but not enough to jeopardize the next few days.

Some of the MP 10milers felt very difficult for DCM and I didn’t think id make it too much further. No races on the plan which I think is a draw back but again I don’t think they want you racing hard half marathons and taking away from your following week

See above! Another great post. I’ll be honest I glanced at the harder quality stuff then posted my question. Stupid really not to look at it all

kerrylad1

Best of luck with the taper squinn,do not do anything crazy,and your in with a great shot of another sub 3.