The Sub 3 Support Thread

noelearly

and still ricky villa wrote: »

I'd recommend Hanson's for a change of pace.
I used it for Rotterdam last year and apart from my various whinges on other threads about my bad luck that weekend I'd never felt stronger.
PBs were dropping in training the whole time too.
I take great confidence from long runs so extended the prescribed 16 milers to 20/22 And as I had more than the 18 weeks I extended the midweek MP run to about 14 miles

Does that not against what the plan is all about. The 16 long mile is what was drawing me towards it. Speed is my main problem so was hoping it would improve that.

and still ricky villa

noelearly wrote: »

Does that not against what the plan is all about. The 16 long mile is what was drawing me towards it. Speed is my main problem so was hoping it would improve that.

Yes, the emphasis is on only needing a maximum of 16 miles for your long run.
The theory is through accumulated fatigue you are hitting the long run on tired legs and so it's preparing you for the last 16 miles, not the first 18-22 per other plans.
I extended the long runs only on a couple of occasions purely and honestly because I need the confidence of 20 miles plus under my belt.
I could have been grand on 16 but didn't feel wiped out by 22 either. The benefit for me was psychological. Being an oddball

Duanington

squinn2912 wrote: »

You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air!
It was Derry but yea you're right. Lots of little things went against me and I couldn't afford any of them. I thought I was in better shape than I was too. I will work on the consistency but I need to think about my target. I don't want to 'just' go for a sub3 but I do need a contingency plan if something's not right like weather. My initial thinking is to plan, aim and train for a goal marathon pace that would make me happy. On race day then I think I'm better running the first half very conservatively and pushing myself from about 16 on. That's hard to do but it's better than blowing up and looking for pacers to blame. 
For the 'can control' things I'm disgusted with myself. For the 'can't' I feel a little hard done by but the only thing to do is put it right.

Of course it was Derry ! My bad!!

squinn2912

healy1835 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea it's hard to argue with that. Being realistic and humble are always good qualities. Sometimes saying or typing that you'll smash this or that is part of the mental preparation - if you don't see it happening then how is it meant to? I hope I didn't make you wince too much. I don't really tend to think very deeply when posting about marathon preparation. It's usually just numbers and reactions to them. I suppose being down is much worse than any subsequent kick. I'm taking the positives out of this. I made it to the start and finish lines. I made mistakes but nothing glaring. I backed myself and came up a bit short, not an awful lot. I'm looking forward to getting at it again.

The fact you're itching to go again is important. You know a couple of areas that you can work on straight away.....ever thought of putting a log up on these here parts? (Apologies if you have one already....)

Thank you! No I don’t even know how to go about doing a log!

squinn2912

Duanington wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air!
It was Derry but yea you're right. Lots of little things went against me and I couldn't afford any of them. I thought I was in better shape than I was too. I will work on the consistency but I need to think about my target. I don't want to 'just' go for a sub3 but I do need a contingency plan if something's not right like weather. My initial thinking is to plan, aim and train for a goal marathon pace that would make me happy. On race day then I think I'm better running the first half very conservatively and pushing myself from about 16 on. That's hard to do but it's better than blowing up and looking for pacers to blame. 
For the 'can control' things I'm disgusted with myself. For the 'can't' I feel a little hard done by but the only thing to do is put it right.

Of course it was Derry ! My bad!!

Haha no worries! I don’t think it’ll be derry again!

Testosterscone

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thank you! No I don’t even know how to go about doing a log!

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1139

Start a thread, record your training. Can be a good way of holding yourself accountable as well as getting feedback specific to your training

shotgunmcos

Have any of you mixed the P&D and Hansons approach?

I have the P&D 55-70 plan done out (attached if anyone wants a copy or doesn't have the book)

When I think back to my marathon PB my own approach (with coach) was more like Hanson cumulative fatigue and maxing LRs out at 2 hours. That was by chance more than design as I was training for triathlon so I general carried heavy cycling legs into long runs or "sessions of substance".

I do remember feeling super fresh (even better than tapered fresh) on the morning of the marathon and had to consciously reign it back in for the first half.

squinn2912

Nicely made out wee table that. How did your race go?

squinn2912

Testosterscone wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thank you! No I don’t even know how to go about doing a log!

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1139

Start a thread, record your training. Can be a good way of holding yourself accountable as well as getting feedback specific to your training

Thank you. I took a look at a few of those on that link. Do they work better than posting up on this general thread?

shotgunmcos

squinn2912 wrote: »

Nicely made out wee table that. How did your race go?

I didn't use this plan then. But a more Hanson type method got me 3:00:20 at Connemara. I don't think I'd use this P&D plan to the letter. It will need tweaks depending on the shape I'm in and the routine I can execute

Testosterscone

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thank you. I took a look at a few of those on that link. Do they work better than posting up on this general thread?

Depends on what you want to get out of it.

Tracking your training can hold you accountable (amazing how the idea of random strangers on d'internet can keep you motivated to get out some times haha)

It can also make it easier to look back and spot any glaring issues in your approach. In this sense it's like an old school training diary. Tend to use it for this myself and works quite well for looking back on and learning from mistakes (the caveat is that its as useful here as you are honest in it)

Having your training up can also give posters context to enable them to offer advice that is more specific to you than general questions in these threads.

squinn2912

Yea I get that - what you put in you get out and if that's BS well then…
Can you link your own log? I took a quick trawl but didn't see it.

Testosterscone

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea I get that - what you put in you get out and if that's BS well then…
Can you link your own log? I took a quick trawl but didn't see it.

Here is a list of all the sub 3 (or target sub 3s) logs I can think of


Krusty Clown 2.30 PB
DublinRunner 2.33 PB
Zico10 2.35 PB
Mine 2.43 PB
RayCun 2.56 PB
AuldManKing 2.58 PB
Duanington 2.58 PB

A few also from posters here popping up but should provide some ideas and reading material

RayCun

squinn2912

BRILLIANT. That's a bit of bedtime reading for me while I gently get back into it. First run of the new me is tonight or tomorrow morning depending on how the reseeding is going! Thanks for taking the time to post that up.

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

5 days is practically a life time in terms of how far down the pages you fall :eek:

Sorted now

rooneyjm

Itziger wrote: »

I'm thinking of having a go at Hansons just for a change, keep me fresh. What's the story with the Long Runs? I see there is some talk of doing a couple 'depleted' and some others at certain paces and/or fast finish. I'm a bit confused though...... If I take it on I'll be asking loads of questions as I don't have the book.

@ highland cow & itziger

2nd time using the plan. 3.10.17 in DCM 2017 with a 60 to 90 sec toilet stop, target 3.10. Stuck to the plan, didn’t extend any of the runs. I added the mileage up as I went an I left approx 200k of easy miles behind me over the 18 weeks ( see Challenging Times Tread on the Tri section if you are really bored). Mostly warm up and cool down miles, hoping not to leave as many behind this time.

Have to say I was worried going into it with having only done 27k as my longest run but felt strong in the second half when others were fading.

Don’t think the book mentions fast finish long runs I certainly didn’t do any. They do recommend a pace but I don’t think it’s to aggressive. To be honest I just went by feel for the long runs, 8.00 to 8.15 miles.

When they mention depleted its more that it’s after 10 miles on Saturday. So the long run feels like the last 16 rather than the first.

adrian522

Testosterscone wrote: »

Here is a list of all the sub 3 (or target sub 3s) logs I can think of


Krusty Clown 2.30 PB
DublinRunner 2.33 PB
Zico10 2.35 PB
Mine 2.43 PB
RayCun 2.56 PB
AuldManKing 2.58 PB
Duanington 2.58 PB

A few also from posters here popping up but should provide some ideas and reading material

Overpronators log from London a few years ago is very good also.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88619501

Went from 3:26 > 2:58

OOnegative

Jebuz who no longer posts, but his log ‘Run run run run run....’(can’t link on phone) is another good one.

healy1835

here's my own log

healy1835

OOnegative wrote: »

Did you follow a specific plan or was it made out to suit you? Can’t remember if I asked you that in your log. What weight were you?

The plan was put together by a good mate and re-evaluated every 3/4 weeks or so. He's not a coach as such but he would have been an elite runner so I'd be well looked after Was probably in and about 67kgs in the two marathons give or take. That's about 6 kgs lighter than Berlin last September......I was probably about 76+kgs in Dublin 2016

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Given your last marathon was a 2:59:xx It makes sense. All those quality session plus the LRs and the weekly volume in your log you put in each week.

One thing that stands out to me is your short interval speed. 20x400 at 71-77 secs is some session! With that kind of speed and mental tenacity to see it through, the 10k and 5 mile look a little soft? Also probably an indicator that your recent sub3 is scratching the surface...

Were the LRs all easy aerobic kms? If so, why no MP stuff? How is recovery generally after long and hard sessions? Which would break your body down first, more volume or more intensity?

I've only really raced 10ks and 5milers as part of a marathon block. This is gonna change this month as it happens....I've also never actually ran a 5k race so i'm curious to see how I fare out. I'm pretty sure it might take a couple of attempts to figure some stuff out

Some long runs were progressive but yeah most were Easy runs. No MP stuff, I suppose my mate is still a bit conscious that I've only been running couple of years and didn't want to complicate the longer runs too much (i'm sort of guessing here). He also puts a lot of emphasis on racing and the faster sessions. But he's intimated that this will change somewhat for Dublin..... I followed all the Wednesday sessions with an easy Thursday and the Saturday sessions with a Long Run. As I've got fitter and faster I've found the biggest difference is my recovery after a hard session or a long run.

yaboya1

I found this thread a huge help too.
Went from 3:34 to 2:59 in a year, which is all documented in my own log from the beginning.
On the phone, so can't post a link, but it's called "A Slow Journey To Faster Times".

healy1835

I really scoured your log over the last year or so.....thank you Mr Yaboya Sir

OOnegative

healy1835 wrote: »

The plan was put together by a good mate and re-evaluated every 3/4 weeks or so. He's not a coach as such but he would have been an elite runner so I'd be well looked after Was probably in and about 67kgs in the two marathons give or take. That's about 6 kgs lighter than Berlin last September......I was probably about 76+kgs in Dublin 2016.

67kgs!!! Not a hope of me ever getting to that weight. Currently 79kgs and hope to be below 75kgs come Köln.

Itziger

OOnegative wrote: »

healy1835 wrote: »

The plan was put together by a good mate and re-evaluated every 3/4 weeks or so. He's not a coach as such but he would have been an elite runner so I'd be well looked after Was probably in and about 67kgs in the two marathons give or take. That's about 6 kgs lighter than Berlin last September......I was probably about 76+kgs in Dublin 2016.

67kgs!!! Not a hope of me ever getting to that weight. Currently 79kgs and hope to be below 75kgs come Köln.

You didn't look anywhere near 79k in those horrible sweaty pics. Is this weight-sand-bagging????

OOnegative

Itziger wrote: »

You didn't look anywhere near 79k in those horrible sweaty pics. Is this weight-sand-bagging????

Knew you’d like them!!!! No honestly that’s what I am at the minute, sand bags and all.

Itziger

So you must be taller than me then, which wouldn't be that difficult tbh. I'm about 67/68 kgs although I've more or less stopped weighing myself.

shotgunmcos

OOnegative wrote: »

67kgs!!! Not a hope of me ever getting to that weight. Currently 79kgs and hope to be below 75kgs come Köln.

+1 67kg!!! I think I was about 15, years old last time I was that weight. I'm 82 down from 89 at Christmas and will realistically target 77kg. Each kg gets progressively harder to lose.

OOnegative

Itziger wrote: »

So you must be taller than me then, which wouldn't be that difficult tbh. I'm about 67/68 kgs although I've more or less stopped weighing myself.

6ft 1inches, 75kgs was my lightest ever weight pre Barcelona last year.

MrMacPhisto

The weight thing is interesting. I am around 5ft8 (1.73m) and tend to be between 65.5-67kgs during most periods of the year. My last two marathons I have got to the start line at about 64.2kg. This seems to be my race weight. I don't aim for weight loss at all, but I guess I focus on clean eating and lack of beer in last 4-5weeks of my training block.