The Sub 3 Support Thread

squinn2912

WEll done pal delighted for you!

Itziger

I've been trawling through the Stockholm results and searching (almost completely without hope) for the elusive neg split.  Elusive given the high temperatures and the second half being a bit tougher in terms of climbs. Lo and behold I found one.

And what a one it is!!!!!!! The worst neg split in the history of marathon running?

Half 1.30.02 Finish 3.00.01

Itziger

Jeez, the guy just gave me kudos on Strava! A Norwegian bloke. Hi Jorgen, if you're reading this.

Singer

Itziger wrote: »

And what a one it is!!!!!!! The worst neg split in the history of marathon running?

Half 1.30.02 Finish 3.00.01

Great find, hilarious and tragic at the same time.

Itziger

Singer wrote: »

Itziger wrote: »

And what a one it is!!!!!!! The worst neg split in the history of marathon running?

Half 1.30.02 Finish 3.00.01

Great find, hilarious and tragic at the same time.

The guy responded to me on Strava. Says he was looking for a sub 3 to get a decent pen in Berlin where he hopes to target sub 2.40 !!!!

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Hard reporting back when it doesn’t work out. Derry just had far too much heat and hills for me. If anyone is interested in the gory details I’ll get to that later on I’m too exhausted and feeling sick now. 3:12:28. Way Off

Look man,don't fret about missing the sub 3,on a normal day,with normal conditions,you would be a dead cert.

squinn2912

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Hard reporting back when it doesn’t work out. Derry just had far too much heat and hills for me. If anyone is interested in the gory details I’ll get to that later on I’m too exhausted and feeling sick now. 3:12:28. Way Off

Look man,don't fret about missing the sub 3,on a normal day,with normal conditions,you would be a dead cert.

Thanks lad yea I think so too. Went out a little hard be interesting to see how I’d have gone had I held it back a bit. Would make me reconsider doing another spring/summer one

squinn2912

Right so here's a bit more information - if nothing else then it's a bit of what to avoid doing.
Stayed in the TravelLodge in the middle of town - big mistake. I barely slept with a mixture of noise and heat. Didn't help at all.
Injury and losing out March left me playing catch up. I feel my training was very good when I got to it but 4-6 weeks of quality just isn't enough when coming back from longer term injuries and issues.
Heat - Christ it was a furnace, in miles 1-4 I was sweating buckets and gasping a bit. I warmed up fine but it was a shock how difficult things were. The day got hotter and was so muggy.
Course - Not too many hills but they were very sharp. 7-9 was all climb and then 17-18 another climb. Sapped all my energy. I didn't know the course either so that didn't help.
Gels - tried it before but I took 4 power bar gels and they had my stomach in ribbons. I puked at the end. Not sure if it was all mixed up with the heat or not. I feel 4 may have been excessive.
Fast start - I ran at 6:45-6:50 for 7 miles and then still had 45 seconds at half way to play with. I didn't trust my watch and stuck to the pacers. I know I've been unfairly critical of pacers before but I didn't follow my own advice. I should have let them go.
I looked at my watch and I seem to have been in zone 5 for heart rate for 2 hours so that's comforting to know that I really clung on as long as I could. At mile 22 I was still at sub3 pace but the wheels came off, the engine blew and the hand break jammed! I did all I could but then when I slowed to a 10 min mile I was thinking of my own safety more than anything.
I am bitterly disappointed byt as I say. I got home ok and that's the most important thing. I'll reconsider summer time marathons for future as the heat was cruel. Had I paced a bit easier I might have made it to 24 or so before really feeling it and might have had just enough to get home in time. Learning experience and good base training for Dublin. Sub3 Number 6 is just delayed in the post, it's coming. 
Thanks to all of you guys for the advice all year.

Testosterscone

squinn2912 wrote: »

Right so here's a bit more information - if nothing else then it's a bit of what to avoid doing.
Stayed in the TravelLodge in the middle of town - big mistake. I barely slept with a mixture of noise and heat. Didn't help at all.
Injury and losing out March left me playing catch up. I feel my training was very good when I got to it but 4-6 weeks of quality just isn't enough when coming back from longer term injuries and issues.
Heat - Christ it was a furnace, in miles 1-4 I was sweating buckets and gasping a bit. I warmed up fine but it was a shock how difficult things were. The day got hotter and was so muggy.
Course - Not too many hills but they were very sharp. 7-9 was all climb and then 17-18 another climb. Sapped all my energy. I didn't know the course either so that didn't help.
Gels - tried it before but I took 4 power bar gels and they had my stomach in ribbons. I puked at the end. Not sure if it was all mixed up with the heat or not. I feel 4 may have been excessive.
Fast start - I ran at 6:45-6:50 for 7 miles and then still had 45 seconds at half way to play with. I didn't trust my watch and stuck to the pacers. I know I've been unfairly critical of pacers before but I didn't follow my own advice. I should have let them go.
I looked at my watch and I seem to have been in zone 5 for heart rate for 2 hours so that's comforting to know that I really clung on as long as I could. At mile 22 I was still at sub3 pace but the wheels came off, the engine blew and the hand break jammed! I did all I could but then when I slowed to a 10 min mile I was thinking of my own safety more than anything.
I am bitterly disappointed byt as I say. I got home ok and that's the most important thing. I'll reconsider summer time marathons for future as the heat was cruel. Had I paced a bit easier I might have made it to 24 or so before really feeling it and might have had just enough to get home in time. Learning experience and good base training for Dublin. Sub3 Number 6 is just delayed in the post, it's coming. 
Thanks to all of you guys for the advice all year.

A little reminder

squinn2912 wrote: »

My intention is to give it a lash as a bit of a free hit and if I can break the sub3 again I’ll count it very successful. Then I go to the drawing board and get a plan made for me to give Dublin a proper go and we'll see how far I can take it. Flattered you think 2:50 is a realistic aim. I’ll have to go and do it now. Thanks for your advice.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Learn from it and build from it. You had a less than ideal build up with the long break. Build up next time cautiously and aim for focus of consistency and Derry will stand to you. Don't have to re invent the wheel simply keep tipping away

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Right so here's a bit more information - if nothing else then it's a bit of what to avoid doing.
Stayed in the TravelLodge in the middle of town - big mistake. I barely slept with a mixture of noise and heat. Didn't help at all.
Injury and losing out March left me playing catch up. I feel my training was very good when I got to it but 4-6 weeks of quality just isn't enough when coming back from longer term injuries and issues.
Heat - Christ it was a furnace, in miles 1-4 I was sweating buckets and gasping a bit. I warmed up fine but it was a shock how difficult things were. The day got hotter and was so muggy.
Course - Not too many hills but they were very sharp. 7-9 was all climb and then 17-18 another climb. Sapped all my energy. I didn't know the course either so that didn't help.
Gels - tried it before but I took 4 power bar gels and they had my stomach in ribbons. I puked at the end. Not sure if it was all mixed up with the heat or not. I feel 4 may have been excessive.
Fast start - I ran at 6:45-6:50 for 7 miles and then still had 45 seconds at half way to play with. I didn't trust my watch and stuck to the pacers. I know I've been unfairly critical of pacers before but I didn't follow my own advice. I should have let them go.
I looked at my watch and I seem to have been in zone 5 for heart rate for 2 hours so that's comforting to know that I really clung on as long as I could. At mile 22 I was still at sub3 pace but the wheels came off, the engine blew and the hand break jammed! I did all I could but then when I slowed to a 10 min mile I was thinking of my own safety more than anything.
I am bitterly disappointed byt as I say. I got home ok and that's the most important thing. I'll reconsider summer time marathons for future as the heat was cruel. Had I paced a bit easier I might have made it to 24 or so before really feeling it and might have had just enough to get home in time. Learning experience and good base training for Dublin. Sub3 Number 6 is just delayed in the post, it's coming. 
Thanks to all of you guys for the advice all year.

Good honest report ,squinn.I think us Irish are just not suited to the heat,I did my last long hard m.p run in snow,3 week's before Manchester marathon,and then a few weeks later I was running in 20 odd degrees in Limerick marathon.That heat nearly killed me.Relax,for a few weeks,get back into it,and give Dublin,a good lash.

Itziger

Lads, there's an old Irish expression that goes, "Never kick a man unless he's down" and so I feel I have to write the following here.
I wince in embarrassment when I see someone say, "I'll smash that time if the race goes to plan". The only thing worse is the posters going along with that sentiment.
And when it's a 42.2 km race in question..... Well, what can I say? 
Be honest in your predictions, don't sandbag for the sake of it or to look good afterwards, but a little humility in the face of the marathon is never a bad thing.
I'm not looking to slag anyone off with this, just a reminder to all who sail in the good ship Sub 3.

Testosterscone

Itziger wrote: »

Lads, there's an old Irish expression that goes, "Never kick a man unless he's down" and so I feel I have to write the following here.
I wince in embarrassment when I see someone say, "I'll smash that time if the race goes to plan". The only thing worse is the posters going along with that sentiment.
And when it's a 42.2 km race in question..... Well, what can I say? 
Be honest in your predictions, don't sandbag for the sake of it or to look good afterwards, but a little humility in the face of the marathon is never a bad thing.
I'm not looking to slag anyone off with this, just a reminder to all who sail in the good ship Sub 3.

Agreed, a missed target is only a positive thing if you can learn from your mistakes. We all make them but not everyone is honest enough to accept that.

Good advice and sentiments are only as good as how they are interpretted.

noelearly

Itziger wrote: »

Lads, there's an old Irish expression that goes, "Never kick a man unless he's down" and so I feel I have to write the following here.
I wince in embarrassment when I see someone say, "I'll smash that time if the race goes to plan". The only thing worse is the posters going along with that sentiment.
And when it's a 42.2 km race in question..... Well, what can I say? 
Be honest in your predictions, don't sandbag for the sake of it or to look good afterwards, but a little humility in the face of the marathon is never a bad thing.
I'm not looking to slag anyone off with this, just a reminder to all who sail in the good ship Sub 3.

Amen to that

squinn2912

Yea it's hard to argue with that. Being realistic and humble are always good qualities. Sometimes saying or typing that you'll smash this or that is part of the mental preparation - if you don't see it happening then how is it meant to? I hope I didn't make you wince too much. I don't really tend to think very deeply when posting about marathon preparation. It's usually just numbers and reactions to them. I suppose being down is much worse than any subsequent kick. I'm taking the positives out of this. I made it to the start and finish lines. I made mistakes but nothing glaring. I backed myself and came up a bit short, not an awful lot. I'm looking forward to getting at it again.

Testosterscone

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea it's hard to argue with that. Being realistic and humble are always good qualities. Sometimes saying or typing that you'll smash this or that is part of the mental preparation - if you don't see it happening then how is it meant to? I hope I didn't make you wince too much. I don't really tend to think very deeply when posting about marathon preparation. It's usually just numbers and reactions to them. I suppose being down is much worse than any subsequent kick. I'm taking the positives out of this. I made it to the start and finish lines. I made mistakes but nothing glaring. I backed myself and came up a bit short, not an awful lot. I'm looking forward to getting at it again.

Biggest bits of advice I can give you for Dublin

- Consistency and lots of aerobic miles You need to be hitting 50-60 miles week after week, extended breaks are gonna eat away at that aerobic base

- Slow those Tempo's down. MP-20 sec might be fine for shorter tempos (5k-4 mile) but I would say you are overcooking those longer tempo's which can actually negative affect your endurance ironically.

shotgunmcos

Testosterscone wrote: »

I would say you are overcooking those longer tempo's which can actually negative affect your endurance ironically.

How do you define tempo? OBLA, LT? HR Zone? and what is the breaking point where it negatively affects your base endurance?

Testosterscone

shotgunmcos wrote: »

How do you define tempo? OBLA, LT? HR Zone? and what is the breaking point where it negatively affects your base endurance?

My definition of tempo here is based off the OP's description (8 mile @ MP-20 pace) This was effectively 8 miles at HM pace off a 50 mpw base which is compromising recovery and overall volume within a weak. This is more than likely why there is a major drop off between HM and Marathon times

In recent times I have strayed away from catch all term as even scientific terminology here is lacking as an accurate account for external factors. Handy as they can be I think we need to get away from trying to quantify physiologically when external factors as well as mentality play just as important a factor in both training and race performance.

shotgunmcos

Testosterscone wrote: »

My definition of tempo here is based off the OP's description (8 mile @ MP-20 pace) This was effectively 8 miles at HM pace off a 50 mpw base which is compromising recovery and overall volume within a weak. This is more than likely why there is a major drop off between HM and Marathon times

In recent times I have strayed away from catch all term as even scientific terminology here is lacking as an accurate account for external factors. Handy as they can be I think we need to get away from trying to quantify physiologically when external factors as well as mentality play just as important a factor in both training and race performance.

Cheers and glad you said that about other variables. Been a few years since I've been around this Forum and I'm starting to wonder if anyone is enjoying running!

Testosterscone

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Cheers and glad you said that about other variables. Been a few years since I've been around this Forum and I'm starting to wonder if anyone is enjoying running!

Times have changed. Facebook is for sunshine and Rainbows. Boards is the seedy scientific underworld of running where we get down to nitty gritty :P

MY BAD

With the exception of Dublin, what autumn early winter marathons would be good to target a sub 3? Ideally a fairly flat course. I wouldn't mind travelling to Europe either. Manchester/Rotterdam would be perfect for a spring marathon.

Testosterscone

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

With the exception of Dublin, what autumn early winter marathons would be good to target a sub 3? Ideally a fairly flat course. I wouldn't mind travelling to Europe either. Manchester/Rotterdam would be perfect for a spring marathon.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107191395&postcount=10

All flat fast courses with postive feedback

OOnegative

Testosterscone wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107191395&postcount=10

All flat fast courses with postive feedback

Add Valencia and San Sebastián to that list also.

MY BAD

Perfect. Thanks lads.

rooneyjm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5

Total..........113...........145.0

Week 3 of 18 complete, 6 days running. 8 x 600m @ 5.50min pace on Wednesday, target 6.00min pace. 6 mile tempo, MP, Average 6.45 Sat. 12.5 miles Sunday

Duanington

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea it's hard to argue with that. Being realistic and humble are always good qualities. Sometimes saying or typing that you'll smash this or that is part of the mental preparation - if you don't see it happening then how is it meant to? I hope I didn't make you wince too much. I don't really tend to think very deeply when posting about marathon preparation. It's usually just numbers and reactions to them. I suppose being down is much worse than any subsequent kick. I'm taking the positives out of this. I made it to the start and finish lines. I made mistakes but nothing glaring. I backed myself and came up a bit short, not an awful lot. I'm looking forward to getting at it again.

Fair play to you Squinn - lots of lessons to take from this one, the trick now is to actually take them and use them! ( we're all guilty of leaving lessons in the past as time ticks by).

It's been said already but lots and lots of consistency between now and Dublin will see you progress no doubt, the weather in Cork wouldn't have helped for sure and there are other factors you mentioned which would have had an effect of course but it takes a lot of things to go right over the course of 26.2 miles for the perfect race to happen.
Some things you can't control, some things you can - the training between now and October falls into the "can control" category and is the most important factor in determining that outcome.

Best of luck with it, looking forward to seeing how it goes

squinn2912

Duanington wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea it's hard to argue with that. Being realistic and humble are always good qualities. Sometimes saying or typing that you'll smash this or that is part of the mental preparation - if you don't see it happening then how is it meant to? I hope I didn't make you wince too much. I don't really tend to think very deeply when posting about marathon preparation. It's usually just numbers and reactions to them. I suppose being down is much worse than any subsequent kick. I'm taking the positives out of this. I made it to the start and finish lines. I made mistakes but nothing glaring. I backed myself and came up a bit short, not an awful lot. I'm looking forward to getting at it again.

Fair play to you Squinn - lots of lessons to take from this one, the trick now is to actually take them and use them! ( we're all guilty of leaving lessons in the past as time ticks by).

It's been said already but lots and lots of consistency between now and Dublin will see you progress no doubt, the weather in Cork wouldn't have helped for sure and there are other factors you mentioned which would have had an effect of course but it takes a lot of things to go right over the course of 26.2 miles for the perfect race to happen.
Some things you can't control, some things you can - the training between now and October falls into the "can control" category and is the most important factor in determining that outcome.

Best of luck with it, looking forward to seeing how it goes

You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air!
It was Derry but yea you're right. Lots of little things went against me and I couldn't afford any of them. I thought I was in better shape than I was too. I will work on the consistency but I need to think about my target. I don't want to 'just' go for a sub3 but I do need a contingency plan if something's not right like weather. My initial thinking is to plan, aim and train for a goal marathon pace that would make me happy. On race day then I think I'm better running the first half very conservatively and pushing myself from about 16 on. That's hard to do but it's better than blowing up and looking for pacers to blame. 
For the 'can control' things I'm disgusted with myself. For the 'can't' I feel a little hard done by but the only thing to do is put it right.

highlandcow

rooneyjm wrote: »

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5

Total..........113...........145.0

Week 3 of 18 complete, 6 days running. 8 x 600m @ 5.50min pace on Wednesday, target 6.00min pace. 6 mile tempo, MP, Average 6.45 Sat. 12.5 miles Sunday

Is this your first time doing Hanson's?



I just came through a full cycle that resulted in a sub 3 PB. I really liked the plan. It s definitley demanding but I think I preferred to it to the Pfitz plan I did last year. Let me know if you have any questions.

Itziger

highlandcow wrote: »

rooneyjm wrote: »

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5

Total..........113...........145.0

Week 3 of 18 complete, 6 days running.  8 x 600m @ 5.50min pace on Wednesday, target 6.00min pace. 6 mile tempo, MP, Average 6.45 Sat. 12.5 miles Sunday

Is this your first time doing Hanson's?



I just came through a full cycle that resulted in a sub 3 PB. I really liked the plan. It s definitley demanding but I think I preferred to it to the Pfitz plan I did last year. Let me know if you have any questions.

I'm thinking of having a go at Hansons just for a change, keep me fresh. What's the story with the Long Runs? I see there is some talk of doing a couple 'depleted' and some others at certain paces and/or fast finish. I'm a bit confused though...... If I take it on I'll be asking loads of questions as I don't have the book.

and still ricky villa

I'd recommend Hanson's for a change of pace.
I used it for Rotterdam last year and apart from my various whinges on other threads about my bad luck that weekend I'd never felt stronger.
PBs were dropping in training the whole time too.
I take great confidence from long runs so extended the prescribed 16 milers to 20/22 And as I had more than the 18 weeks I extended the midweek MP run to about 14 miles

healy1835

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea it's hard to argue with that. Being realistic and humble are always good qualities. Sometimes saying or typing that you'll smash this or that is part of the mental preparation - if you don't see it happening then how is it meant to? I hope I didn't make you wince too much. I don't really tend to think very deeply when posting about marathon preparation. It's usually just numbers and reactions to them. I suppose being down is much worse than any subsequent kick. I'm taking the positives out of this. I made it to the start and finish lines. I made mistakes but nothing glaring. I backed myself and came up a bit short, not an awful lot. I'm looking forward to getting at it again.

The fact you're itching to go again is important. You know a couple of areas that you can work on straight away.....ever thought of putting a log up on these here parts? (Apologies if you have one already....)