The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

cfitz

--amadeus-- wrote: »

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

Amadeus, I think it's time for you to knuckle down. Take a serious, regimental approach to your next marathon. That way you'll have a better idea of your potential, and no more of this "well I've been running fairly well these past few years but I'm a lazy runner so who knows what I'm capable of".

Do out a strict but conservative (not too ambitious) schedule and stick to it.

Regarding your mileage, to me it looks quite low, but I think the important thing for you is consistency. Maybe aim to have that mileage up to 60 sometime in the future, but between now and then make sure you get out 6 times every week and that you do the session that you have planned.

Gringo78

I'm hoping to be making a serious attempt at Sub 3 for a Spring marathon in 2010 and I've been thinking a lot about whats required to do so. I think firstly, a runner should be classifed as years running experience or >3 years running experience. years, continual training will improve your times all the time regardless really of what sessions or tempo runs or intervals you do (of course you will improve faster with properly structured training) but after about 3 years your times will plateau if you're training haphazardly and to get PB's then you need properly structured training.

Most people going for Sub 3 are >3 years or heading for it and if they haven't yet acheived the Sub 3, and the suggested capability is there, I think its a case of training smarter and not neccessarily piling on the weekly miles (that'll work only to a point).

You need 3 key workouts a week:

1. Long Slow Run...1min a mile slower than your marathon pace. Throw in every second week some miles towards the end of the run at target marathon pace +10-20sec. I think its important you don't actually run at target marathon pace on the LSR as its not the same as post taper so I'm not sure its benefical whereas PMP+10-20 would be a more accurate simulation of the PMP on the marathon day. Better still might be to run some miles at the end of the run at the same HR as you would be expect to have on race day....should be slower than PMP as you haven't tapered.

2. Interval Training....5-8 x 0.5-1mile intervals at 5k pace (session will be about 6-7 miles)

3. Tempo Run.....20-40min @ 10k to HM pace (session will be about 6 miles)

The rest of the running should be at easy/recovery pace, PMP+60sec probably at least.

If you add up the miles, 20 mile LSR, 6 Interval, 6 tempo + 2x4 miles easy/recovery you get 40mpw (and thats later in the marathon training program when you start hitting 20 miles on LSR). Any additional miles are icing on the cake run at easy pace but I think if your times have plateaued missing the tempo and the interval run will play a big part in not getting the Sub 3.

So in the early part of marathon training program you might only be doing 35mpw but they can be 35 smart quality miles or 35 haphazard miles.

These are only my own thoughts and not neccessarily correct at all (I'm sure Tergat or someone will correct me) and will be how I will be training for marathon in 2010 and is how I am training for HM now but I suppose my overall point is, Sub 3 is tough challange, only about 10% of marathoners get it, and with our current lifestyles giving limited time available for training you need to train smart with the available time.

I think you can take 2 runners of equal experience and ability, both on the cusp of Sub 3 greatness, one can train 70mpw and not make it and the other can train at 40mpw and make it. I suppose thats why you have coaches.

Racing Flat

Keep progressing. If on your last sub 3 attempt you set a goal of 85mins for half marathon and got it, but missed sub 3, well then this time your marathon target will be the same, but your half marathon target should be 83 or something. Don't rest on your laurels. Be consistent, coming back to my hobby horse of don't take 2 months off after the marathon and so come back at square 1 for the next attempt. Keep the momentum and the progression up.

MCOS

I've said it to you a couple of times mate... tuesday night track session at the Arena, some pretty good runners there so running with them and mingling with them will only get you in the mood and believe me training with people will get you there faster than you will by yourself. There is also a coach there. I know you have your reservations about club sessions etc.. but if you look for a common theme amongst all the guys here who have already done sub 3, they train with clubs, running partners or running groups of some sort. Wouldn't it be good to be training with people with similar goals? Wonderhound will forgive you!

Abhainn

Peak week for my marathon schedule will be something like this:

Mon - Rest or 4 miles easy
Tues - 7 miles at around 07:15 pace
Wed - 8 x 800 at average 2:45 / 800 or 6 x 1k at 3:30 average
Thurs -6 miles at 07:15 pace
Fri - Rest
Sat - 12 miles at MP (6:45 /mile)
Sun - 22 miles with last 6 at MP

Total miles: 60

If I can get through that week I'm hoping that will give me the 61 seconds I couldn't find last Sept

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

coming back to my hobby horse of don't take 2 months off after the marathon and so come back at square 1 for the next attempt. Keep the momentum and the progression up.

+1. Initially I use to take a month off totally after a marathon and it was so hard to get back. Now I take time off but keep ticking over with some shorter runs for a month before starting again. This time I'm coming back from an enforced rest and it is bloody torture. As RF says don't rest on your laurels.

Stupid_Private

Abhainn wrote: »

Peak week for my marathon schedule will be something like this:

Mon - Rest or 4 miles easy
Tues - 7 miles at around 07:15 pace
Wed - 8 x 800 at average 2:45 / 800 or 6 x 1k at 3:30 average
Thurs -6 miles at 07:15 pace
Fri - Rest
Sat - 12 miles at MP (6:45 /mile)
Sun - 22 miles with last 6 at MP

Total miles: 60

If I can get through that week I'm hoping that will give me the 61 seconds I couldn't find last Sept

Personally I'd just swap the days about a bit - the Sat and Sun in a row is a tough ask. I'd swap Friday and Saturday, also swap Tuesday and Wednesday - Monday would be 4 miles and not a rest. I wouldn't constrict myself to a pace on Wednesday or Thursday, just comfortable running. Some days I'll be out doing 8 minute pace because of tough sessions the day before - you never really know what pace you're going to do your jogging days until you get out and do them.

Abhainn

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Personally I'd just swap the days about a bit - the Sat and Sun in a row is a tough ask. I'd swap Friday and Saturday, also swap Tuesday and Wednesday - Monday would be 4 miles and not a rest. I wouldn't constrict myself to a pace on Wednesday or Thursday, just comfortable running. Some days I'll be out doing 8 minute pace because of tough sessions the day before - you never really know what pace you're going to do your jogging days until you get out and do them.

Thanks SP. I take your point on the Tues / Wed switch. Plan is to stick to the Sat / Sun schedule, yes not easy but has to be done

Rusty Cogs 08

For anyone who has gone (marginally) sub 3 or those aiming for it. How did you decide what pace to go out at for say the first half. The arguement for 26.2 at 6'50 throughout is one option. A faster first half with a 2nd half fade is another or a negative split for the brave ?

But also, what if you feel your training is going well and you feel like going for say 6'40"'s for the first half (giving you a cushion for the 2nd).

Considering you're in new territory for that distance at that pace, just how did you / will you decide on your race pace ?

aero2k

Hi Amadeus,

This is a great idea for a thread. I consider myself very much a novice runner, but I believe I'm capable of a sub 3. After a bad (though still very enjoyable) experience last year it took me a while to get back into proper training though I did manage to get out 3-4 times per week for some sort of a run, and didn't put too much weight on. I think Racing Flat is bang on about maintaining momentum, I certainly lost mine but it's back now. I'm now up to 7 days per week with 1 LSR of over 2 hours, 1 of Tergat's "big workouts" for 90 mins, and the rest of the days are 30-60 mins at whatever pace feels okay. I'm looking at adding in a hill workout, maybe as part of the big workout or perhaps on one of the other days. I will avoid doing hard sessions on successive days. My LSR is on an undulating course. I am gradually building up the mileage and intensity though I agree with Gringo that quality is much more important than quantity. I also plan to start doing 30-45 mins at PMP towards the end of my LSR every second week. The other weeks I'm considering doing the run without carbs, but drinking plenty of water as recommended by McMillan.
I'm still a bit behind where I'd like to be, though I feel I'm significantly ahead of last year. I ran 31:30 for 5 miles back in May, 99 seconds quicker than the same stage last year, and last Sunday I ran 18:38 for the 5k, which McMillan translates to 3:01:29 for the marathon. I have 14 weeks to find 90 secs.....
I'm running the Adidas series and treating the races as "big workouts"; for race weeks I'll do my LSR on the Tues and after the race on Saturday I'll do a warm down long enough to make the days total 90-120min.
I have got so much helpful advice and inspiration from this forum, I think that's made all the difference over last year.

aero2k

Peckham

Great idea for a thread - us sub-3 wannabes need help too! Good points made above.

I'm quite concerned about my sub-3 attempt this year. Firstly am not in as good shape as I was this far out from DCM last year, and secondly training has been a little broken with wedding etc. For example, I had some minor surgery today and whilst it's not running related, I have to rest up for the next few days. Throw in a few weddings and a stag weekend all between now and Berlin, means I have a lot of obstacles to effective training!

Need to up my speedwork a bit in particular. Since start June I've done three tempo runs, which have been tough going. To give myself a bit of a confidence boost I went out for a 12 mile run last night, and did 6.55 (i.e. a quarter-marathon!) at target marathon pace. Held a 6:48/mile pace across rolling hills, and was happy enough with that (given that Berlin will be flat).

Focus for me is to get quality long runs in - i.e. 18-20 milers with fast segments (i.e. progression runs or just finishing at marathon pace). That plus speedwork. From week after next onwards it will be 50-55 mile weeks.

Not 100% confident about Berlin being my big race, and to be honest have found my mind drifting towards London 2010 instead.

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Personally I'd just swap the days about a bit - the Sat and Sun in a row is a tough ask.

I'd agree with this.

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

For anyone who has gone (marginally) sub 3 or those aiming for it. How did you decide what pace to go out at for say the first half.

I don't think it matters whether you are aiming for 2.03 or 5.59, go out at whatever pace your planned finish time divided by 26.2 is, or perhaps marginally slower.

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

A faster first half with a 2nd half fade is another. A negative split for the brave ?

I think you mean a positive split, i.e. slower second half. I think this would be more painful, less enjoyable and reduce your chances of hitting your target time. Unless you are experienced and know it works for you, I think negative or even splits would be the most advisable and the most successful.

aero2k wrote: »

The other weeks I'm considering doing the run without carbs, but drinking plenty of water as recommended by McMillan.

If you have a good reason for doing this, fair enough, but I can't see one. For one, you'll be eating carbs on race morning, I presume, so from a specificity of training point of view, why not do the same, get used to this? There used to be a school of thought that by starting off already low on glycogen would lead to earlier depletion of stores and so you would use more fat for energy, similar to the end of the marathon, so might improve race day performance by training this energy system. But I don't know if that actually happens like that, or if it does the stress it places on your system and possibly immune system may be counterproductive - run you down too much. It wouldn't be for me anyway.

aero2k wrote: »

I'm running the Adidas series and treating the races as "big workouts"; for race weeks I'll do my LSR on the Tues and after the race on Saturday I'll do a warm down long enough to make the days total 90-120min.

I wouldn't recommend this. A race is a race, adding and hour or 90 minutes on to the end of a 5mile race would probably take more out of you than you could hope to gain I think. No need to do everything every week. Keep faith in your long term 20 week plan, as long as you have enough of the long runs in no harm missing a week for a race.

aero2k wrote: »

and last Sunday I ran 18:38 for the 5k, which McMillan translates to 3:01:29 for the marathon. I have 14 weeks to find 90 secs.....

When using mcmillan for predicting marathon time, my rule of thumb is to only use half marathon times and to add 5-10minutes. Between 5k and half marathon it's fine, above and below that it's a bit ropy IMO.

I'd imagine you'd want to be very close to 18mins for 5k, 30mins for 5 miles, 37-38 for 10k, 62 for 10mile, 83 for the half.

ss43

You could something like this. Don't take too big a jump if you're not at anything like this already.

M - 40-60 easy. Add extra time if you feel able. Should be a comfortable enough pace
T - Session
W - 50-90 easy (like Monday)
T - 40 progressive (from slower to faster than race pace; add time. you could alternate to longer [70-90mins] slightly slower than race pace also)
F - rest
S - 40 easy + hill sprints (to keep leg speed)
S - Long run 2-3 hours (alternate between long easy and long progressive)

Sessions - Train to rasie your Anaerobic threshold first. Start with things like 6x1k, progress to 10x1k, 5x2k, 8x2k with 1k recovery. When you have the reps at about 3:35-40 pace, increase the pace of your 1k recovery to increas your aerobic threshold.

That'd bring you over 100k per week I'd reckon and covers paces at race pace, slightly faster, slightly slower and general aerobic conditioning stuff.

aero2k

Racing Flat wrote: »

or if it does the stress it places on your system and possibly immune system may be counterproductive - run you down too much. It wouldn't be for me anyway..

I'll bear this in mind, getting a bad cold is one of my biggest worries.

Racing Flat wrote: »

I wouldn't recommend this. A race is a race, adding and hour or 90 minutes on to the end of a 5mile race would probably take more out of you than you could hope to gain I think .... as long as you have enough of the long runs in no harm missing a week for a race.

I have designed my schedule to allow an easy week after every race - I'll still run every day but easy, with a few strides now and again. I won't need to add an hour or 90 min, a 25 min warm-up, a sub-31 min 5 mile and a 35 min warm down is what I'm thinking of. Obviously it's not an issue for the 10 mile and 1/2.

Racing Flat wrote: »

When using mcmillan for predicting marathon time, my rule of thumb is to only use half marathon times and to add 5-10minutes. Between 5k and half marathon it's fine, above and below that it's a bit ropy IMO. I'd imagine you'd want to be very close to 18mins for 5k, 30mins for 5 miles, 37-38 for 10k, 62 for 10mile, 83 for the half.

I agree. McMillan's actual times for the respective distances are 18:28, 30:36, 38:21, 64:16 and 85:20 (for a 2:59:59), and given that I haven't done any speed training recently I'm happy enough with being 10 secs too slow over the 5k. I plan to be better over the longer distances. Last year I did 66:28 for the 10 and 88:48 for the half, judging from my improvement so far I should be around 64 and 85 at the moment, so it's down to how much I can improve over the next couple of months.

Thanks for the very thoughtful and helpful reply.

aero2k

Sosa

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

You are a few weeks late to be in the running for thread of the year Amadeus...great idea for a thread,one i will be keeping an eye on and contributing to.
I am doing Dublin also and hoping to get as near to or just under the magical 3 hour mark,i am 3 weeks into the P & D 18wk up to 55m program.
They reckon that tempos and LSR's are the main runs that contribute to preparing for a marathon,that intervals are really for shorter races,there is only 3/4 V02 max sessions well into the program to deal with,but there are 4/5 medium long runs with the majority @ MP,i did the first last week 13m [EMAIL="w8@MP...i"]w8@MP...i[/EMAIL] have [EMAIL="15w10@MP"]15w10@MP[/EMAIL] to do next week....not easy but i imagine really good work outs.
I will only be running 5 days a week ( plenty ),with one LSR or med long,1 tempo or MP run,and 2 easy,and 1 recovery...thats the jist of my program.
Now,races throw the whole thing out,and tire you,i raced tonight and will race next Sunday,but other than that,i may do 1x5m in August and then the blarney half in early sept ...thats my lot i'd say...holidays thrown in the mix also....lots of obstacles to jump....but if i have to miss a session,it will be and easy one...i will be doing all the important ones,LSR,Med Long,Tempos,vO2 max,MP's and recovery's

Peckham

Sosa - looks like we're both P&D advocates! I'm following the exact same school of thought as you...bigger focus on tempo and PMP running than V02 max (seems to be a lot of marathoners on this forum focussing heavily on short reps). I'm also steering away from too much racing - the adidas 10 miler is my key race in training, and may only do one other.

asimonov

Peckham wrote: »

Sosa - looks like we're both P&D advocates! I'm following the exact same school of thought as you...bigger focus on tempo and PMP running than V02 max (seems to be a lot of marathoners on this forum focussing heavily on short reps). I'm also steering away from too much racing - the adidas 10 miler is my key race in training, and may only do one other.

I'm similar, using the same schedule with a few "things I made up myself" bits. I'm not doing short reps but longer cruise intervals on the schedule strides days. I'll do the vo2 max stuff as per the schedule. I'm gonna race a 10 mile in two weeks in Tipperary, and then the half in Dublin. I'm down to do the 10 in Dublin but I'm 50/50 on whether I'll do it or not. Good thread, should help us all along.

Clum

--amadeus-- wrote: »

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close.

I'm hoping to run around the quiet roads of Longford in less that 3 hours.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

I've actually cut down on my weekly mileage this time round and I'm concentrating on speed. Felt tired going in to Berlin last year and over did it training for Con and missed the race due to injury.

I'll probably hit 50 miles a week for 3 weeks but that's it. Plan is to do more long runs in the build up rather than high mileage. Speed work is going well and I've pb'd over 5k, 10k, sprint and olympic tri this summer. Unfortunately I don't have a half marathon lined up to test my pace over the longer distance and that's my main worry.

Sosa

Peckham wrote: »

Sosa - looks like we're both P&D advocates! I'm following the exact same school of thought as you...bigger focus on tempo and PMP running than V02 max (seems to be a lot of marathoners on this forum focussing heavily on short reps). I'm also steering away from too much racing - the adidas 10 miler is my key race in training, and may only do one other.

IMO you cannot race to much as it will take away from your harder sessions ( MP runs and tempos )....The half i do in sept will only be at MP...im not racing it,i have a 17m [EMAIL="w14@mp"]w14@mp[/EMAIL] to do around then,and i am going to use the half in blarney to do it.
Theres a race in August that i want to do but its the same w/e as i have a 20m LSR...dont know how i will go about that,maybe do the 20 the week earlier or later.
I am finished week 3 and have only done 1 tempo,but i have done an MP med long and i raced last night also,so i am not worried about it.
Next week i have 15 w/10 @ MP and a 5k race,the following week the tempos are back so there are tough sessions every week.

Racing Flat

As I went from 3.15 to 3.06 to 2.59, it might be similar to some on here hoping for sub 3, so my progression might be interesting to those.

Marathon 1 - 3.15 (Target 3.10)
Miles per week in 20 weeks prior - 45-50
Relevant Race Times during last 20 weeks:
5m 32.42 10k 39.44 10m 66.36 Half 90.59
Splits 95,100
What did mcmillan predict? 3.06-3.12

Marathon 2 - 3.06 (Target 2.59.59)
Miles in 20 weeks prior - 957 (48/week)
Relevant Race Times during last 20 weeks:
5m 30.18 10k 38.44 10m 65.13 Half 84.24
Splits 91,95
What did mcmillan predict? 2.58-3.02

Marathon 3 - 2.59 (Target 2.59.59)
Miles in 20 weeks prior - 1068 (53/week)
Relevant Race Times during last 20 weeks:
5m 28.24 10k 36.27 10m 60.01 Half 83.03
NB 10m time not in build-up, 6 months previously.
Splits 89,90
What did mcmillan predict? 2.47-2.55

I should have done it 2nd time round, but raced too much and so was inconsistent with many unplanned low mileage weeks and rest days, particularly at key times like 4th and 6th last weeks which are extremely improtant. 3rd time round was much more consistent, that being the main difference I think. I was more focused on the marathon and raced less.

TFBubendorfer

Racing Flat wrote: »

Marathon 3 - 2.59 (Target 2.59.59)
Miles in 20 weeks prior - 1068 (53/week)
Relevant Race Times during last 20 weeks:
5m 28.24 10k 36.27 10m 60.01 Half 83.03
NB 10m time not in build-up, 6 months previously.

Crikey, reading this almost makes me want to give up entirely. 60.01 in the 10 miles is totally out of reach for me, as is 36.27 in the 10k. How am I supposed to get to sub-3 with times of 63.01 and 39.09 respectively?

I actually chose to run Dingle this autumn so that I don't feel the pressure of "having to" run sub-3. The elevation profile pretty much rules out a great time. After 2 misses in Dublin and Boston I want to enjoy a marathon rather than end up frustrated again because I missed a time target.

Racing Flat

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Crikey, reading this almost makes me want to give up entirely. 60.01 in the 10 miles is totally out of reach for me, as is 36.27 in the 10k. How am I supposed to get to sub-3 with times of 63.01 and 39.09 respectively?

I suppose my post should come with a warning that endurance would be my weak point. I know someone who regularly runs 2.50-2.53, yet he hasn't gone under 85 for a half in years. I'd say you'll get there no problem with your strong mileage background. Just need the right day and marathon. Dublin or Berlin and you'll get it.

Racing Flat

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

end up frustrated again because I missed a time target.

This happened me big time after marathon 2 so I decided not to do another one until I knew I'd be able to go sub 3. So I waited 3 years, hence the big change in 5mile/10mile/10k times.

TFBubendorfer

Racing Flat wrote: »

This happened me big time after marathon 2 so I decided not to do another one until I knew I'd be able to go sub 3. So I waited 3 years, hence the big change in 5mile/10mile/10k times.

After Boston I felt like waiting 3 years myself. Problem is, I'll be 42 by then and any chance of a fast time might have gone for good.

Racing Flat

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

After Boston I felt like waiting 3 years myself. Problem is, I'll be 42 by then and any chance of a fast time might have gone for good.

Nah, age wouldn't be such a factor for the marathon, isn't there a 73 year old Canadian ran 2.55 or so...Not that I'm saying wait 3 years or anything, just that don't worry about the age pressure. A friend of mine ran 3.13, 3.08, 3.06, 3.08, 3.06, 3.05, going 2 a year as he was early 40s, having never run before the first one. He was so worried about getting too old for it, he forced it a bit, always going striaght from one to training for the next, so never really improved his shorter distances. Seems to have completely lost the motivation now, not really running, maybe burned out by overdoing it and too many disappointments to handle. I think if he'd have been a bit more patient and taken a bit more time between each attempt he'd have done it 3rd or 4th go. As I've said before I don't think the physiologcial requirements for a sub 3 are high enough for age to be too much of a factor.

Peckham

Here's a question I've been wondering for the past while. After a few marathons, and if aiming for a sub-3 time, do longer LSRs become less important? i.e. are you better off doing more high quality 18 milers (i.e. PMP runs etc.) than 20 milers at 7:30-7:45 pace?

aero2k

Racing Flat, that progression of times is very scary! I suppose I have to hope I can make up in endurance what I lack in speed.

Racing Flat wrote: »

but raced too much and so was inconsistent with many unplanned low mileage weeks and rest days, particularly at key times like 4th and 6th last weeks which are extremely improtant. ..... I was more focused on the marathon and raced less.

Can you elaborate on the above a bit? How much racing is too much? What do you recommend for the 4th and 6th last weeks?
As already mentioned I'm doing the Adidas series, but slotting them in in place of a hard session and with a (relatively) easy week after each one. My big concern is the closeness of the 1/2m to the DCM.
Thanks for this really helpful post.
aero2k

Racing Flat

Peckham wrote: »

After a few marathons, and if aiming for a sub-3 time, do longer LSRs become less important?

I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. The purpose of the long run will still be the same, so I think it's still going to be a key session, you'll probably just be doing them a bit quicker as you'll be a bit fitter. So I'd advocate just as many longs. I like to do at least 6 of 20-22. Definitely at least 3 22,s, probably 2 20s a 21, a 17, 18, 19...

aero2k wrote: »

Can you elaborate on the above a bit? How much racing is too much? What do you recommend for the 4th and 6th last weeks?
As already mentioned I'm doing the Adidas series, but slotting them in in place of a hard session and with a (relatively) easy week after each one. My big concern is the closeness of the 1/2m to the DCM.
Thanks for this really helpful post.
aero2k

I raced lots of short races, 1 miles and things like that which was probably abit stupid as you'd be tired and sore for a few days after, so miles would inevitably drop. I also had an 81 mile week which looks good on the face of it, but it consisted of a 20 on a Tuesday, a 5mile race on Saturday and a 22 on Sunday! Pure ridiculous, trying to get everything in with holidays coming up - you can't do everything, so don't force it. So by racing too much (every 2 weeks) I was going mileage wise 62,25,66,30,50,35 and so on, just too many low mileage weeks I think. Regular 50-60s much better, ideally 60 for sub 3 I think.

Re 4th and 6th weeks before, these were just the ones I ruined with a 20 and a 25 mile weeks that time. Just thinking that with a 3 week taper, weeks 4,5 and 6 before are so important, as these will probably be your highest mileage weeks and the peak part of your training. So mess those up and you can't make up for it during taper and before you know it it's 6 weesk since you've trained well so that you have lost significant fitness by race day. So I think the weeks before the taper need to be really strong and consistent.

But the half marathon about 5 weeks before is perfect - I would definitely race that. Also I would try and find a 10mile 4 weesk before that and another race 4 weeks before that 5mile or 10k (So the race series is probably perfect). I wouldn't do any other races.

Also, I wouldn't be too keen on an easy week after the race, if anything I'd go a bit easier the week before. The week after, you may not be able to do your sessions, but I'd be definitely looking for a high mileage week, just maybe with all easy runs. Otherwise you're having 2 easy/low mileage weeks in a row and I think that'd be detrimental.

Stupid_Private

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Crikey, reading this almost makes me want to give up entirely. 60.01 in the 10 miles is totally out of reach for me, as is 36.27 in the 10k. How am I supposed to get to sub-3 with times of 63.01 and 39.09 respectively?

I wouldn't worry about them times by RF in his marathon year too much. I think that they show that he could run a marathon a lot faster but as he says himself endurance just isn't his strong point. My times were nowhere close to that when I was knocking on 3 hours door.

6 months after running 3.01 I ran a 10k PB of 40.16 and my ten mile time was circa 64 minutes. The year I ran 59:xx for the 10 mile I followed it up with a 2.46 less than 2 months later.

I'd never seen or heard of the mcmillan calculator back in them days but if you type in my two marathon times above it predicts my 10 mile times to within 10 seconds!

Stupid_Private

aero2k wrote: »

My big concern is the closeness of the 1/2m to the DCM.

I agree fully with you on this one. If I'm not mistaken its 4 weeks before the marathon this year. If you're going at half marathon race pace (ie aiming for 1.24/1.25 or faster) then it's too close. I think there's a half in Waterford in September that'd be worth looking into and also the National half in Donegal the first weekend in September. Both of these will be less than €20 - there's one in Dingle but it's in the €60 bracket I think.

Sosa

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I agree fully with you on this one. If I'm not mistaken its 4 weeks before the marathon this year. If you're going at half marathon race pace (ie aiming for 1.24/1.25 or faster) then it's too close. I think there's a half in Waterford in September that'd be worth looking into and also the National half in Donegal the first weekend in September. Both of these will be less than €20 - there's one in Dingle but it's in the €60 bracket I think.

There is no half in waterford in september ( mores the pity,its on dec 12th or 13th ),i am doing the blarney half ( €20 ) on sept 13th at MP,i would not risk going full pelt even though its 6 weeks before Dublin.

http://www.activeglobal.com/Events/index.cfm?AC=EventDetails_V2&E=78857

Stupid_Private

Sosa wrote: »

There is no half in waterford in september ( mores the pity,its on dec 12th or 13th ),i am doing the blarney half ( €20 ) on sept 13th at MP,i would not risk going full pelt even though its 6 weeks before Dublin.

http://www.activeglobal.com/Events/index.cfm?AC=EventDetails_V2&E=78857

You're right, the Waterford one is in December. Five or six weeks before a marathon is fine to go full pelt in a half - any closer is too tight in my opinion (or more an opinion given to me and I've stuck with)

aero2k

Racing Flat wrote: »

Pure ridiculous, trying to get everything in with holidays coming up - you can't do everything, so don't force it.

It's hard to fight the temptation to try to fit every magic workout you've ever heard of into every training week. I resolved this back in my cycling days after finding an excellent online source of advice. Then I would do, for example, a tempo or interval workout followed immediately by some easy miles to bring it up to 2-3 hours. I was on the bike 6 days per week, but only 2 or at most 3 of those days were hard.

Also, I wouldn't be too keen on an easy week after the race, if anything I'd go a bit easier the week before. The week after, you may not be able to do your sessions, but I'd be definitely looking for a high mileage week, just maybe with all easy runs. Otherwise you're having 2 easy/low mileage weeks in a row and I think that'd be detrimental.

This might sound sacrilegious, but I'm treating the races as "big workouts" (cf Tergat). So I'll do a LSR on the Tuesday and some easy miles the other days except the day before the race which will be short. The week after I'll leave out the big workout and do the LSR on the Saturday. The other days will be easy miles, 30-60 mins depending on how I feel.
The 1/2m is 30 days before the DCM, so I'll see how I recover after the 10m before deciding what pace to run it at.
Again, thanks for the very helpful and thoughtful reply.
aero2k

aero2k

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about them times by RF in his marathon year too much.... My times were nowhere close to that when I was knocking on 3 hours door.
6 months after running 3.01 I ran a 10k PB of 40.16 and my ten mile time was circa 64 minutes.

Cheers, Stupid_Private, maybe all is not lost...

aero2k

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I agree fully with you on this one. If I'm not mistaken its 4 weeks before the marathon this year. If you're going at half marathon race pace (ie aiming for 1.24/1.25 or faster) then it's too close. I think there's a half in Waterford in September that'd be worth looking into and also the National half in Donegal the first weekend in September. Both of these will be less than €20 - there's one in Dingle but it's in the €60 bracket I think.

Cheers. I'll give it some thought. Logic tells me I should be able to recover in 30 days, but if it's hot like last year and I run flat out it might affect subsequent training. I'm really doing the race series with the hope of achieving times that will give me confidence in my attempt on the magical 3-hr barrier. If I manage a flyer in the 10m maybe I'll just do the half at MP.

TFBubendorfer

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I'd never seen or heard of the mcmillan calculator back in them days but if you type in my two marathon times above it predicts my 10 mile times to within 10 seconds!

My problem with the MacMillan calculator is that it predicts my times very accurately up to the half marathon. For the full marathon, I'm 5 minutes slower than predicted. This has been the case for a few years now, despite the fact that the shorter races were only ever run as part of my marathon training.

cfitz

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

My problem with the MacMillan calculator is that it predicts my times very accurately up to the half marathon. For the full marathon, I'm 5 minutes slower than predicted. This has been the case for a few years now, despite the fact that the shorter races were only ever run as part of my marathon training.

Greg McMillan promotes a high mileage approach to marathon training, so it's possible that, if your mileage is lowish, you wouldn't have the strength to carry through the times from the shorter distances through to a full marathon.

TFBubendorfer

cfitz wrote: »

Greg McMillan promotes a high mileage approach to marathon training, so it's possible that, if your mileage is lowish, you wouldn't have the strength to carry through the times from the shorter distances through to a full marathon.

I can assure you, low mileage is not the problem in my case!

Running Bing

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I can assure you, low mileage is not the problem in my case!

What sort of mileage are you running TF?

cfitz

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I can assure you, low mileage is not the problem in my case!

Oh ok. I've never run a marathon, McMillan predicts a time for me that looks quite difficult, but other people seem to find it works out fairly accurately

christeb

I've been keeping an eye on TF's blog here, the man is a mile eating machine!!!!

http://rubbishrunner.blogspot.com/

Running Bing

christeb wrote: »

I've been keeping an eye on TF's blog here, the man is a mile eating machine!!!!

http://rubbishrunner.blogspot.com/

Yeah impressive stuff alright.


I once heard somebody say the "McMillan calculator is based on an algorithm, you are not":D

I think its just a guideline and cant be taken to seriously.

shels4ever

Running Bing wrote: »

Yeah impressive stuff alright.


I once heard somebody say the "McMillan calculator is based on an algorithm, you are not":D

I think its just a guideline and cant be taken to seriously.

Thats true, I've found it reall good with distances from 2 miles to 10k but after that its another ball game . It's gone from showing me 4 hour Marathons to 3:20 now..:)

TheRoadRunner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I can assure you, low mileage is not the problem in my case!

Have you ever considered a change in training then ? Maybe Less miles at a higher quality pace! Sometimes a shock to the system can reap rewards.

TFBubendorfer

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Have you ever considered a change in training then ? Maybe Less miles at a higher quality pace! Sometimes a shock to the system can reap rewards.

Yes I did, last year for Dublin. It even worked as I set my still valid marathon PB in that race. The problem was that I felt completely run down, exhausted and burnt out with a few weeks to go, and radically cut down on my training in order to even reach the start line. After that I basically decided that 80-100 miles at reasonable pace are much easier on me than 60-80 miles with plenty of "quality", which is something I still believe.

I also happen to think that running a lot of miles will build a much better endurance base. If in a year or two I decide to give the lower-mileage/higher quality another go, I'll be in a better position to do so because of my solid foundation.

Some guys are better served with miles, others with speed, and I'm pretty sure I know where I stand.

cfitz

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I also happen to think that running a lot of miles will build a much better endurance base. If in a year or two I decide to give the lower-mileage/higher quality another go, I'll be in a better position to do so because of my solid foundation.

This makes good sense. But it might be worth taking your age into consideration a little bit.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Yes I did, last year for Dublin. It even worked as I set my still valid marathon PB in that race. The problem was that I felt completely run down, exhausted and burnt out with a few weeks to go, and radically cut down on my training in order to even reach the start line. After that I basically decided that 80-100 miles at reasonable pace are much easier on me than 60-80 miles with plenty of "quality", which is something I still believe.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Some guys are better served with miles, others with speed, and I'm pretty sure I know where I stand.

The fact that you ran your PB after a lower mileage programme (despite having to cut it down even further approaching race day!) suggests that it's not so clear.

80-100 miles sounds like a very heavy workload for a 3:05 marathon. (A lot of people probably think my results don't compare well to my workload, so I'm not trying to be negative for the sake of it.) It might be worthwhile to change things up a bit after your next marathon and see what happens - maybe train specifically for a half-marathon or 10k for a few months just to see how your body adapts to a different type of programme.

TFBubendorfer

cfitz wrote: »

80-100 miles sounds like a very heavy workload for a 3:05 marathon. (A lot of people probably think my results don't compare well to my workload, so I'm not trying to be negative for the sake of it.) It might be worthwhile to change things up a bit after your next marathon and see what happens - maybe train specifically for a half-marathon or 10k for a few months just to see how your body adapts to a different type of programme.

Actually, I'm planning on doing the opposite. While running up the Hell of the West in last year's Connemara Ultra I swore I'd be back 2 years later to take my revenge on the course. I have every intention on keeping that date! The next sub-3 marathon assault will have to wait until autumn 2010 at least, even if it costs me the chance of ever going under 3 hours. This is personal .

mithril

Thomas, the marathons you are attempting are either very tough Dingle/Boston or average (Cork/Dublin).

How about trying a very flat course e.g. Longford/Berlin etc. and see how close you can get on that?

Rusty Cogs 08

For anyone who has gone for a sub 3 and failed, in hindsight, could you hypothosise where you went wrong in your training, race prep, race strategy ?

jaymack75

I'm also going for the sub3 in Dublin

Do you guys all train using pace / perceived effort / heart rate or what??

I do all my training using the heartrate monitor and I find it's really valuable for training at the right effort level – without the hrm, I find it difficult to get the effort right. I think a big factor is getting the consistency and frequency of runs first, then looking towards more volume and intensity after

Most of my running is done at my aerobic threshold and then I add in some lactate threshold sessions.

Mileage-wise, I probably won’t even hit 60 miles at my peak week. My longest week in the run up to the Connemara ultra was 56miles.