The Sub 3 Support Thread

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Get better soon!

Make absolutely sure you let the cardiologist know you are an endurance athlete as that has a big effect on HR. The cardiologist needs to know that before he/she can draw any conclusions.

Yeah, I told him already. It's unbelievable how ignorant some people are about training and such like. Not necessarily the specialist but some of the other docs. Some could hardly believe that I was doing more than 100kms a week. I think one of the tests next week is on a static bike. Don't know how that'll go cos I'm absolutely $hite on a bike. Results may not be conclusive!!

Really sorry to read that Itziger. I'll stop whining about my back now. Hope it turns out better than the current outlook. Tell the colleagues and friends to shut the hell up! Do you keep track of HR data during some of your runs? If so could be useful to give the cardiologist access our a summary?

paddybarry

1 23 XX for me today. Unfortunately, my chip failed to register so not in official results. Happy with the time on a challenging course. Felt good at the finish. Hopefully keep the niggles at bay until DCM.

Sandwell

Had my last big MP session today on the P&D 55 programme, 18 w/ 14MP. Got a nice enough morning for it, if a bit blustery, in the Phoenix Park and managed to hold 6:40 pace comfortably enough for the duration. This was the first one of these where I didn't finish in a heap and doubting the possibility of running 26 miles at that pace. Today I actually felt like I could have done a few more miles at that pace if necessary so it looks like the fitness gains are beginning to kick in.

Interestingly, on my previous two MP long runs I'd been experimenting with gels but today I took nothing apart from some water mixed with electrolytes at halfway. I'm not sure what to make of that. The gels didn't disagree with me or anything but neither did I feel any benefit from them. I'm a bit unsure now about what to do for the race itself.

yaboya1

Itziger wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Might have to go with pacemaker if the problem persists. I'm too young for a pacemaker!!!!

Lads, especially my fellow middle aged runners, keep an eye on the health from time to time.

Sorry to read this D. Get well soon.
HR in the 30's doesn't sound abnormal for someone doing your mileage though? Hopefully a false alarm. Look after yourself.

hot buttered scones

Itziger wrote:

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Look after yourself and I hope its nothing serious. Similar thing happened to a lad in work this week - you can't be too careful I suppose.

conavitzky

How has everybody getting on with their training? In the middle of highest mileage week after a 10k race last weekend and the cumulative training fatigue effect has definitely kicked in. Midweek long run was torture last night. Legs like lumps of lead. Experience telling me that its just tiredness and the legs will come back around during the taper, yet the little devil on the shoulder:mad: is going - you have blown it boyo. You will never get back to the way you were feeling last week!

Duanington

conavitzky wrote: »

How has everybody getting on with their training? In the middle of highest mileage week after a 10k race last weekend and the cumulative training fatigue effect has definitely kicked in. Midweek long run was torture last night. Legs like lumps of lead. Experience telling me that its just tiredness and the legs will come back around during the taper, yet the little devil on the shoulder:mad: is going - you have blown it boyo. You will never get back to the way you were feeling last week!

^^^ I can definitely relate to this

My race is done and dusted now and I'm in post marathon recovery\insanity\depression but I had a few weeks where some of my hardest runs were short 6 mile runs at "easy" pace....I found good sleep and hydration really helped. By good sleep, I mean actually focusing on getting to sleep early ( while not always possible in real life, I did manage 3-4 nights per week for a while).
The training almost took care of itself because there was so much focus there but I learned to place a lot of emphasis on recovery ( hydration, sleep, nutrition) over the course of the last cycle

daydorunrun

Not going for sub 3 (aiming for 3:05ish before targeting sub 3 nest year).

feeling tired atm. Suffering from early onset taper madness!

Doing the 3/4 marathon on Sunday and have been reading back in this thread for advice about MP sessions 3 weeks out.
I'm following P&D 70 mile plan with a few changes (have added more MP miles to long runs as I feel I've been short on these before).
I've done a 20 mile w/ 4,3,2,1 at MP w/800 meter steady,
18 w/13 @mp,
20 w/13 @mp,
18 w/14 @mp (2 weeks ago)
as well as an easier 18 & 22 miler.

For the 3/4 race on Sunday I was thinking of doing the 5,4,3,2,1 session or 3x5 miles @mp.
Are these sessions a bit too hard to be doing 3 weeks out?
The P&D plan has a regular 20 long run scheduled.

echancrure

daydorunrun wrote: »

3x5 miles @mp.

There's absolutely no way I could do that 3 weeks out from a marathon...

sideswipe

daydorunrun wrote: »

For the 3/4 race on Sunday I was thinking of doing the 5,4,3,2,1 session or 3x5 miles @mp.
Are these sessions a bit too hard to be doing 3 weeks out?
The P&D plan has a regular 20 long run scheduled.

Interested to hear people's opinion on this also. Doing the 3/4 and don't want to over do it (been there....done that!)
Was thinking of doing the 5,4,3,2,1 but running the 800's easy?

Sandwell

sideswipe wrote: »

Interested to hear people's opinion on this also. Doing the 3/4 and don't want to over do it (been there....done that!)
Was thinking of doing the 5,4,3,2,1 but running the 800's easy?

I'm not doing the 3/4 but I have my last 20 miler of the P&D 55 plan this weekend and I've been torn all week between sticking to the plan and running it as normal or adding in some MP stuff. I think I'm going to take the conservative option and follow the plan to the letter. As it's my first marathon I've got no basis for comparison so there's little to be gained (for me) in second guessing the plan.

averagejoe123

Sandwell wrote: »

I'm not doing the 3/4 but I have my last 20 miler of the P&D 55 plan this weekend and I've been torn all week between sticking to the plan and running it as normal or adding in some MP stuff. I think I'm going to take the conservative option and follow the plan to the letter. As it's my first marathon I've got no basis for comparison so there's little to be gained (for me) in second guessing the plan.

I over did it for the 3/4 last year and paid the price come marathon day. It may not have been the only reason I missed my target but it was definitely a contributing factor as I missed 2 interval sessions and had a poor 10k the week after it which set me back a bit.

I'm doing a 20 Mile race with EOI marathons this Saturday and will do the last 3-4 miles at MP depending on how I feel at that stage. I have completed all the MP runs (targeting 3.05-3.10) and don't see a need at this stage to stray too far from the schedule. There are a few demanding sessions next week that I do not want to miss by overcooking it this weekend.

Also if I was doing either the pyramid or 3*5 @ MP in the middle of a race I would find it very difficult to drop down in pace mid race if I was running as part of a group.

conavitzky

daydorunrun wrote: »

Not going for sub 3 (aiming for 3:05ish before targeting sub 3 nest year).

feeling tired atm. Suffering from early onset taper madness!

Doing the 3/4 marathon on Sunday and have been reading back in this thread for advice about MP sessions 3 weeks out.
I'm following P&D 70 mile plan with a few changes (have added more MP miles to long runs as I feel I've been short on these before).
I've done a 20 mile w/ 4,3,2,1 at MP w/800 meter steady,
18 w/13 @mp,
20 w/13 @mp,
18 w/14 @mp (2 weeks ago)
as well as an easier 18 & 22 miler.

For the 3/4 race on Sunday I was thinking of doing the 5,4,3,2,1 session or 3x5 miles @mp.
Are these sessions a bit too hard to be doing 3 weeks out?
The P&D plan has a regular 20 long run scheduled.

I have only run one marathon so not the most qualified to give an answer but I will touch on my experiences last year.
This weekend will really be your last big long run. This will create a certain amount of adrenaline where your will try and prove to yourself that you are in tip top shape. Don't leave your best performance on the roads this weekend. I done this last year. I felt better on my last 23 miler than I did on race day (ran this at my eventual MP:eek:) Maybe do it at MP plus 10% (around 4-50/k) with a progression down to MP for last 2-3k depending on how you feel. That's my thoughts on it for what its worth. Plenty of time over the taper to touch on MP here and there. By the look of things you have many miles done at MP already.

28064212

My personal favourite plan for the 3/4 is:

• First third (quarter-marathon) at MP + (15-to-30 seconds per km)
• Second third at MP + (5-to-15 s/km)
• Last third at MP

Couple of pros:

• It's a negative split plan, so you're (hopefully) passing people out towards the end
• The MP kms are done when you're at your most tired, so it's a pretty tough workout, but not so long that it'll take a long time to recover
• It's got more "headroom" if you do go out too fast or have selected an MP that's too hard (if you're suffering after the first third, you've done a lot less damage than if you had ran it at/with sections at MP)
• It's more representative of race-day: no easing off periods, just gets tougher, and it's all solid pacing, no surge-and-rest
• The 3/4 marathon has timing mats at each split, so you know exactly when to pick up the pace. Only two pace changes to remember too!
• Also, the last third was the toughest (hills-wise) when it was in Athlone, good prep for Dublin. Not sure if that's still true

DC.

I just go out & run these last 3 or so weeks. I don't worry about what pace it is, I just go with the flow & enjoy running.

One more long run (18/19) this weekend then taper.

ger664

Sandwell wrote: »

I'm not doing the 3/4 but I have my last 20 miler of the P&D 55 plan this weekend and I've been torn all week between sticking to the plan and running it as normal or adding in some MP stuff. I think I'm going to take the conservative option and follow the plan to the letter. As it's my first marathon I've got no basis for comparison so there's little to be gained (for me) in second guessing the plan.

Its your 1st Marathon so work on your endurance no need or reason to do MP stuff, leave that for the big day.

daydorunrun

28064212 wrote: »

My personal favourite plan for the 3/4 is:

• First third (quarter-marathon) at MP + (15-to-30 seconds per km)
• Second third at MP + (5-to-15 s/km)
• Last third at MP

Couple of pros:

• It's a negative split plan, so you're (hopefully) passing people out towards the end
• The MP kms are done when you're at your most tired, so it's a pretty tough workout, but not so long that it'll take a long time to recover
• It's got more "headroom" if you do go out too fast or have selected an MP that's too hard (if you're suffering after the first third, you've done a lot less damage than if you had ran it at/with sections at MP)
• It's more representative of race-day: no easing off periods, just gets tougher, and it's all solid pacing, no surge-and-rest
• The 3/4 marathon has timing mats at each split, so you know exactly when to pick up the pace. Only two pace changes to remember too!
• Also, the last third was the toughest (hills-wise) when it was in Athlone, good prep for Dublin. Not sure if that's still true

Like the sound of the progression run for each 1/4. Might do that as I'm a little worried about doing too much.........and also worried about doing too little:roll eyes: ahh the joys of marathon training!

dna_leri

ger664 wrote: »

Its your 1st Marathon so work on your endurance no need or reason to do MP stuff, leave that for the big day.

Surely first marathoners aiming for sub3 should be doing MP stuff!

Did 31k (19mi) with 3x7k MP off 1k myself. Felt bit tired from week's effort but was good session.

ger664

dna_leri wrote: »

Surely first marathoners aiming for sub3 should be doing MP stuff!

Regardless of their ability a first/second time marathon runner will not have very many 2+ hour long runs done. Adding the extra stress of MP miles in the last long run at the end of the training cycle this close to the race may leave them not full rested/recovered on race day. Many novices runners have left their Dublin races on the road in the 3/4 marathon by running at our close to MP.

Someone with 3 or more marathon training cycles done is a different proposition. Most people on this thread would fall into this category.

KielyUnusual

ger664 wrote: »

Regardless of their ability a first/second time marathon runner will not have very many 2+ hour long runs done. Adding the extra stress of MP miles in the last long run at the end of the training cycle this close to the race may leave them not full rested/recovered on race day. Many novices runners have left their Dublin races on the road in the 3/4 marathon by running at our close to MP.

Someone with 3 or more marathon training cycles done is a different proposition. Most people on this thread would fall into this category.

3 weeks = 21 days = a long time

My perspective is that given the long build up to the marathon, people get over anxious from a long way out. Three weeks is a lonnngggg time. I would have always done 10 miles at MP one week out and really liked this session. You need 3-4 weeks to recover from racing a marathon. If you need the same from a training session, then you are doing something wrong.

Again, I'm assuming people have been through a few cycles.

echancrure

dna_leri wrote: »

Surely first marathoners aiming for sub3 should be doing MP stuff!

Sure. Feel free to ignore the general wisdom of those who been there before.

echancrure

Personally I have just completed a training half PB time of 1h 29' as part of my last 20 miles run at the end of my 70+ miles week.

That's not my target MP (no way I could run my MP at the end of my toughest training week) but I am delighted with it and well on track.

Roll on to DCM taper !

Sacksian

dna_leri wrote: »

Surely first marathoners aiming for sub3 should be doing MP stuff!

Did 31k (19mi) with 3x7k MP off 1k myself. Felt bit tired from week's effort but was good session.

I think I did the 5-4-3-2-1 @MP session (off a mile easy) two or three weeks out from my first marathon. If you recover and taper properly, there should be no way you leave your marathon in that session. Personally, efficiency at MP was a bigger deal for me - it meant the actual race was enjoyable - than traditional endurance mileage.

On the day, you have to run 26.2 miles at that pace continuously, if you are not extremely comfortable running at that pace beforehand, I think you'll struggle.

Which is why I disagree with the way a lot of people run a half at MP 3 weeks out from their goal race. A half at MP should be pretty handy in a race situation, with company, etc.

Everyone's different, of course, but that was my experience!

KielyUnusual

Sacksian wrote: »

I think I did the 5-4-3-2-1 @MP session (off a mile easy) two or three weeks out from my first marathon. If you recover and taper properly, there should be no way you leave your marathon in that session. Personally, efficiency at MP was a bigger deal for me - it meant the actual race was enjoyable - than traditional endurance mileage.

On the day, you have to run 26.2 miles at that pace continuously, if you are not extremely comfortable running at that pace beforehand, I think you'll struggle.

Which is why I disagree with the way a lot of people run a half at MP 3 weeks out from their goal race. A half at MP should be pretty handy in a race situation, with company, etc.

Everyone's different, of course, but that was my experience!

Hold it a minute. You've run a marathon :eek::D

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Hold it a minute. You've run a marathon :eek::D

Yes, but it was before I discovered *running*.

I ran 3 actually - 100% sub-3 record!

paddybarry

Looking for some advice. Ran Dublin half in 1.23.xx. Picked up a quad strain on Thursday after race. Ran a total of 49 miles that week. Last week only managed just under 25 miles. This included a visit to physio with another session booked for this Wednesday. Quad feeling better but no where near 100%, it was a strain to my VMO.

Since beginning of July, I managed to average about 60 miles. Long runs over this period were 17, 17, 17, 17, 16, 16, 16, 19, 20, 20, 20. Last long run was day of half marathon which was about 16. At least every 2 weeks I would do a midweek session of 10 at PMP aswell. Probably done about 6-7 of these.

Was really hoping to get a couple of 20+ runs in over past two weeks but injury put paid to that. Thinking of doing either easy 20 mile run next weekend or 20 miles incorporating 54321 at PMP. If I came through this was going to do easy 18, week before race.

I'm concerned that lack of 20+ runs will catch me out, and am thinking of playing catchup over next two weeks (injury permitting) with a one week taper.

I'm very open to council on this plan.
PB

Sandwell

I ended up doing 22 at 7:40 pace. Happy enough with that. Coincidentally, I just spotted a clubmate on Strava who is also shooting for sub 3 in DCM. He ran the full 3/4 marathon today at 6:40 pace. It'll be interesting to see how he goes in 3 weeks.

dna_leri

ger664 wrote: »

Regardless of their ability a first/second time marathon runner will not have very many 2+ hour long runs done. Adding the extra stress of MP miles in the last long run at the end of the training cycle this close to the race may leave them not full rested/recovered on race day.

What is your definition of not many 2+ hour long runs?

rooneyjm

Someone posted a copy of Hanson method a few months back. Does anyone know what page it's on, been thro about 50

El Caballo

Sandwell wrote: »

He ran the full 3/4 marathon today at 6:40 pace. It'll be interesting to see how he goes in 3 weeks.

Done that in 2014, 18.6 at 6.45 pace avg although I added to it by running the last 5k in sub-20. Felt I could've kept going at the finishline but I think I cooked my goose for the DCM right there and then. Although the DCM was carnage that year with the humidity , I passed through halfway in 1:30:18 and a mile later, I'd to stop. Always regretted running that 30k a)too fast and b)at all. Not saying it will cook his marathon but after that, I'd be of the opinion that if you are going to run 30k + at marathon pace, you might as well keep going and just get the 42.2k over with 3 weeks early.

It doesn't serve any purpose but to harm in my experience because if you get it wrong, it's 30k on tired legs without a taper which all in all, probably has close to the effects of a full marathon on your body. Get it right and it still has close to that effect when you add up the cumulative fatigue over a whole training block. Some people might get away with it but I just think it's a big risk without little reward in hindsight.