The Sub 3 Support Thread

davedanon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Needless to say, there's lots of other quality stuff in there, and the above is spread over a 21 week period (buy the book for more details!).

Which book, Krusty?

sideswipe

This thread in a gold mine of quality training, easily the best thread on the forum!!! Just need to put it into practise now.

Krusty_Clown

davedanon wrote: »

Which book, Krusty?

Steve Magness - Science of Running (Book Depository, Amazon).

RayCun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

6 miles alternating (400m faster than LT/1200m steady)

what is 'steady' here?

davedanon

RayCun wrote: »

what is 'steady' here?

MP plus 30secs?

davedanon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Steve Magness - Science of Running (Book Depository, Amazon).

thanks, man.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

what is 'steady' here?

You don't have to put a number on everything, but for me it was typically around 6:27/mile on the treadmill (where you need to apply some number!), somewhere around 6:20-6:40/mile on the road, for a target MP of 5:42/mile and an LT of @5:27. My numbers are not based on physiological testing or anything, so could be way off, but seem about right based on effort levels and results. Basically I wouldn't get too scientific about easy or steady. Steady should feel easier than marathon pace but harder than easy. Easy should be easier than steady, but harder than recovery. Recovery should feel like it's making you better and should probably be faster than walking pace. Simples!

davedanon

I was running recovery miles of 9.20 last night! Felt quite perversely proud. Amazing how I could run 9 7.15 miles the night before, and feel like such an old crock a day later. It underlines how tough the sessions are, and how important the recovery is.

conavitzky

davedanon wrote: »

I was running recovery miles of 9.20 last night! Felt quite perversely proud. Amazing how I could run 9 7.15 miles the night before, and feel like such an old crock a day later. It underlines how tough the sessions are, and how important the recovery is.

I agree and have found that recovery runs are the most enjoyable runs of them all. Just pottering along without a care in the world (Andy Dufresne like!)

PaulieYifter

Just to give a +1 to the Magness plan here.

I'm nowhere near a 100 mile per week runner but I took the key sessions out of the plan and did those - pretty much followed the progression listed above by Krusty. There's some nice other speed sessions in the plan too.

In my mind those alternating sessions were like a pendulum swinging either side of MP but getting closer to MP as you got closer to race day.

I used a different plan for my most recent marathon but looking forward to going back to this for spring marathon 2017.

AuldManKing

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

20 mins LT
6 miles alternating (400m faster than LT/1200m steady)
25 mins split LT
6? miles alternating (800m faster than LT/800m steady)
30 mins split LT
8 miles alternating (800m LT/800m MP)
35 mins split LT
5 Miles Easy + 9 miles alternating (800m just slower than LT/800@MP) <- This one was fun (only managed 7 miles!).
4 Miles Easy + 6 miles alternating (1mile@MP/800 steady) + 4 miles Easy
5 Miles Easy + 5 x alternating (1.5mile@MP/800 steady)
5 x (2 Miles @MP/800 steady)
7 Miles alternating (400 @LT/1200@ MP)
4 x (3 miles @MP / 800 steady)
MP stuff
Race

What is the thought process about splitting the LT sessions as opposed to a straight 20 or 35 mins??

PaulieYifter

AuldManKing wrote: »

What is the thought process about splitting the LT sessions as opposed to a straight 20 or 35 mins??

In the Magness book he says you want to improve LT rather than VO2 Max. Splitting them keeps you in the LT range rather than having to finish all out.

This keeps the session marathon specific.

dublin runner

Well, take me for example. If I were to do 30min at LT had would add up to 5.3x miles or thereabouts. Now, the more developed one is the closer paces converge. With that in mind, 30 minutes at LT would be quite close to a full out 10km for me. The more developed, the closer to a full race training effort. 30 minutes straight is way OTT imo. I will add that I don't know my true LT, it's more from personal experience.

Someone can come on and disagree. Feel free!

tomwaits48

God, that's at odds with the likes of P & D that have you doing 7 LT miles continious as part of an 11 mile run! Good to see a different perspective.

dublin runner

tomwaits48 wrote:

God, that's at odds with the likes of P & D that have you doing 7 LT miles continious as part of an 11 mile run! Good to see a different perspective.

I always found that session bonkers. If you take the much used 'LT=10 mile race pace' that's a monster session and one that would interupt my sleep! My hunch is that very few do it at true LT pace (hypocritic alert as I don't know mine!).

tomwaits48

dublin runner wrote: »

I always found that session bonkers. If you take the much used 'LT=10 mile race pace' that's a monster session and one that would interupt my sleep! My hunch is that very few do it at true LT pace (hypocritic alert as I don't know mine!).

yeah, I tried it and failed so just calling my Frank Duffy 10 mile race as the 7 LT session..hehe

dublin runner

tomwaits48 wrote:

yeah, I tried it and failed so just calling my Frank Duffy 10 mile race as the 7 LT session..hehe

I think we all suffered that day!

I would hazard that a lot of people taper for that particular session, thereby treating it as a race effort really.

BeepBeep67

dublin runner wrote: »

I think we all suffered that day!

I would hazard that a lot of people taper for that particular session, thereby treating it as a race effort really.

Looking back to when I followed the JD plan (almost to the letter), I really think I was overcooked by the time the marathon came along

Krusty_Clown

tomwaits48 wrote: »

God, that's at odds with the likes of P & D that have you doing 7 LT miles continious as part of an 11 mile run! Good to see a different perspective.

tomwaits48 wrote: »

God, that's at odds with the likes of P & D that have you doing 7 LT miles continious as part of an 11 mile run! Good to see a different perspective.

With Jack Daniels plans, as the Tempo-type sessions get longer, you're supposed to slow them down. So by the time you're doing 60 mins, it's actually around (sometimes slower than) marathon pace. e.g.:
20 mins: 6:20
30 mins: 6:28
40 mins: 6:33
60 mins: 6:41
M Pace = 6:42
Still some crazy sessions in there. As dublin_runner pointed out, the faster you get the narrow the differences are (in time) across 10 mile pace, LT, 1/2 marathon. On a number of occasions I've subbed something like 45 mins @LT for a 10 mile race, figuring that the longer distance will offset the convenience of being in a race environment.

overpronator

dublin runner wrote: »

I always found that session bonkers. If you take the much used 'LT=10 mile race pace' that's a monster session and one that would interupt my sleep! My hunch is that very few do it at true LT pace (hypocritic alert as I don't know mine!).

Yeah i think youre right, have completed that session before (it hung over for me for days beforehand) but i did it at HMP, it was still a monster but i did go out and run a half 10 days later at that same pace. Race was was easier than the session too. It was a serious confidence booster and its what gave me the confidence to settle on a sub 3 target.

For people at the faster end, 2.50 and quicker its just not feasible imo.

davedanon

So what is people's opinion of something like a key P&D session, such as 20/22 w 10/12 @MP?

Itziger

davedanon wrote: »

So what is people's opinion of something like a key P&D session, such as 20/22 w 10/12 @MP?

I think anyone going for sub 3 will probably look to do something like that in their prep. Now whether that's splitting up the MP miles, as KC suggests, or mixing in some faster surges or even maybe a 7E+7Steady+7MP, where you're getting 14 near MP and doing the last ones on fairly tired legs. Depends on the person.

Most I ever did at PMP was 14 miles I think and I didn't get the target on the day.

davedanon

Itziger wrote: »

I think anyone going for sub 3 will probably look to do something like that in their prep. Now whether that's splitting up the MP miles, as KC suggests, or mixing in some faster surges or even maybe a 7E+7Steady+7MP, where you're getting 14 near MP and doing the last ones on fairly tired legs. Depends on the person.

Most I ever did at PMP was 14 miles I think and I didn't get the target on the day.

Yeah, I've had a couple of cracks at an lsr/MP session this time, one of 8 and the other 10 (@ MP) and being slightly dissatisfied with both for different reasons. The plan has this as the big last training week, with 2 of taper, whereas I'm more used to a 3 week taper. Three big sessions: a 4x3 MP, 15M MLR, 20M LR w 10@MP. A little voice is telling me I could do 22 instead, because I've only one of those done, but I think nailing the other session would give me more confidence. I dunno. Maybe I should talk to coach Myles.

AuldManKing

davedanon wrote: »

So what is people's opinion of something like a key P&D session, such as 20/22 w 10/12 @MP?

For me Its something that I lacked in previous marathons and I think I paid for it, so I'm looking to correct it this time around.

I used the FD10 as a LSR/MP run and it worked out pretty good I must say.
I only ran 7 before hand and 1 after so 18 in total - but the MP miles felt more comfortable in a race environment.

For the HM in the PP, I'll probably do 6-7 beforehand and aim for 13@MP with 1m CD for 21.

The 3/4 Mara also offers another opportunity for a similar session in a race env.

If I was to do this in a training environment I think I would struggle.

dublin runner

BeepBeep67 wrote:

Looking back to when I followed the JD plan (almost to the letter), I really think I was overcooked by the time the marathon came along

I will have to get that book. I have read a bit and it seems like a real 'make our break' type plan(s). I prefer to think long-term and would actively avoid a programme that will most probably break me. Maybe I don't want to hurt though!

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

Now whether that's splitting up the MP miles, as KC suggests, or mixing in some faster surges or even maybe a 7E+7Steady+7MP, where you're getting 14 near MP and doing the last ones on fairly tired legs. Depends on the person.
Most I ever did at PMP was 14 miles I think and I didn't get the target on the day.

I wasn't suggesting breaking up the MP miles (are you thinking of the tempo or alternating sessions?). I ran the 3 x 5 miles with 800m steady (20 miles total including warm-up and crawl home) last Saturday, after tussling with all sorts of ideas of doing it as part of a race, running it on the treadmill, getting someone to jump in and pace me, re-structure it, postpone it. While it guarantees nothing, I'm at least in a happier place for just grinding it out on my own, on the road. Sometimes you just have to grind out a result on your own. The 3x5 with 800m steady, is easier mentally - if not physically, than doing a flat 15. Bear in mind, there is no recovery. Your heart rate should not drop substantially. I've often done the flat 15 and have typically finished pretty close to my goal, but variety in a training plan (for me) is massively important. Having followed the JD Plan A a number of times, the idea of facing into those same sessions builds repugnance and fear in equal measure and same goes for that 15 miles @PMP.

There's definitely room in marathon training for those types of sessions. They're pretty brutal, but sometimes you just need to tough it out. Yields great benefits, both in terms of training and confidence. Worth remembering that on the day, you're aiming for 26 miles miles at marathon pace. The hope is that the taper, the race environment and sheer determination will provide the extra impetus needed to cover the complete distance at goal pace.

davedanon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The hope is that the taper, the race environment and sheer determination will provide the extra impetus needed to cover the complete distance at goal pace.

Yeah, all that. The way I visualise it is that the race environment puts you in the perfect frame of mind for an all-out effort, and the taper brings you to the start line fully rested (for the only time in the whole cycle apart from right at the start)
and this causes the crucial slight improvement in running economy which makes the difference between a slight struggle to 10/12 @MP, and a full marathon with at least 18/20 in relative comfort. If I'm struggling at all before 20 miles, it doesn't bode well for me.

Clearlier

overpronator wrote: »

Yeah i think youre right, have completed that session before (it hung over for me for days beforehand) but i did it at HMP, it was still a monster but i did go out and run a half 10 days later at that same pace. Race was was easier than the session too. It was a serious confidence booster and its what gave me the confidence to settle on a sub 3 target.

For people at the faster end, 2.50 and quicker its just not feasible imo.

If you took LT as whatever pace you can run for an hour at though the faster you are the 'easier' it is as if for example you run 5 min miles you'll be doing 35 mins of your 60 mins pace whereas if you're running 9 min miles (obviously not on this thread!) you won't complete the session as 7 miles takes 63 mins. I think that Krusty's point about the changing paces in JD's plans is very relevant.

hot buttered scones

Ah jaysyus! I made a hames of the P+D 7 mile LT the other day, but then I read this discussion and felt a bit better to know I wasn't alone in my struggles. Then I read on and now the 18w/14@MP in a couple of weeks is hanging over me like a dark cloud!

Great thread btw - I'm not anywhere near a sub 3, but its interesting to read how different workouts suit different people better and how people adapt programmes to suit themselves. There's a lot to be learned from this thread, even if your not sub 3.

davedanon

Oh sure. I'm not sub-3 either.