The Sub 3 Support Thread

conavitzky

If this thread doesn't win thread of the year I'm giving up. Brilliant little nuggets of information here from day 1. A good day at the office for me. 8 minute pb for 2:46:30 gun time. 2 minute negative split and hopefully national O-35 team gold to add to the same honours in national half.
I'm leaving you there now sweet marathon, our brief love affair is over for good. Been nice knowing you!

DC.

2:58 for me yesterday & what a day it was for running. Absolutely brilliant.

Dublin was world class.

Subzero3

2.50 for me, thanks for giving me the nudge I needed to up my game

yaboya1

Some real success stories yesterday from this excellent thread.
Keep up the good work everyone!

ploughon

djemba djemba wrote: »

Boom 2.57.58 today. Was a lurker more than a contributor, but thanks for all the help. No words can explain that feeling crossing the line

"2:53:32 for me today.. delighted"

"Landed the sub 3 today and as I said on the event thread, much of the credit goes to Boards and specifically this thread. Pfitzinger deserves a shout out too. I'll post a report on my sorely neglected log over the next week or so."

"If this thread doesn't win thread of the year I'm giving up. Brilliant little nuggets of information here from day 1. A good day at the office for me. 8 minute pb for 2:46:30 gun time. 2 minute negative split and hopefully national O-35 team gold to add to the same honours in national half.
I'm leaving you there now sweet marathon, our brief love affair is over for good. Been nice knowing you!"


"2.50 for me, thanks for giving me the nudge I needed to up my game"


"2:58 for me yesterday & what a day it was for running. Absolutely brilliant.
Dublin was world class."



CONGRATS to everyone of you, brilliant running. I hope you are all basking in the afterglow...enjoy it, you have surely earned it.

When the dust settles I look forward to the race reports and any nuggets you can share with those of us who are still on the sub 3 bus, and aren't sure how many stops there will be until we get off!!

Congrats again.

ger664

Sandwell wrote: »

I ended up doing 22 at 7:40 pace. Happy enough with that. Coincidentally, I just spotted a clubmate on Strava who is also shooting for sub 3 in DCM. He ran the full 3/4 marathon today at 6:40 pace. It'll be interesting to see how he goes in 3 weeks.

Congrats to everyone yesterday. I would like to know how your clubmate faired out ?

Sandwell

ger664 wrote: »

Congrats to everyone yesterday. I would like to know how your clubmate faired out ?

He finished about a minute ahead of me so there goes the accepted wisdom about not racing the Kilomarathon!

martyboy48

conavitzky wrote: »

If this thread doesn't win thread of the year I'm giving up. Brilliant little nuggets of information here from day 1. A good day at the office for me. 8 minute pb for 2:46:30 gun time. 2 minute negative split and hopefully national O-35 team gold to add to the same honours in national half.
I'm leaving you there now sweet marathon, our brief love affair is over for good. Been nice knowing you!

I'll be honest, when TbL(I think it was him) who reignited this thread, I was immediately engrossed in it.
I'm far from a sub 3 at the moment, but believe I can be in the future.

Actually, I'll call it now, I'm on the sub 3 bus officially. That is the goal for now. PB last year 3:18 (DCM'15), DCM'16 3:47:eek:

Brief backround, started mid 2012 (491 miles), 2013 (1434 miles), 2014 (2128 miles), 2015 (2407 miles), 2016 (1850 so far, few niggles)...

Deciding on the best approach. All my running so far is by myself. Deciding between club involvement, or heart rate training....
The question for me is, heart rate training is more personal focused, where club training lets you get involved in groups ect... Decisions decisions

Anyway, back on topic, this thread probably should win thread of the year because it is the one thread where there is no BS, no sniping, *no unnecessary backslapping, and no agendas other than our
main goal, sub 3


* backslapping is acceptable in the right context, ie, someone giving it a fair rattle and coming short ect ect....

Thewitheredowl

To all in here trying to hit sub 3, I just completed Dublin marathon, my first marathon. I completed it in just under 3h30m. I've been reading this thread a bit over the last few weeks just to see what it takes to get to the next level, and I have to say, in the last 10k of the race when I was hurting I thought a couple of times about what you lot are achieving/trying to achieve and the respect I have for you has multiplied 10 fold.

CR 7

Time to spoil all the success stories from Sunday.:pac: I got to 18 miles at 3:00 pace before slipping back to finish in 3:03:55. Added a report to the DCM thread.

So it's back to the drawing board sort-of. I'll be having another go at 3 hours, probably in Cork in June. In the meantime I'll be focusing on a few shorter races for a few months, then switch back to more marathon specific stuff around Feb/March.

dna_leri

I posted a report on my old log here.

I'll add some post-race thoughts later.

kerrylad1

My fourth sub 3 in a row,but f**K me,one of the toughest yet.I more or less did most of my training on the treadmill,because it was just one injury after another.The whole cycle,I did 40/45 miles very slow on the treadmill,8K speed, plus my long run every Saturday outdoors,to bring mileage upto 62/70 miles aweek.The only speed work I did was from 12 weeks out.20 mile long run with,last 12 at MP,3weeks later,20 with last 14 at MP,then 4 weeks out I did 20 with last 16 at 6:38.This last long MP run gave me the confidence I could blag a sub 3. I then managed to get a abdomen muscle tear,so all I did was 10 K,s at 8 K speed on DREADmill for the last 3 weeks.I decided to line up behind the 3:10 pacers,but just before the gun went off,I said f**K it,go for it,and off I went for another sub 3 attempt.I felt terrible for the first 6/7 miles and taught about stopping,my stomach was killing me.I then popped a painkiller and said I'd pull out at halfway,if it didn't ease up.At about mile 11/12 it kicked in and while I could feel it niggle away,it wasn't enough to stop me in my tracks.I got to halfway around 1:30:10.Nothing to worry about,I always finish strong(how wrong was I).Kept plugging away,around 6:45,s from here until mile 23.The devil then decided to jump on my shoulder,stop son,slow down,uve done 3 sub 3,'s,who gives a sh**.Age has caught up with you,etc,etc.I was with him in hell for the last 2 miles.My wife gave me a big shout-out at mile 25.I could barley acknowledge her,I was in a bad place.Just as I felt like stopping,I saw the 3 hour balloons around 200 yards ahead.I knew from experience they would be around a minute ahead of schedule,so I gave it every thing I had left,over the last 400 metres,to go under the clock at 2:59:58,chip 2:59:42.2 Minute's slower than my p.b in Limerick,but considering the circumstances with regards injuries,and lack of outdoor running,it's probably my best marathon out of the 8 I have done.

jonnner

I was going to post a race report for DCM 2016 but thought it might be better to write something that adds to this thread and maybe starts a conversation.
A bit of background..... I've been running a few years now. DCM 13 was the first race I ever entered and I finished just under 4hrs, I followed that up with a 3:35 in 2014. I followed Hal Higdon novice/intermediate plans for both.
Last year I got my sub 3 after following P&D 55mi plan and the advice in this thread.
I then spent the winter trying to get quicker at the 5k-10k distances, but without a structured plan not a huge amount of progress happened.
For DCM this year I stepped up to the 70mi plan and set myself a goal of sub 2:50.
Although the step up in mileage wasn't easy I started to see good gains in efficiency and speed. I achieved PB's in the tuneup races, and with the Mcmillian Calculator pointing towards a 2:45 I decided to give it a bash.....
Normally i wouldn't be confident in going for a McMillian estimated time, but with weather conditions perfect I went for it and sure enough I ran an even pace and hit my target 2:45 target :-)

So the question is...... where do I go from here?
For sure my goal is to come back and run a big PB in Dublin next year.
Having had so much success with P&D I've picked up a copy of Pfitzingers 5k to HM Road Racing and am thinking along the lines of a 50mi 10k plan. This would start in a few weeks time and take me through to maybe January where I could then switch to a HM plan. Or would I be better doing a 5k plan first and then moving on to a 10k plan before starting marathon training again?
I guess the question is... when we get to sub 3 level, how do we take it on further? Do we think about doing 2 marathons a year and hope to see gains through the training cycles? Or do we work on speed at shorter distances to take into an annual marathon plan?
I know people are going to ask about a joining a club btw..... I've never been in one and because I have young kids I just can't commit to running at a certain time or day. I also enjoy running on my own.

Bahanaman

jonnner wrote:

I was going to post a race report for DCM 2016 but thought it might be better to write something that adds to this thread and maybe starts a conversation. A bit of background..... I've been running a few years now. DCM 13 was the first race I ever entered and I finished just under 4hrs, I followed that up with a 3:35 in 2014. I followed Hal Higdon novice/intermediate plans for both. Last year I got my sub 3 after following P&D 55mi plan and the advice in this thread. I then spent the winter trying to get quicker at the 5k-10k distances, but without a structured plan not a huge amount of progress happened. For DCM this year I stepped up to the 70mi plan and set myself a goal of sub 2:50. Although the step up in mileage wasn't easy I started to see good gains in efficiency and speed. I achieved PB's in the tuneup races, and with the Mcmillian Calculator pointing towards a 2:45 I decided to give it a bash..... Normally i wouldn't be confident in going for a McMillian estimated time, but with weather conditions perfect I went for it and sure enough I ran an even pace and hit my target 2:45 target :-)

jonnner wrote:

So the question is...... where do I go from here? For sure my goal is to come back and run a big PB in Dublin next year. Having had so much success with P&D I've picked up a copy of Pfitzingers 5k to HM Road Racing and am thinking along the lines of a 50mi 10k plan. This would start in a few weeks time and take me through to maybe January where I could then switch to a HM plan. Or would I be better doing a 5k plan first and then moving on to a 10k plan before starting marathon training again? I guess the question is... when we get to sub 3 level, how do we take it on further? Do we think about doing 2 marathons a year and hope to see gains through the training cycles? Or do we work on speed at shorter distances to take into an annual marathon plan? I know people are going to ask about a joining a club btw..... I've never been in one and because I have young kids I just can't commit to running at a certain time or day. I also enjoy running on my own.

jonnner wrote:

I was going to post a race report for DCM 2016 but thought it might be better to write something that adds to this thread and maybe starts a conversation. A bit of background..... I've been running a few years now. DCM 13 was the first race I ever entered and I finished just under 4hrs, I followed that up with a 3:35 in 2014. I followed Hal Higdon novice/intermediate plans for both. Last year I got my sub 3 after following P&D 55mi plan and the advice in this thread. I then spent the winter trying to get quicker at the 5k-10k distances, but without a structured plan not a huge amount of progress happened. For DCM this year I stepped up to the 70mi plan and set myself a goal of sub 2:50. Although the step up in mileage wasn't easy I started to see good gains in efficiency and speed. I achieved PB's in the tuneup races, and with the Mcmillian Calculator pointing towards a 2:45 I decided to give it a bash..... Normally i wouldn't be confident in going for a McMillian estimated time, but with weather conditions perfect I went for it and sure enough I ran an even pace and hit my target 2:45 target :-)

I hate you!! ;-)
That is some progress!

martyboy48

I'm not in the position to answer your questions, but would like to congratulate you on amazing progress (you fooker:D )

jonnner wrote: »

I guess the question is... when we get to sub 3 level, how do we take it on further? .....

A general question on previous sub 3 target(ers??)....
Sub 3 is a big goal to many,(huge to me), to others its just an arbitrary time of no real significance.

To the people who specifically targeted (and maybe had to work over a few attempts), and achieved the sub 3, was there a feeling of "that's it done", or a bit of a void, or something like, more improvement required to much more training/time/effort so not worth it???

So basically, your feelings immediately after the race, and then when the dust settled....

PaulieYifter

martyboy48 wrote: »

I'm not in the position to answer your questions, but would like to congratulate you on amazing progress (you fooker:D )

A general question on previous sub 3 target(ers??)....
Sub 3 is a big goal to many,(huge to me), to others its just an arbitrary time of no real significance.

To the people who specifically targeted (and maybe had to work over a few attempts), and achieved the sub 3, was there a feeling of "that's it done", or a bit of a void, or something like, more improvement required to much more training/time/effort so not worth it???

So basically, your feelings immediately after the race, and then when the dust settled....

Having previously run a 3:00:18 I kinda believed it was just a matter of time before I did it and when I did I felt equal measures of relief and happiness.

However I immediately wanted just to do it again - something in my head was saying sure it was just luck.

I felt job finally done then when I did it the second time (failed once in between).

I recycled the training after that without any specific goal other than to improve and felt I nailed it with a 2:56 - strongest and most comfortable marathon yet.

This year I had hoped to get closer to 2:50 but the 2 marathons I did threw up 25 degrees and ended up over 3 hrs in both. Part of me is thinking have I reached my limit and was it really the conditions.

Next up for me will be a 4th attempt at nailing the Boston course (still haven't figured it out) but I will be aiming to improve on the 2:56 in 2017.

I must admit though whilst I am still determined in training I'm not as obsessed as I was prior to sub 3.

Everyone has a sub 3 in them - the hard bit is getting it out

bigslice

Long time reader of this thread and by far the best thread on the forum imho.

After 6 marathons and a PB of 3.16 in Berlin last year, quickly followed by a 3.19 in DCM afew weeks later, i mused with the thoughts of going sub3 after seeing some similar improvements on here. Had followed P&D 55m 12 week programme and felt for the effort going in, the results had probably maxed out. Something had to change.

Kept going and over the spring maintaining an average enough weekly mileage and in April got a coach and a 6 month, sub3 plan.

Straight away the miles increased, lots of variety with Tempo runs at MP from the start and decent mileage for interval runs. To help this i was more disciplined in terms of food, water and late nights. It was tough going with the norm been 7 days a week training but really stuck at it, hit all the required paces and rarely missed a run, ignoring niggles and tiredness.

Thankfully it all paid off. The week before DCM was a complete headspinner with Taper madness taking hold. The Taper itself was short and sharp of about 10 days but had a 16m run with 4 at MP seven days out from Marathon day. Felt over-cooked for rest of week and any runs felt a struggle.

On the day, the first 10 miles felt a battle but gradually got a decent pace going and grew into the run. Finished with a negative split of about 1min 20s and a finish time of 2.58.20 and was delighted to hit sub3 at first attempt. A tough, hard plan really stood to me and always felt like i was running on tired legs but they never let me down.

Some great advice and stories on here and be happy to help anyone if they have specific questions.

No idea what is next but time will tell. Have taken huge chunks of PB's all along the training and will hope to take another bit off over the next few months to maintain a decent level of fitness.

Enduro

martyboy48 wrote: »

A general question on previous sub 3 target(ers??)....
Sub 3 is a big goal to many,(huge to me), to others its just an arbitrary time of no real significance.

To the people who specifically targeted (and maybe had to work over a few attempts), and achieved the sub 3, was there a feeling of "that's it done", or a bit of a void, or something like, more improvement required to much more training/time/effort so not worth it???

So basically, your feelings immediately after the race, and then when the dust settled....

I targetted sub 3 on my first marathon (Dublin) and got it. To be honest I never repeated the sense of satisfaction I got from that time with any other subsequent lowering of my PB... I only replicated the effect by running more difficult marathons in good times (Snowdonia in 2:52 I count as my best marathon performance), or running for position rather than time. My PB was achieved 4 years (and 4 marathons) later, with a 2:41 that included a 2-3 minute stop in the middle (Dublin again). But even knowing I could easily improve on my PB I just wasn't motivated enough. I reckoned I could target sub 2:30, but I was kinds thinking "so what"... without getting to sub 2:20 and being competive at national level it was all just shuffling about in mid-pack, being realistic (to myself).

So in the end I left road marathons and marathon PB chasing behind, as I was more interested and more motivated by other things (No regrets either).

That might sound negative, but it isn't meant to be. That first sub 3 marathon was possibly the most important race I ever ran from my own point of view in my progress as a runner.

conavitzky

I’ve decided to place a pre-marathon build up and report over on the race report thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101545441#post101545441. Hopefully, it can help anyone looking to go sub 3 as a guide to the type of training that was successful for me for two years in a row. It’s a bit rambling and long so apologies in advance. I promise you the actual race report will be short as I can never remember anything from races!!

jonnner

martyboy48 wrote: »

I'm not in the position to answer your questions, but would like to congratulate you on amazing progress (you fooker:D )

A general question on previous sub 3 target(ers??)....
Sub 3 is a big goal to many,(huge to me), to others its just an arbitrary time of no real significance.

To the people who specifically targeted (and maybe had to work over a few attempts), and achieved the sub 3, was there a feeling of "that's it done", or a bit of a void, or something like, more improvement required to much more training/time/effort so not worth it???

So basically, your feelings immediately after the race, and then when the dust settled....

First of all thanks for the compliment :-)

In the run up to DCM 15 I can't tell you how focused (or maybe obsessed!) I became about going sub 3. I fantasised about that moment of crossing the line under 3hrs all the time.
When the actual moment came it played out exactly as it had in my head, which felt surreal.
For this reason I think it can be a big help to try and visualise your target regularly in the run up to the race. Same goes for during the race when the going gets tough.
In the following days I remember being a little down. I don't know if it was exhaustion or the fact that what I had been focusing on for so long was now complete.
But then when I took time to reflect, I thought about the big picture and how far I had come in my running. I had always thought a sub 3 marathon was impossible and not for the likes of me, but having achieved it I decided I wanted to set another target that also felt suitably impossible. I picked 2:45 as a target for 2016. I looked at the McMillian calculator to see what type of 5k and 10k times I would need and yes sure enough they looked ridiculous.
After working on speed over the winter I was disappointed to see race results only pointing to a predicted McMillan marathon time of 2:50. I just felt this wasn't going to give me as much satisfaction as the first sub 3 had.
I decided I'd step up in mileage and do P&D 70mi plan. I worked really hard at the Sessions and thankfully reaped the rewards.
In the end the 2:45 every bit as good as the sub 3 :-)

echancrure

martyboy48 wrote: »

To the people who specifically targeted (and maybe had to work over a few attempts), and achieved the sub 3, was there a feeling of "that's it done", or a bit of a void, or something like, more improvement required to much more training/time/effort so not worth it???

So basically, your feelings immediately after the race, and then when the dust settled....

Well after I achieved my sub 3 in Cork June 2015 (P&D up to 55m) I certainly hit the blues in terms of running. I felt that it was it, and that I would not be able to go lower so what was the point of training hard?

I ran and paced with my wife instead as she had just taken up running. My form went down and my weight went up. But at least my wife was improving!

My lowest point physically was probably in Waterford AC half in January this year (got delayed because of floods) where I ran a terrible 1:37 and felt awful.

I plodded along until after the summer holidays. I ran but did not train for Cork this year.

At the start of August though, with 12 weeks to go for DCM, I decided to train properly, I was 6Kg above my Cork weight and running 30'' per mile slower in training. I took up P&D up to 70m. That was my challenge.

Only with a goal in mind was I able to train properly. The weight came down and the pace increased. And in the end I ran 2:49 in DCM.

This time, I know I can go faster and I although I'll take it easy until the new year, I am determined not to let my form go down too much and my weight up too much. I'll still train on my own and probably stick to P&D 70m as it seems to work for me: I just want to start the 12 weeks cycle before DCM in better form and weight.

For me an interesting target is to do better in my age group (M45) as well as improve my time. Also finishing in the top 10 in some the less well attended marathons looks attractive.

I know chasing PBs all the time can be soul destroying but I have not reached that point yet and improving my time is my main motivation especially since I know I did not run my best in DCM this year.

ooter

P&D seems to get mentioned a lot in here and has brought a lot of success, I used the 55 mile plan to get my PB at DCM 14 but was still a bit off my sub 3 target. Injuries have hampered me since that day and I'm further away now than I ever was but the dream goes on, would love to have a serious crack at it next year if fitness allowed.
Congrats to those who nailed a sub 3 last sunday, great achievement.

kerrylad1

I think the first time anyone nails the sub 3 will always be the best.I've gone quicker,but no way did it feel any better.(AT THE FINISH LINE )Sunday I was delighted to dip under it again.But as the week progresses,I'm kicking myself for not sticking to my original plan and going with the 3:10 pacers,and enjoying the day.The crowds,weather,everything was perfect for a great experience.I hated every minute of Sunday's run,I wasn't fit enough to be going for it.It was just one niggle after another in the build up, but luck was my side,big-time.As for goals,Sub 2:55 and then I will retireðŸ˜႒

Djoucer

martyboy48 wrote: »

To the people who specifically targeted (and maybe had to work over a few attempts), and achieved the sub 3, was there a feeling of "that's it done", or a bit of a void, or something like, more improvement required to much more training/time/effort so not worth it???

So basically, your feelings immediately after the race, and then when the dust settled....

Initial feelings was to immediately build on it. The training plan worked so no reason why you can't go quicker, 2.50, 2.40 and so on.

Changes your outlook on running, it gives you a huge sense of belief in your self. You run a little taller, become more ambitious and willing to push yourself harder and harder.

But then there's a big dose of reality when you realise how hard it is to knock off 10 mins the marathon, from 2.59 and so on.

And that wasn't for me. I think marathon training can suck the joy out of running. The training cycles can become relentless and it really restricts running opportunities to pounding the road.

I went same way as Enduro and moved to other things (mountain/trail running) rather than try to continually lower it.

That said, the "how low could I go" question is always at the back of my mind.

DC.

Sunday was my second sub3 marathon & I can echo the comments about the second not feeling the same. I feel I had a better race this year, negative split certainly is the way to do it.

It was the most 'comfortable' marathon I've ever done, which I'm putting down good training & 8 previous marathons. The plan now is to stay injury free over the winter & have a real good go at London. I feel I can get under 2:50.

Entered Dublin 2017 this morning

martyboy48

Djoucer wrote: »

Initial feelings was to immediately build on it. The training plan worked so no reason why you can't go quicker, 2.50, 2.40 and so on.

1 Changes your outlook on running, it gives you a huge sense of belief in your self. You run a little taller, become more ambitious and willing to push yourself harder and harder.

2 But then there's a big dose of reality when you realise how hard it is to knock off 10 mins the marathon, from 2.59 and so on.

And that wasn't for me. I think marathon training can suck the joy out of running. The training cycles can become relentless and it really restricts running opportunities to pounding the road.

3 I went same way as Enduro and moved to other things (mountain/trail running) rather than try to continually lower it.

***That said, the "how low could I go" question is always at the back of my mind.

This post pretty much echoes what I was thinking, and to a certain extent, what people have replied with....

So, if I'm reading it right, when the dust settles, there can be(not always) a bit of a crossroads....

Are you happy to keep to this level and maintain(you are already awesome)??

Are you willing to put in more graft and realise your true potential at road marathons with your new(higher) sense of belief in yourself.(Sub 3 easy)??

Are you done with this quest which has taken a lot of time and effort over multiple cycles.... "Hit my target" and change of direction.. ie Trail/AR/Ultra??

From what I've read it more or less is what I expected...
Hit your first sub 3, indescribable delight....

When the dust settles you realise how far you have come from when you started(apart from Enduro ) and have an even increased belief n your ability and potential..

Maybe a bit of a lull, lost feeling afterwards while you decide what the next step/goal is... This is where the individual aspect comes to play...
Stay??? Progress??? Change focus/target???

I suppose, on reflection, it's something we all need to go through when the time comes...
No guidance can be given, it's not to dwell on before you achieve your sub 3... You just have to follow your heart and go with what you want to do after...

It was nice to get an insight into each of yer experiences though, anymore are welcome

RayCun

sub 3 is a milestone (and a big one!), but it's not a finish line

pconn062

RayCun wrote: »

sub 3 is a milestone (and a big one!), but it's not a finish line

Exactly, it's like breaking 5 mins for the mile and saying "ok, that's fast enough, onto new things". No reason you can't recover from the marathon, spend 6 months improving your shorter times (a lot of people skip this part) then do another marathon cycle and aim big. It's much easier to consider breaking 2.50 if you have run 16-17 mins for 5k or 35-36 for 10k.

dna_leri

or you can decide that having met that milestone, there is no need to run another marathon.
It is only 1 distance and there are many more with equally challenging milestones.
The 10 round numbers is a good place to start.

The other benefit of shorter distances is that you can actually race against other people.
The marathon is a bit of a "we're all in it together" racing against the clock kind of race.
In shorter distances there is more of a focus on beating the runner ahead of you.

RayCun

ah yeah, there's always the possibility of continuing to run, but doing something crazy like switching from marathons to the 800m