The Sub 3 Support Thread

Duanington

AMK - had similar issues last year with my calf\achilles.

A good sports massage worked out the tightness\soreness and from there on it was a case of managing it with heel drops and some glute work actually....squats once per week etc....lazy arse putting the burden on the calf muscles when running.

Haven't had any problems since so its done the trick for me

Enduro

Itziger wrote: »

I have a sneaky suspicion that none of that stuff works! I have taken and probably will again in the upcoming marathon(s) but the jury is very much out.

I have a sneaking suspicion you're correct

As I regularly point out on this forum, the Irish marathon record was set without any use of gels or other sports gunk.

It's a good illustration of the (IMO) reality that by far the biggest factors in being successful at any running event are (1) natural ability and (2) an enormous amount of consistant focussed hard work.

Everything else is details... tinkering at the edges. There are (literally and metaphorically) no magic beans out there to overcome that (Even PEDs will only be effective when added on top of the fundamentals).

That's not to say that there isn't some possible minor gains to be made by using gels and other overpriced sports gunk. More than likely that is as a result of "the pickle juice effect", given the speed at which people seem to percieve the effect. If that's the case then a few Jellies (or whatever) would more than likely be just as effective, but considerably cheaper and tastier!

echancrure

Regarding gels: I have to disagree as they work for me.

I can run at good pace (7:20) for 15-17 miles without them, but beyond that I have a high risk of hitting the wall as has happened to me quite a few times in training (not a pleasant experience...).

So for any run beyond 15m I take my own gel with me. I may take one or two. For a full marathon I take three. I have never hit the wall with them.

As to the brand etc. I make my own (cheaper and I know what I am taking). One gel is 2 tbsp runny honey, 0.5 tsp molasses, some salt (or the content of one saltstick plus tablet), espresso (to make it liquid and add more caffeine). I put all that in a pouch and carry in a belt.

Nice to taste (if you like coffee), no messing with salt tablets (they are diluted in the gel).

I don't exactly 'get a boost' immediately after taking a gel, and maybe if I was a top athlete I would not need it, but for me that recipe and dose works as otherwise I hit the wall when running at speed.

AuldManKing

AuldManKing wrote: »

On the last rep I felt a tightness in my lower calf and called a halt to the session, easy jogged back to the car.

I couldn't run Thursday and probably wont over the weekend.

pconn062 wrote: »

That's good, I'm guessing soleus/tib posterior tightness, hopefully nothing too serious for you.

Carlsberg dont do Sports therapists.......

Limped into my ST on Friday afternoon, contrast bathing for the evening.
11 miles on Sat. No issues.

Bit of a diva??

paddybarry

For those doing the half marathon and DCM, would you

1. Race Half or
2. Run it at PMP

Reading Tom Waits log, OP and AMK suggest the latter.

I'm kind of now thinking along those lines myself for reasons suggested.
Have not 'raced' in well over a year so was going to race the half to give me a better guide as to what my PMP should be. I like the idea of running 7 miles before hand and then doing 13 PMP.

Bahanaman

Why not do the first 10 miles @ mp and race the last 5k. That way you get both types of work out. You'll feel what the mp effort is like for a good chunk of road and you still get the extra zip of a race at the end.

dublin runner

paddybarry wrote:

1. Race Half or 2. Run it at PMP

Race it. See what happens. It should provide a good indicator of form etc. Plenty of time to recover after. A much better training stimulus imo.

PaulieYifter

AuldManKing wrote: »

Carlsberg dont do Sports therapists.......

Limped into my ST on Friday afternoon, contrast bathing for the evening.
11 miles on Sat. No issues.

Bit of a diva??

Bit of a diva is right.

By the way - from a data sample of one - a 1:24 half in Athlone translates into a 2:56 marathon in San Seb

Itziger

Other than the Berliners (jammy bastids), this was probably a fairly intense weekend for most here.

I ended up doing 36k consisting of 12 Easy + 21 @PMP and 3k crawl home. I'm wondering what a coach would make of it.

Positives: After two heavy (for me) weeks of 120 and 112 kms. On my feet for about 3.5 hours last night at a party where I didn't drink much, but did have a few. Was running at planned M pace into the 30's in kilometres

Negatives: Felt fairly shattered after it. Wonder where the other 21k at that pace are supposed to come from. Minor fade in last few kms.

Itziger

Question for Krusty,

I have a wedding next weekend and will be flying and driving - well, being driven - for most of the time. I'm thinking of doing a last long run say Tuesday week. That will be 19 days before the marathon. Not too late for something like your 3x5miles, is it?

I would probably adapt your session and make the 800 metres steady into 500 E. Would that take the stuffing out of the workout? Ta in advance.

dublin runner

If I may prempt his response, 19 days out is way too late. Sure, you may nail it but the risk vs. reward is far too great heading into the taper (2 weeks). He may of course disagree!

Too much too late in short imo.

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

Question for Krusty,

I have a wedding next weekend and will be flying and driving - well, being driven - for most of the time. I'm thinking of doing a last long run say Tuesday week. That will be 19 days before the marathon. Not too late for something like your 3x5miles, is it?

I would probably adapt your session and make the 800 metres steady into 500 E. Would that take the stuffing out of the workout? Ta in advance.

Does seem a little close to race day, for something that has previously been hypothesized as over-kill for targeting sub-3, particularly given that you have 22.5 miles with 13 miles @PMP under your belt from earlier today. Comparing to today's session, you'd essentially be sacrificing a couple of your early miles to add to the MP miles, so the net difference from today's run would be quite small. If you need one last confidence booster, Magness' final big MP session (4 x 3 miles with 800 steady) should be both achievable (given today's effort) and present a reduced risk. Better to get to the start line in good shape (he said ruefully).

dna_leri

Status update:
I missed a few days at the start of the month due to family priority but other than that I have been consistently getting 55-70 miles per week with 5-6 runs over 19mi. Starting to feel more comfortable at PMP also. Ran a hilly HM at the weekend in 1:26. Plan was to run first half at MP and then pick it up in second half. Ran most of the race solo and pretty much kept to plan or a bit faster. Finished strong and managed 10K cool-down. Plan to do something similar at 10M race next week, then keep the head down until the day.

@ DR / KC - From previous discussion, if 19 days is too short, when would you recommend doing 3x5 mi session? [Not saying I am going to do it, just wondering as I would have expected that just short of 3wks was ample recovery.]

Subzero3

Well lads after getting a boot up the arse from a few of yerselfs I dropped pmp down to 6:30 for a 2.50xx marathon. Got 3 long runs under my belt and milage 50-60 miles the last 5 weeks.

Skipped double tempos for pmp runs in midweek, did 6 mile, 10,12 and 13.HR Had about 15-20 beats spare in those runs. On my Last long run did few seconds faster then pmp for the last 6 mile. Tired but felt good afterwards.

Xc coming up. Is it OK to do long runs after race day or am I mad to to be racing.

Itziger

dna_leri wrote: »

Status update:
I missed a few days at the start of the month due to family priority but other than that I have been consistently getting 55-70 miles per week with 5-6 runs over 19mi. Starting to feel more comfortable at PMP also. Ran a hilly HM at the weekend in 1:26. Plan was to run first half at MP and then pick it up in second half. Ran most of the race solo and pretty much kept to plan or a bit faster. Finished strong and managed 10K cool-down. Plan to do something similar at 10M race next week, then keep the head down until the day.

@ DR / KC - From previous discussion, if 19 days is too short, when would you recommend doing 3x5 mi session? [Not saying I am going to do it, just wondering as I would have expected that just short of 3wks was ample recovery.]

It will obviously depend on the individual but I'm inclined to think the same. In previous years I think I've overdone the taper and had left too big a gap between last 'hardish' long run and the race itself. I'll see how things go but I do intend to do something decent around that time. Without the social commitment at the weekend I would have done the run on Sunday. I'm tossing up between the HM/M mixed pace workout or a standard M pace.

One other question. As a person who doesn't convert 10k and Half times to the full too well, is it more beneficial to do Easy+M pace or would I be better off trying a Long run of say 30k at M+5% pace?

Krusty_Clown

dna_leri wrote: »

@ DR / KC - From previous discussion, if 19 days is too short, when would you recommend doing 3x5 mi session? [Not saying I am going to do it, just wondering as I would have expected that just short of 3wks was ample recovery.]

Hi Kevin, it really depends on how you have handled MP sessions in the build up. If you've managed 10-12 at MP and they've been comfortable (feel like you could do another few miles at that pace) then go for it, just allow plenty time to recover (three weeks). If you're killing yourself to get to 12-13 miles, then extending it to 15 with 2.5 weeks to go isn't really going to do you any favours.

If, like Itziger you're worried about leaving too big a gap from the last long session to race day, it's worth pointing out that taper isn't about cutting out quality - it's about cutting it down. I think the Magness plan is a good example of how to do taper the right way (again, bearing in mind the plan is for high mileage marathoners runners, so should be scaled down).
Two weeks out: 4x3 @MP w/800 steady (as suggested maybe three weeks out would be more suitable)
11 Days out: 7 miles@MP w/1min surge to LT/mile (scale back to 3-4 miles @MP?)
7 Days out: 6 miles @MP (scale back to 10 miles with 10 mins pickup to MP at end?)
4 Days out: 7 miles easy with 10 mins @MP (scale back to 5 mins @MP?)

Something along those lines. As Rolex pointed out in my log, levels of fitness reduce very, very gradually. Injuries on the other hand....

runrayrun

Hi,

So I think I know the answer to this question but I am going to ask it anyway because there are much more experienced runners here than me.

I am doing the P&D 55 plan with a hope of going sub 3.05 in Dublin. Training was going well and ran a 1.28 in Cashel which puts me in the ball park for my target in Dublin. I didn't run all out at Cashel so its promising.

I didn't miss one run until last week when I wasn't feeling great so I missed the 12 mile mid week run. Then I did my first race as part of the program which went ok 24.02 in a 4 mile. Then on Sunday I tried my 17 mile long run and illness was back so I only ran 2 miles. Still not perfect today so I am probably going to miss today and tomorrow also.

I know some missed runs are OK and over the 18 week program missing 4 or 5 runs is not a big deal, but I am freaking out a bit due to the fact that I am so close to the taper that I am missing key runs. My own thoughts are take the 2 days off this week and start back Friday with the 18 mile run with 14 at MP on Sunday being the key run at this point.

What is your experience with missing key runs at this point in training cycle? Will it effect my race or am I being dramatic?

Thanks in advance

Plodman

runrayrun wrote: »

Hi,

So I think I know the answer to this question but I am going to ask it anyway because there are much more experienced runners here than me.

I am doing the P&D 55 plan with a hope of going sub 3.05 in Dublin. Training was going well and ran a 1.28 in Cashel which puts me in the ball park for my target in Dublin. I didn't run all out at Cashel so its promising.

I didn't miss one run until last week when I wasn't feeling great so I missed the 12 mile mid week run. Then I did my first race as part of the program which went ok 24.02 in a 4 mile. Then on Sunday I tried my 17 mile long run and illness was back so I only ran 2 miles. Still not perfect today so I am probably going to miss today and tomorrow also.

I know some missed runs are OK and over the 18 week program missing 4 or 5 runs is not a big deal, but I am freaking out a bit due to the fact that I am so close to the taper that I am missing key runs. My own thoughts are take the 2 days off this week and start back Friday with the 18 mile run with 14 at MP on Sunday being the key run at this point.

What is your experience with missing key runs at this point in training cycle? Will it effect my race or am I being dramatic?

Thanks in advance

Getting to the start line healthy is the most important thing at this stage. All your training to date will have gone to waste if you jeopardise it by failing to give your body time to get better.
Id take a few days off and get a few easy runs done before the PMP session. Just be aware that you may feel fresh for the long run so be careful not to run too hard. Keep an eye on pace.

Plans are all very well but in any training cycle they need to be modified for illness, other commitments etc.
Don't fret; you are in good shape as evidenced by your HM. Just recover and get to the start line in one piece. Good Luck!

Enduro

A plan is just a plan. It's a very useful guideline. Its a definite aid to establish the discipline to get out training regularly, with focussed sessions. But its not the be all and end all.

The fact that there are multiple plans out there should be enough to tell you that there is no one right way of doing things. Deviating here and there from a plan is unlikely to be disastrous.

IMO plans are most useful to help you gain the knowledge of how to train effectively. If you develop your own understanding of the reason for the vairous sessions in the plan, why it is structed the way it is, and how it changes over time, then you should get to the level where you no longer need to follow a generic plan, but can structure your own plan to better suit your own specific target (or have a coach do it for you). Adaptability has to be a part of any such plan since life is never ideal... shoite happens!

So basically, don't fret about deviating from the plan. Remember the fundamental goal of the plan is to get your body to adapt so it can run your target race more effectively. There are bigger factors than ridgidly following a plan at play. One of those factors is being mentally "up for it", and being over-focussed on sticking precisely to a plan can cause more harm than good there.

Bahanaman

Enduro wrote:

So basically, don't fret about deviating from the plan. Remember the fundamental goal of the plan is to get your body to adapt so it can run your target race more effectively. There are bigger factors than ridgidly following a plan at play. One of those factors is being mentally "up for it", and being over-focussed on sticking precisely to a plan can cause more harm than good there.

Wish I could do this!!

runrayrun

Thanks Enduro / Plodman,

Very similar advice that I would give to someone else and I know its true. I just need to take it easy and view the time as a recovery period that could very well benefit me.

Itziger

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Might have to go with pacemaker if the problem persists. I'm too young for a pacemaker!!!!

Lads, especially my fellow middle aged runners, keep an eye on the health from time to time.

conavitzky

Itziger wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Might have to go with pacemaker if the problem persists. I'm too young for a pacemaker!!!!

Lads, especially my fellow middle aged runners, keep an eye on the health from time to time.

Look after yourself boy.

ger664

Itziger wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Might have to go with pacemaker if the problem persists. I'm too young for a pacemaker!!!!

Lads, especially my fellow middle aged runners, keep an eye on the health from time to time.

Agree with above hope it works out for you.

ThebitterLemon

Itziger wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Might have to go with pacemaker if the problem persists. I'm too young for a pacemaker!!!!

Lads, especially my fellow middle aged runners, keep an eye on the health from time to time.

Ffs D!!!

That's desperately unlucky. Hopefully it's not too serious.

At your age a pacemaker should be a lad you follow to a sub 3 not a medical device!!!

Look after yourself

TbL

Itziger

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Ffs D!!!

That's desperately unlucky. Hopefully it's not too serious.

At your age a pacemaker should be a lad you follow to a sub 3 not a medical device!!!

Look after yourself

TbL

Ah, man, when it was first mentioned you can just imagine what popped into my head: (Unsaid: Can it be set to 4.15 km/min?)

The $hite you have to put up with from colleagues and 'friends' though... "I always knew you ran too much, that can't be good for you". Yeah, and for the last 9 years and previous ten marathons it doesn't seem to have been a problem. I'm not saying I won't take the whole thing seriously, I will. But I'll consider all options on the continuing running at a certain level front. What I basically need is a cardiologist in his mid-50's who does a lot of running

ploughon

Itziger wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Might have to go with pacemaker if the problem persists. I'm too young for a pacemaker!!!!

Lads, especially my fellow middle aged runners, keep an eye on the health from time to time.

Hey Itziger,

sorry to hear this and hoping you get back on the tarmac soon.


Mind yourself

TFBubendorfer

Itziger wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm on easy street after a problem yesterday. Had a few wobbly moments at work and they carted me off in an ambulance. Turns out the old heart beat is very low, 30 before they gave me a couple of drugs. I have to take it easy for a bit and I'm back with cardiologist next Wed. for a couple of tests. Just when I was coming into a bit of form for God sake.

Might have to go with pacemaker if the problem persists. I'm too young for a pacemaker!!!!

Lads, especially my fellow middle aged runners, keep an eye on the health from time to time.

Get better soon!

Make absolutely sure you let the cardiologist know you are an endurance athlete as that has a big effect on HR. The cardiologist needs to know that before he/she can draw any conclusions.

Itziger

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Get better soon!

Make absolutely sure you let the cardiologist know you are an endurance athlete as that has a big effect on HR. The cardiologist needs to know that before he/she can draw any conclusions.

Yeah, I told him already. It's unbelievable how ignorant some people are about training and such like. Not necessarily the specialist but some of the other docs. Some could hardly believe that I was doing more than 100kms a week. I think one of the tests next week is on a static bike. Don't know how that'll go cos I'm absolutely $hite on a bike. Results may not be conclusive!!

snailsong

Sorry to hear that, Itziger. It's the sort of news we all dread getting. Hope you get sorted and back on the sub 3 trail soon.