The Sub 3 Support Thread

CR 7

I had my first road marathon over the weekend and first "sub 3" attempt, in Achill. Although in reality, going under 3 hours was wildly overoptimistic, considering it has only been done once in the 4 years since the race began, and it happened to be this year (by a guy that looks to be a 2:45ish marathoner on regular courses after a quick Google). I managed 3:08:45, after about 1:34 for the first half.

The course consists of 2 laps of a 13.1 mile course, so I was happy to keep an even effort for both. The race itself is fantastic, for such a small race in terms of number of entrants, the organisation is as good as any of the big commercial races I've been at. Well stocked water stops at every 2/3 miles on a course that's a bit isolated in parts. And there won't be many races with as good of a view. One other important detail was that the small numbers and relaxed atmosphere allowed me to just roll out of bed half an hour before the start time and stroll the 400m or so to the line with enough time to still get a proper warm-up in. It also meant I could leave a bag right at the finish line so I only needed to carry a half marathon worth of gels.

There was a half and an ultra on the same course starting at the same time so I had a few half runners for company for the first lap to help keep pace. I could see 2 guys take off at the start and established a good lead very quickly so I just assumed they were both doing the half and left them go. As far as I know, one of these won the half, while the other was the guy that kept going and did the second lap at that pace. Once I started the 2nd lap though, I couldn't even see another runner until I started catching a few finishers of the half just before the finish line. I think this part would have been a lot more mentally tougher if I hadn't already ran a lap at that pace to know exactly where to push the pace on a bit, or to hold back at the start of certain hills.

I started training specifically for a marathon at the start of June, and consistently stuck to 70mpw since then with no strict structure other than making sure to get in a few 20+ mile long runs, and stuck in a few 15 mile mid week, until following the last 4 weeks of the P&D 55/70 plan just to make sure I'd taper properly. I've already registered for Dublin, so I'm feeling a lot more confident now that I have a realistic chance at breaking 3 hours there, once I get through the next 9 weeks injury-free. There were a few things I did that make me more optimistic about 3 hours;

• I took up to a minute of a break at some of the water stops to make sure I was getting enough water in.
• At around 10 miles I felt like I could have upped the pace enough to get to halfway in 1:30, but made the decision to hold back and leave the HM runners away.
• I crossed the finish line feeling tired, but without any real muscle soreness or cramping.
• My first testing of using gels at a marathon worked very well. Took a high5 gel at around 3 mile intervals and never hit a "wall", as such.

Krusty_Clown

Subzero3 wrote: »

Looking forward to the marathon paced runs, dare I try for a 2:55 marathon?

On another thread you mentioned:

Subzero3 wrote: »

did 16 mile at planed marathon pace 6:45 for my long run. Pure flat run but did feel tired as ran without water.

So, unless you are planning on changing your goal pace, I'm not sure what you are hoping to achieve by doing marathon paced runs that will not be as challenging as the run mentioned above. 6:45/mile pace equates to 2:57.

Subzero3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

On another thread you mentioned:



So, unless you are planning on changing your goal pace, I'm not sure what you are hoping to achieve by doing marathon paced runs that will not be as challenging as the run mentioned above. 6:45/mile pace equates to 2:57.

It was challenging, well another 10 mile at that pace would of been tough. Yes changing goal pace for a faster time. Do midweek runs at marathon pace maybe?

ThebitterLemon

CR 7 wrote: »

I had my first road marathon over the weekend and first "sub 3" attempt, in Achill. Although in reality, going under 3 hours was wildly overoptimistic, considering it has only been done once in the 4 years since the race began, and it happened to be this year (by a guy that looks to be a 2:45ish marathoner on regular courses after a quick Google). I managed 3:08:45, after about 1:34 for the first half.

The course consists of 2 laps of a 13.1 mile course, so I was happy to keep an even effort for both. The race itself is fantastic, for such a small race in terms of number of entrants, the organisation is as good as any of the big commercial races I've been at. Well stocked water stops at every 2/3 miles on a course that's a bit isolated in parts. And there won't be many races with as good of a view. One other important detail was that the small numbers and relaxed atmosphere allowed me to just roll out of bed half an hour before the start time and stroll the 400m or so to the line with enough time to still get a proper warm-up in. It also meant I could leave a bag right at the finish line so I only needed to carry a half marathon worth of gels.

There was a half and an ultra on the same course starting at the same time so I had a few half runners for company for the first lap to help keep pace. I could see 2 guys take off at the start and established a good lead very quickly so I just assumed they were both doing the half and left them go. As far as I know, one of these won the half, while the other was the guy that kept going and did the second lap at that pace. Once I started the 2nd lap though, I couldn't even see another runner until I started catching a few finishers of the half just before the finish line. I think this part would have been a lot more mentally tougher if I hadn't already ran a lap at that pace to know exactly where to push the pace on a bit, or to hold back at the start of certain hills.

I started training specifically for a marathon at the start of June, and consistently stuck to 70mpw since then with no strict structure other than making sure to get in a few 20+ mile long runs, and stuck in a few 15 mile mid week, until following the last 4 weeks of the P&D 55/70 plan just to make sure I'd taper properly. I've already registered for Dublin, so I'm feeling a lot more confident now that I have a realistic chance at breaking 3 hours there, once I get through the next 9 weeks injury-free. There were a few things I did that make me more optimistic about 3 hours;

• I took up to a minute of a break at some of the water stops to make sure I was getting enough water in.
• At around 10 miles I felt like I could have upped the pace enough to get to halfway in 1:30, but made the decision to hold back and leave the HM runners away.
• I crossed the finish line feeling tired, but without any real muscle soreness or cramping.
• My first testing of using gels at a marathon worked very well. Took a high5 gel at around 3 mile intervals and never hit a "wall", as such.

Great time on a fairly tough course and sounds like you'd more in the tank. Portents look good!

TbL

Krusty_Clown

Subzero3 wrote: »

It was challenging, well another 10 mile at that pace would of been tough. Yes changing goal pace for a faster time. Do midweek runs at marathon pace maybe?

You're just not going to get a great amount of bang for your buck, by doing shorter sessions at marathon pace, if you can already manage 16 miles at marathon pace. With 9-10 weeks of training left, would you not switch down to 6:30/mile (2:50 marathon pace) and start building the marathon pace blocks form there? Like maybe start with 10 miles with 6 @6:30 and see how it feels and gradually move to longer MP runs?

Subzero3

Thanks lads will take it all on board as I plan the week ahead.

overpronator

Subzero3 wrote: »

Thanks lads will take it all on board as I plan the week ahead.

I would suggest planning 8 or 10 weeks ahead now. Get the sessions down on paper and build progression week to week.
To me you sound like a low 2.50 runner who is 10 weeks out from your marathon. Train appropriately with the medium term in mind and its there for you. You can get ALOT fitter over these weeks.

jonnner

I'm following the P&D 55-70mi plan. Yesterday should have been 26k with 19k @PMP but it clashed with a stag weekend away. However on Saturday I made the effort to run 9k easy out to a Parkrun, ran the 5k hard and then 9k easy back to the Hotel.
Now normally i'm a stickler for sticking exactly to plan, so I was going to fit in the 19k@PMP in the next few days. But now I'm thinking I might be better to leave it and enjoy the benefits of this week being a recovery week (as in the P&D plan). The reason I say this is I ran 2 Half Marathons before the 18 week plan started. The first was 2 months before and the second 2 weeks before. Both were ran slightly faster than PMP. So I know I can complete the 19k@PMP.
Anyone any thoughts on this? I feel I might require an easier week as I've picked up a few niggles.

davedanon

I did 19m w 8@MP last weekend, although it was meant to be 20. Was totally jiggered after the MP miles. This week was supposed to be 22 easy, but I'm working at electric picnic next weekend, so didn't fancy an MP session on the Sunday morning, and did it on Saturday instead. Managed only 19 w 9@MP, (instead of 20 w 10MP) and that featured a break after 5 miles when I just completely ran out of gas on a long drag. Got going again, but it wasn't the perfect session by any means. It was a fractured week, too, as my 26 day streak ended spectacularly with 3 missed days during the week. It was unavoidable life events and there was plenty of drink involved, so I'm not sweating it, take it as a step back week, and move on. I'm concentrating on getting the miles/sessions in this week, with only 4 weeks to Berlin, and more training disruption potential next weekend.

Amadeus 2014

Thinking back over Subzero3 and Beeps posts a bit...

There are two types of runner aiming to crack 3 for the first time. Those who have a few marathons under their belt already and are in the sub 3:15 band or those who are fast and competitive at shorter distances and are planning on making their debut at the longer distance.

And the advice in this thread is typically much more advanced than you would find elsewhere. The assumption is that you know the basics and are here for the added edge. And the advice typically has one of two nuggets at its heart:

1 - Speed Endurance. Any able bodied person under 65 could cover 26 miles on foot given the right motivation. A slightly smaller subset could run the entire distance, given the training. Almost everyone on the planet could - given a few weeks - run a kilometre. A much smaller subset could train to run that kilometre in 4:15 or less.

In other words neither sub 3 speed or marathon endurance are rare or special. Combining the two is the magic and that is where specific speed endurance training in the form of PMP miles and the sessions posted earlier by KC are solid gold. Not including training geared for that specific purpose immediately makes the goal harder than it should be.

2 - Mental elements. The Blue Ribbon event in a time that generates almost universal respect. Every runner has gremlins and its the rare sub 3 aspirant who doesn't have a touch of Imposter Syndrome. At some point over those 26 miles your Central Governor is going to say "No" and having the mental toughness to overrule it is key and often overlooked

The kicker is that 1 and 2 impact the two different types of runner differently. For someone like Beeps running 4:15/km when fighting fit and fully rested will feel like walking. Resisting that temptation to stretch the legs a little is a very different type of mental challenge. Likewise the fast debutantes don't have the comfort blanket at 22 miles of knowing they can cover the distance having done it before. This is a very different challenge to feeling fatigue and seeing 4:15 as a fast pace in the way that a runner who has built to a sub 3 attempt will.

Likewise we default to what we know. An experienced marathon runner will default to LSR. A speedy first timer will continue to push hardest in speed sessions. The challenge of Speed Endurance training is mixing the two, a leap outside the comfort zone and that isn't easy.

Thanks for all of the advice on my own situation by the way, contradictory but thats good - shows there is no right answer!

Subzero3

Alright lads, Scribbled down a plan for 6 weeks to start off. Some key points I need to relay. 2:50 Marathon
1. XC is starting at the end of the month and I would like to run/race these. 3 consecutive weeks.

2. I will need split some runs into 2 due to time constraints at home. I have 2 x 45 minute windows to run before and during work on most days if I wish. The plan is to do the 2x 45minute splits @ pmp or recovery runs.

3. easy pace, long run pace = 7:15-730,
PMP = 6:30 ,
Speed = xc race or intervels
Recovery 7:30 or Hr in aerobic zone

Week 1 Total
Monday Recovery splits 4+4 @ 7:30 8
Tuesday Speed 6.5 1 mile wup/down 6.5
Wed Midweek long @ 7:15-7:30 10
Thursday Splits @ PMP 5+5 10
Friday 5 General Aerobic 7:20 ish 5
Sunday Long run W last mile @ PMP 18-20
Weekly total 57-60 Miles

Week 2 Total
Monday recovery splits 4+4 8
Tuesday speed 6
Wed Midweek long 10
Thurs 5+5 splits @ PMP 10
Friday 6 easy 6
Sunday Long run w last 2 mile @ PMP 16-20
Weekly Total 56-60 Miles

Week 3 Total
Monday recovery splits 4+4 8
Tuesday speed 6
Wed Midweek long 10
Thurs 6 easy 6
Friday Splits @ pmp 6+5 11
Sunday Long run w last 3 mile @ PMP 16-19
Weekly Total 56-60 Miles

Week 4 Total
Monday recovery splits 4+4 8
Tuesday speed or PMP? 6
Wed Midweek long 10
Thurs 6.2 @ pmp 6.2
Friday 6 easy 6
Sunday XC Race 6
Weekly Total 42 Miles

Week 5 Total
Monday recovery splits 4+4 8
Tuesday Long Run last 4 @ PMP 18-20
Wed easy 5
Thurs 6+5 splits @ PMP 11
Friday 6 easy 6
Sunday XC Race/Speed 7
Weekly Total 50

Week 6 Total
Monday recovery splits 4+4 8
Tuesday Long Run last 5 @ pmp 18-20
Wed easy 5-7
Thurs 5+5 splits @ PMP 10
Friday 6 easy 6
Sunday XC/Race/Speed 8
Weekly Total 50

Thoughs? Is the long run with @ PMP a bad/good idea or will I see how I get on after the first one?
When the xc is over I will move the @ pmp splits to 6+6,7+6 etc.

ger664

CR 7 wrote: »

I had my first road marathon over the weekend and first "sub 3" attempt, in Achill. Although in reality, going under 3 hours was wildly overoptimistic, considering it has only been done once in the 4 years since the race began, and it happened to be this year (by a guy that looks to be a 2:45ish marathoner on regular courses after a quick Google). I managed 3:08:45, after about 1:34 for the first half.

3:08 on that course is pretty much sub 3 running.

Krusty_Clown

Subzero3 wrote: »

Thoughs? Is the long run with @ PMP a bad/good idea or will I see how I get on after the first one?
When the xc is over I will move the @ pmp splits to 6+6,7+6 etc.

It's the kind of level of detail that you should probably get your club coach to take a look over, as they know you best, but personally I just don't see the value in splitting a marathon pace sessions. Better to do it in one go, instead of your mid-week long run and split an easy day into two instead. Sometimes 5+5 doesn't equal 10 (when you have a long recovery in between). But perhaps it equates to some other form of stimulus. Who knows?

CR 7

ger664 wrote: »

3:08 on that course is pretty much sub 3 running.

That's sort of how I was thinking, but at the same time it isn't sub 3 until I actually go out and do it. Few solid weeks of training now and I'll be disappointed not to break it in Dublin.

Itziger

So, 6 weeks out and still trying to clamber back on board this sub 3 bus. One of the first real Long Runs and one of the first with MP stuff. Had also upped the mileage a little this week (Total 102.2km) Plan is very simple, try some T kms in midweek and some MP in weekend run. I also dd 18k yesterday at 4.45 to make sure I wasn't too fresh for today.

Anyway, first section of 12.7k real easy @ 5min/km. Then the MP bit. Had been thinking 15E+10M+7E but changed it and started the M and ended up doing 12k. Felt tough but good, came in at 50:36. The 'easy' stuff to finish up was a bit of a crawl.

Am I getting back to where I should be? Probably. Is it too late? We'll see!!

Hope to up the faster midweek till I get to about 11k @ 3.55 and increase the weekend M distance to 20 or so. I might try one or two 'fancier' workouts too, not just Long Run with some M.

How's everyone coming along?

ploughon

Hi itzger,
Sounds like you are well on track.

I'm 6 weeks out too...telling myself it's only 3 more weeks of hard training, then taper time!

I did a 10k time trial on Friday, on a gravel track, with a blocked drain i had to go wide each lap to avoid. The 25 laps ended up being 6.44 miles, took me 40.06, which puts me in the ball park anyway, and is 62 seconds quicker than I did that same run last cycle.

Trying hard to stay ahead of the niggles.

Time to believe

AuldManKing

Its 12 weeks to San Seb - 11 weeks + Race Week in my books.

I've done 2 70m weeks back to back - which is my peak mileage so far in my running career.
Following a slightly pimped version of P&D and I'm liking how its making me stronger.

I done the F.Duffy at MP but haven't done a whole lot of MP miles just yet - a good bit of HMP work though.
The next 6 weeks, I've entered Athlone half / Race series half and the 3/4 Mara - I need to figure out how to run these in a way that wont have me over cooked. I entered them when Dublin was the 'main thing' but knee issues changed that.

I'm thinking of racing Athlone half as it'll give me good feedback with 10 weeks left as to my level of fitness - I'll leave my ego at the door - if I don't break 1.25 - its not the end of the world - plenty of time.

In the coming weeks I'll be trying to incorporate some MP work into the P&D plan - mainly on the MLR's - I'll also do the odd bit of speedwork to keep the turnover going.

This thread is very valuable - good to share some ideas.

FBOT01

AuldManKing wrote: »

Its 12 weeks to San Seb - 11 weeks + Race Week in my books.

I've done 2 70m weeks back to back - which is my peak mileage so far in my running career.
Following a slightly pimped version of P&D and I'm liking how its making me stronger.

I done the F.Duffy at MP but haven't done a whole lot of MP miles just yet - a good bit of HMP work though.
The next 6 weeks, I've entered Athlone half / Race series half and the 3/4 Mara - I need to figure out how to run these in a way that wont have me over cooked. I entered them when Dublin was the 'main thing' but knee issues changed that.

I'm thinking of racing Athlone half as it'll give me good feedback with 10 weeks left as to my level of fitness - I'll leave my ego at the door - if I don't break 1.25 - its not the end of the world - plenty of time.

In the coming weeks I'll be trying to incorporate some MP work into the P&D plan - mainly on the MLR's - I'll also do the odd bit of speedwork to keep the turnover going.

This thread is very valuable - good to share some ideas.

A, remind me again which P&D plan you are pimping 18wk 55-70?

Duanington

AuldManKing wrote: »

Its 12 weeks to San Seb - 11 weeks + Race Week in my books.

I've done 2 70m weeks back to back - which is my peak mileage so far in my running career.
Following a slightly pimped version of P&D and I'm liking how its making me stronger.

I done the F.Duffy at MP but haven't done a whole lot of MP miles just yet - a good bit of HMP work though.
The next 6 weeks, I've entered Athlone half / Race series half and the 3/4 Mara - I need to figure out how to run these in a way that wont have me over cooked. I entered them when Dublin was the 'main thing' but knee issues changed that.

I'm thinking of racing Athlone half as it'll give me good feedback with 10 weeks left as to my level of fitness - I'll leave my ego at the door - if I don't break 1.25 - its not the end of the world - plenty of time.

In the coming weeks I'll be trying to incorporate some MP work into the P&D plan - mainly on the MLR's - I'll also do the odd bit of speedwork to keep the turnover going.

This thread is very valuable - good to share some ideas.

What stages of the plan do the races fall on A?

Subzero3

Pimping the 55m plan myself, we'll atleast getting in the key runs. Got rid of double tempos and starting doing more PMP stuff. Adding PMP on to long runs to. But will keep long runs to 18-20 depending how I feel after the upcoming races. I feel good on the long runs now which is something I didn't before overdoing to fast.

AuldManKing

FBOT01 wrote: »

A, remind me again which P&D plan you are pimping 18wk 55-70?

Its the 70-85 plan structure - while I wont be hitting 85m, I also want to do higher than the 55-70m plan.

The 'pimping' is just throwing in some HMP/MP miles during the MLR's - possibly the odd bit of speedwork (knee dependent)

Duanington wrote: »

What stages of the plan do the races fall on A?

Athlone Half - Sept 10th (end of week 11 on plan)

DCM Half - Sept 24th (end of week 9 on plan) (P&D calls for 18 with 12@MP)

3/4 Mara - Oct 9th (end week 7 on plan) (P&D calls for 24m)

conavitzky

Into my third week of marathon training. Last two weeks approx 115k with 8k tempo ( 3:45/k pace), 20k mlr and 28 k long run filled out with slow running and strides. Coach designed but very much p&d influenced by the look of it. Our coach would have us run our long run on the faster side - MP plus 5%. Have tried to be more disciplined and keep to MP plus 10% and hopefully this will have me a bit fresher for the sessions.
Did the rnr half in 1:21 ish. Will do a max of two races between now and Dublin. Local 10 mile as part of MP session and a 10k the following Sunday switching my long run to Monday to mimic p&d. Will see how it goes. In the midst of the high mileage it can be hard to see the positives as the body is tired but hoping that come the last two weeks the taper will introduce some freshness.
For the last four weeks will pull back on the tempos and introduce more MP work with some faster stuff also to get some pop back in the legs. PB of 2:54 from first marathon in dublin last year. Hoping to have a cut at sub 2:50.

Itziger

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

That's my point, San Seb doesn't give you another option at another crack at sub 3 for months!

TbL

There is Pisa in December TBL. Booked flights today. Nice course to be fair. But if I do get there in one piece I'll be sure to get into the pen and push up near the start. Forgot to take Italian love of chaos into account last year and first 2kms I lost about a minute!

Itziger

Had a little battle with the head today and I won!

Was feeling sluggish and the weather was warm AGAIN/still. Was thinking of taking a rest day or an 'easy' day rather than the T session I should have been targeting. In the end I did the following, semi-inspired by the Klown himself.

6k E followed by 500mts @ slightly under HM pace+1.5k @ M pace x 4 with no rest in between. I had liked the idea when Krusty posted something similar a while back as he said the M pace sections become the 'rec' part of the session so your body is kinda looking forward to it. "Oh good, I can slow down to that nice easy MP now". The km with 500 of HM and 500 of M pace worked out at 4.00 flat and the 'other' full km of M pace was 4.10 or thereabouts.

Well it works I think. I hadn't set it up as a session on the watch so had to keep an eye on pace and distance but at least they're round numbers. I must check what total distance you'd want to be doing, cos I don't think 8k is enough in all probability.

ThebitterLemon

Itziger wrote: »

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

That's my point, San Seb doesn't give you another option at another crack at sub 3 for months!

TbL

There is Pisa in December TBL. Booked flights today. Nice course to be fair. But if I do get there in one piece I'll be sure to get into the pen and push up near the start. Forgot to take Italian love of chaos into account last year and first 2kms I lost about a minute!

Did you need a doctors cert to enter Itziger?

TbL

PaulieYifter

I did lots of those alternating sessions en route to 2:56 in San Seb last year - they are great. But yeah, most of them persisted for 12 to 16k eg 7 x (400 + 1200) and 9 x (800 + 800), etc.

You have it in you Itziger - just has to happen on the day for ya.

Itziger

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Did you need a doctors cert to enter Itziger?

TbL

I printed off the one on their site and filled it in myself. Will be doing something similar this year.

Itziger

PaulieYifter wrote: »

I did lots of those alternating sessions en route to 2:56 in San Seb last year - they are great. But yeah, most of them persisted for 12 to 16k eg 7 x (400 + 1200) and 9 x (800 + 800), etc.

You have it in you Itziger - just has to happen on the day for ya.

Thanks. Will try to up the distance in the coming weeks then. 800+800 sounds tough!

ger664

Yeah those alternating sessions are hard but the job. I do 400/800 10K/MP session with no rest. Normally get 8-10 done. I pull the plug when the body/head cant pick up to the 10K pace

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

Thanks. Will try to up the distance in the coming weeks then. 800+800 sounds tough!

It's worth bearing in mind that by the time you attempt a session like this (alternating LT/MP), you'll already have done a good chunk of LT stuff during the base period. Here's an example of the progression (typically one per week):
20 mins LT
6 miles alternating (400m faster than LT/1200m steady)
25 mins split LT
6? miles alternating (800m faster than LT/800m steady)
30 mins split LT
8 miles alternating (800m LT/800m MP)
35 mins split LT
5 Miles Easy + 9 miles alternating (800m just slower than LT/800@MP) <- This one was fun (only managed 7 miles!).
4 Miles Easy + 6 miles alternating (1mile@MP/800 steady) + 4 miles Easy
5 Miles Easy + 5 x alternating (1.5mile@MP/800 steady)
5 x (2 Miles @MP/800 steady)
7 Miles alternating (400 @LT/1200@ MP)
4 x (3 miles @MP / 800 steady)
MP stuff
Race

Needless to say, there's lots of other quality stuff in there, and the above is spread over a 21 week period (buy the book for more details!). What's interesting is the gradual swap-over, where you start with LT-biased quality work and the rest is easy. Gradually, the LT stuff eases up and the steady stuff picks up to marathon pace. I ran that 4th last line above recently, and it's a bit of an eye-opener when you realize that you are actively recovering (and looking forward to) the MP-based segments. It's been a really good approach for me, and one that I think should be more prevalent in marathon plans, rather than the more standard 18 miles with/12 @MP type approach.

Some of this stuff is pretty tough though and doesn't necessarily scale to those attempting to run sub-3. Not trying to belittle that goal in any way, just pointing out that the accompanying mileage in this program is aimed at runners who are comfortable north of 100mpw, and many of these sessions will take place on pretty tired legs (e.g. the day after running 18 miles split across a double run). But certainly stuff that can be borrowed/applied.