The Sub 3 Support Thread

tomwaits48 · 09-09-2016 4:09pm

neither am I. just like hanging out with the big kids.

Sandwell · 09-09-2016 4:23pm

I've the first of the P&D tune-up races coming up. The plan recommends a race of 8-15 km distance with 2-3 miles before and after. The races are deliberately scheduled for the day before a long run (17 miles in this case). I want to run my first tune-up race tomorrow and was planning on running the Fionnuala McCormack 10k. Unfortunately my lift has fallen through and I'm now looking at the option of doing a Parkrun. That's obviously a much shorter race than the plan recommends but if I throw in a couple of extra easy miles before and after I assume it should serve the purpose of tiring me sufficiently as well as providing me with a bit of race practice?

dublin runner · 09-09-2016 4:35pm

Clearlier wrote:

If you took LT as whatever pace you can run for an hour at though the faster you are the 'easier' it is as if for example you run 5 min miles you'll be doing 35 mins of your 60 mins pace whereas if you're running 9 min miles (obviously not on this thread!) you won't complete the session as 7 miles takes 63 mins. I think that Krusty's point about the changing paces in JD's plans is very relevant.

The hour rules doesn't really hold any water though. As I have mentioned, the more developed the athlete the more paces converge. It's a handy ball park figure but not a good indicator for most.

Krusty_Clown · 09-09-2016 4:49pm

davedanon wrote: »

and this causes the crucial slight improvement in running economy which makes the difference between a slight struggle to 10/12 @MP, and a full marathon with at least 18/20 in relative comfort. If I'm struggling at all before 20 miles, it doesn't bode well for me.

You're forgetting a number of other influences that will make the pace feel easier on the day:
1) You'll be running with lots of other runners
2) Shielding from unfavourable wind
3) Cheering crowds + adoring fans
4) The idea of a beer waiting for you at the finish line
5) Well rested/recovered
6) Topped up Glycogen levels
7) Water/drinks on course at regular intervals
8) Adrenaline (it's a race after all!)
9) You're wearing your special socks
10) I mentioned the beer at the finish line already, right?

El Caballo · 09-09-2016 6:56pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

With Jack Daniels plans, as the Tempo-type sessions get longer, you're supposed to slow them down. So by the time you're doing 60 mins, it's actually around (sometimes slower than) marathon pace. e.g.:
20 mins: 6:20
30 mins: 6:28
40 mins: 6:33
60 mins: 6:41
M Pace = 6:42
Still some crazy sessions in there. As dublin_runner pointed out, the faster you get the narrow the differences are (in time) across 10 mile pace, LT, 1/2 marathon. On a number of occasions I've subbed something like 45 mins @LT for a 10 mile race, figuring that the longer distance will offset the convenience of being in a race environment.

The problem with generic mileage based plans is that they are inflexible to different ability levels and will only suit a very small proportion of the runners using them when it comes to time by intensity to get the right stimulus without causing unnecessary fatigue which hampers recovery from the session. As Clearview mentioned below, Something like 7/8 miles @LT Might be a perfect session for someone pushing on the fringes of the elite level of performance but is a completely different monster when it comes to someone running 3 hours and an even bigger monster for someone running 3:30 because our body doesn't really understand mileage and pace, it understands time and intensity which is why most of these plans are flawed when it comes to some of these sessions.

I'd be on the opposite side of the thinking to you KC when it comes to tackling these sessions, I'd prefer to aim for the stimulus that the plan is calling for and convert it to suit me when it comes to the length of the session instead of slowing it down. For instance, if I had a session of 7 miles @LT on the cards as P&D defines it, I'd change the time to 40 minutes max at LT and work out the other sessions at LT off that, 6 miles @LT=33/34 minutes etc etc.The reason I would do that is to keep the specifity of the workout but on my own terms to match my ability without upsetting the harmony of the plan for me.

I'd have the same thoughts with MP long runs as well. Something like 15 miles @MPE would be a good session for somebody like you knocking on the door of a sub-2:30, hopefully a 2:2× man soon enough:), I think it's overkill for a lot of slower runners, myself included as I think 80-90 mins max at MP is about enough for anyone and I would generally stick with 45-60 minutes at 2 hour pace per Daniels for AeT. I see where you are coming from but I would rather target the stimulus on the plan and change the duration rather than moving away from the stimulus and keeping the duration.

Krusty_Clown · 09-09-2016 10:58pm

El Caballo wrote: »

I'd be on the opposite side of the thinking to you KC when it comes to tackling these sessions, I'd prefer to aim for the stimulus that the plan is calling for and convert it to suit me when it comes to the length of the session instead of slowing it down. For instance, if I had a session of 7 miles @LT on the cards as P&D defines it, I'd change the time to 40 minutes max at LT and work out the other sessions at LT off that, 6 miles @LT=33/34 minutes etc etc.The reason I would do that is to keep the specifity of the workout but on my own terms to match my ability without upsetting the harmony of the plan for me.

Actually, I didn't offer an opinion. That is how Jack Daniels suggests you perform the tempo and those numbers were copied from the table in his book. You should probably consider that the plans he puts together are structured to take this into account, so may seem unnecessarily difficult, unless you are interpreting the session according to his rules. I do think that Daniels plans are unnecessarily difficult and have only had success with Plan A (first revision). On the scaling issue, the plan I followed swung the other way. It was time based - and because of that, I found myself doing sessions of up to 24 miles, because they didn't scale to faster runners. But plans are just that... Plans. Templates.

El Caballo wrote: »

I'd have the same thoughts with MP long runs as well. Something like 15 miles @MPE would be a good session for somebody like you knocking on the door of a sub-2:30, hopefully a 2:2× man soon enough:), I think it's overkill for a lot of slower runners, myself included as I think 80-90 mins max at MP is about enough for anyone and I would generally stick with 45-60 minutes at 2 hour pace per Daniels for AeT. I see where you are coming from but I would rather target the stimulus on the plan and change the duration rather than moving away from the stimulus and keeping the duration.

Not disagreeing with you. I said that these sessions are brutal but there is room for them in marathon plans. Where is that room? Well, you've got that previous poster who has already run 16 miles at marathon pace. You've got runners who have strong positive indicators over shorter 10 miles / 12 miles MP sessions). So not for everyone, but certainly for some. When I first ran sub-3, I was following a P&D plan, and maxed out at 16 w/12@PMP. I didn't do a 15 mile MP session until I had a bit of a breakthrough and ran 2:38. So yes, quite a few marathon cycles after breaking 3 hours.

Here's a thing though.. You can't get away from it. A marathon is 26 miles at marathon pace. 15 miles is 57.25%* of that distance, whether you're a 2:02 runner, or a 4 hour runner. The goal of marathon training should be to train yourself for the distance as best you can, without injuring yourself, or over-cooking it. The hard part is finding that fine line between the two. So not advocating 15 miles @PMP for a runner targeting sub-3 (if you read back, I haven't taken that position), but there are certainly benefits if you are at that stage of your development curve, or have coped comfortably with preceding MP sessions).

* Unless you happen to be in Manchester.

BeepBeep67 · 09-09-2016 11:27pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

* Unless you happen to be in Manchester.

* Unless you happened to have been in Manchester between 2013 and 2015. :pac:

AuldManKing · 09-09-2016 11:49pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

* Unless you happened to have been in Manchester between 2013 and 2015. :pac:

You went and mentioned it, didnt you!!

Bahanaman · 10-09-2016 7:20am

BeepBeep67 wrote:

* Unless you happened to have been in Manchester between 2013 and 2015.

Or Waterford!

El Caballo · 11-09-2016 7:05pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Actually, I didn't offer an opinion. That is how Jack Daniels suggests you perform the tempo and those numbers were copied from the table in his book. You should probably consider that the plans he puts together are structured to take this into account, so may seem unnecessarily difficult, unless you are interpreting the session according to his rules. I do think that Daniels plans are unnecessarily difficult and have only had success with Plan A (first revision). On the scaling issue, the plan I followed swung the other way. It was time based - and because of that, I found myself doing sessions of up to 24 miles, because they didn't scale to faster runners. But plans are just that... Plans. Templates.

Completely agree with plans being templates. The reason I posted the post in reply to you that I did is because I thought your original post would lead to misinterpretation as it was in reply to a post about the length of tempos.

What I was and am trying to say is that I do understand those times for tempo runs as listed by Daniel's and that tempos will get slower as the duration increases, but they are all different types of tempo runs and not just a slowed down or sped up LT run, each run has a specific purpose.

45-60 minute tempo= aerobic tempo run, main aim is to improve aerobic threshold and target that zone as is the main aim of a marathon paced run.

25-40 minute tempo= LT tempo run, main aim is to target and improve your lactate threshold

etc.

Daniels is not saying if you have 7 miles @LT, slow down the pace because it might take 50 minutes to run that workout. He is saying that an LT run should take 40 minutes if an LT run is on the plan and that is the pace you should run for 40 minutes. If you have a 60 minute tempo, it's an aerobic threshold run which is completely different to an LT tempo, they are not interchangeable as they both have different goals and stimulus and thus a different place in training. One targets LT while the other targets aerobic threshold.

This is what I was trying to clear up from your original post in case someone misinterpreted it. An LT tempo is an LT tempo and if someone wants to follow a plan as it is wrote down. They do not want to do 60 minutes at Aerobic threshold when an LT run is on the cards.

That is why I was saying that if a plan calls for 7 miles @LT and it would take a runner 48 minutes, they should cap it 40 minutes at LT pace and not change it to 48 minutes at a slower pace because that changes the stimulus of the workout from LT to AeT.

ploughon · 11-09-2016 7:24pm

Hi Folks,

Did a 20 miler this morn, with 14 at MP, on a hilly route with strong winds thrown in for good measure!

I was thinking of this thread on the run...and reminded myself of how much marathon racing and training are Psychological...

IMO...these sessions are what you tell yourself they are...if you tell yourself that they are amazingly difficult etc...thats what they will be for you...

if you choose to tell yourself they are probably the closest to race prep training you can get, a chance to try out race day gear, nutrition, hydration and mental strategies. These sessions will give you feedback on where you are, what you might be capable of doing on race day, and what you need to focus on before race day, in a way that other workouts wont.

These sessions, whichever version of them you do are are challenging for sure, but I think the way to go about them is to focus on the bang you re getting for your buck

Plodman · 14-09-2016 2:59pm

Whats are peoples thoughts on nutrition during race? I have used non caffeinated High Five gels in the past but don't notice any boost from them. Having said that I continue to use them as I would worry how I'd feel without them. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what has worked well for them in the past?

davedanon · 14-09-2016 3:04pm

Plodman wrote: »

Whats are peoples thoughts on nutrition during race? I have used non caffeinated High Five gels in the past but don't notice any boost from them. Having said that I continue to use them as I would worry how I'd feel without them. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what has worked well for them in the past?

There are Xtreme High 5 isogels out now. 100mg of caffeine in each! Tried one at the weekend, and the taste is....unusual. I don't know whether it's the caffeine or that the flavour isn't the usual orangey one. (These are the blue/yellow ones)

ploughon · 14-09-2016 7:44pm

Plodman wrote: »

Whats are peoples thoughts on nutrition during race? I have used non caffeinated High Five gels in the past but don't notice any boost from them. Having said that I continue to use them as I would worry how I'd feel without them. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what has worked well for them in the past?

Hi Plodman,

I use the High 5 Gels, starting with non caffeine ones, and the last one or two with caffeine.

I'm open to correction but I think the High 5 gels are lighter than the Isogels, so thats why I carry them on race day.

ploughon · 14-09-2016 7:49pm

Plodman wrote: »

Whats are peoples thoughts on nutrition during race? I have used non caffeinated High Five gels in the past but don't notice any boost from them. Having said that I continue to use them as I would worry how I'd feel without them. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what has worked well for them in the past?

Further to Plodmans question...does anyone take salt tablets/electrolytes on race day?
I remember last year seizing up towards the end of the marathon and feeling aerobically fine, but my leg muscles all felt like they were about to cramp up.
Could that be low electrolyte levels?

dublin runner · 14-09-2016 9:07pm

ploughon wrote: »

Further to Plodmans question...does anyone take salt tablets/electrolytes on race day?
I remember last year seizing up towards the end of the marathon and feeling aerobically fine, but my leg muscles all felt like they were about to cramp up.
Could that be low electrolyte levels?

It may be alright. Could be fatigue, dehydration and as you can, low electrolyte levels.

What works for me? Dioralyte sachets, sports drinks and water, the day of the race and the days before. Also, water is not always the best hydration solution. A mixture of electrolyte heavy drinks the day or two before, alongside water is key for me. It's all about balance. I don't overly sweat but I do lose a lot of salt during the marathon. I haven't had a problem with cramps since but I am very diligent in this regard.

Balance, balance, balance.......practice on your remaining long runs and have a plan leading up to the marathon. Find out what works for you.

Subzero3 · 15-09-2016 7:32am

ploughon wrote: »

Hi Plodman,

I use the High 5 Gels, starting with non caffeine ones, and the last one or two with caffeine.

I'm open to correction but I think the High 5 gels are lighter than the Isogels, so thats why I carry them on race day.

You can get High5 Isogels also. In theory the high5 energy gel are more heavy/jelly like then Isogel, as you would need a gulp of water to wash down.

The Isogel from which ever company has more water to make it easier to consume on the go.
Its best to try them both I guess.

davedanon · 15-09-2016 8:47am

Subzero3 wrote: »

You can get High5 Isogels also. In theory the high5 energy gel are more heavy/jelly like then Isogel, as you would need a gulp of water to wash down.

The Isogel from which ever company has more water to make it easier to consume on the go.
Its best to try them both I guess.

Try them both, but the energy gel (the gloopy one) is gack, imo. Can't abide them.

MacSwifty · 15-09-2016 10:31am

I use Clif Bloks across between a pack of jelly and wine gums. Never got any benefit from the gels

davedanon · 15-09-2016 10:33am

MacSwifty wrote: »

I use Clif Bloks across between a pack of jelly and wine gums. Never got any benefit from the gels

Ugh. sounds like far too much eating. We're not cyclists!

Clearlier · 15-09-2016 12:15pm

davedanon wrote: »

Ugh. sounds like far too much eating. We're not cyclists!

Use whatever works for you. I know a 2:28 guy who eats mini-flapjacks.

Plodman · 15-09-2016 12:44pm

MacSwifty wrote: »

I use Clif Bloks across between a pack of jelly and wine gums. Never got any benefit from the gels

Thanks MacSwifty; might give them a go.
I have tried High 5 gels & isogels etc but never feel any benefit from them. That's not to say they don't work but I cant "feel" any boost.

MacSwifty · 15-09-2016 12:59pm

Plodman wrote: »

MacSwifty wrote: »

I use Clif Bloks across between a pack of jelly and wine gums. Never got any benefit from the gels

Thanks MacSwifty; might give them a go.
I have tried High 5 gels & isogels etc but never feel any benefit from them. That's not to say they don't work but I cant "feel" any boost.

I train without them and try to go with water on LSR - so on the day they do give me a boost about a mile after eating. I would use about three packs in a marathon one before the start and two thru out the race. They are available with caffeine which I use. Best of luck with them.

Subzero3 · 15-09-2016 4:36pm

davedanon wrote: »

Try them both, but the energy gel (the gloopy one) is gack, imo. Can't abide them.

I agree. I used the science in sport isogels and though they were great. The only thing high5 have going for them is the price.

Itziger · 15-09-2016 6:05pm

I have a sneaky suspicion that none of that stuff works! I have taken and probably will again in the upcoming marathon(s) but the jury is very much out.

As for training, tried a mixed pace session today but it was a bit of a disaster. Did it on a track and it just isn't the same, after the first two 333mt laps @ just under HM pace I was planning on doing 4 more @ just under M pace. Thing is, on a track it's very difficult to slow down after a couple of laps. It's weird but it wasn't happening so I changed the plan radically and decided to do 5k @ HM pace followed by 5k at M pace. The idea being that at least I'd be doing a few M miles on tired legs. Again, did the second 5k too fast so I don't know what purpose it served in the end. First 5k was about 19.05 or so and the second was just under 20 minutes. 200 metres of jogging in between. I suppose it was at least a bit of sub marathon paced stuff but it was neither fish nor fowl really. Will try maybe 20k @ marathon pace on Sunday, 4 weeks out. Next week could be messy as I'm going home for a wedding at the weekend and have root canal work to be done on a tooth on Tuesday.

If I can get in a run early Saturday morning, what's a decent route from Baggot st/Ballsbridge area? Ill probably only have an hour or so.

AuldManKing · 16-09-2016 8:55am

After a decent 1:24 in Athlone and 3 easy days Sun/Mon/Tues I added 3x15mins @ MP (or slightly faster) to my MLR on Wednesday.

On the last rep I felt a tightness in my lower calf and called a halt to the session, easy jogged back to the car.

I couldn't run Thursday and probably wont over the weekend.
Doing plenty of stretching and heel dips on the stairs etc - icing and heating (heating gives more relief??).
I'm wearing a compression sleeve that is giving good support and have a appt booked with my ST on Tuesday (nothing sooner).

Ironically, I have a scan booked for my knee (which feels great now) on Saturday morning.

Any other words of wisdom out there for Achilles/lower calf injury?

Gavlor · 16-09-2016 8:58am

AuldManKing wrote: »

After a decent 1:24 in Athlone and 3 easy days Sun/Mon/Tues I added 3x15mins @ MP (or slightly faster) to my MLR on Wednesday.

On the last rep I felt a tightness in my lower calf and called a halt to the session, easy jogged back to the car.

I couldn't run Thursday and probably wont over the weekend.
Doing plenty of stretching and heel dips on the stairs etc - icing and heating (heating gives more relief??).
I'm wearing a compression sleeve that is giving good support and have a appt booked with my ST on Tuesday (nothing sooner).

Ironically, I have a scan booked for my knee (which feels great now) on Saturday morning.

Any other words of wisdom out there for Achilles/lower calf injury?

If it's all on the same leg then it could be a chain event from the knee perhaps?

pconn062 · 16-09-2016 10:30am

AuldManKing wrote: »

After a decent 1:24 in Athlone and 3 easy days Sun/Mon/Tues I added 3x15mins @ MP (or slightly faster) to my MLR on Wednesday.

On the last rep I felt a tightness in my lower calf and called a halt to the session, easy jogged back to the car.

I couldn't run Thursday and probably wont over the weekend.
Doing plenty of stretching and heel dips on the stairs etc - icing and heating (heating gives more relief??).
I'm wearing a compression sleeve that is giving good support and have a appt booked with my ST on Tuesday (nothing sooner).

Ironically, I have a scan booked for my knee (which feels great now) on Saturday morning.

Any other words of wisdom out there for Achilles/lower calf injury?

If you think there is a mild tear in the calf then you would be better off not stretching or doing the heel drops, as it could just make it worse. People often panic and jump into doing something when it may not be necessary. The rehab protocol for an achilles issue is quite different from a calf strain/tear issue so it would be better to wait and find out what the issue is first. Icing/compression aren't going to hurt either, so you could keep that up. Any pain when you pinch the middle two inches or so of the achilles?

AuldManKing · 16-09-2016 10:40am

Gavlor wrote: »

If it's all on the same leg then it could be a chain event from the knee perhaps?

Its a consideration alright - good point.

pconn062 wrote: »

If you think there is a mild tear in the calf then you would be better off not stretching or doing the heel drops, as it could just make it worse. People often panic and jump into doing something when it may not be necessary. The rehab protocol for an achilles issue is quite different from a calf strain/tear issue so it would be better to wait and find out what the issue is first. Icing/compression aren't going to hurt either, so you could keep that up. Any pain when you pinch the middle two inches or so of the achilles?

Thanks pconn - good to get that perspective - the course obviously giving you some good knowledge!

The pinch test is giving no pain so I'm hoping its not too serious.

On the upside my ST came back with an appt for later today.

pconn062 · 16-09-2016 10:45am

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thanks pconn - good to get that perspective - the course obviously giving you some good knowledge!

Cetainly helps, plus I've had multiple calf strains and 6 months of achilles issues!

The pinch test is giving no pain so I'm hoping its not too serious.

On the upside my ST came back with an appt for later today.

That's good, I'm guessing soleus/tib posterior tightness, hopefully nothing too serious for you.

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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