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Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

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    #62
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Chem, that's just what he said in the Dail last night and it's been up on oireachtas.ie for a while. It's this bit in the middle we need to find:
    I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
    countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
    majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern
    is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun
    crime.

    I will make a detailed statement in the near future on this matter.


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    #63
    Kimber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭Kimber


    Have our NGB's and our Firearms Legislative Panel made any statement anyone?


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    #64
    chem
    Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭chem


    Sparks wrote: »
    Chem, that's just what he said in the Dail last night and it's been up on oireachtas.ie for a while. It's this bit in the middle we need to find:
    [/B]

    I know sparks. Just got that from DOJ press office and stuck it up to piece together all the snip bits flooting around.

    Getting press statement later from DOJ on whats been reported today. Press office guy said it wont be a blanket ban on pistols


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    #65
    marlin vs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭marlin vs


    We will have to wait and see, and it wont be long now, I don't have a handgun (my choice) but it should be my right to have one if I wanted, it's a disgrace to be putting gun enthusiast's (sportsmen and women) even in the same sentence as criminals, this shouldn't be taken lying down, we are respectable people and should be treated as such.


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    #66
    lancer326
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭lancer326


    could somebody please tell me how may people approx in the country have pistols? how many are we talking about?


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    #67
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Not yet Kimber, but this only hit the wires last night at 0200.


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    #68
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    lancer326 wrote: »
    could somebody please tell me how may people approx in the country have pistols? how many are we talking about?

    About 1700 pistols I think. Don't know how many people are involved, but there won't be many with multiple ones, so probably 1500+


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    #69
    tiny-nioclas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 408 ✭✭tiny-nioclas


    Exactly marlin, i dont have a pistol, but ive full intentions of getting one when the finances are right, if they start this bull again were gonna end up down the same road as hunters did with the no caliber over 22-250 nonsence again, its public hysteria and the media are loving it with their sensationalist ****e, its times like this when hunters and shooters need one good strong group representing us everywhere, we shouldnt have to compromise our sport/hobby to please the stupid elected politicians either, if there is so much crime with legally held pistols why are the bloody guards granting licences to the criminals then? :mad:


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    #70
    lancer326
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭lancer326


    so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public? In the words of the minister...

    "I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
    countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
    majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun crime    ."

    I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here. Is that not a gun designed for army/police/military? is it seriously being argued that a glock is designed to "TARGET SHOOT"?


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    #71
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,974 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Folks,
    As this is a pretty stressful time for us all.[Been working the phones and the coffee machine here all AM].I have noticed a couple of new posters here or low count posters making pretty general enquiries about things handgun related.
    Not casting asperation or implying on anyone of them,BUT I do find it odd that suddenly we have this happening just like right now???
    And for stuff that can be found by simply reading posts from the last couple of weeks and days???? Or by simply googling matters pertaining the dreaded Glocks???
    So ,if you are a Journalist,please SAY SO,and I am sure one of the Mods will gladly direct you to some proper PR people who will comment on this.:)

    If you are an anti...or just looking for a scoop to fill colum space please F£$K off..We are in no mood today to entertain you.:mad:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #72
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    lancer326 wrote: »
    could somebody please tell me how may people approx in the country have pistols? how many are we talking about?
    About 1800 pistols in total, but of that, you've starter pistols and humane dispatch things that aren't really pistols as you'd think of them. Of the target shooting pistols, you'd see more people having more than one than you would with shotguns or rifles. At a rough guess, I'd say you had 1000 to 1200 people with pistols in the country today, and most of those would be air or .22 pistols shooters.


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    #73
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    lancer326 wrote: »
    so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public?

    No, they're trying to save their sport in the face of a smoke and mirrors policy seeking to criminalise law-abiding sporting shooters and deflect attention from governmental deficiencies.
    In the words of the minister...

    "I do not believe that as a matter of public policy we as a people can
    countenance a proliferation of handguns. While I recognise that the vast
    majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun crime    ."

    What's the problem with handguns? Do you have the data nobody else does linking licensed pistols to gun-crime?
    I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here. Is that not a gun designed for army/police/military? is it seriously being argued that a glock is designed to "TARGET SHOOT"?

    What it's designed for and what its common civilian use is are two different things. What's the mystery about Glocks? Banning "Glock" pistols is like banning Kelloggs cornflakes and suggesting people have to eat Aldi-brand. It makes no sense.

    You're suggesting that you know a Glock isn't "designed to target shoot". Where does your expertise come from?


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    #74
    ironsight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭ironsight


    lancer326 wrote: »

    I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here. Is that not a gun designed for army/police/military? is it seriously being argued that a glock is designed to "TARGET SHOOT"?

    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is that not what thye first guns were for, the military, is the humble rimfire .22 with a moderator not used by certain forces here in Ireland as a target specific round?


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    #75
    G17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Folks,
    As this is a pretty stressful time for us all.We are in no mood today to entertain you.:mad:

    Please mods, come down hard on flamers, as you see fit obviously.

    A lot of us are having a bad day with this.


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    #76
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    lancer326 wrote: »
    so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public?
    Nope. They're seeking for that policy to actually secure the safety of the public instead of merely targeting a law-abiding group of people, each of whom is personally certified by a Garda Superintendent (following background checks, access to personal medical records, home inspections, proficiency courses and so on) as being safe.


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    #77
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I have noticed a couple of new posters here or low count posters making pretty general enquiries about things handgun related.
    Journalists are welcome here, as are low-count posters. Hell, bring in all the journalists you can, at least they'll get access to the actual raw data and statements rather than what we've seen from the Times and RTE of late.

    People acting the muppet and trolling are, and have always been, unwelcome - but that does not mean that having opposing views gets you kicked out, it just means everyone has to be civil in here.


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    #78
    Kimber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭Kimber


    Thanks for the relpy,

    Cannot keep up with the replies,

    Certanly worrying time ahead


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    #79
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    ironsight wrote: »
    is the humble rimfire .22 with a moderator not used by certain forces here in Ireland as a target specific round?
    No, it's not. Unless by "target" you mean rabbits. Or, you know, actual paper targets.


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    #80
    lancer326
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭lancer326


    i will never be uncivil. im just trying to understand the ins and outs of the whole issue. i AM NOT a journalist or anything else in the media. im simply a poor aul student doing a paper in college on constitutional law. the Charleton Judgment got me thinking about the whole issue of guns and the law, and the Govt's right to restrict something on a public safety point of view. that's all. sorry if i offended anybody. not my intention.


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    #81
    ironsight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭ironsight


    Sparks wrote: »
    No, it's not. Unless by "target" you mean rabbits. Or, you know, actual paper targets.

    My error SPARKS, phrased very badly and I sppologise please delete or ammend !


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    #82
    Rovi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I have noticed a couple of new posters here or low count posters making pretty general enquiries about things handgun related.
    Sparks wrote: »
    Journalists are welcome here, as are low-count posters. Hell, bring in all the journalists you can, at least they'll get access to the actual raw data and statements rather than what we've seen from the Times and RTE of late.

    People acting the muppet and trolling are, and have always been, unwelcome - but that does not mean that having opposing views gets you kicked out, it just means everyone has to be civil in here.
    Also, this is a very busy thread, so it's bouncing around at the top of the 'Latest Post' list on the front page of Boards.ie, so people who'd not normally come in here (or even know 'here' exists) are clicking into it.


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    #83
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    The transcript from last nights debate in the Dail is now up on the oireactas website here:
    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20081118.xml&Node=H17#H17
    Apart from the Minister's comments on curtailing licence handguns and having it policy-driven, no-one else even mentioned it.


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    #84
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    lancer326 wrote: »
    i will never be uncivil. im just trying to understand the ins and outs of the whole issue. i AM NOT a journalist or anything else in the media. im simply a poor aul student doing a paper in college on constitutional law. the Charleton Judgment got me thinking about the whole issue of guns and the law, and the Govt's right to restrict something on a public safety point of view. that's all. sorry if i offended anybody. not my intention.

    Rights? Yeah, they have the right to legislate against it, but this is a moral decision, frankly. To gloss over their own problems, they're attempting to suggest that licensed firearms are a threat to the public (which they're not), but if you get enough people to believe it, the legislation goes through quickly and neatly and the Minister is hailed as the guy who prevented an Irish Dunblane. This is clearly not the case, but appearances are everything in politics. To badly paraphrase Machiavelli, if you can't be good, at least be seen to be good.


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    #85
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    lancer326 wrote: »
    so 1700 people are seeking to stop a democratically elected Dail from implementing a policy for the safety of the public?

    The safety of the public is at no risk whatsoever from legally held firearms, be they pistols or larger weapons of any calibre, nor did he state that.

    Secondly, if the argument was potential risk, thats sheer speculation, as no incidents of note have occurred. However, were we to go down that road, no male under the age of 30 would be allowed drive an automobile, based on incidents that have occurred, and rates of serious death and injury. Unfortunately the argument based on statistics re cars is not as easily sold as the one relating to fear and firearms.

    There is such a thing as "tyranny of the majority" which many states take precautions against. This is what happens where no such precautions exist.

    lancer326 wrote: »
    I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue is all about glocks here.

    I'm afraid you're entirely wrong. A 'glock' is merely a brand of pistol. It fires the same calibre bullet as many others, as accurately as many others. A 9mm bullet from a Glock is no more deadly than a 9mm round from a pistol designed many years before. There are very few of them in this country legally.


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    #86
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    lancer326 wrote: »
    i will never be uncivil. im just trying to understand the ins and outs of the whole issue. i AM NOT a journalist or anything else in the media. im simply a poor aul student doing a paper in college on constitutional law. the Charleton Judgment got me thinking about the whole issue of guns and the law, and the Govt's right to restrict something on a public safety point of view. that's all. sorry if i offended anybody. not my intention.
    Zero problem there - but do remember to do a check on precedents set in the other 70-odd cases which disagreed with Charleton's take on things.


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    #87
    G17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    From reliable source, not a blanket ban, from his communication just now with powers that be. No further specific details despite a prolonged attempt to extract.


    I'm quite willing to post postive hearsay as the negatives are all too prolific......


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    #88
    trapmando
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭trapmando


    Are there actually any figures indicating how many legally held handguns were stolen or used in criminality after they were stolen? It might be the case that all the legally held hand guns issued over the last 3 or 4 years are still legal and safely held, with none being stolen or used in criminality?

    So it may be useful to get the facts and figures to build a case to prove that it's not the legally issued handguns that are causing the problem, and that a banning of them wont make a difference according to this evidence


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    #89
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Well, hearsay's all that's been seen in the times so far...


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    #90
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    trapmando wrote: »
    Are there actually any figures indicating how many legally held handguns were stolen or used in criminality after they were stolen?
    None. We've asked twice in the Dail over the past two years, and each time the Minister has said no such figures exist. And six days ago, the Commissioner said the same thing to the Public Accounts Committee (the transcript is up in the other thread on Deasy&Mitchell's comments, and the minister's questions are in the Parlimentary Questions thread).


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    #91
    trapmando
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭trapmando


    They seem pretty quick and able to get figures for those issued but not those stolen or used in crime? Surely they have some more evidence to warrant a ban than 'someone else shot with a handgun, lets ban them!'

    They would be leaving themselves open for a European court challenge to a ban based on no evidence!


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