Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

kerryman12

The folks to be angry at here are RTE and the Times, they've essentially manufactured this through Deasy's comments and Mitchell's. They've misreported what the Minister and Commissioner have said (usually reporting the exact opposite of what they said), and refused to talk to us. Them I'm really angry at.

I believe you are only partially right here. Yes you are right in terms of the commissioners comments . The media will always do what every it take to sell papers or get rating - spin is the name of the game. But it is to much of a coincidence that all of this comments from FG/FF and the Garda's just happens to be at the same time as high profile crime in Limerick. I dont want to go all big brother here, but it appears to me there is a hidden agenda here.

That is why it is imperative to stay calm. Dont let yourself be provoked - it suits this agenda.

thehair

this is a very sad day for all the good/decent/law abiding/honest/people
involved in all disciplins of sports shooting in ireland.

this is very unfair to all off the above

Just remember, keep it calm and polite. Yelling and shouting won't do anything for anybody THAT I AGREE WITH STEVE

THE CRIMINAL ARE LOOK AFTER MUCH MORE THAT ANY OF THE ABOVE=HOW
FREE LEGAL AID +THE RIGHT TO APPEAL+FREE TO WALK AND DRIVE THERE
FANCY BULLIT PROVE CARS . RANT OVER:mad: STEVE

a bit to much

---

i have read throught the 133 post on here and god help the media monsters
and the 2 Fine Gael's boyo if they ever found out that there is more than
one maker of handgun and his name is not MR GLOCK i do not have or
own a pistol . the people that have a PISTOL USED FOR THERE SPORT must
have spend a lot of money on them now it is looking like lets pick on the
pistol this YEAR and next YEAR CENTREFIRE RIFLES AND THEN RINFIRE RIFLES
AND ALL AIR RIFLES and then we can all sleep better at night am i losing
fait about the FCP a bit i have a cz 452 rinfire i have TWO SAFES AND NEW
DOORS AND WINDOWS (it is cold down in mayo) their is to much BAD media
out the last 6 months IT IS NO JOKE steve

Sparks

The Evening Herald editorial would be laughable under other circumstances:

The ban on handguns makes sense
Wednesday November 19 2008

IT is quite extraordinary that the Cabinet has taken this long to crackdown on the licensing of handguns. While the majority of handgun owners may very well be responsible people, no one can ignore the explosion of gun crime and murder on city streets.

The increased growth of gun licences, in the four years since the High Court overturned a 30-year ruling banning them, is astonishing.

Almost 2,000 people currently have handguns for sporting purposes with a licence sanctioned by a local Garda Superintendent but the legislation is unclear and has been applied inconsistently.

Under the proposed new laws there will be no ambiguity. Those with licensed guns will have to get rid of them or face criminal prosecution.

This may discommode a few sporting enthusiasts but a ban would mean anyone caught with a handgun could offer no justification and would face the rigours of the law.

You wouldn't know where to begin with that one.

kerryman12

what is it with these guys...

would mean anyone caught with a handgun could offer no justification and would face the rigours of the law.

Just think about that statement for a minute. yes exactly, nonsence. This is why we have a liceancing system in the first place - in the name of god.

M14

Sparks wrote: »

The Evening Herald editorial would be laughable under other circumstances:You wouldn't know where to begin with that one.

Dear sweet suffering jeebus.
Please tell me our hard earned tax money didn't subsidise this "journalists" college course

thehair

Sparks wrote: »

The Evening Herald editorial would be laughable under other circumstances:You wouldn't know where to begin with that one.

HANDLE WITH CARE AND BURN VERY FAST LIKE ALL OTHER PAPERS :eek:

Blazher

Sparks wrote: »

The Evening Herald editorial would be laughable under other circumstances:You wouldn't know where to begin with that one.

It would be nice if the press would proof the content before they post it.

"2000 people have handguns?"

The stuff i have been reading makes me cry, If this is what the " Free Press " are able to do.

If its not from the MoJ then i am not going to read it.

thehair

The Evening Herald editorial would be laughable under other circumstances:

THEY HAVE TO SALE THERE PAPERS TO MR GOB S-HI-T WHO KNOW
FECK ALL ABOUT SPORTS SHOOTING IN IRELAND

Grizzly 45

Dr Gobbels would have been proud of this propaganda campain.:mad:
I wouldnt be surprised if the new restrictions require us gunowners to wear a Yellow star with GUNOWNER written on it in the future.:mad:

I CHALLANGE the Evening Herald and minister Aherne to re re evaluate their editorial and stance once the next innocent person is shot with an illegal firearm in Ireland .
IOW Any more great ideas wiseguys???
So what caused that?Legal firearms owners no doubt???Well sorry no...you took all their nasty handguns away..So dont blame them.

This is a day that should go down in infamy in the Irish gunowners calender for evermore.This BLACK Wednesday.

BryanL

I think it's reasonable to ask, TD's, the Minister and Dept's How is this Targeting gun Crime? Is it not a complete smokescreen? How will it in any way affect the guns in criminal hands?

Also is it possible for anyone to get the actual number of fullbore handguns licensed ?
Bryan

Sparks

BryanL wrote: »

Also is it possible for anyone to get the actual number of fullbore handguns licensed ?
Bryan

Been asked for in the Dail several times since June, but the answer is always that it'd take an excessive amount of Garda time to collate that information.

pm.

Sparks wrote: »

The Evening Herald editorial would be laughable under other circumstances:You wouldn't know where to begin with that one.

I cant believe it the Herald lol they break the law every day with people recklessly walking at just about any road in Dublin with a traffic light. i dont have a hand gun but i do have a center fire rifle so i know its only a matter of time until i have to give it up because some scumbag was shot with a "sniper rifle" what a sh..it country we are :mad:

Sparks

The Irish Times is still off on it's own little end run:

Ahern outlines handgun ban proposals
KILIAN DOYLE

The Government has outlined its proposals for a ban on licensing handguns, which may be expanded to include all firearms in the future.

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern said the legislation, which will be published shortly as part of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous) Provisions Bill, had been drawn up in response to increasing concern over the proliferation of firearms.

A "temporary custody order" on handguns, which was imposed in the early 1970s due to the Troubles, was overturned by the High Court in 2004. Since then, nearly 1,900 have been licensed in the State. It is expected that figure could exceed 4,000 within three years,.

“My concern is that unless strong and decisive action is taken the number of handguns could grow exponentially and our firearms regime would equate to that of countries such as the United States,” Mr Ahern said.

“While I know the vast majority of licensed gun owners behave responsibly, my paramount concern must be the protection of the public, particularly against the background of the level of gun crime which is taking place,” Mr Ahern added.

Under the proposals, no new licences will be issued for handguns and existing licenses will not be renewed unless applications fully meet the requirements of “a radically tightened licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount”, the Minister said.

Any licence awarded between now and the enactment of the new legislation will be revoked.

Mr Ahern said the situation regarding handguns will be kept under review and could lead to an outright ban on all guns if firearms remain a threat to public safety.

The only exemptions will be for those using handguns for Olympic sports. Mr Ahern said the the majority of gun owners will not be inconvenienced as they have “no interest” in acquiring handguns.

Figures obtained two weeks ago by John Deasy TD (FG) revealed major inconsistencies in the way gardaí across the State were interpreting laws around the granting of handgun licences.

Some Garda districts have granted no licences for handguns while others, in more sparsely populated areas, have been much more liberal, issuing between 50 and 100 licences a year.

The total number of firearms licences issued, for all gun types, reached 233,934 in the 12-month period to July 31st last. This figure has grown steadily from 215,856 in 2004.

© 2008 irishtimes.com

BornToKill

BryanL wrote: »

I think it's reasonable to ask, TD's, the Minister and Dept's How is this Targeting gun Crime? Is it not a complete smokescreen? How will it in any way affect the guns in criminal hands?

It won't have much - if any - effect on gun crime or guns in criminal hands. It is clear from the press release that this is seen as a preventative measure:

The Minister said "While I regret the need for these proposals, the reality is that if we were subject to a Dunblane type incident or stolen legal handguns were used to kill innocent civilians the present situation, which has not arisen as the result of any policy decision, would be impossible to justify."
19 November 2008

chem

Hi all. Been emailing and calling offices all day.

No replies yet. Office staff not much help. Lady in Aherns office in Dundalk told me none had a need for a pistol anyways and that they were been ordered over the net and they knew several people who reported it to the office!! She also said she had a gun licence but didnt have a gun because she wouldnt want one in the house. I ask you!

Ireland is still very backwards in its thinking.

So back to the point at hand.

When is the ban coming in?
What are the new security hoops?
How does FG feel about the new laws?
Can we stop this from going ahead?
Can we invite Mr. Ahern to a range to see pistol shooting in pratice?
Will the FCP make a statement?
Will clubs in the north allow us to keep pistols as club guns?
Will any of the governing bodies mail members to try get grass root suport for pistol shooters?
Whats the chances of any super granting licence before ban is in place?

Folks the minister has said he will ban ANY firearm that is seen as a problem so it could be anyone next. Kids shooting windows with airsoft/unlicened airgun. Sporting fullbore rifle found in criminals hands (as has already been found). Sawn off shotgun used in crime. 22 rifle used in crime and everything else in between.

TIME TO DRAW YOUR LINE IN THE SAND

Saddlebags

chem wrote: »

Minister Dermot Ahern Outlines Handguns Ban

The Bill will provide for the revocation of any handgun licenses which may
be issued between now and the enactment of the legislation and it is
intended that anyone applying for a handgun license in that period will be
informed of that fact.

19 November 2008

WHAT!!!! So, if you were one of the lucky ones that had a reasonable super, you may be able to keep your pistol? But no one else can have one!
BANANA REPUBLIC !!!!!!!
What about the cases still before the high court? Where do they come in? If they had been dealt with reasonably, then they would have their pistols and could maybe hold on to them. They are not new as such, so what kind of limbo are they in?

.50 (MOA)

An outright ban on handguns would do nothing to cut gun crime in Ireland.

Since the majority of guncrime is perpetrated by criminals who do not, and indeed can not be certified for any firearm let alone a handgun. criminals will therefore not be affected by a ban, they will continue to obtain their
illegal handguns, as they already do, by illegal importation, most likely along with their latest drug shipment. sort of a free toy in the cereal box type arrangement.

As has been stated before in other posts there is no evidence that links legally held handguns with crime. This isvery true, if only the gardai would compile useful figures on what fireatms that been seized in recent years in regard to whether they were legally held at the time or whether they were ever legally held. It seems that most of the statements make no differentiation between legally held arms and the illegal arms in use by criminals, and therefore they areeffectively putting the law-abiding target shooter, with not a drop of malicious intent in his/her body, into the same group as some criminal druglord with a score to be settled. It is not the gun that causes harm it is the person holding it at the time that is the problem. this is the reason for the extra security measures required by superintendants in granting the licences. the difference in legally held and illegally held firearms needs to be stressed at all times, unfortunately the difference often falls by the wayside when our elected representatives are hoping to gain some momentum for their cause.

The first thing any shooter learns is not to point it at anything you don't want to hit, this becomes so engrained in a shooting persons psyche that when they see a gun being pointed in the wrong direction by- most often -an inexperienced shooter they will noticeably flinch at the sight of such a thing occuring, and will immediately correct the person in order that they avoid it in future.This is what sets apart a target shooter and a criminal, the criminal will easily point it at another human being, without even a
thought that it feels wrong, A shooter, who was certain that his gun was unloded, and the bolt removed, would have a hard time pointing it at someone who also knew it was unloded and the bolt removed, because you are always taught to treat it as if it were loaded. this makes shooters the least likely of all to be a danger to public safety, a shooter will not take a shot that has the remotest possibility of harming another individual. Criminals on the other hand only ever take shots intent on harm, using illegal firearms that wont be removed from circulation by any ban.
Banning handguns and thereby removing them from the gunsafes of ireland will reduce the tiny number that are stolen and subsequently used in crime. I beleive that other postings have been unable to determine whether or not such a crime has actually ever been perpetrated and as such i dont beleive that this vague possibility can be used as a basis for a ban. most illegal handguns are imported illegally and never see the inside of a gunsafe. banning them and disenfranchising the shooters, firearms dealers and range owners is not the way to go.

The system as it is cannot be faulted, handguns are the hardest of all types of firearms to obtain a licence for, and with most people with handgun licences also possessing other firearms such as a shotgun or a rifle the lack of risk to public safety is even more assured, due to the greater certainty as to the character of the individual.

I do understand that some crime involves legally heldarms and this has to be dealt with somehow, but banning handguns will not remove this, someone who owns a legally held firearm, who, for whatever reason, often in the heat of the moment, commits a firearms offence, will have their firearms seized and will be tried through the courts. whether or not it is a handgun is immaterial, for example a likely conviction in this case might be "illegal discharge of a firearm" no mention of whether or not its a handgun.

This is what happens in a democratic society where the people have rights, but alsoresponsibilities. the people have a right to own firearms of
various types, but they also have the responsibility not to abuse that right and the responsibility of ensuring that they do not cause harm. on the other hand the government also has the right to impose restrictions on whatever they deem to be in the interests of public safety and those opposed to the governments actions have the right to argue their side and put their point across and hopefully come to a balanced and pleasing to all parties solution.

Sparks

Just merging stuff up - if we start a dozen threads, noone can keep track of anything.

chem wrote: »

When is the ban coming in?

Whenever the new stuff for the Misc. bill is agreed with the FCP and the bill is passed, I suppose.

What are the new security hoops?

To be decided.

How does FG feel about the new laws?

Don't know.

Can we stop this from going ahead?

It's not law yet, so possibly. Sufficient support from the grassroots and the FCP being pragmatic might avert the worst of this. Maybe.[/quote]Can we invite Mr. Ahern to a range to see pistol shooting in pratice?[/quote]We can do that whenever we want, and we should be doing it more. Every match needs someone to hand out the prizes and get into the photos.

Will the FCP make a statement?

I don't know, but I think they pretty much need to do so, quickly.

Will clubs in the north allow us to keep pistols as club guns?

Down to them, really.

Will any of the governing bodies mail members to try get grass root suport for pistol shooters?

Already been done by some of them and by some clubs.

Whats the chances of any super granting licence before ban is in place?

Depends on the super.

Not many answers there I'm afraid

Folks the minister has said he will ban ANY firearm that is seen as a problem

Actually, no he hasn't. He has said he'll have that ability written into the bill. But that power's been his since the CJA2006 in effect anyway. We need to be precise with this - exaggerating stuff only leads us into Irish Times territory
(in fact, see their article above)

BryanL

Sparks wrote: »

Been asked for in the Dail several times since June, but the answer is always that it'd take an excessive amount of Garda time to collate that information.

They don't even know how many fullbore licences they've handed out?
They don't know how many crimes (if any) have been carried out by legally held pistols?

What exactly do they know?
Bryan

Kareir

Weird thing to me seems to be the fact that pistol owners must sell their pistols before the new licence renewal (as they wont be renewed) and if they havnt sold them by then they can be charged...

_kar.

Grizzly 45

And who exactly is going to buy them???Irish gun dealers,sit on then a huge un moveable amount of stock.Where or to whom are they going to shift them onto?
Am beginning to wonder ;
is this statement that NO NEW liscenses will be granted...
Mean no newbies or applications for other handguns owned by already cleared liscensed holders between now and July 31st 09 will be considerd?

That those who want to keep their liscenses,and have to jump thru whatever new hoops and loops the DOJ Circus comes up with,will be allowed as this kills any claims of compensation on the Govt[who are broke].
Kind of makes sense..Allow those die hards to keep their liscenses as they obviously will fork up the dosh,or act like performing dogs to keep their handguns,and that negates any claims for compo of legally siezed property.

IRLConor

Kareir wrote: »

Weird thing to me seems to be the fact that pistol owners must sell their pistols before the new licence renewal (as they wont be renewed) and if they havnt sold them by then they can be charged...

Another option would be to find a firearms dealer inside or outside the state who'd be willing to store the handgun until it could be sold.

DURC had fullbore rifles (7.62 I think) some years ago that we couldn't license over here. We stored them with a dealer in Bisley and used them occasionally over there. Perhaps a dealer in the north or in the Isle of Man will offer a similar deal for Irish handgun owners.

TargetWidow

Are you an ill informed politician or journalist? Are you going to have to eat your words in a few days when the shooting community look for your skins? Fear not! Target Widow is here to help.
This is Firearms Backpeddling 101 for idiots. Read on...
1. The 1972 "Handgun Ban" that is being bandied about is actually this......
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1972/en/si/0187.html
Nice and short and sweet and will not tax the limited concentration span of any Fianna Fail headline seekers or their sycophantic journo chums from The Times or other cat litter-box liner publications.
2. The Small Arms Survey which was conducted in 2007 by researchers at the Graduate Institute of International Studies in Geneva and which was published in the latter half of last year, but not widely reported at the time....
" But the Garda Síochána’s most serious concern is not “traditional gun ownership, but an invasion of handguns and automatics smuggled in from Europe”, the survey points out.

Illegally held, unlicensed firearms are estimated to number at least 150,000, and this figure “could be considerably higher”, the survey says. Of greatest concern are the weapons in the hands of criminal gangs, many of which are semi-automatic pistols and submachine guns. “They have fuelled unprecedented, murderous rivalries among drug gangs,” the survey states.

Citing work from other researchers, it adds: “Small arms proliferation appears to be an unexpected consequence of integration into a border-free Europe, leaving national leaders and law enforcement officials struggling to cope.”

The survey acknowledges the three-fold response of the authorities here: the crackdown on smuggling; the 2006 amnesty for illegal firearms and an increase in the number of gardaí. (Source Irish Examiner 02/06/2008)". Check it out here...
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/06/02/story64050.asp

3.What has changed since 30/10/2008 when in the DOJ website the published figures are...
"The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Dermot Ahern T.D., said the latest statistics on recorded crime for the third quarter of 2008 - released by the Central Statistics Office today – show welcome reductions across a wide range of offences. Of the 14 crime groups for which statistics are given, 10 show reductions.".....
"The crime groups Controlled Drug Offences and Weapons and Explosives Offences show increases in the quarter of 25.4% and 6.6% respectively. The recording of such offences is to a significant extent the result of continuing increased Garda activity and, accordingly, while reflected in the statistics as increases in crime, have to be assessed in that context. The one significant exception, which confirms trends, is discharging a firearm, which declined by 35.7% in the quarter."
Even the good Minister accepts that the figures are only up because the Gardai got their collective fingers out.
4.And this one is for the journalists who clearly CANNOT read....
Minister Ahern himself did not say anything about handguns owners needing to sell their handguns. He said no new licences would be granted and that existing licensed handgun owners would have to "fully meet the requirements of a radically tightened licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount".
5.Logic for Journalists 101...
And anyway, in a country with a total handgun ban, who would you sell them to? Apart from the lads in the gangs that is.

Grizzly 45

[

quote=IRLConor;57962659]Another option would be to find a firearms dealer inside or outside the state who'd be willing to store the handgun until it could be sold.

Am already working on this my friends!
I am in contact with some gun dealers and orginsations in Germany.
If this goes ahead ,there would be no reason whatsoever to sell your guns,you could keep them in storage over there,and there are plenty of Ryanair flites going that way from both the East and West of Ireland.


Am calling this Project Wild Geese[thought it was a nice Irish historical touch:D]

Please PM me for details under that heading,if intrested.:)

jwshooter

its coming to a head now , owning a firearm in this country is a privilege not a right were not in the usa . far too many gun owners driving around with loaded guns day and nite shooting wild life ,road signs and what ever takes there Fancie .i have heard of a guy walking in to a gun shop in wx with a load 92f under his arm ,a guy stopped in dublin with a pistol on his hip ,a deer hunter walking into a spar with a loaded 44 on his hip and a guy on a building site in donegal wearing one all target shooters me hole .every month in the digest cal ward crapping on about military weapons and loading and a gun dealer shooting concrete blocks to dust with high power rifles this is not low profile . this my friends as i have said does not go un noticed ,we will be doing well is mr murphy leaves it at pistols .you can only kick a dog so many times before it turns on you

sixpointfive

Agreed, im suprized there has not been a serious "incident" with a legally held pistol in this country, a garda i know told me that in the last year in one town in the west of ireland two legally held pistols have been drawn in separate disputes in public houses/premises, now i dont know how true that is but he would have no reason to fabricate, he is a very keen hunter/shooter himself, and i know another guy who wears his 9mm on his belt 24/7 and thinks it is his right to do so and im sure he is not the only one out there as he has often told me i should always carry mine with me " just in case" ?????? no thanks,

bunny shooter

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Minister%20Dermot%20Ahern%20Outlines%20Handguns%20Ban

BornToKill

jwshooter wrote: »

we will be doing well is mr murphy leaves it at pistols .you can only kick a dog so many times before it turns on you

You can add to that list the 60 or whatever it is cases challenging Garda decisions not to license. Expensive lawyers and barristers picking at points of law and looking for any error. Throw in the more unusual disciplines of pistol target shooting and you really start to draw attention.

Bananaman

6.5 - sounds like a load of cr@p to me.

If a Garda knew of someone who "drew a pistol in public" he would arrest them - there is no defence for doing something like that.

As to your mate who says he "wears" his firearm - I doubt it - if he does you should report him to the Gardai - "just in case"

B'Man

linuxman52000

chem wrote: »

Hi all. Been emailing and calling offices all day.

No replies yet. Office staff not much help. Lady in Aherns office in Dundalk told me none had a need for a pistol anyways and that they were been ordered over the net and they knew several people who reported it to the office!! She also said she had a gun licence but didnt have a gun because she wouldnt want one in the house. I ask you!

Ireland is still very backwards in its thinking.

So back to the point at hand.

When is the ban coming in?
What are the new security hoops?
How does FG feel about the new laws?
Can we stop this from going ahead?
Can we invite Mr. Ahern to a range to see pistol shooting in pratice?
Will the FCP make a statement?
Will clubs in the north allow us to keep pistols as club guns?
Will any of the governing bodies mail members to try get grass root suport for pistol shooters?
Whats the chances of any super granting licence before ban is in place?

Folks the minister has said he will ban ANY firearm that is seen as a problem so it could be anyone next. Kids shooting windows with airsoft/unlicened airgun. Sporting fullbore rifle found in criminals hands (as has already been found). Sawn off shotgun used in crime. 22 rifle used in crime and everything else in between.

TIME TO DRAW YOUR LINE IN THE SAND

Well folks, it's happened. Are wo gong to behave like we did in 72 or are we going to fight. It's not all over yet unless we want it to be.The local & European elections are coming up in the new year, it's time to show them through the ballot box what we feel. I mean that it's up to each & every one of us to do our part in this stupid war & not leave it to the few like the last time. We all have family & friends who vote, get to them & explain the stupidity of it all. I've sent a stinker of a mail to Aherns office & tried to get on to the G Ryan & Joe Duffy shows today but neither were interested!!
If enough of us call the shows on Thursday we might get a few mins to explain the other side.