Irish Post Codes

xOxSinéadxOx · 13-09-2008 1:06am

yes but they couldn't bin ALL the letters!

garydubh · 13-09-2008 10:11am

mackerski wrote: »

Calling these postcodes is a bit of a stretch. They appear to be a proprietary idea of one company with no official standing. You might just as well suggest that an OSI grid reference is a postcode.

towel401 wrote: »

why would a country bring in another confusing number system just because a few sleazy web programmers can't deal with the fact that some people don't have post codes? that doesn't make any sense

the only reason for post codes is to make sure insecure types don't get any post from people they havn't told the address to. of course a determined stalker will just put the mail bomb in the letterbox themselves but thats another story

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

but surely if they introduced postcodes nobody would use them?

...... your arguments are frequently made but the bottom line is that if you delivered a service by road daily as part of your work you would realise that Post Codes are little to do with mail and more to do with being able to navigate along roads exactly to addresses rather than spending time, fuel and phone calls trying to find them. With 0.5 million commercial vehicles on our roads and 1 million visitors by road to Ireland annually - it essential that they can get to where they are going efficiently, nowadays using PostCodes on SatNav's. Furthermore, deliveries off the web are the biggest area of growth for couriers. All of these will not put up with bad road signs and vague address and wasted time and money anymore. These justiciations also apply to emergency services (including mobile doctor services)who are crying out for more efficient ways to speed up getting to addresses when called. We must remember that a large percentage of our poulation live ouside cities!!!

On the matter of what is a Post Code?? Well PON Codes actually satisfy all the requirements of ComReg and the NSB in Ireland and the UPU internationally. Whether a Post Code is that or not is judged by what it does or can do rather than how or why it is constructed. PON Codes satisfy all these requirements and more than this are already in use and can be used on a Garmin SatNavs for commercial navigation purposes.

For more reading on background etc have a look here: http://www.gpsireland.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=79

coffee_cake · 13-09-2008 10:23am

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

yes but they couldn't bin ALL the letters!

they could make a start

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0909/germany.html

garydubh · 13-09-2008 10:29am

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0909/1220629653090.html

PON Codes satisfy the consultants requirements - www.irishpostcodes.ie

Sam Vimes · 13-09-2008 10:37am

kayos wrote: »

Geocodes are up and running and used in home insurance, by some companies, for identifing houses in flood or subsidence areas.

Do we need them for post? Not really but it would not hurt.

spoken like a man who's never seen the irish government try to run a project

watna · 13-09-2008 10:58am

They have postcodes in NZ i.e. mine ie Wellington 6021 (I think) but loads of people don't use them and the post gets there fine. I'm not sure why they need them to be honest. The population of the greater Wellington area (i.e. all the sububs stretching out) is less than 400,000 whereas the population of the greater Dublin area is 1.8 million.

It is a relief when filling out internet forms to have a post code now though after years of putting in 00000 or n/a and have the site freak out.

eamon234 · 13-09-2008 11:04am

ScumLord wrote: »

We don't need postcodes. Our postmen are in a class of their own when it comes to mail delivery, there's no where you can hide, they will find you.

It's not the postmen that are the problem - it's the dumbass couriers other companies seem to be using more and more these days - try giving them directions to a rural house.

garydubh · 13-09-2008 11:09am

watna wrote: »

They have postcodes in NZ i.e. mine ie Wellington 6021 (I think) but loads of people don't use them and the post gets there fine. I'm not sure why they need them to be honest. The population of the greater Wellington area (i.e. all the sububs stretching out) is less than 400,000 whereas the population of the greater Dublin area is 1.8 million.

It is a relief when filling out internet forms to have a post code now though after years of putting in 00000 or n/a and have the site freak out.

Ok lets try not call them Post Codes - lets call them PON Codes (Position Orientated Navigation Codes) because the biggest demand for these codes is not for Post or Mail but for vehicles - I bet in NZ, SatNav's use the local Code but users would prefer if the resolution was better to get people to the door. Furthermore, I do not reckon that NZ has 40% non unique addresses as we do have here - eg. I have counted eight "Church Roads" in Dublin alone

blubloblu · 13-09-2008 11:13am

An Post have said before that they don't need postcodes because their OCR machines are able to handle addresses properly.

watna · 13-09-2008 11:19am

garydubh wrote: »

Ok lets try not call them Post Codes - lets call them PON Codes (Position Orientated Navigation Codes) because the biggest demand for these codes is not for Post or Mail but for vehicles - I bet in NZ, SatNav's use the local Code but users would prefer if the resolution was better to get people to the door. Furthermore, I do not reckon that NZ has 40% non unique addresses as we do have here - eg. I have counted eight "Church Roads" in Dublin alone

Why not call them post codes? That's what they're are called officially here and NZ post assigns them (http://www.nzpost.co.nz/Cultures/en-NZ/OnlineTools/PostCodeFinder/) - even if people only use them for sat nav.

What are 40% non unique adresses? Do you mean that 40% of Irish addreses are not unique and that there is more than one of them? It's not clear from your post above.

garydubh · 13-09-2008 11:19am

blubloblu wrote: »

An Post have said before that they don't need postcodes because their OCR machines are able to handle addresses properly.

garydubh wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0909/1220629653090.html

PON Codes satisfy the consultants requirements - www.irishpostcodes.ie

An Post have been "convinced" to Support any adopted system - see the link to the Irish Times article of this week above. Don't forget that in early 2010 the Postal Market gets deregulated so that anyone with a license can deliver mail. An Post's knowledge advantage can no longer be preserved in the face of open competition - that is why Post Codes must be introduced. Furthermore, the model for delivering post will then change - with competition the delivery routes will be less dense and more likely to be done by vehicle rather than deicated postman on a dedicated route. This is why PON Codes are required to satisfy route planning and delivery navigation with SatNavs as well as for all ther other vehicle based services provided in Ireland every day of the week!!!

Sam Vimes · 13-09-2008 11:21am

blubloblu wrote: »

An Post have said before that they don't need postcodes because their OCR machines are able to handle addresses properly.

but then again an post aren't the only people who need to find your house. i think i'm going to start putting in coordinates if it'll accept them

garydubh · 13-09-2008 11:29am

watna wrote: »

Why not call them post codes? That's what they're are called officially here and NZ post assigns them (http://www.nzpost.co.nz/Cultures/en-NZ/OnlineTools/PostCodeFinder/) - even if people only use them for sat nav.

What are 40% non unique adresses? Do you mean that 40% of Irish addreses are not unique and that there is more than one of them? It's not clear from your post above.

Several years ago an ambulance in Wexford was 30 mins late arriving at the correct address...why?....because they went to the same house and street number address no more than 20km away. i.e. the call out address was non unique.

So 40% of street and townland addresses in Ireland are repeated either in the same county or within a very short distance away!!! This is a fact well documented and stems from our historic townland based addressing system and of the 55,000 townlands in Ireland many have the same name!! Futhermore our planning laws do not prevent duplicate street names in close proximity to each other. How many Rathmores are there in Ireland - how many Hillcrests are there???

garydubh · 13-09-2008 11:33am

Sam Vimes wrote: »

but then again an post aren't the only people who need to find your house. i think i'm going to start putting in coordinates if it'll accept them

Sam Vimes - PON codes are coordinates - just using a mathematical method to shorten Lat/long or ITM Grid to 7 characters instead of 16 or 12 characters respectively (Lat/long or Grid Coordinates are too awkward and too confusing to use and too long to remember)

The PON Code - W5K 59VN defines a position to +/- 6 meters accuracy. Put it in here and see it on the map: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/ponc/poncviewl.php

watna · 13-09-2008 11:37am

garydubh wrote: »

Several years ago an ambulance in Wexford was 30 mins late arriving at the correct address...why?....because they went to the same house and street number address no more than 20km away. i.e. the call out address was non unique.

So 40% of street and townland addresses in Ireland are repeated either in the same county or within a very short distance away!!! This is a fact well documented and stems from our historic townland based addressing system and of the 55,000 townlands in Ireland many have the same name!! Futhermore our planning laws do not prevent duplicate street names in close proximity to each other. How many Rathmores are there in Ireland - how many Hillcrests are there???

Ah, thought that's what you meant it but just wanted to check becuase of the wording you used.

It does make sense to have postcodes in situations like above but would a postcode be given to emergency crews? Presumably only if the person giving the details was aware there was another similar address.

My point about them having postcodes in NZ is that Wellington is tiny in comparison to Dublin yet has postcodes and Dublin doesn't. It definitely seems strange to me.

garydubh · 13-09-2008 11:48am

watna wrote: »

My point about them having postcodes in NZ is that Wellington is tiny in comparison to Dublin yet has postcodes and Dublin doesn't. It definitely seems strange to me.

It's a fact of life now - same as having to remember your Mobile Number as well as a land line number and several PIN and PUC numbers - users names, passwords and Post Codes are a fact of modern life. Post Codes in Ireland were supposed to be in place by Jan 2008. That did not happen so as a result of that the PON Code system which had been developed privately since 2006 was made publicly available an it is now getting wide use (see here: http://www.travelshopireland.com/featured-accommodation/hotels/carrigaline-court-hotel-and-leisure-centre.html )

and can be used on Garmin Nuvi 700 series SatNav's. PON Codes are a candidate system for any National System whenever it is put in place but in the meantime they can be used by anyone without pain of death or excommunication!!!!

towel401 · 13-09-2008 12:59pm

garydubh wrote: »

It's a fact of life now - same as having to remember your Mobile Number as well as a land line number and several PIN and PUC numbers - users names, passwords and Post Codes are a fact of modern life. Post Codes in Ireland were supposed to be in place by Jan 2008. That did not happen so as a result of that the PON Code system which had been developed privately since 2006 was made publicly available an it is now getting wide use (see here: http://www.travelshopireland.com/featured-accommodation/hotels/carrigaline-court-hotel-and-leisure-centre.html )

and can be used on Garmin Nuvi 700 series SatNav's. PON Codes are a candidate system for any National System whenever it is put in place but in the meantime they can be used by anyone without pain of death or excommunication!!!!

so it's just post codes for the sake of post codes? if these sat nav manufacturers want to use codes beside regular coordinates i don't mind but they shouldn't force this on the postal system.

this is the modern world, progress, urbanisation, and everyone else has a post code so we must get one too. although we don't need one. lets just get another annoying number for the sake of it. i can remember addresses easily but i usually have to look up the post codes which is a pain.

and stop going on about sat navs or "SatNavs". there are plenty of ways those things can find a house without imposing a national postcode system. do any of the things still accept coordinates anyway? i just use an ordinary handheld GPS. don't like these touch-screen based toys that baby you through your journey.

m@cc@ · 13-09-2008 1:10pm

rhapsody! wrote: »

As far as I know we don't have postcodes at the min.
But I think the gov. are going to introduce it some time soon. That's what I heard anyway!

Yous don't? Feck me, how do yous dress yourselves in the morning?

garydubh · 13-09-2008 2:09pm

towel401 wrote: »

so it's just post codes for the sake of post codes? if these sat nav manufacturers want to use codes beside regular coordinates i don't mind but they shouldn't force this on the postal system.

this is the modern world, progress, urbanisation, and everyone else has a post code so we must get one too. although we don't need one. lets just get another annoying number for the sake of it. i can remember addresses easily but i usually have to look up the post codes which is a pain.

and stop going on about sat navs or "SatNavs". there are plenty of ways those things can find a house without imposing a national postcode system. do any of the things still accept coordinates anyway? i just use an ordinary handheld GPS. don't like these touch-screen based toys that baby you through your journey.

The argument that we do not need PostCodes in Ireland is your opinion which you are entitled to but I would imagine you have not had time to read into this and have not seen the body of discussion on this since 2003 and the current unanimous opinion that we do require them for all kinds of efficiency reasons - not least the arguments presented in previous posts here regarding emergency services etc.

Your argument to use coordinates I understand but there is a problem - which form do you want to use...Lat/long/WGS84/GRS80/Ire65/D d.d/D M.mm/D M S.ss/Irish Grid/ITM - take your pick just make sure when you call 999 you can remember it and the emergency services know which one you are talking about and do not end up in Timbucktoo! The handheld GPS you have will support all of the above and many more and the miminum number of characters required to define a property in Ireland will be 12 with Irish Grid or ITM. 12 is a bit too many to remember - that is why GPS Ireland, experts in GPS and Coordinate systems, when they developed PON Codes created a system that is based on ITM coordinates but converted so only 7 characters are required - believe you me there are people out there who have actually given this some deep consideration over several years rather than a quick of the cuff reaction on a one Saturday on boards.ie.

On the matter of there being plenty of ways SatNav's or GPS can find places other than using Post Codes - indeed there are - but if you investigate and already borne out here in an earlier post with respect to NZ - the method of preference in developed societies is to use Post Codes in some form. Emergency services reaction times have been noticably improved in the UK since SatNav manufacturers started supporting Post Codes. The only problem in the UK is that a Post Code in the UK can cover up to 40 houses and in the Uk the same as here few in rural areas have house numbers so it can take a long time oustide cities to find the right house. That is why PON Codes were designed to have a resolution capable of distinguishing one propery from another in most cases!!!

It is worth reading into this subject before coming to an opinion as it is not jsut about delivering mail!!!

garydubh · 13-09-2008 2:18pm

m@cc@ wrote: »

Yous don't? Feck me, how do yous dress yourselves in the morning?

We don't get dressed!.........we spend our time arguing as to whether people should be able to find us when they are trying to provide us with a service for which we have already paid. We prefer that people coming to our adresses ring us up when they are on the way so we can have a nice chat and guide them in on the phone..... we like providing the GSM providers with extra revenue and distracting drivers with phone conversations on route!!!! And there will be a cup of tea when they arrive!!!!

We do have Post Codes in the form of PON Codes www.irishpostcodes.ie

towel401 · 13-09-2008 2:22pm

There are so many rules, regulations and systems that have been brought in to this country in the name of safety and preventing hypothetical disaster scenarios in the last few years we don't need another one to add to the list.

The chances of an ambulance or something not being able to find you in an emergency are slim to none. this kind of stuff happens very rarely. if i die in the few extra nanoseconds it took them to find my house because i had no postcode. well tough ****. mobile phones these days have GPS or a-gps or some decent form of triangulation. land lines can be mapped to coordinates in a system that doesn't involve post codes.

if the problem is not having house numbers can't we just use those instead of long and annoying codes? otherwise just use my pipeline system proposal.

garydubh · 13-09-2008 2:32pm

towel401 wrote: »

if the problem is not having house numbers can't we just use those instead of long and annoying codes? otherwise just use my pipeline system proposal.

Do you have any knowledge of the logistics industry - route planning/route optimisation/fuel and fuel economies - worth investigating even you are coming up with proposals.

What pipeline proposal ???

towel401 · 13-09-2008 2:35pm

garydubh wrote: »

Do you have any knowledge of the logistics industry - route planning/route optimisation/fuel and fuel economies - worth investigating even you are coming up with proposals.

What pipeline proposal ???

yea its a thread in this forum. i'd link to it but this computer is slow and i'm lazy

garydubh · 13-09-2008 3:14pm

towel401 wrote: »

yea its a thread in this forum. i'd link to it but this computer is slow and i'm lazy

I found your Post -

towel401 wrote: »

Just reading the post code threads but I think that is such a half-measure, they won't do anything for us. What we really need is a pipeline system

Dig out a network of piplelines through the whole country (juicy places like Dublin first) about 1M diameter that goes under every house in the country to deliver all your post, online shoppings and the like in a capsule that is either pushed forward by compressors or has its own electric motors.

All new apartments would be fitted with a collection room that only one person can enter at a time for privacy reasons. In the start they can do some deal with property developers giving new apartments exclusive access for a year or so.

Ordinary houses could have a port in the floor that you open up to take the stuff out of the capsule and then it moves on again. but really we need not worry about ordinary houses as they will be deemed obsolete in 2012 and don't have any part in the modern overpopulated world.

Addresses will be in the form of randomly generated IPv6 addresses with an additional 128-bit checksum plus two passwords. A person would have to click accept on a web-form or authorise someone to send them mail before it would get sent.

People sharing a collection room will have to use an ID card + 2 biometric checks + a 12 digit pin to enter the collection room. the hallways and elevator leading to it can only be used by one person at a time so nobody knows who has been there.

It would be great because you would never have to leave the house to get stuff again.

The roads would be nearly empty so people like me can drive on them for the craic

You will never have to deal with people when buying stuff that fits in the capsule.

The greenies would be happy with all the post & courier vans off the road. the capsules could be powered by 'green energy' although energy itself doesn't really have a colour.

Stuff from ebay and online eTailers could arrive in a matter of minutes.

You could live your whole life without having to leave your apartment if you work from home. its what everybody wants. Sure the tunnels would cost a few billion to dig but it will pay off within a few months of the system going into service.

Great idea - would be great to support anti-obesity also as if you wanted to get to hospital you would have to fit into one of your pipelines!!

Just make sure they are waterprooof against flooding - otherwise others will be floating other outrageous ideas through them also.

Would "www" then mean "worldwide wavin web" or "worldwide water web"

Wurly · 13-09-2008 3:17pm

Dudess wrote: »

I can't understand the need for post codes outside of Dublin as there just isn't the population for it, but the lack of house numbers and road names in the countryside is ridiculous. Stuff like John Murphy, Townland, Co Cork - must be a nightmare for a new postman/woman.

I know, I could never understand how the postperson could find John Murphy's house with just the town name to go on. Only in Ireland. It's class.:D

thebman · 13-09-2008 3:58pm

towel401 wrote: »

There are so many rules, regulations and systems that have been brought in to this country in the name of safety and preventing hypothetical disaster scenarios in the last few years we don't need another one to add to the list.

The chances of an ambulance or something not being able to find you in an emergency are slim to none. this kind of stuff happens very rarely. if i die in the few extra nanoseconds it took them to find my house because i had no postcode. well tough ****. mobile phones these days have GPS or a-gps or some decent form of triangulation. land lines can be mapped to coordinates in a system that doesn't involve post codes.

I'll refer you to my post about people preferring others die than they having to remember a few digits when posting letters or using SatNavs opinions as being irrelevant. If we can introduce this system, it adds fook all hassle and saves lives and makes everyone getting anywhere easier, why not introduce it? Especially when almost every other country already has one.

Your mobile phone idea breaches privacy laws AFAIK. Would you like to remove them for your system? I prefer the post code system where people can retain their privacy and not have a system that can be used to pinpoint peoples exact location without their permission. At least with the postcode system you have to tell someone your postcode for them to know your location.

if the problem is not having house numbers can't we just use those instead of long and annoying codes? otherwise just use my pipeline system proposal.

The point isn't just house numbers but a system that does not require manual maintenance that automatically covers new housing estates and business parks or rural areas with points of interests like forest car parks etc...

Instead of entering the full address, simply enter the code and get brought to the location on a Satnav device. Works for tourists, citizens, postal service, emergency services and any other service that requires delivery.

I can't honestly see what you wouldn't want this system in place

towel401 · 13-09-2008 5:39pm

brim4brim wrote: »

I'll refer you to my post about people preferring others die than they having to remember a few digits when posting letters or using SatNavs opinions as being irrelevant. If we can introduce this system, it adds fook all hassle and saves lives and makes everyone getting anywhere easier, why not introduce it? Especially when almost every other country already has one.

Your mobile phone idea breaches privacy laws AFAIK. Would you like to remove them for your system? I prefer the post code system where people can retain their privacy and not have a system that can be used to pinpoint peoples exact location without their permission. At least with the postcode system you have to tell someone your postcode for them to know your location.

The point isn't just house numbers but a system that does not require manual maintenance that automatically covers new housing estates and business parks or rural areas with points of interests like forest car parks etc...

Instead of entering the full address, simply enter the code and get brought to the location on a Satnav device. Works for tourists, citizens, postal service, emergency services and any other service that requires delivery.

I can't honestly see what you wouldn't want this system in place

So before we rush into this and annoy everyone with extra gobledegook on their address how many people die each year due to the lack of postal codes?

Emergency services can already track phones quite easily, there are no privacy laws involved once you call those guys they start trying to find where you are and it doesn't take long.

you can revamp the national grid system to make it more user friendly for finding points of interest or just use something like UTM which is the same everywhere if coordinates are too finnicky for you. but don't make it a part of everyone's postal address.

i wouldn't even mind an optional postcode. you ask for a post code and they give you one or else you stick to using the ordinary address system that has worked for 100s of years.

postal codes were invented to make it easier for machines to read. now the machines have no problem with ordinary addresses. ireland is almost the only country left that hasn't bought into this nonsense, thats something to be proud of really

Peteee · 13-09-2008 5:54pm

towel401 wrote: »

ireland is almost the only country left that hasn't bought into this nonsense, thats something to be proud of really

If your the only one left not doing something, its usually a sign that you should be doing it!

I'd support postcodes, if only for filling out online forms!

garydubh · 13-09-2008 5:56pm

towel401 wrote: »

Emergency services can already track phones quite easily, there are no privacy laws involved once you call those guys they start trying to find where you are and it doesn't take long.

you can revamp the national grid system to make it more user friendly for finding points of interest or just use something like UTM which is the same everywhere if coordinates are too finnicky for you. but don't make it a part of everyone's postal address.

Difficult to catch whether to take you seriously or not after the Pipeline diversion!!!

Tracking Phones - Cell ID is the technology - 50 meters approx in urban areas - hundreds of meters in rural areas - not really a success!! When ordering on line you would have to run home and call them on your mobile and have the goods delivered to your neignbours if you are in an urban area and to the sheep if beyond.

As for changing to UTM - we already have changed to ITM and it works very well!!! There are two UTM zones in Ireland - not very practical!

As for addresses having done us for 100 years - we did not have the convenience of Pizza delivery 100 years ago and the desire to deliver when it is still hot!!! Furthermore the convenience of mobile doctor services is also now with us and to quote them - "no problem asking someone directions during the day in country areas - this is not practical at 3 in the morning and neither is knocking on peoples doors to try and find the right place" People are very concerned about security these days and knocking on doors for directions in the early hours of the morning could result in being faced with the barrell of a shotgun...

There are no justifieable reasons not to have a Post Code system in Ireland - there are many practical benefits. Normal addressing would still be used as is the case in all other places with Post Codes including Northern Ireland - so no fear we will lose our current addressing system and our historic place names

towel401 · 13-09-2008 6:09pm

garydubh wrote: »

Difficult to catch whether to take you seriously or not after the Pipeline diversion!!!

Tracking Phones - Cell ID is the technology - 50 meters approx in urban areas - hundreds of meters in rural areas - not really a success!! When ordering on line you would have to run home and call them on your mobile and have the goods delivered to your neignbours if you are in an urban area and to the sheep if beyond.

AGPS could improve that even more. a Thuraya satellite phone i had a while back would send its gps coordinates to the base in the UAE each time it made a call. they used this to find some poor bastard stuck on K2 a while back without him having to tell them the post code of where he was stuck.

As for changing to UTM - we already have changed to ITM and it works very well!!! There are two UTM zones in Ireland - not very practical!

then use that. don't make it part of the address

As for addresses having done us for 100 years - we did not have the convenience of Pizza delivery 100 years ago and the desire to deliver when it is still hot!!! Furthermore the convenience of mobile doctor services is also now with us and to quote them - "no problem asking someone directions during the day in country areas - this is not practical at 3 in the morning and neither is knocking on peoples doors to try and find the right place" People are very concerned about security these days and knocking on doors for directions in the early hours of the morning could result in being faced with the barrell of a shotgun...

There are no justifieable reasons not to have a Post Code system in Ireland - there are many practical benefits. Normal addressing would still be used as is the case in all other places with Post Codes including Northern Ireland - so no fear we will lose our current addressing system and our historic place names

well that's a bigger problem. people are obsessed with convenience to the point that it is ruining their lives. one of the reasons i don't like this postal code system is that it will facilitate this kind of paranoid urbanite yuppie lifestyle. that's why i thought of the pipeline, it allows you to live your whole life in a single room and doing everything electronically which is apparently what people want.

i'm not going to tell people how they should live their lives so i have nothing against pizza-ordering urbanites to get their own post code and maybe a password on their address so they can easily block mail from people they are trying to avoid or ignore without confrontation. like a real-life facebook

Irish Post Codes

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