Abortion

Thaedydal

Thaedydal wrote: »

Actually your wrong there.

There are many people who are pro choice who do think it ends a life or a potential life and would never personally have an abortion on those grounds but are compassionate and understand that others do not agree and respect their right to choose for themselves and the number of those who are that way are growing.

Compassionate isn't a term I would use to describe a person who believes a human life is being taken, but choses to ignore it.

litup

SetantaL wrote: »

What about what SHE wants?

That's the point here- you're applying YOUR opinions onto other people. Let them make up their own minds and you make up yours.

In fairness to NTL, the question Quality asked is would you want your young daughter to have an abortion.

litup

LolaDub wrote: »

Sorry Thaed you might not agree with it but its different to me being wrong. I said generally i wasn't saying everyone does this for these reasons. My meaning was generally when pro choice are considering an abortion they do not judge the foetus as a baby therefore they probably don't feel they are hurting a baby. I think a main difference in the debate is how people judge when life begins, ie at point of conception or at 12 weeks, 28 weeks, birth etc

You are wrong. Many people who would be 'pro-choice' would never consider an abortion themselves and may view the foetus as a baby at the time of a termination. They do, however, understand that this may not be other people's views and it is up to them to make the decision. Hence the term 'pro-choice'.

misslt

I was always anti abortion, very strongly against it - until I started having sex. The idea terrifies me, and I would hate to do it, but if I found myself pregnant now I think I'd consider it. It makes me feel selfish, but there you go.

It really is up to each individual woman and the circumstances she is in. No-one can judge anyone else unless they've been in the exact situation with the exact same circumstances.

We really do, in this country, have our head in the sand - unwanted pregnancies are more and more common and yet there are no 'safe' ways to deal with it.

Also, OT - Aisling, you've a smart head on young shoulders there!

cornbb

litup wrote: »

You are wrong. Many people who would be 'pro-choice' would never consider an abortion themselves and may view the foetus as a baby at the time of a termination. They do, however, understand that this may not be other people's views and it is up to them to make the decision. Hence the term 'pro-choice'.

That's exactly how I've come to see it. Its not so much about the choice whether to have an abortion, its about deciding for yourself about what does/doesn't constitute a life.

Dudess

I don't think the term "pro-choice" is applicable to those who'd also have an abortion themselves - I think those people (I'm one of them) are "pro-abortion" but people seem to be afraid of that term so they use "pro-choice" to apply to anyone who isn't pro-life.

I appreciate though that there are some people who would not have an abortion but would be in favour of others having the option to do so.

I'm in favour of abortion, but with a lot of limitations. It should be a last resort (which it no doubt usually is) and definitely no later than 12 weeks.

It's ludicrous to suggest that a woman who makes a mistake (with the help of a man) should be forced to give birth and bring up this child.

JC 2K3

I believe the guilt women feel when they have abortions is entirely culturally and societally derived.

If certain individuals stopped looking down upon and speaking out against abortion, and others stopped going on about how it is such a hard, traumatic time for the mother and that she will naturally grieve for her "loss", then there'd be no issue.

I don't believe a fetus is a person until it is born. I don't believe it's a question of viability, aesthetics, brain development or anything like that, because IMO personhood is a philosophical attribute that we, as a society, give to individuals, rather than it being an inherent attribute of any singular entity with human DNA.

I don't see any possible negative consequences to the position that a fetus becomes a person when it is born.

fonpokno

Personally, if I found out I was pregnant, I would be on the next plane to England. At 19 years old, I'd be in no way mature enough nor financially able to take care of a child. I wouldn't see adoption as an option either as I couldn't carry a child for 9months only to give it up. I couldn't bring a child into an unstable uncertain situation where I wouldn't be able to give it the unconditional love s/he deserves. I think I'd actually resent the child in some way if I had a baby now - I couldn't go back to college, I couldn't have spontaneous nights out anyway, I wouldn't be able to finish growing up. I'm only a child myself still and therefore could not possibly take care of one.

I do think abortion should be legal here. I mean its ridiculous that Irish women have to travel over there for something as traumatic as an abortion. Also those people who stand on o Connell Street all the time waving around pictures of aborted babies or whatever should be shot. I'd imagine having an abortion is traumatic enough without having people incessantly guilt you over being a "murderer" wherever you go.

Also I really think the morning after pill should available over the counter. Had a bit of an accident recently and had to take it and I've neverfelt so stressed trying to find a doctor. I was blessed that my friend's father is a doctor and was able to sort me out pretty sharpish but if I hadn't had that option I'd probably be pregnant and on my way to England right about now.

It's all well and good to say the pill and a condom is foolproof but accidents still happen no matter what.

LivingDeadGirl

If I were to become pregnant now, at 17, I would have an abortion. I believe it is wrong to use abortion as a method of contraception, but accidents happen when people are careful too. I don't know if I ever want children, let alone before I finish school. The feelings of my boyfriend would be important to me, it is just as much his decision as it is mine, but I know he'd feel the same way as I do as it's something we've previously discussed. I think it is incredibly wrong that women are forced to travel to other countries if they want an abortion, it adds extra stress and expense at a very traumatic time. Hopefully it will be legalised here, I see no reason why it shouldn't be.

Tha Gopher

re everyone saying pregnancy wrecks a young persons life, i it just me or do young parents and people in their 30s who had kids young generally seem happier than single people you know in their 30s? Perhaps it isnt as hellish as you would imagine.

In theory Im opposed. Having said that I was stuck in a relationship I really didnt want to be in (wont go into detail of how exactly) and the fortnight after I broke it off was one of the most nervous times of my life (I knew from previous that she was due within about 10 days of the break off, so I was dying for that time to pass and to hopefully not hear any news). Losing sleep over the possiblity of pregnancy with someone I didnt want to interact with anymore, or the thought of her either faking it or trying it with anyone to keep me, nervous times.

I usppose if it had happened maybe Id have a different view.

ChickCool

litup wrote: »

You are wrong. Many people who would be 'pro-choice' would never consider an abortion themselves and may view the foetus as a baby at the time of a termination. They do, however, understand that this may not be other people's views and it is up to them to make the decision. Hence the term 'pro-choice'.

is pro choice not the side thats not pro life? i thought that the debate is divided into 2sides pro life and pro choice so wouldnt people that arent pro life be considered pro choice?

im pro life btw on ntl bells side

Dudess

No, pro-choice can apply to those who wouldn't have an abortion themselves but are in favour of others having that option.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I believe the guilt women feel when they have abortions is entirely culturally and societally derived.

If certain individuals stopped looking down upon and speaking out against abortion, and others stopped going on about how it is such a hard, traumatic time for the mother and that she will naturally grieve for her "loss", then there'd be no issue.

I don't believe a fetus is a person until it is born. I don't believe it's a question of viability, aesthetics, brain development or anything like that, because IMO personhood is a philosophical attribute that we, as a society, give to individuals, rather than it being an inherent attribute of any singular entity with human DNA.

I don't see any possible negative consequences to the position that a fetus becomes a person when it is born.

NOTE - The following is upsetting:
I read a letter by a doctor to The Irish Times (seemingly with no agenda - he wasn't writing on behalf of Youth Defence or some other nut jobs) in which he outlined his experience as a medical student in the UK. Abortion was just a medical procedure to him until one particular case to which he was witness. This was a very, very late termination - I can't remember the exact time frame but it was around the 25-week mark. And he said it haunted him because the baby was still alive and was wriggling and he said it looked just like a miscarried baby or a premature one. His view changed from that moment on.

I certainly didn't type that to make people feel bad and I am in favour of abortion early on - I've had the one-night stand scares a lot of women have had and there is no way I'd be prepared to go through with pregnancy under such circumstances. But that letter had quite an effect on me and it made me become of the view that life does not begin at conception, but it does begin before birth.

Tha Gopher wrote: »

re everyone saying pregnancy wrecks a young persons life, i it just me or do young parents and people in their 30s who had kids young generally seem happier than single people you know in their 30s? Perhaps it isnt as hellish as you would imagine.

Well I know three people in their 20s who had kids at 19, 20 and 23 and while they're making the best of it and adore their kids, being honest, they'd prefer to have left it until later. But they're just three people. I don't know if there's a general trend...

The Sweeper

Dudess wrote: »

I read a letter by a doctor to The Irish Times (seemingly with no agenda - he wasn't writing on behalf of Youth Defence or some other nut jobs) in which he outlined his experience as a medical student in the UK. Abortion was just a medical procedure to him until one particular case to which he was witness. This was a very, very late termination - I can't remember the exact time frame but it was around the 25-week mark. And he said it haunted him because the baby was still alive and was wriggling and he said it looked just like a miscarried baby or a premature one. His view changed from that moment on.

That's very similar to a story published in the Daily Telegraph in the UK, who printed claims by Conservative MP Nadine Dorries that, as a young nurse, she assisted a doctor in conducting late-stage abortions. There is a claim that there are 3,000 late-stage abortions in the UK every year - that's an abortion over 20 weeks. There is another claim that only 25% of those abortions conform to the requirements for eugenic abortion - that is abortion due to severe abnormality of the foetus.

The other 75% of late-stage abortion are carried out for what they call "lifestyle" reasons.

That worries me, because when people hear "lifestyle reasons", they envisage some twenty-something year old ice queen, sleeping around like a bitch on heat and using no protection, who has an abortion because she'd rather spend money on hair extensions and getting her nails done.

Why, oh why would anyone have a late stage abortion as a lifestyle choice? It's a far different procedure to the dilation and evacuation procedure, which in itself is performed regularly in hospitals as a routine procedure for women who aren't pregnant (the cervix is dilated, the lining of the womb is scraped and it's then "hoovered" out).

So what could be a "lifestyle" reason? Perhaps it's a young woman whose partner, after originally supporting her, has walked out on her, leaving her in a state of impoverished depression and she feels she has nobody to go to and simply can't do it alone.

Perhaps it's a young girl too terrified to tell her family so she hides her pregnancy in a state of denial until she literally can't hide it any more.

Perhaps it's a woman who, for cultural or religious reason, is forced by family pressure and a sense of shame into a late stage abortion.

It's too easy to think "A woman has a 'lifestyle' late stage abortion because she's a heartless bitch". It's far more worrying to consider what the hell would make someone put herself through that.

b3t4

Have you ever had an abortion?
No

Do you know anyone who has?
Yes.

If you became pregnant tommorow would abortion be an option for you?
In my current relationship and in my present circumstances a pregnancy would be a pleasant addition to my life therefore I would not concider abortion at this time.

Previous to my current circumstances, had I of gotten pregnant, I would of seriously concidered abortion but only if I was under 12weeks. I choose 12weeks as my cut off point as that is the stage of a pregnancy that a woman is most likely to miscarry naturally. In relation to adoption, I would only concider if the 12 weeks had passed. The thing I don't like about adoption as an option is that it would force me to indure pregnancy/birth. The effects both would have on my body is something I'd find very hard to come to terms with if I was in a position where I did not want the baby.

Banding on about this and that and the other does not mean that people are not going to choose abortion. Abortion has been happening for thousands of years now. http://www.hopeclinic.com/AbortionHistory.htm

I'd prefer if the Irish society would support, help and provide safe environments for vunerable people making decisions that effect the rest of their lifes, rather than sending them on a ship for someone else to deal with.

A.

ballroom blitz

As a scientist I believe that aborting a foetus at 0-18 weeks is aceptable if you consider that many women conceive and lose a foetus during that time naturally (1:3 women). 1 in 3 pregnancies results in a miscarriage during the first trimester (0-12 weeks). So a lot of women who choose to prevent the further progression of their pregnancy are not reacting against nature as suggested.

From my own personal experience I am currently in my mid twenties and 7 years ago I would have decided on an abortion. This was due to my desire to complete my education to allow me to earn the money i felt was necessary to raise a child.

Fast forward to now and I'm still with the same guy (I'm 99.999999999% sure this is the guy for me) and I would still head off "on the boat" as they say because we both aren't ready yet to raise a family.

This could show that I haven't matured in the 7 years I've been with my OH or it could prove our dedication to one another (i'll let you guys decide what you like).

I know that some day we will have children together but I refuse to be bullied into thinking that because we take precautions that are not 100% (ie pill and condom) we should be forced to be parents before we are ready.

I have been with him for 7 years in the hope that some day we will find ourselves in the position to raise children. But as a "pro-choice" person i find that being forced to keep a child just because my options are much better now that they used to be is rather tiresome. it is a very private decision involving the parents of the child and who are we to judge.
Each to their own is always my moto.

Agent Smith

I'm Pro Life, I Cant honnestly Ever see myself Changing my position on it.

I agree that more Sex Ed Should be thought, However i dont believe the Morning after pill should be available over the counter as It would be abused to an extent.

I dont agree with removing the right to travel. However i would like to see the Father of the child Have Some Legal rights.

castie

Agent Smith wrote: »

However i would like to see the Father of the child Have Some Legal rights.

How could this even be enforced?
Pregnancy could be easily hidden and aborted without knowledge to alot of people. Without even visiting a Doctor here once.

Agent Smith

I ment for fathers Of Born Children.

castie

Agent Smith wrote: »

I ment for fathers Of Born Children.

Oh sorry i misunderstood.

The_Minister

Thaedydal wrote: »

For most of the history of the christian/catholic church abortion up to certain stages were considered permissible it was only in 1886 that pope Leo XIII
issued a decree stating that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman's life.
The tolerant approach to abortion which had prevailed in the Roman Catholic Church for previous centuries ended.
The church required excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy. This position has continued to the present time.

It was generally allowed up to the Quickening.
God help you if you had one after though.

tallaght01

The old abortion argument is one of the most draining arguments that a group of people can have.

I've given it so much thought over the years, and I still have never been able to come down on one side of the fence about the whole issue.

I've been present during abortions. I hated every second of my time there. I availed of my right to refuse to assist, though. I couldn't get past the idea that someone in the room was being killed.

I would never want my wife/girlfriend to have an abortion (unless it was for good medical reasons). In fact, if she did, it would definitely spell the end of our relationship.

I work in a hospital. They occasionally have babies born at 23 weeks there. There's often 24 weekers. So the thought of late abortions makes me very uneasy.

But then there's the flipside. You see the catastrophe caused by an unwanted pregnancy. You see how badly the child can be brought up. You know inside that everyone should be allowed to make a mistake.

People aregue about calling abortion "murder" or "killing" or whatever. One part of me thinks "well, I've seen them performed, and that's exactly what they are", whereas the other part of me has seen women who struggle for many many years to come to terms with that decision they've made. They shouldn't have to carry the label of "murderer" with them for the rest of their lives.

People who work in clinics talk about the amount of "lifestyle" choice abortions being carried out. I sometimes think these are over reported. There's a cohort of girls who are so insecure that they find it very difficult to take control of their own contraception as that requires a degree of assertiveness. They get pregnant, and they decide they want an abortion. So they go ot clinic, and are so convinced they'll get a hard time, that they just tell u what they want as quicly and as matter-of-factly as they want in order to get out of there without an argument.

But you could always see it in their eyes that they were deeply troubled.

I posted about this before on a recent abortion thread....

tallaght01 wrote: »

Sure, there's lots of stories about girls going into their doc, and getting chalked down for an abortion, with apparent indifference.

But, when I spent some time working in GP land I used to see these girls. They were typically about 18-23. They would walk in the door and sit down. I'd say "how can I help you?", and they'd just say "I want an abortion". If I said nothing else, and just put their name on a list then they'd be happier. Of course, I would ask some basic medical questions, to which I always got one word answers. Then I would ask if they'd like to have a chat about it....."No", was always the answer. Would they like to talk to someone else, perhaps one of the lady docs, or our practise nurse? "No".

One word answers, and a very distant attitude. It makes a lot of people think they don't care. It makes it all sound very easy. But they do care, and it's not easy.

They just don't want to talk about it in a lot of cases. They're often ashamed, scared or angry. Like teenagers with attitude, they often look like they don't care about anything. And, also like teenagers with attitude, they can be feeling a world of hurt and confusion that it's difficult for them to explain, and it's difficult for us to empathise with.

So, invariably, they toddle off home. They've got their termination booked. They've refused professional care, so they never learn to take control of their sexuality. They refuse a follow-up with the practise nurse for contraception advice, so they don't learn why they get pregnant in the first place. They don't tell family about what they're going through, so their self esteem diminishes.

No-one needs me to tell them that women with low self esteem/depression don't find it easy to take control over things like regular contraception, and they find it difficult to be assertive about their sexuality.

So the cycles continues, a year later, at their GP with one word answers, another abortion, and refusing all help.

I had a lot of sleepless nights over these poor girls.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's probably not helpful to be so entrenched in our own ideals. Some people will regard abortion as always being the wrong choice. I can see where they're coming from. It would always be the wrong choice for me.

But it's never as simple as that. I don't know what the answer is, though.

I do know though, that the government should get their heads out of their arses and start providing some kind of aftercare to women who do make this difficult choice.

PS on the issue of nomenclature. I think I'm "pro-choice". I think a lot of people who call themelves pro-choice are "pro-abortion".

LolaLuv

tallaght01 wrote: »

PS on the issue of nomenclature. I think I'm "pro-choice". I think a lot of people who call themelves pro-choice are "pro-abortion".

I doubt it's a lot of people. I think most people who are pro-choice are pro-choice. I know many people who are personally against abortion but believe in the sanctity of every woman's right to choose. I don't know a single person who goes around extolling the merits of abortion as a primary method of birth control, which is what "pro-abortion" seems to imply, and I know some pretty radical feminists.

tallaght01

PillyPen wrote: »

I doubt it's a lot of people. I think most people who are pro-choice are pro-choice. I know many people who are personally against abortion but believe in the sanctity of every woman's right to choose. I don't know a single person who goes around extolling the merits of abortion as a primary method of birth control, which is what "pro-abortion" seems to imply, and I know some pretty radical feminists.

I guess "a lot" is subjective term. I don't think "pro abortion" means someone promotes abortion as primary birth control. I think it probably means they are strongly in favour of easily available abortions. That definitely won't be a water-tight definition, though.

hussey

Moonbaby wrote: »

Nobody has the right to judge people, or dictate a course of action so long as they are not intentionally causeing harm to others.
That isn't the case with abortion as far as I am concerned.

irishbird wrote: »

but that the same with abortion

anywoo, if found myself in the family way, i would be off to england in the blink of eye, i wouldnt even think twice about it

but thats my decision, and no one has the right to tell me i am wrong

What about the fathers right in this? Do they have a right to say whether your decision is right/wrong?

Jules

Yes they have a right to voice an opinion, but and a very big but, it is not their bodies that have to go through it. So at the end of the day, it is the womans choice. Like it or not!

Gillo

hussey wrote: »

What about the fathers right in this? Do they have a right to say whether your decision is right/wrong?

They have a right to say their opinion, but (speaking as a guy) women very much carry the can with regards to pregnancy and child rearing so at the end of the day it's their decision. Also consider the fact the the majority of abortion's (apart from the one done on medical grounds) will generally be single women or women fairly recently in a relationship, I may be wrong on this but I'd be surprised if I am.

PurpleFistMixer

I've always jokingly been of the opinion that, "sure there's too many people in the world as it is", and IMO, as long as the child/baby/foetus/whatever can't survive outside the mother, what happens to it is up to her. Which would class me as pro-abortion, etc. It depends a lot on the context though. Getting an abortion as a form of contraception (ie, "ah forget the condom, if I do get preggers I'll get an abortion") is foolish, but there are always accidents and mistakes.

That said, I've thought about it, and getting an abortion would certainly not be an easy choice to make. The thought of terminating the child/baby/foetus/whatever that's the blood of my boyfriend's is a difficult one. It's easy to say "ah terminate the child, it's a burden", but there would be strong emotional links, even if it is, imo, technically not a separate individual being yet. Particularly because of the chance that, maybe this is the only child I may ever be able to conceive, for whatever reason, and all that jazz.

Ultimately though I think it's a philosophical/spiritual one. Now, I'm not really particularly religious, but I believe in a form of reincarnation, so the child/baby/yoke is not really killed, it just doesn't live out a life in that body. So to me, the only drawbacks to abortion are the emotional/physical impact on the potential parents.

Dudess

PillyPen wrote: »

I doubt it's a lot of people. I think most people who are pro-choice are pro-choice. I know many people who are personally against abortion but believe in the sanctity of every woman's right to choose. I don't know a single person who goes around extolling the merits of abortion as a primary method of birth control, which is what "pro-abortion" seems to imply, and I know some pretty radical feminists.

I'd disagree Pilly. I'm not in favour of abortion as a form of birth control at all, and I feel it should only be a last resort in the most desperate of circumstances and very early on, but I feel that still makes me "pro abortion".

Dudess

panda100 wrote: »

Thought it would be an intresting topic to discuss away from the 'what shoulder should I wear my bag on' type threads.

LOL

Have you ever had an abortion?

No.

Do you know anyone who has?

Yes. And it ****ed her up majorly. She got pregnant exactly a year after it and says she was allergic to her pill. I've always found myself wondering was this deliberate in order to compensate. A year earlier, having a baby was just not an option for her. She was terrified. The idea of telling her parents made her sick. And she was in a relationship. The following year - only barely 19 at this stage - she was fine about it, fine about telling the folks, and she wasn't in a serious relationship. She was seeing a guy but it wasn't anything major.
The guilt made her a mess - I believe the guilt was hugely socially and culturally derived, as JC 2K3 suggests, but I believe a small part of it came from biology too. But it was so early on - six weeks I think - that not much bonding could have occurred.

If you became pregnant tommorow would abortion be an option for you?

An iffy one. I'm 30 years of age, but the relationship I'm in is a bit of complicated one. I don't know whether it would be conducive to raising a child. If I was single and pregnant as a result of a one-night stand, definitely.

I think its wrong that women have to travel overseas in a vunerable state and fork out substantial amounts of cash for a procedure that cant be pleasant. Irish women at the moment are not getting the medical or psyhcological aftercare they need.

It's crazy in this day and age - absolutely crazy.

Nevyn

We are blessed that in the last century that we have the contraceptive choices that we have ( if not for the nazi and their experiments in the camps other wise we would not have the oral contraceptive pill ), the the millenia before that the contraceptive choices women had were not to have sex, of if they were smart enough and had a regular cycle ( which most women didn't have due to diet ) they counted the calenders as the roman women did
or they would induce miscarriages at an early stage with infusions of certain herbs or if later on would go see someone usually the midwife to have something done.

Women as ever did it for a variety of reasons from having to many children to not being a position to raise and provide for a child, from an unsupportive spouse/partner ect
and y know for the most part the reasons have not changed.

What has changed is that at least western women due to diet are more fertile for a lot longer of their lives, there are more reliable contraceptive methods, there is the information about how the menstrual cycle works out there for people to inform themsevles and men now feel that they should have a say.

There was a time were men were not told at all about pregnancy and periods were hidden from them so they never knew unless their partner told them.

But women went from the roman ladies knowing how their body work and checking the calender to having their knowledge about their body stripped from them in the dark ages
with the catholic church fearing that the Lutherans would take over made it a womans duty to have with in marriage as many children as 'God' gave her and it wasn't until the this century when the likes of Margaret Higgins Sanger in 1916 published what was considered medical knowledge about mensuration that things started to change again.

The fact that the knowledge of the menstrual cycle meant natural family planning could happen meant it was considered contraceptive knowledge and she was jailed for distributing such information. Two years later in 1918 contraception was made legal due to some of her efforts in america.

We in this country had a long way to go.

1974
The IFPA was able to import condoms, diaphragms and creams and distribute them by donation at the clinics. Mary Robinson's second Contraceptive Bill was defeated by 32 votes to 10 in March. In March, the Coalition Government introduced its own Bill. The IFPA was charged under the 1935 Criminal Law (Amendment) Act with the promotion of unnatural methods of contraception in its booklet. The case was dismissed. In July, a Bill introduced by the Coalition Government was defeated with the Taoiseach and six Fine Gael deputies voting against the Bill. A new clinic was opened at 59 Synge Street, Dublin 8. The first vasectomy operation was performed at the Synge Street clinic.

1976
The IFPA booklet Family Planning was banned by the Censorship Board.

1979
The Family Planning (Health Act) becomes law. Contraceptives of all types may be sold only by pharmacists on presentation of a prescription and were for married people only.

1985
Under strong attack from the Roman Catholic Hierarchy, Fianna Fail and conservative lobby groups, Barry Desmond introduced the (Health) Family Planning Amendment Bill. The Bill, to make contraceptives available to those over the age of 18 years without a doctor's prescription, was narrowly passed.

So ladies and gents be happy we have contraception to the level we do in this country,
shame we don't have the eduction process that is needed because both are needed to prevent the levels of crises pregnancy and women having abortions and that eduction for both men and women.

Hearing people talk about the abortion holocaust makes me laugh the only difference nowadays is that we have records in country's that allow abortion and chances are the woman won't die and will go on to have children, but abortion has been around as along as there have been unwanted pregnancy's, and sadly I can't see that changing esp here where we do not educate teen and young people to any standard about sex, reproduction and contraception.