Abortion

panda100

Thought it would be an intresting topic to discuss away from the 'what shoulder should I wear my bag on' type threads.

Have you ever had an abortion? Do you know anyone who has?
If you became pregnant tommorow would abortion be an option for you?

Around 6000 Irish women travel to the UK each year to get an abortion,however its not something that women really talk about or discuss. I think Irish society and in particularly the goverment have their heads in the sand when It comes to this issue.


Me,I would consider myself pro-life. I think women are forced into having abortions mainly for economic reasons. However,I think its wrong that women have to travel overseas in a vunerable state and fork out substantial amounts of cash for a procedure that cant be pleasant. Irish women at the moment are not getting the medical or psyhcological aftercare they need. So while I think abortion is fundamentaly wrong I think If there was a referendum on it tommorow I would probably vote to legalise abortion beacuse I would rather women have their abortions here then travelling overseas. What are the boardies thoughts?

Nevyn

ok seriously I can't see this thread lasting long here before it gets locked after turning into a flame fest or moved to humanities.

I would like to think that it is possible for it to be a good civil discussion but we will see.

So panda100 you are personally against abortion for yourself but are pro choice due to respecting other womens choices about abortion and think the current system is hypocritically ? Cos the IFPA agrees with you and so may the EU courts.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/europe-to-challenge--abortion-laws-here-1442788.html

Europe to challenge abortion laws here

By Michael Lavery

Tuesday July 29 2008

IRELAND's abortion veto is to be challenged in the European Court of Human Rights.

The Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA) has confirmed that a case -- which it is supporting -- challenging the current status quo has been accepted for consideration by the Court.

The case, involving three women living in Ireland who travelled abroad for abortion services, was lodged in August 2005 with the Court.

The case centres around four Articles of the European Convention on Human Rights.

These include Article 8 with regard to the right of privacy in all family, home and personal interests, and entitlement to no public interference from any public authority in exercising this right; Article 3, which protects individuals from 'inhuman or degrading treatment'; Article 2, which affords protection of the law to safeguard the life of an individual, and Article 14 which affords rights and freedoms without discrimination on any grounds.

The case is being supported by the IFPA, which is offering legal and research support to the three complainants.

The IFPA said it was "pleased" that the case was now progressing.

It said it understood that the Government has been invited to respond to the complaints lodged by each of the three women before the end of September.

Once the Government has submitted its response, the IFPA -- together with the three women and their legal team -- will be invited to consider and comment on what has been presented.

The IFPA said it considered the grounds on which the three women are taking the case to be "very strong."

Hopeful

The organisation said it was hopeful that the Court will issue a positive recommendation in favour of the three women.

"This will bring pressure to bear on the Government to reform Irish abortion laws," according to the IFPA.

The number of women giving Irish addresses at abortion clinics in the UK has fallen for the seventh year in a row.

Figures from the British government show fewer woman travelling from Ireland to the UK for abortions.

They show 4,686 Irish women travelled to Britain for abortions in 2007, down from 5,042 for the previous year.

Analysts say Irish women seeking abortions may now be travelling to Holland for terminations, rather than the UK.

Also abortion may be available in the north of Ireland for it is the only part of the UK where it is not.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/move-to-allow-abortion-in-northern-ireland-875137.html

Move to allow abortion in Northern Ireland

By Ben Padley, PA
Wednesday, 23 July 2008

MPs are to stage a fresh attempt to make it easier for women in Northern Ireland to have an abortion.

The cross-party group of MPs will attempt to force a vote in the House of Commons by tabling an amendment to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill in the autumn.

The amendment to the Bill, which is passing through Parliament, would allow women to have an abortion on the NHS in Northern Ireland, a right they do not have now.

Labour's Diane Abbott said a woman can have an abortion in Northern Ireland only if it can be shown there was evidence of a threat to her life. This was "very strictly defined", she said.

It means that every year more than 1,000 women have to pay to have the procedure carried out privately in mainland Britain, usually England.

She believed there was a "very good chance" of it being passed by MPs.

But the proposal would face stiff opposition from Northern Ireland MPs, the majority of whom are against such a change.

There have previously been suggestions that MPs from the Democratic Unionist Party were assured the abortion laws would not be changed.

This was in return for them supporting the Government over the extension of detention without charge for terror suspects to 42 days.

The charge has always been strongly denied by the Government, which insists no deals were made.

Ms Abbott, MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When it comes to abortion rights, Northern Ireland women are effectively second-class citizens.

"They don't have the same rights as women in England and Wales and Scotland. They even have fewer rights than women in the Republic of Ireland.

"The main way if you want to have an abortion, you have to travel to the UK and get one privately."

Asked if MPs should vote to change the law when the majority of Northern Ireland MPs were against it, she said: "This is a matter decided by the British Parliament.

"I think it is not unreasonable that the British Parliament should say that all citizens in the British Isles should have the same rights.

"The effect of the amendment would be to give women in Northern Ireland exactly the same rights to abortion with NHS funding that women elsewhere in Britain have.

"We think we have got a very good chance of getting the amendment through.

"There is a very clear majority in Parliament for a woman's right to choose and we believe there is a majority to extend that to Northern Ireland."

The facts are that we do have post the referenda and the challenges to it limited legal abortion in certain circumstances for medical reasons but even in those cases women have to travel out side of the country.

http://www.safeandlegalinireland.ie

Karen_*

Well I'm pro-choice. I do think though that there should be abortion here because it is a horrible traumatic procedure and I think the woman suffers enough without having travel and costs and a waiting list thrown into the equation.

Jules

Personally abortion is not for me but i would never, in a million years, vote against it. Who am i to take away a person right of choice. And yes people will harp on about the babies right and choices but the mother should be the person that comes first.




And yes i will be watching this thread carefully, i really hope there can be proper discussion.

Rabies

I'm for abortion is both people really want it.
Nothing worse than an unwanted child been brought up in this world.

WindSock

I haven't had an abortion myself, but had I gotten pregnant younger I would have seriously considered hopping on a boat. If I were to fall pregnant now I probably would decide to have the thing but I am a fierce supporter of having the choice over here in this dump. Then again if they ever pass it then I will have less to complain about

Aisling(",)

I'm pro choice.I hate the idea of a child being brought up un wanted because of someone being un prepared on a night of passion or an accident.

if i found out i was pregnant now and i had the option id get rid of it because of my age and being un able to support it etc.

ntlbell

Jules wrote: »

And yes people will harp on about the babies right and choices but the mother should be the person that comes first.

Of course people will "harp" on about the babies right's.

Mother makes mistake; baby pays the price by being murdered?
if there is no risk to the mothers health etc why should her choice come first?

ntlbell

Aisling(",) wrote: »

I'm pro choice.I hate the idea of a child being brought up un wanted because of someone being un prepared on a night of passion or an accident.

There's always adoption.

Glowing

There probably wouldn't be so many travelling over to the UK if we actually had a decent Sex-ed program, and access to the the morning after pill over the counter.

WindSock

ntlbell wrote: »

if there is no risk to the mothers health etc why should her choice come first?

Because it's hers? No matter what you say or do, she ultimately has the ability to get rid of a foetus, even if it means making a trip to the knitting needle shop.

Aisling(",)

ntlbell wrote: »

There's always adoption.

yes but in my case the 9 months would mean id miss a lot of school and i .dont think at this age i could handle having a child and giving it away but i know i could take a termination

Mr. Incognito

I can see this getting nasty.

I'm pro-choice. If you think abortion is wrong- you don't have to partake of it. This is one of the few areas that people think it's okay to force thier opinions onto everyone else. Legalise it and let people make up their own minds, and for the record I feel the same about legalising drugs, euthenasia, gay marraige etc.

A lot of these things are personl choices and I think people should be given the right to choice. If you don't like that choice, well that's well and good. You make your own choices in life.

I've had two ex's that went for abortions (not mine) for one it was the right decision for the other it wasn't. The follow up support in Ireland is a disgrace-this ostrich buried heads in the sand approach must change.

I also have a son from a one night stand- and that was her choice which I supported.

People's choices are just that. Let them choose and don't be bludgeoning people with your own values.

ntlbell

WindSock wrote: »

Because it's hers? No matter what you say or do, she ultimately has the ability to get rid of a foetus, even if it means making a trip to the knitting needle shop.

Because what's hers? the baby?

Should I be allowed to kill my kids cause their mine?

What's stopping me from taken them to the knitting needle shop and killing them now?

being committed for murder...and rightly so..

ntlbell

Aisling(",) wrote: »

yes but in my case the 9 months would mean id miss a lot of school and i .dont think at this age i could handle having a child and giving it away but i know i could take a termination

then don't have unprotected sex i guess?

It's not rocket science..

Nevyn

We are seeing a rise in back street abortions esp now that we have women who have or are seeking refuge status in this country and can not legally leave to get an abortion and there are women also can not afford the extra cost that traveling means.

http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=6088

Backstreet abortions probed


By Deborah Condon

Gardai have begun an investigation into two illegal backstreet abortions, which were carried out in Dublin city within the last few months.

In the first case, a Romanian woman is said to have paid €500 to a Moldovan woman, to carry out an abortion at an apartment in Dublin city. Gardai were alerted to this by the Romanian woman's partner, who complained that she had undergone this procedure without his knowledge or consent.

He provided Gardai with an address where he claimed the abortion had taken place. A subsequent search of this premises led to the discovery of a suction pump and chemicals that are used to anaesthetise patients.

It is understood that the Romanian woman came into contact with the Moldovan woman after spotting an advertisement for 'gynaecological services' on a notice board in a shop. When she rang the number attached, she was offered an abortion.

It is unclear whether the Moldovan woman was also involved in the second case, involving a Filipino woman, however both procedures are said to have occurred within days of each other.

In this case, the woman was admitted to a Dublin maternity hospital suffering from complications as a result of the procedure. Gardai were alerted by the hospital.

The Moldovan woman is thought to have left the country, however investigations are continuing by Gardai at Pearse Street and the Bridewell station.

Yes ideally we should have a health bases sex and sexual education program in schools that covers sti and contraception and free contraception and contraceptive visits to the dr for those who are under 25.

Yes ideally we should have better supports so that placing a child up for adoption is an real option but in ireland post the laundries and so many children taken away from thier unmarried mothers it's something that we are loath to do.

People who callously use the terms like murder when it comes to the issue of abortion are part of the reason so many women do not talk about having had an abortion.

WindSock

ntlbell wrote: »

Because what's hers? the baby?

Should I be allowed to kill my kids cause their mine?

What's stopping me from taken them to the knitting needle shop and killing them now?

being committed for murder...and rightly so..

Because until the foetus cannot be supported outside her body then it is hers unless someone else can look after it.

ntlbell wrote: »

then don't have unprotected sex i guess?

It's not rocket science..

If accidents didn't happen there would be an awful lot less people in the world today.

citeal

I've had one. They are very very very hard to get over. And yes the OP is right, the travel back & forth in addition to the lack of after-support doesn't help.

Aisling(",)

no contraception is fool proof.the only 100% way is abstinance but people have needs to.
in that case sex should only be used for pro-creation?
i think it can be an initimate close experience with someone you love and people have urges

kazzer

WindSock wrote: »

Because it's hers? No matter what you say or do, she ultimately has the ability to get rid of a foetus, even if it means making a trip to the knitting needle shop.

So because you have the ability to do something, justifies doing it or makes you superior does it? Your logic is quite bizarre.

ntlbell

WindSock wrote: »

Because the foetus cannot be supported outside her body then it is hers until someone else can look after it.



If accidents didn't happen there would be an awful lot less people in the world today.

of course it's "hers" but because its "hers" doesn't give her the right to kill it.

accidents do happen, there's always the choice of not having sex if you're going to have to kill the baby because of an accident.

there's load of choices

cornbb

Ok, I'm a bloke but here's my 2c on it anyway.

I was once "pro-life" (I hate this pro-life/pro-choice terminology, but whatever), and I still don't know whether I would be ok with abortion, if I was a woman.

Then I came to think of it like this: the whole debate around abortion centres around the debate as to when life begins. Without getting into the ins and outs of it, this is a philosophical question, one which cannot be definitively answered by science, and therefore the definition must be a matter of opinion.

It is still my own opinion that life begins sometime before birth, but I do recognise that the definiton of when life begins is open to interpretation. With that in mind, I recognise the right to be able to choose.

Mr. Incognito

NTL- you're militant tone is not helping a civil debate- this is sadly why a lot of these things get locked.

A foetus is a foetus,
A baby is a baby
and a child is a child.

In Ireland the law doesn't make a distinction between foetus and baby.
In a lot of countries it does. You cannot compare your born children to a mass of cells after fertilisation.

Personally I don't agree with partial birth abortions or abortions after a certain development stage of the foetus but I do think it is a necessary choice for women who because of circumstance are unable to have the child-social circumstances/rape etc.

There is no woman in the world that takes aborting her child lightly. I've lived with an ex who had nightmares for years and regreted it every day- and another ex who thought it was the right decision for her at the time. It's not like lancing a boil- it's a painfull emotional decision and the last thing these vunerable people need is people who think they can foist their own moral judgements on them and call them murder's and baby killers, which simply is not true imo.

I wouldn't go around to your house and tell you how to raise your kids and people shouldn't come around to mine and tell me whether to have mine.

ntlbell

Aisling(",) wrote: »

no contraception is fool proof.the only 100% way is abstinance but people have needs to.
in that case sex should only be used for pro-creation?
i think it can be an initimate close experience with someone you love and people have urges

No contraception is 100% correct.

but the pill combined with a condom is pretty darn close to bullet proof.

I'm not saying sex should only be used for pro-creation but if it means you may have comit murder then maybe it can wait untill your at a stage in your life that you don't have to kill a child.

there's many ways to be intimate with a loved one without penetration

Nevyn

I think if posters want to have the age old fetus/baby discussion they should go to humanities. It's one think to say what your postion is and why it is another to brow beat, derail and post in an inflamatory fashion.

We are also having women going on line and getting the medical abortion pill and taking it with a dr over seeing them and with out the check ups needed.

http://www.independent.ie/health/lastest-news/women-go-online-to-buy-abortion-pill-1431746.html

Women go online to buy 'abortion pill'


By Eilish O'Regan Health Correspondent

Saturday July 12 2008

women are going online to buy medication to allow them have an abortion at home.

Women from the Republic and Northern Ireland -- which also has no abortion clinics -- were among 70 nationalities in a survey of 200 women using a website supplying abortion pills called 'Women on Web'.

A British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology review of 400 customers found nearly 11pc needed a surgical procedures after taking the medication bought online.

The website asks for a minimum of €70 as contribution to keep the site operational.

The research into those who used the site found that some 8pc did not use the medication they ordered.

Almost 11pc needed surgery -- because the drugs did not complete the abortion or because of excessive bleeding.

A spokesperson for the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA) said last night: "Through our medical and counselling services we are aware of an increase in women accessing medication over the internet to induce abortions here in Ireland."

"Women should seek a medical consultation if they are concerned about taking (the abortion pill) Misopristol.

"We would encourage women to visit our medical clinics immediately if they have any concerns."

In the survey, almost 200 women who used the website answered questions about their experiences.

Of these, 58pc said they were grateful to have been able to have an abortion, while 31pc felt stressed but found the experience acceptable.

I'd suggest people don't' feed the troll and maybe consider putting them on ignore.

enda1

Well everyone seems to be on about choice. Its not about choice.

For abortion to be allowed in the case of no threat to the mothers life, then we need a change in law stating that the thing inside the pregnant woman is not yet a life with rights. If this happens then abortion is just another medical procedure like removing a tumour or such and should of couse be allowed for anyone who wants it.

The question which needs to be raised is when a life begins. If its considered a life from conception then of couse its murder and cant be accepted (by law).

So the debate isn't a one of sufferage or any other women's rights agendas and everyone should have an equal say and have their opinions heard and respected.

Therefore I'm pro-"believing that we should allow the medical profession to determine when a foetus is at a stage where it has human-like inteligence/them deciding when a thing becomes human, thus allowing medical procedures on the foetus prior to this point"

WindSock

Ok the issue has been raised that if we wish to have a discussion in here about abortion then can we please have sensitivities of others in mind of others and not use words like 'Kill' and 'Murder'

Aisling(",)

im personally on the pill and use condoms aswell just to be sure but if somehow i ended up pregnant i still have the right to choose.i recognise that you hav your opinions and everyone has the right to voice their opinions but not to shove it down peoples throaths.
ive had a misscarrige a while back when i was unknowingly pregnant at the time i was upset but i know im better of not having a child at this age so i would see a termination as the best choice for me at the moment.

ntlbell

WindSock wrote: »

Ok the issue has been raised that if we wish to have a discussion in here about abortion then can we please have sensitivities of others in mind of others and not use words like 'Kill' and 'Murder'

Terminating another life? is that ok?

SunnyP

I don't think anyone truly knows whethar they are pro life or pro choice until they find themselves in a circumstance where its thought about.

I used to consider myself very pro life, my friend had an abortion when she was 15 I saw what effect it had on her yet when I myself got pregnant at a young age having an abortion was something I strongly considered.

In the end I had a miscarrig but to this day I really still cant say whethar I would have decided to get an abortion or not

I do believe though that there should be a choice, we live in whats supposed to be an open minded society. If both parents are in agreement of what they want they should not have the extra stress of travel arrangements etc.

The after care/counselling services need to be greatly improved too

cornbb

enda1 wrote: »

Therefore I'm pro-"believing that we should allow the medical profession to determine when a foetus is at a stage where it has human-like inteligence/them deciding when a thing becomes human, thus allowing medical procedures on the foetus prior to this point"

I agree completely, except I don't think the medical profession or science are qualified to make such an important distinction, its an essentially philosophical question. In that absence, people must be able to decide for themselves. However, using that logic, the "pro-choice" group must recognise and acknowledge that the "pro-life" group have a right to disagree with and be uncomfortable with their choice.