MPEG4 Irish DTT: BCI & Launch issues

Andy454

I thought trials were usually a final test before live marketing! BBC etc all ran trials straight into the launch! - Why do we stop for a year - effectively this will stall the market! - they may even loose some of their trial participants to sky, ntl etc!

It's seems very daft that they would ditch mpeg2 at this stage - considering the VAST MAJORITY of digital tv's on the market and in peoples homes now support the mpeg 2 service.

Its also a real nusiance as most flat tv's are wall mounted and will require an additional set-top boxes & cabling etc to mount the boxes beside them to decode the mpeg 4 signals

Also its not very envoirnmentally friendly - an additional set-top box means an additional 30watts of power required to run it!

30Watts x 2million = 60MEGAWATTS of power to run the boxes alone! Far be it for me to complain - The more electricity used, means more revenue in my pocket!

Looking around town in the different sony centres, its very off putting when you see a continuous big banner saying "Trial ceases on 31st of July"! You can't even enjoy the last few minutes before the darkness because of the silly big banner.

MPEG-2 is 1990s technology. There's very little point in adopting it now - if we did we'd have another switchover down the line. We already messed up with adopting Eureka 147 DAB so I'm glad we chose more recent technology for DTT.

scath

Bit of a problem with running with that Andy. 1st, the UK channels that were free with the trial will be charged most likely under current Boxer proposals due to non-UK territory and no TV license money from Ireland to the BBC.

Running the trial into the launch would create confusion on this issue. Suddenly you loose them. 6 months and you're weaned off. Actually the stop will be for 6 months. Officially its a year. Unofficially transmissions return 3 in to 5 days ie August 4th (tests) see: aertel 169. Losing participants to Sky/UPC might happen anyway. Its down to pricing. People talk about Sky ut they forget Freesat from Sky. (no subscription-one off equip & Install charge) for many channels UPC and now Boxer will charge for. An anomaly that creates big problems. Personally I think some TV license money should go towards BBC so as to make BBC FTA. ITV, probably will go FTA with Boxer for advertising reason and buy Irish programme rights with Irish broadcaster (joint/shared foreign programme rights).

On one hand yes ditching MPEG2 isn't environmentally friendly but Andy, Boxer propose a cam module that can connect to TVs to enable MPEG4 to be processed by the existing TV back into MPEG2 for the TV or something like that. So won't require a new STB, just a module connected into the TV.

MPEG4 allows more capacity, more radiowave spectrum efficient. Capacity=choice=more subscriptions because Pay DTT is a business.

So Andy, buy your module or wait til January if in Dublin/Louth and rescan on 4th of August and you're back in business. Dunno the story with Channel 6. Terrestrial has higher Irish content requirements. TV3 are apparently in advanced negotiations according to the papers possible for the 3 Expose channel (rebrand? using the green & blue of C6). If that completes then TV3 would conceivably apply for a license 12 year license for the channel at same time they renew their TV3 license.Can't see them not getting renewal. Who knows though, if others are waiting in the wings like UTV?

However, I still fancy Doughty Hanson to buy out UTV later in the year as though TV3 may be smaller than UTV, Doughty Hansons, 3's owners are a big European venture capital company so would have the financial fire power, plu they wanna get into radio having failed in recent times to win any.

Boxer's customers will be non cable households, and the lazy consumer who doesn't know all the options ie Freesat/Freesat from sky.

I expect UPC to match Boxer in product offering to hold onto customers so no changes there as UPC move to pre-pay options to hold customers. I see the best thing for cable is Liberty to buy out Boxer AB, get into the DTT business and radio (communicorp) and potentially Eircom and combo DTT and cable to effectively compete with Sky or other satellite operators elsewhere. Turn some of cable capacity into high speed internet.Otherwise cable TV will die a death over time. DTT is just so portable.

Andy454 wrote: »

I thought trials were usually a final test before live marketing! BBC etc all ran trials straight into the launch! - Why do we stop for a year - effectively this will stall the market! - they may even loose some of their trial participants to sky, ntl etc!

It's seems very daft that they would ditch mpeg2 at this stage - considering the VAST MAJORITY of digital tv's on the market and in peoples homes now support the mpeg 2 service.

Its also a real nusiance as most flat tv's are wall mounted and will require an additional set-top boxes & cabling etc to mount the boxes beside them to decode the mpeg 4 signals

Also its not very envoirnmentally friendly - an additional set-top box means an additional 30watts of power required to run it!

30Watts x 2million = 60MEGAWATTS of power to run the boxes alone! Far be it for me to complain - The more electricity used, means more revenue in my pocket!

Looking around town in the different sony centres, its very off putting when you see a continuous big banner saying "Trial ceases on 31st of July"! You can't even enjoy the last few minutes before the darkness because of the silly big banner.

watty

Andy454 wrote: »

I thought trials were usually a final test before live marketing! BBC etc all ran trials straight into the launch! - Why do we stop for a year - effectively this will stall the market! - they may even loose some of their trial participants to sky, ntl etc!

It's seems very daft that they would ditch mpeg2 at this stage - considering the VAST MAJORITY of digital tv's on the market and in peoples homes now support the mpeg 2 service.

Its also a real nusiance as most flat tv's are wall mounted and will require an additional set-top boxes & cabling etc to mount the boxes beside them to decode the mpeg 4 signals

The trial was a politcal DMCNR thing. RTE did their trials nearly 10 years ago.

TVs are evolving into monitors for media centres (not just DVD players) and game consoles as well as the Satellite/DTT /cable reception.

Actually most houses better suit the screen in a corner.

A decent HD set will take 300W to 800W depending on size. That won't reduce much as it has to generate light and sound. Set box power consumption is dropping, except PVRs / media centres can take up to 450W. A dedicated PVR/mediacenter with tuner is the future and even with 1000 Gbyte disc could still be only 30W.

My Sound system has 5.1 channels and upto 300W consumption. Those are rarely inside the screen either.

CO19

Just saw this http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/13386902?view=Eircomnet and thought it might be of interest to some



.....""Digital TV will be switched on next year
From irishtimes.com14:32Thursday, 31st July, 2008
RTE and commercial television stations will begin switching on digital television next year in the wake of a successful trial of the technology, Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan announced today.

The service will be free and is expected to reach 80 per cent of the country initially with all areas expected to be able to access the service within a few months of its launch.

1000 homes and businesses in Louth and Dublin participated in the Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) which began in August 2006.

Some eight out of 10 people who took part in the trial DTT was better than the current analogue television.

Ireland will now follow countries like France, Sweden, Norway and Estonia in adopting the latest digital television technology - MPEG 4 - which is capable of offering high definition services and more content.

Mr Ryan said superior technology gives better picture and sound quality and more choice to viewers.

“We have a tight timeframe but I am confident digital television in Ireland will offer new and exciting content and technology to the Irish viewer,” he said.

An estimated 24 per cent of homes which do not have either a cable or satellite connection will have to buy a set-top box to watch digital.

The old analogue system will be switched off in 2012.

Under the new digital system, an expanded free-to-air service will provide up to eight channels including RTE1, RTE2, TV3 and TG4.

There are also plans to introduce a new Oireachtas channel, which will broadcast political debates, and an Irish film channel.

The other 76 per cent of households who subscribe to NTL, Sky or have a satellite connection will not require a set-top box.

A public awareness campaign about the new service will begin next March.""...

Myxomatosis

"The other 76 per cent of households who subscribe to NTL, Sky or have a satellite connection will not require a set-top box."

A tad bit misleading.

CO19

Myxomatosis wrote: »

"The other 76 per cent of households who subscribe to NTL, Sky or have a satellite connection will not require a set-top box."

A tad bit misleading.

Yea I don't understand what that's about

Fat_Fingers

Its nothing to worry, its just normal shoddy research into the subject... :rolleyes:

Solair

With 76% of the population already on UPC or Sky it doesn't leave a huge amount of market for RTE/Boxer DTT.

I'd also suspect that the people who are left are the 'laggards' i.e. those who are happy enough to just have 4 channels.

I suppose they will possibly take a huge chunk the MMDS market though, if they're cheaper than UPC.

Personally, I think DTT is launching way way too late to have much impact.

Mossy Monk

I have Sky but will also use DTT. A free way of receiving a digital version of the terrestrials.

watty

Unfortunately 95% of the 80% who will get DTT initially probably get UPC cable/MMDS or Sky/Satellite already.

The 20% who won't get DTT can't get cable and mostly don't get MMDS.

Mayo Exile

Piece from the DCENR announcing the end of the trial and future plans:

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Minister+Ryan+announces+end+of+Digital+Terrestrial+Television+trial.htm

Similar piece from Rte.ie/news, also has audio clip of Minister Eamon Ryan's interview about DTT on Radio One's News at One.

Link: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0731/television.html

scath

Well the signal went for MPEG2 transmissions and Mux at 23:56. I thought that was good of them working late, so that trialists had the trial right through until end of July.

Survey – key findings:

82% of those involved in the trial would recommend digital television to a friend, citing reception and picture quality as the main reasons for so doing and 84% were satisfied with the overall service.

Also on the trial:

92% of participants in the trial reported satisfaction with the sound quality of digital television, 90% found the picture quality high and 88% found the technology easy to use.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Minister+Ryan+announces+end+of+Digital+Terrestrial+Television+trial.htm
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0731/news1pm_av.html?2405347,null,209%27) for the audio clip
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0731/television.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0731/breaking56.htm
http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/News/Minister+Ryan+announces+end+of+Digital+Terrestrial+Television+trial.htm

Also mention of co-ordination on switchover with NI, for border viewers which I think is good. So retune on 4th for the Irish 4. I wonder what about the Newstalk, will that be carried. Today FM will be, I suppose that's it for the DAB stations. Or maybe more will be added because of the use of MPEG4. Have cable back on but barely getting Sky news...ah...No more 1min countdown for BBC News Channel, lol.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Piece from the DCENR announcing the end of the trial and future plans:

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Minister+Ryan+announces+end+of+Digital+Terrestrial+Television+trial.htm

Similar piece from Rte.ie/news, also has audio clip of Minister Eamon Ryan's interview about DTT on Radio One's News at One.

Link: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0731/television.html

Mayo Exile

originally posted by scath: Well the signal went for MPEG2 transmissions and Mux at 23:56.

Yes. Virtually the same up here at CC. Timed it at 23:57.

Rick_

From digitaltelevision.ie:

"The content on the national DTT service operated by RTÉ will be free to air. This will comprise the national Irish Channels plus some new TV channels."

Wonder what the new channels will be, eh?

Also, are the 4 FTA channels that are coming back on the 4th August going to be MPEG 2 or 4? Not much point retuning if we can't watch!

Mayo Exile

Paddy C, they are going to be MPEG4 only.

The Cush

Paddy C wrote: »

"Also, are the 4 FTA channels that are coming back on the 4th August going to be MPEG 2 or 4? Not much point retuning if we can't watch!

MPEG4 ONLY from http://www.rtenl.ie/index.asp

Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT)
RTÉNL will commence DTT engineering test transmissions during the week commencing 4th August 2008. The system will operate with MPEG4 encoding only and is in accordance with the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland’s (BCI) requirement that DTT receivers should support MPEG4 in its Guide to Submissions for DTT Multiplex Contracts (see www.bci.ie). Please also see ComReg documents 07/90a & 07/90b at www.comreg.ie . The Department of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources trial used both MPEG2 & MPEG4 encoding. Standard UK “Freeview” type set top boxes will not be able to decode these test transmissions.

pnag

Right-o!

Can anyone recommend a STB that will do the trick once the broadcasts start again?

Mebbe even a couple, i.e. a cheap and cheerful, and another with a CI? What's available at the moment, where and at what price?

Just if anyone's in the know! Maplin haven't been too helpful to date...

doh.ie

pnag wrote: »

Right-o!

Can anyone recommend a STB that will do the trick once the broadcasts start again?

Mebbe even a couple, i.e. a cheap and cheerful, and another with a CI? What's available at the moment, where and at what price?

Just if anyone's in the know! Maplin haven't been too helpful to date...

Anyone know if a simple rescan on a Humax MPEG4 box (DTT trial) will do the trick once the FTAs are back up and running again? Or is there a likelihood of encryption for the MPEG4 trial?

I see nothing present across the UHF spectrum today (in DVB-T form anyway) - was RTE's August 4th date a mistake, or did they not ever plan to relaunch on a Bank Holiday (it did seem odd) anyway?

scath

Correction...I think afew of us got the impression it was August 4th. But in fairness, the RTE NL website says as does the aertel page say, the week starting August 4th. Someone on here reckoned Wednesday. So no mistake, its our mistake not to read it properly. Patience I suppose. Sometime this week they're to be back. But strictly speaking until October 2009 they're not obliged to offer them in DTT yet.

doh.ie

scath wrote: »

Correction...I think afew of us got the impression it was August 4th. But in fairness, the RTE NL website says as does the aertel page say, the week starting August 4th. Someone on here reckoned Wednesday. So no mistake, its our mistake not to read it properly. Patience I suppose. Sometime this week they're to be back. But strictly speaking until October 2009 they're not obliged to offer them in DTT yet.

Good point on the date thing.

Although RTE don't have to offer DTT until October 2009 (though Boxer somehow think they'll be up and running in *January* say reports!), ironically, despite the DTT trial being exactly that, you'd be amazed at the numbers who were using it as a way of getting RTE in better quality than the weak analogue signal in many Three Rock/Clermont Carn-serving areas.

So for those people with MPEG4 boxes (or anyone without Sky, looking for decent quality RTE), the sooner the DTT 'trials' resume, the better. That our state broadcaster can't provide uniform good quality analogue signals is another matter entirely.

Derek Conniffe

Hi all,

I don't see any transmission from 3rock now other than some DVB-H channels on a single multiplex. Hopefully they'll start transmitting something [usable] again soon.

I'm interested in seeing if I can decode a DVB-T MPEG4 transmission with LinuxTV.

Does anyone know anything about their new transmission format? If its DVB-T2 then I believe that standard DVB-T receivers (DVB-T sticks, etc) are doomed but if its a DVB-T transmission with MPEG4 encoding then perhaps there is hope?

thanks for any info

Derek

Myxomatosis

Derek Conniffe wrote: »

Does anyone know anything about their new transmission format? If its DVB-T2 then I believe that standard DVB-T receivers (DVB-T sticks, etc) are doomed but if its a DVB-T transmission with MPEG4 encoding then perhaps there is hope?

DVB-T with H.264 video. No DVB-T2.

Derek Conniffe

Thanks M,

That sounds quite hopeful so (super cheap DVB-T sticks should work with the likes of LinuxTV & MythTV). When (if?) the channels start broadcasting I'll see if I can receive and decode them.

Derek

Alun

They appear to be broadcasting the free to air mux (738Mhz) from 3Rock right now.

Joe Bangle

Alun wrote: »

They appear to be broadcasting the free to air mux (738Mhz) from 3Rock right now.

Yes -- eight channels: four TV and four radio: RTE 1, RTE 2, TG4, TV3, 2FM, LYRIC, RADIO 1, RnaG

SteveMichaels

Not wishing to appear like a fool, especially on my first post but are you supposed to have a picture from the tv channels? Mine is just flashing up 'HD service' on the screen, but I'm getting sound from the radio stations fine.

Thanks
Steve

Rick_

Your receiver must not be MPEG 4 standard then as it can't decode the signal properly. That's why there's no picture.

UlsterMan

Same channels available on Ch53 Claremont Carn. Might order an MPEG4 CAM to see if that'll work in my IDTV.

The_Conductor

8 Services coming in perfectly clear on Channel 54 from 3Rock. Signal strength is a lot stronger than it was for the DCMNR trials. Services are:

RTE1,
Network2,
TV3,
TnaG,
Radio1,
Radio2,
Lyric,
RnaG

Oh- the Neotion CAM is working perfectly! Its in the CAM slot on a 32" Sony W Series panel. For EUR55, I'm a happy customer!