MPEG4 Irish DTT: BCI & Launch issues

scath

Thanks RoverDublin. I may ask for this one as replacement from where I bought it as its no good after August 4th if I can't watch anything or get teletext. So I may try a retune on that date and then bring back! I think its won't show anything from then. It seems to have no problem with MPEG2 but no way of changing settings to MPEG4.

roverdublin wrote: »

I have a Pinnacle 320e and a Pinnacle 330e DVB-T stick and since June the new Version of PCTV TV Centre Pro 4.98 is working nicely with MPEG4 HDTV H.264.

The HD Ireland Channel is a treat.

Pat Gleeson

roverdublin wrote: »

The HD Ireland Channel is a treat.

What exactly is broadcast on the HD channel ? All I've heard of was the Leinster Hurling semi-final last year. Is it a mix of RTE / TV3 / TG4, or just mostly HD imports ?

roverdublin

Be aware ! - to run the Pinnacle stick you need a fairly good PC. To encode the stream your PC needs all the power it has. I have a 3GHz Intel Dual core, so this works well.
The package is not advertising MPEG4. For €75 in PC World it was a gamble but it worked. I think you get it in ELARA too. The DAZZLE TV Hybrid stick (analogue/digital) comes in a blueish package.

HD Ireland is transmitting TEST programs like a David Attenborough documentation which is really nice to watch in HD. Of course the content can change from time to time and it is daily repeating.

Pinnacle TVCenter Pro 4.99 released
http://forums.pinnaclesys.com/forums/thread/209776.aspx

STB

At the outset, can I just say I am trying to be helpful. The main point I was attempting to make is that the broadcasting standard that will be rolled out in Ireland is MPEG 4 H264 with MHEG 5. This is particularly important for people who insist on buying/sourcing a stb/tv now. Turning to the newspapers at the weekend it surprised me that a leading TV chain continue to advertise "HD ready" TVs with mpeg 2 tuners they know will not work here (thus having to go out and buy an mpeg 4 STB) as they are quite obviously geared to the UK market. It is important that the word gets out that these TVs are not suitable for the irish market as they do contain a suitable FTA receiver.

scath wrote: »

stb...disinformation spreading was not quite a good turn of phrase.Info is at a point in time and subject to change by the powers that be. The trial was to end on August 31st from what I thought but apparently its August 1st.

The trial had a 2 year timeframe. It launched on 16 August 2006. It ends at the end of the month

scath wrote: »

I'm thinking the reason why all the encrypted channels are going is because the RTE Mux probably will only have Irish channels only. That will be its purpose. I imagine that Mux 2, 3 and 4 will be switched off temporarily so that the commercial mux winner can conclude provisional negotiations and decide what to do. The first thing will be an agreed EPG. I wonder will the winner if Onevision put up the free-to-air channels its going to offer for testing. Maybe and will the trial boxes work with commercial DTT or only be FTA boxes?

The trial was just that scath. All of the channels were part of the trial. The purpose of switching all of the channels off is that the trial is ending. RTE will be recommence broadcasting in MPEG4 and yes it probably a given that MUX 1 broadcasts initially will be the 4 terrestrial stations, imo, until the Broadcasting Bill is passed that allows for the Film Channel and Oireachtas Channel to be added to that line up.

I would be of the opinion that it is highly likely that the succesful commercial multiplex applicant will introduce its own STB with whatever encryption system for its commercial content (as well as obviously receing the FTA content).

Yes the trial box will work for FTA's as it is an MPEG4 H264 receiver. However, some of the interactive elements or text will not be available as their is no MHEG 5 middleware in those Humax boxes that were used for the trial.

scath wrote: »

So what's the story with the digital teletext, will the software updates for the boxes be OTA or need plug into internet to update? RTE have only just posted the info stb.. the trial info has only jus been released stb..listen no worries..just the disinformation word was abit high handed a word. I went on what I heard okay. I didn't say it was right, my guess was as good as their's. okay...smiling again!

scath wrote: »

Digital teletext is not supported by the Humax trial box so over the air firware updates would be fairly useless! Its hardware anyhow, its either there or its not. Thats were the MHEG5 middleware bit comes in. Its a miminum requirement of future STBs.

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/NR/rdonlyres/BFED0C82-501B-42E0-8F38-0789EA604497/0/MinimumReceiverRequirementsforDTTinIrelandv10.pdf

Again scath only trying to be helpful. I just know people like to pick what they want from threads and end up going away misguided or confused (I see that another poster has now assumed that the reference to the laptop shop guy was a reference to a particular branded shop - not that I knew that the shop even existed! See what I mean ? - . Thats all.

STB

reslfj wrote: »

In no way. This is nothing but marketing prose. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

There is nothing ideal about DVB-T - except the timing.

Oh. one thing - a poor developing country where money is counted in Cents and not in Euros - the lowest cost DVB-T STB may be a little less expensive.

Hardly relevant for Ireland, I should think.

But 2010 is just 17 months and 21 days from today. Where do you spot a problem ?.

DVB-T2/MPEG-4 HD receivers will be in the shops - before Christmas 2009 - simple market logic.

Lars

"There are fears that countries that have not yet launched DTT services using the DVB-T standard may choose to wait until DVB-T2 products become available. Doing so, however, will lead to a delay in the launch of DTT services and postpone the switch-off analogue services for a corresponding period. " /TNT.net/forum Mar 2008

Lars the use of DVB-T technology now is quite obviously about the switch to digital and the switching off of analogue.

In order to rollout digital television there has to be central planning. That requires some time I would imagine in terms of advertising for perspective multiplex operators and something possibly not best done overnight. That digital switchover target set by the EU is likeliest driving force across Europe.

With this in mind any such reference to DVB-t2 technology is obviously a non runner!

The availability of affordable receivers will aid the digital switchover and imminent analogue timeframe set. Newly announced technology such as dvb-t2 for which receivers are not even commercial available (let alone on an affordable basis) will most certainly not. Affordability is most certainly applicable to Ireland as it is to any country (recession or not)

The whole why cant we wait argument is blatantly ridiculous and quite similar to the whole DAB vs DAB+ debate. The announcement of so called new technology is often signalling a distant dot in the future. Each DVB standard starts its life in the Commercial Module. Based on the needs of the market, the Commercial Module and its Working Groups draw up a set of user requirements that outline the market parameters such as user functions, timescales and price range.

As the people at DVB Project put it "The new standard (DVB-T2) is designed for a post-ASO environment" and that quite clearly is sometime down the line.

Anyhow I note that the standard is DVB-T per the BCI's multiplex guidelines.

scath

Eh STB, lets virtually shake hands lol no bother..I know what ya mean..sometimes the board can offer speculation rather than fact. There's the temptation in the absence of factual data to post speculative info ie the after trial situation.But mostly the board tries to keep to fact I have found. Still opinion or speculation is better than nowt.

Now we know the situation and great to see the dcmnr and digitaltelevision websites updated, however an article on this point in Siliconrepublic.com failed to promote the dedicated website to readers at the minimum to those whom the MPEG2 broadcast on remaining spectrum were addressed.

The contributor to the author has a great blog rte2fta.com, a good article in Silicon Republic about the point that you raised. However DVB-T2 is already being mandated by Ofcom for PSB 3 Mux and the BBC have begun trialling it. Its implementation will not be 2012 as you may expect but during 2009-2012 ASO periods. Clearly this has implications for us. Its introduction could be expected to begin in 2010 in an area by area basis ie Wales, 2010 has implications for us. Northern Ireland 2012. Similarly. We can't expect RTÉ NL to upgrade its network and people to buy new boxes when people will complain about this incompatibility or being unable to recieve UK channels.

Co-incidently incompatability may suit the DTT operator as Freeview stations from the UK may be charged here but free via scan of UK receivable DTT. However indications are that overspill will be reduced, but for how long and how much. Capacity benefits and spectrum efficiencies remain compelling for early T2 adoption. Will customers pay more for compatability? If it gives them something free-you betcha!

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/dttfuture/ita.pdf

Therein lies the issue, are we going to be incompatible again, once Freeview leap-frogs us? Can the commercial operator not subsidise the high T2 box cost against the extra channel revenues from same. After all 1/2 ComReg spectrum license til 2012 kind of take such into consideration. 30-45% capacity increase is alot. Boxes are likely to be available for T2 by launch time in Autumn 2009.

I think Lars may be foreseeing this issue.Arquiva are involved in the UK testing and if they win the license here, they may consider the possibility of being able to technically advise RTE NL and retail equipment that covers two markets ie Freevew boxes working here and vice versa. Freeview is short of spectrum pre ASO and one could foresee customers upgrading for HD once channels launch on it as are on Freesat ie BBC HD & ITV HD. I understand Channel 4 just joined Freesat recently also.

MHEG is hardware. A right..so if one wants the EPG really badly then I suppose one must buy the box that will come out or some sort of exchange or amnesty that boxer's proposal maybe forsees. When I have asked retailers they tell me that Digital TVs have MPEG4 tuners as the TVs come with TNT logos and TNT pay option uses MPEG4.

So I think the issue of waiting isn't a big one. Others see the DVB org recommendation on T2 as not wanting to make T redundant sales wise with the manufacturers not wishing to have customers holding off buying network equipment and boxes for a year or so. They may see T2 as a future product.

I agree with you that the 2 proposed channels probably await the autumn with 2009 the likely restart phase. It is good to see the info screen up regarding OTV. I would like to hear the audio feed in an Oireachtas Radio on LW and DAB aswell included in the Bill.

STB

Welll in terms of overspill its inevitable that stations will be available/not available ! Its unfortunate that the transport streams are different at present, but that ONLY effects those in the cross border regions! Ireland chose MPEG4. Why would a commercial operator want to subsidise anything for the purposes of serving people outside its coverage area ??

Personally, I do not think that the analogue switchoff along the welsh coast is a major issue due to

a) that the Ofcom's remit is to serve the British market, not Rep of Ireland. Any reception was due to overspill only.

b) the fast emrgence of the branded Freesat boxes that allegedly dont.. ahem cover the whole of Ireland! (as watty may have hinted at earlier in this thread) waters that too.

The point at b may shoot down your arguement that less spillover would suit the DTT multiplex operator. Freesat being the sat equivelant of Freeview. By the way, besides the Fresat boxes, it is interesting to see the substancial number of freely availble combo MPEG4 DVB-T/DVB-S boxes out there at present! I wonder how take up will be ????

There are 3 or 4 TV's that I have seen that have MPEG4 tuners built in. The majority on the Irish market are not, especially from large electrical chains! Its worrying and it something the distributors need to watch. Afterall it has been no big secret what minimum technology requirements will be. The average punter is being dazzled by HD READY etc etc. Little do they know that if they do not wish to subscribe to SKY or NTL or Chorus that they will pick up zilch. This is unfair and misleading.

Sorry DVB-T2 is pie in the sky stuff and is not suitable for the purposes of Digital Switchon for obvious reasons.

scath

I think you make valid points about the fact that Freesat has launched. I mean they might as well retail combo boxes which Sky may decide to do with their freesat box option as a way of encouraging takeup of something from Sky.

What we are talking about is more channel capacity. Of course its perfectly doable to run with MPEG4 and T and then upgrade in 2013. That could be argued. On the other hand the greater capacity from early T2 may be attractive. Remember many just can't buy a freesat box because they can't or don't want to put up dishes.

I can see the point in terms of combo boxes being available and I think it will be combo boxes that will sell more than DTT only boxes as an investment that the person can if movingb place to somewhere they are allowed to put up a dish. Certainly that plan to charge for UK channels given freesat is a problem for UPC and the DTT consortium. I think the solution to that is for UPC to drop it and pay half the cost of it on DTT and introduce a combo box as a competitive response to Satellite. Its just with T2 DTT would be a stronger product due to capacity increases.

Your points are equally valid though.

scath

Myxomatosis got me sorted with DVB Viewer. Now I'm ready for August 4th! (Claps) hehe...So odd the usb software Media TV3 doesn't allow this option. Maybe a retune on August 4th will enable it but DVB Viewer hasn't a problem. Strange! Of course the interface isn't as nice but its gives me more info such as EPG but not teletext. This board is really great for the less techie of us who go off and buy things and then have to deal with the consequences after of the wrong items. If alot of retailers are selling MPEG2 items then ye and Brian are spot on. Like how are retailers getting away with that. Of course their argument is buy a box. But its not fair that people expect TVs to be ready and MPEG2 ones are being offloaded for sale here. Its plain wrong. Part of the reason to buy a TV is to avoid buying set top boxes, which the slot in the TV can accommodate decryption cards .

kuro_man

Regarding RTE trial going mpeg4, you can get a CAM (for CI slot) that will transcode mpeg4 to mpeg2

http://listings.maplin.co.uk/free_uk_delivery/conax_mpeg-4_cam_100895_v2.htm
Similar available on e-bay

I doubt it will handle T2->T or HD->SD, only mpeg4 to mpeg2 but you might find one.

Anyone ever used one?

STB

That is not cheap for what it does. Hold off for the mo would be my take.

By the way, you would also require an existing box that has a common interface slot! And even then, picking the right CAM now is crystal ball stuff as it is not clear what encryption system the winning commercial mux bidder will use.

Transcoding MPEG 4 to MPEG2 also defeats the purpose of encoding in MPEG4 in the first place btw.

kuro_man

Agreed, its not cheap, but is anything in maplins? If would probably try internet/e-bay if I was going to buy one. As it only a trial, RTE can do anything and render anything you buy now useless!

Don't think mpeg4 has any major advantage over mpeg2 from a viewers point of view, mpeg2 picture can be good with high bit-rates. Biggest advantage is for broadcaster - mpeg4 uses less bandwidth so more channels can be created in the same spectrum.

Most TV's have a CI slot built-in (is it an EU requirement now?) - it would be interesting to see how the (freeview) tuner behaves with one.

ronan.michael@g

Myxomatosis wrote: »

It means that you'll have to buy the set-top boxes which will appear in stores when the official service is up and running.

Hi M, Would you know how soon after the present mpeg2 tests stop will the mpeg4 start? Will there be much of a delay time , if any, before mpeg4 startup? Am assuming the present four local stations will be free , and available , when they start. Am poised with my mpeg4 receiver - Technomate Combo HD TM 6900 - recently bought and ready to go! Thanks, Michael r.

Myxomatosis

ronan.michael@g wrote: »

Would you know how soon after the present mpeg2 tests stop will the mpeg4 start? Will there be much of a delay time , if any, before mpeg4 startup?

Haven't a clue my friend, I have no insider knowledge at all, at all.

Although I think I did read somewhere that MPEG4 will commence the weekend following the last day of the current trials.

ronan.michael@g

Myxomatosis wrote: »

Haven't a clue my friend, I have no insider knowledge at all, at all.

Although I think I did read somewhere that MPEG4 will commence the weekend following the last day of the current trials.

Thanks M --- for speedy rtn. Will hope for the best. Am spoiled with the quality reception from 3Rock digital. Thanks again Michael r.

watty

They may not change to MPEG4 till later in year or early next year. Needs different / extra head end gear on a per channel basis.

STB

I had hear that the 4th August 08 was the switch on by RTE (in MPEG 4). However I bow to watty's superior knowledge.

By the way, am testing that very Technomate at the moment works fine, some nice functionality.

scath

Its the 4th of August so the Dept understand see attachment. I assume the weekend downtime is so that MPEG2 transmissions can be ceased and the multiplexing changed to a different channel line-up ie OTV and HD Ireland moved to 6 & 7. I wonder will the BCI winner add any free-to-air channels to it. It'll be pretty much unofficial test time so things can go off-air and on-air intermittently without warning ie requiring retuning!

Mayo Exile

Just reading the second last paragraph of the letter to DTT trial participants. One line states:

Your set top box can be used to receive RTE's testing and development work in the meantime and can also be used when national rollout commences.

A hint maybe that DVB-T/MPEG4 is to be used and not DVB-T2/MPEG4 as the UK will use from late 2009?

scath

I suppose odds on that it'll be T1/MPEG4. This is what RTE NL are most likely rolling out. I don't know what consideration is been given to T2. If Arquiva win as part of the Onevision bid, maybe though they'll wish to have remaining transmitters in 2009 upgraded to T2.They're involved in the BBC T2 tests.

Holding off for a few months shouldn't be a big problem from planned start off date. Its now a matter for RTE and the bid winner I would say rather than the Department what is chosen.

However ComReg might decide to take the Ofcom line perhaps and seek during the license for T2 to be implemented. But maybe that's not so likely much a consideration for them because its different for the UK with demand coming from lots of broadcasters and shortage of spectrum on freeview etc.

Nothing to stop them RTE and the BCI,changing the minimum specification. For the moment RTÉ & Mux winner would be negotiating with channels and designing the marketing strategy etc and trialling EPG etc..

But I suppose odds on that they'll run with T1, give it 5 years and then start upgrading in about 3 years time. Who knows. I suppose like RTE have already purchased T1 and H1 transmission equipment now. So I don't know how they'd do it. Is it just replacing some equipment or replacing the whole thing?
btw the 2nd attachment is the DTT Regulations 2008

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Just reading the second last paragraph of the letter to DTT trial participants. One line states:



A hint maybe that DVB-T/MPEG4 is to be used and not DVB-T2/MPEG4 as the UK will use from late 2009?

watty

STB wrote: »

I had hear that the 4th August 08 was the switch on by RTE (in MPEG 4). However I bow to watty's superior knowledge.

By the way, am testing that very Technomate at the moment works fine, some nice functionality.

I've no information other than that actual RTE tests "nationwide" by August (rather than the Dept Trial which is not RTE) and that the real service will be early next year and MPEG4 + MHEG5

I think T2 at this stage is unlikely as that would set back public rollout by nearly a year. It does make longer term sense, but Ireland famously only cares about today's Politics. (Hence building standards not improved 15 years ago even though extra cost on a new house only 5% because of political interests, even though Gov's own committee recommended it).

We are 8 years behind due to failure of 1st rollout plan and the "Trials" was a Political Sop to Europe to show we are doing something. I doubt we will delay now while T2 setboxes become available (there won't be any extra cost once in mass production)

reslfj

STB wrote: »

Lars the use of DVB-T technology now is quite obviously about the switch to digital and the switching off of analogue.

As the people at DVB Project put it "The new standard (DVB-T2) is designed for a post-ASO environment" and that quite clearly is sometime down the line.

Anyhow I note that the standard is DVB-T per the BCI's multiplex guidelines.

This is purely a marketing quote - written to lure viewers into buying DVB-T now, and forcing huge extra cost upon the viewers later.

With a pay system and using MPEG-4, the STB's will be a lot more than €30.

There is absolutely nothing in the DVB-T2 standard that makes it any less fit for the ASO. But a lot - not so smart - in the DVB-T standard.

The value of legacy STB's is more a political than an economical problem, but it is NOT yet a problem in Ireland, This problem is being created by s****d political impatience. :mad:

The big mistake often made with DVB-T2 is that there will be a -T3, -T4 ....standard. This is very unlikely, as the DVB-T2 is getting so close to the 'Shannon limit' that any significant improvements cannot be expected.

"Wird DVB-T2 jemals verbessert werden? Wahrscheinlich nicht – es hat die Grenzen des theoretisch Machbaren weitgehend erreicht" /Prof. Dr.-Ing. U. Reimers ( http://www.fktg.de/nachrichten.asp 10.07.2008 )

Lars

watty

I agreee. DVB-s and DVB-t was fairly good and DVB-S2 and DVB-t2 are really as good as it will get. Mathematically we have now scraped the barrel.

Also on video Codec, there is evidence that only "fractal" encoding (which may not be possible) for video can achieve significantly more than MPEG4. AAC is similarly close to as good as it will get with Audio.

In the past 15 years we have seen
MJPEG --> MPEG1 --> MPEG2 --> MPEG4

The rapid change I believe is now at an end. I can't see Fractal Encoding becoming a reality.

On Audio
ADPCM --> MP2 --> MP3 --> AAC

At CD quality the difference between these compressions is much much less marked than video improvement.

At decent quality:
ADPCM & MJPEG 2:1 Audio and 5:1 Video
The MP2 & MPEG1 was 10:1 and 250:1 compression of Audio & Video

AAC gives about 30% improvement on MP3 and MPEG4 about 50% saving compared to MPEG2.

Most development now is how to do these better quality and cheaper in real time compared with taking as long as you like 2 pass encoding of files. (Offline files based conversion / encoding has been good for some time).

Cable has been lagging DVB-s and DVB-c. There is less incentive for a DVB-c2. Cable set boxes with MPEG4 for SD and HD are only really recently reaching customers. It's very operator driven by the larger operators and the emphasis is on hybrid DOCSIS/DVB-c and Switch Video delivered by Fibre to roadside cabinet and cable only shared between 1/4 of houses on a street. Spectrum is 110MHz to 860MHz so is nearly x3 what DTT will have after analogue switch off. Switched video allows almost any number of channels as long as spectrum for channels is larger than number of set boxes on the cable segment.

Also cable runs at much much higher QAM than DTT or Satellite. QAM256 is not unusual. DVB-t typically QAM16, thus cable can carry about x4 channels per MHz compared to DTT due to lack of multipath and better SNR.

scath

Looks like T2 boxes could be available by Autumn 2009 judging by http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/?p=5639 which mentions Autumn 2009 for BBC HD on Freeview, the time when DTT is meant to officially launch. So will we get T2 boxes. I suppose we may! That's good news eh! For once we're lucky with the timing!

watty

The Irish Market will be dumped with unwanted MPEG4 non-T2, just like all the cheap analogue only tuner DVD or HD recorders and supposed HD TVs

The Dunnes 99 Euro DVD recorder was nearly 300 Euro at launch in Germany. But who wants it there now with only analogue in/tuner? The Plustron is rebranding. The Badge falls off revealing original German branding, though the Firmware logo is more durable

Good value though on a Sky Box or even playback and 5.1 analogue decoding for a surround amp with no decoder. The €35 to €55 player onlys are not anything like as good.

GrumPy

watty wrote: »

The Irish Market will be dumped with unwanted MPEG4 non-T2, just like all the cheap analogue only tuner DVD or HD recorders and supposed HD TVs

The Dunnes 99 Euro DVD recorder was nearly 300 Euro at launch in Germany. But who wants it there now with only analogue in/tuner? The Plustron is rebranding. The Badge falls off revealing original German branding, though the Firmware logo is more durable

Good value though on a Sky Box or even playback and 5.1 analogue decoding for a surround amp with no decoder. The €35 to €55 player onlys are not anything like as good.

Interesting. I have a sony dvd recorder with both analogue and digital tuners. Will this work when MPEG4 arrives? I assume it wont prolly only supports MPEG2

scath

So guys, I wonder, any chance of Europe by satellite between now and relaunch or is it the close-down screen until Broadcasting Bill is enacted and commenced? Any takers lol? The feedback page is gone after a good 2 weeks.

bf1

Post moved to: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055339462&page=8

JanusGeminius

bf1 wrote: »

Boxer will provide free-of-charge to customers an MPEG-4 Plug & Play module to enable
MPEG-2 integrated digital TVs (iDTVs) to receive the new MPEG-4 DTT service. This should
mitigate any latent concern that the consumer electronics industry may have about the volume
of iDTVs that have already been sold with MPEG-2 tuners.

CAM with MPEG 4 decoder build in if I'm not mistaken, you can buy them on various satellite specialist sites.

bf1

Won't complain if it is being given out gratis