MPEG4 Irish DTT: BCI & Launch issues

taung

Hot off the presses from the Department of Communcations, Energy & Natural Resources;

"The (DTT) trial is concluding at midnight on 31st July next. RTE has indicated that they plan to upgrade the trial network at Three Rock and Clermont Carn over that weekend and to recommence broadcasts of the Irish television channels from August 4th 2008 using MPEG 4 compression technology. RTE will use this network to test DTT services. The nature of the RTE testing has not been confirmed and may be subject to interruption but it should enable you to continue to receive RTE channels via your DTT set-top box."

The DTT trial is dead, long live the new, improved DTT trial!!!:D

scath

stb...disinformation spreading was not quite a good turn of phrase.Info is at a point in time and subject to change by the powers that be. The trial was to end on August 31st from what I thought but apparently its August 1st. T

I'm thinking the reason why all the encrypted channels are going is because the RTE Mux probably will only have Irish channels only. That will be its purpose. I imagine that Mux 2, 3 and 4 will be switched off temporarily so that the commercial mux winner can conclude provisional negotiations and decide what to do. The first thing will be an agreed EPG. I wonder will the winner if Onevision put up the free-to-air channels its going to offer for testing. Maybe and will the trial boxes work with commercial DTT or only be FTA boxes?

So what's the story with the digital teletext, will the software updates for the boxes be OTA or need plug into internet to update? RTE have only just posted the info stb.. the trial info has only jus been released stb..listen no worries..just the disinformation word was abit high handed a word. I went on what I heard okay. I didn't say it was right, my guess was as good as their's. okay...smiling again!

So..I'm shore ya were being jovial..anyhow...an advisory note on DVB-T usb sticks would be in order also. They are for sale but will have a problem in August on. Does anyone know what software and how to modify to view in MPEG 4. presumably its not the hardware but just need to update the installation files with MPEG4? I assume RTE News Now will probably go up sometime.

STB wrote: »

Lots of disinformation in this thread! I especially love these posts attributed to the guy from the laptop shop!

RTE have posted the info quite clearly on the NL website.

The trial as we know it (or as those on the trial know it) will come to an end at the end of this month. That means no more SKY Sports 1, Channel 6 etc as was provided in encrypted format as part of the trial epg.

Future broadcasting on DTT will be MPEG4 using MHEG5 middleware for the interactive elements. People who had the trial boxes will be able to use them still as they are MPEG4 receivers. Obviously, PSB channels will not be encrypted.

It is therefore important that when you go walk into a retail store to buy a new TV that you remember that

• LCD's/TV's that have MPEG2 tuners will not be able to pick up free to air digital signals after 31/7/07, so please dont buy one. Otherwise you will have to buy a seperate STB for the free to air services.

• Freeview boxes are of no use in Southern Ireland for Irish DTT services as Freeview boxes are MPEG2 which is not compatible.

From what I hear, RTE will recommence broadcasting on DTT within a few days of the official shutdown of the trial. That recommencement will be in MPEG4 and will be the PSB channels, but will be subject to interuption as RTE upgrade and put in place DTT transmission facilities throughout the country. Keep an eye on http://digitaltelevision.ie as I would imagine that announcements must be due here soon given the trial end.

Overspill is nothing new, due to it being a small island, infact 71% of people in N ireland can receive RTE at present on analogue. http://www.ofcom.org.uk/research/cm/cmrnr08/nireland/

UTV is also free to air on the other side of the border as watty has pointed out.

Freesat signals are also generally receivable in Ireland.

Myxomatosis

...DVB-T usb sticks would be in order also. They are for sale but will have a problem in August on. Does anyone know what software and how to modify to view in MPEG 4

Most decent DVB-T USB stick / PCI card manufacturers provide MPEG 4 cabable software.

scath

Myxomatosis wrote: »

Most decent DVB-T USB stick / PCI card manufacturers provide MPEG 4 cabable software.

Mine is adstech Mini-Dual TV usb. And that provider's phone number is not working and also no response to my query at their site. I suspect mine hasn't because I couldn't see the MPEG4 HD Ireland or Oireachtas TV trial channels. The shop was selling a more expensive usb which maybe had that software.

I was trying to see about the Electra MPEG4 software from the oireachtas website link but it costs I think!. Can you point me to where I can download it. As after August 4th i'll only be able to hear audio otherwise on it, having to bring it back to the place I bought it 2 months ago.

Myxomatosis

Thier website says the Mini-Dual is "HD Ready"
http://www.adstech.com/products/PTV-339-EFS/bundledsoftwares/PTV-339_bundle.asp?pid=PTV-339-EFS

Are you sure you have an MPEG4 / H.264 codec installed on your computer?

Psygnosis

download coreavc I think you can get a trial this will display it for you, also I think the latest ffdshow can to mpeg4 as well.

Anyone got this working with Vista Media Centre. Thinking of getting a dual sat card for mine and a dual dvb-t stick as well.

Also anyone in Rush able to pick up the trial

scath

I wouldn't think I have.So i found some in freecodec.com and ffdshowdraw. I'm downloading again from that site also. Using XP now and the produce works better with xp than vista, probalby due to RAM requirements I suppose.

Gonna also look for the other one suggested. Thanks guys. I'll let ye know how it works. Is there such a thing as a DVB-S2 usb stick I wonder with mini-satellite? Now wouldn't that be a real threat to DTT if it were available, mind, ya mightn't be able to pick up so many satelittle channels but could get some...does it exist yet?

Myxomatosis wrote: »

Thier website says the Mini-Dual is "HD Ready"
http://www.adstech.com/products/PTV-339-EFS/bundledsoftwares/PTV-339_bundle.asp?pid=PTV-339-EFS

Are you sure you have an MPEG4 / H.264 codec installed on your computer?

Myxomatosis

There are USB DVB-S/2 sticks available but the size of the dish required will depend on where you live.

If personally find CoreAVC pretty crap, bad performance even with a X2 5600+. The fact that it does not support hardware acceleration is a bit silly.

I find CyberLink PowerDVD MPEG2 and MPEG4 codecs are very good. Very smooth playback, not resource hogging.

Edit:
Actually, you may be able to get the CyberLink h.264 codec for free in the twinhan digitaltv software - just ignore the "no supported hardware found" dialog.
http://www.twinhan.com/download_driver&software.asp

scath

O right...I'd be interested in getting one of those! Y'know if Sky started retailing those here, it could mess up things for the DTT consortium especially with RTÉ International providing a tailored service on Freesat. I must look to see where ya can buy them. I suppose a mini-satellite dish would be the thing. Are there different sized mini-dishes?And would they be any bigger than an aerial? Cost might be the issue. But it'd be very handy, getting all those channels like the UK ones free on the laptop/usb. I see Sky are promoting their Internet version of channels as an option. Just downloaded Firefox 3. It looks nice.

I'm not familiar with the manipulation ie where to put the downloaded files etc. The ffloader thing I downloaded, I was looking at the MPEG location but didn't know what to do after extraction. Any advice on the processes after download, let me know. The audio is working but I assume unless I sort it that come August 4th, I'll not be able to see anything otherwise Cheers!

Myxomatosis wrote: »

There are USB DVB-S/2 sticks available but the size of the dish required will depend on where you live.

If personally find CoreAVC pretty crap, bad performance even with a X2 5600+. The fact that it does not support hardware acceleration is a bit silly.

I find CyberLink PowerDVD MPEG2 and MPEG4 codecs are very good. Very smooth playback, not resource hogging.

Edit:
Actually, you may be able to get the CyberLink h.264 codec for free in the twinhan digitaltv software - just ignore the "no supported hardware found" dialog.
http://www.twinhan.com/download_driver&software.asp

BowWow

RTE to start MPEG-4 Broadcasts from 4th August 2008.
Hot off the presses from the Department of Communcations, Energy & Natural Resources;

Quote:
"The (DTT) trial is concluding at midnight on 31st July next. RTE has indicated that they plan to upgrade the trial network at Three Rock and Clermont Carn over that weekend and to recommence broadcasts of the Irish television channels from August 4th 2008 using MPEG 4 compression technology. RTE will use this network to test DTT services. The nature of the RTE testing has not been confirmed and may be subject to interruption but it should enable you to continue to receive RTE channels via your DTT set-top box."
The DTT trial is dead, long live the new, improved DTT trial!!!
taung is offline Report Post

I too received this by email today, also says I can keep the box as a thank you for partaking in the trial.
Reply With Quote

soupman

STB... If you're slagging off a company for giving out disinformation can you make sure you get the right company. Its not anyone from The Laptop Shop that made a comment. The Laptop Shop aren't in Aungier Street... they're in Stephens Green S.C. Its Back from the Future who are in Aungier Street... probably them who are referred to... you're not exactly 100% with your own information there??

galtee boy

BowWow wrote: »

RTE to start MPEG-4 Broadcasts from 4th August 2008.
Hot off the presses from the Department of Communcations, Energy & Natural Resources;

Quote:
"The (DTT) trial is concluding at midnight on 31st July next. RTE has indicated that they plan to upgrade the trial network at Three Rock and Clermont Carn over that weekend and to recommence broadcasts of the Irish television channels from August 4th 2008 using MPEG 4 compression technology. RTE will use this network to test DTT services. The nature of the RTE testing has not been confirmed and may be subject to interruption but it should enable you to continue to receive RTE channels via your DTT set-top box."
The DTT trial is dead, long live the new, improved DTT trial!!!
taung is offline Report Post

I too received this by email today, also says I can keep the box as a thank you for partaking in the trial.
Reply With Quote

Presumably, this means Freeview boxes from the UK are useless after Aug 4th ? and the tests from Woodcock Hill & Spur Hill, due to start soon, will be in Mpeg 4 also ? With Ireland being such a small market, Mpeg 4 STB's will be much more expensive than their Mpeg 2 counterparts in the UK.

scath

Yip, soupman has it right, was back from the future I heard it. I got impression trial was to continue til end of year but obviously not..but something will continue. I think its nice of them to let all keep the box. Anyone with suggestions how to upgrade usb TV software for MPEG4. I have ffshow downloaded and didn't get Taung software to work as it couldn't find the hardware. What manipulation has to be done? Dunno anything about encoding/decoding. I have Intervideo DVD installed but player not working.Dunno whether to bring stick back or get it working. :-o thanks guys and soupman, cheers.

soupman wrote: »

STB... If you're slagging off a company for giving out disinformation can you make sure you get the right company. Its not anyone from The Laptop Shop that made a comment. The Laptop Shop aren't in Aungier Street... they're in Stephens Green S.C. Its Back from the Future who are in Aungier Street... probably them who are referred to... you're not exactly 100% with your own information there??

lawhec

who is this wrote: »

Exactly. Who pays for RTÉ's construction costs for this? Licence payers. Are viewers in NI paying it. Nope. So, I'm not suggesting we block them out intentionally, but I see no reason we should hold back until Freeview switches to MPEG4, just for their sake.

But anyway, if I'm not mistaken, our terrestrial services aren't supposed to overspill to provide RTÉ. I heard somewhere that after analogue shutdown in NI, RTÉ will be carried on Freeview. Hopefully with NI-targeted ads (that way at least we won't just be paying for it entirely)

Making our whole DTT service available there could be costly to private channels who would then have to buy rights for all of Ireland while getting ad-revenue for only RoI (since the ads would be targeted at RoI).

1. There's no practical way for N.Irish viewers to pay the the RoI Licence Fee, the same way there's no practical way for viewers in the Republic to pay the UK Licence fee for watching BBC services via terrestrial or satellite.

2. Since its inception as Raidio Éireann, RTÉ has always sought to provide itself as an All-Ireland public broadcaster going as far as is technically feasible to provide its services into Northern Ireland. Three of its main TV/FM transmitter sites lie within 10 miles of the border while at least another four of its transmission sites can also be picked up in the north so its always targeted all 32 counties where practical.

3. The only proposal for any channel from the Republic to be carried on the DTT platform in Northern Ireland is TG4 on the PSB3 multiplex in a space similar to that looking to be assigned to S4C in Wales and TeleG in Scotland. TG4 is already transmitted in analogue in Belfast so programme rights problems should be minimal.

4. The chances of a full RoI DTT service being broadcast from sites within N.Ireland are between slim and none. It could however be practical to buy programme rights on an All-Ireland basis if the broadcaster felt this would be profitable to do so. After all UTV depend on their penetration into the Irish Republic to bring in revenue so there's nothing to say that it can't work the other way around.

lawhec

tdlynch wrote: »

This quote puzzles me. The Irish broadcasters do not have the right to transmit to the North: UTV can't be happy with RTE broadcasting the Champions League when they've paid for the rights.

I wonder if this is the motivation behind the MPEG-4 over MPEG-2 decision (or indeed the VHF over UHF decision many moons ago)...

And the authority chairman should know better!

UTV can hardly be in a position to complain about RTÉ coverage of Champions League soccer when they depend so much on the Irish Republic audience for revenue for their TV channel themselves. You could bet that if UTV were taken off all UPC platforms overnight UTV (or at least their Channel 3 TV licence for Northern Ireland) would be sold off sooner rather than later.

The decision for MPEG-4 over MPEG-2 is an inconvenience but not a total block out and Watty is right - the solution is simply to buy a compatible receiver (though this would be a genuine annoyance for those with built-in DVB-T receivers with MPEG-2 only and for those with subscriptions for Top-Up TV or Setanta). In many parts of Tyrone and Fermanagh the Truskmore TX is the only RTÉ transmitter that provides decent coverage and in the past most shops locally selling televisions that had a VHF tuner ensured to promote this as such by marking them as "RTE compatible" or "Dual Band receiver" when many TVs sold up here were UHF only and therefore couldn't pick up RTÉ 1 and 2 without a frequency shifter. The same I'm sure will, at least for a short while, apply to DVB-T receivers sold across N.Ireland as well, though as there are plans to transmit HD programmes on Freeview from next year, set top boxes with DVB-T2 & MPEG-4 Part 10 compatibility will I'm sure come across here sooner rather than later making the technical differences being kept for the short term. No doubt we'll end up seeing some gob****e northern politican demanding that RTÉ continue broadcasting in MPEG-2 for northern viewers (similar to demands made when RTÉ Radio 1 was shut down on Medium Wave earlier this year) but that shouldn't stop RTÉ and other broadcasters from carrying on making more advanced technical decisions that the rest of the world are now planning to carry out (New Zealand's terrestrial Freeview service also calls for receivers with MPEG-4 and MHEG-5 which will launch in November) for the sake of some dinosaurs. The cost of an MPEG-4 DVB-T receiver should in future match that of the current MPEG-2 receivers in the UK, the question is not if but when.

reslfj

lawhec wrote: »

The decision for MPEG-4 over MPEG-2 is an inconvenience but not a total block out and Watty is right - the solution is simply to buy a compatible receiver ... The cost of an MPEG-4 DVB-T receiver should in future match that of the current MPEG-2 receivers in the UK, the question is not if but when.

It seems to me, to be nothing but madness to buy anything else than DVB-T2/MPEG-4 HD receivers in the regions where both UK and Irish TV can be received via DTT.

The UK will change PSB-3 to DVB-T2/MPEG-4 from November 2009 and later DSO's.
In addition Ofcom will try to find free channels to be able to broadcast the PSB-3 signal in pre-DSO areas. 3.7 million households in London may get it 2 years ahead of the London DSO in 2012 i.e. from spring/summer 2010.


Lars

lawhec

reslfj wrote: »

It seems to me, to be nothing but madness to buy anything else than DVB-T2/MPEG-4 HD receivers in the regions where both UK and Irish TV can be received via DTT.

The UK will change PSB-3 to DVB-T2/MPEG-4 from November 2009 and later DSO's.
In addition Ofcom will try to find free channels to be able to broadcast the PSB-3 signal in pre-DSO areas. 3.7 million households in London may get it 2 years ahead of the London DSO in 2012 i.e. from spring/summer 2010.


Lars

The only problem is right now where can one buy a DVB-T2/MPEG-4 receiver?

Those happy enough with the current DVB-T UK services will still continue to get these now for at least another several years. With a basic STB its easy - getting 3-4 years out of a £20 piece of equipment is nothing to complain about and can be easily switched when the time comes (though the point about electronic waste is perfectly valid). Those with HDD recorders however can feel a little more peeved off.

reslfj

lawhec wrote: »

The only problem is right now where can one buy a DVB-T2/MPEG-4 receiver?

Nowhere - yet. But 'festina lente' or maybe just patience - my friend - patience.

Lars

Myxomatosis

scath wrote: »

Anyone with suggestions how to upgrade usb TV software for MPEG4. I have ffshow downloaded and didn't get Taung software to work as it couldn't find the hardware.

Download and install the latest trial version of CyberLink Power DVD. After that is installed, try watch the HD channel with your TV stick. If it does not work, look in the settings / options for the TV stick software and see if it will requires you to select your preferred codecs. The CyberLink H.264 / AVC / Mpeg4 codec should appear as an option, so just select it and then try the HD channel.


On the topic of an MPEG4 STB, I think those and only those who pay a license fee should receive a free, or dramatically reduced in price box.

Mayo Exile

Whoever wins the contract for DTT here will launch it in the DVB-T/MPEG-4 format sometime next year? Yes?

Down the road could they switch to DVB-T2/MPEG-4? This will cause chaos will it not?

reslfj

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Whoever wins the contract for DTT here will launch it in the DVB-T/MPEG-4 format sometime next year? Yes?

This is the current thinking! - I just doubt the sanity of same thinking.

Mayo Exile wrote:

Down the road could they switch to DVB-T2/MPEG-4? This will cause chaos will it not?

Ofcom decided against this, as they found it to be very much more expensive to Freeview viewers. The extra cost buying two new boxes and the mixed message to viewers.

Lars

If Ireland can wait one year on DTT, it can surely wait 15-18 months, too.

Mayo Exile

Could it be DVB-T/MPEG-4 for the moment then, if going by the T-2 document over at dvb.org?

Link: http://www.dvb.org/technology/dvbt2/index.xml

From T-2: This means that DVB-T2 should not, in the short to medium term, be considered for the launch of free-to-air multichannel standard definition services targeted at migrating a general population from analogue to digital. DVB-T is ideal for these purposes.

Relevant to here?

Products that implement the DVB-T2 standard are not likely to become widely available until 2010.

Will whoever wins the bid wait till then? Could the worsening economic situation slow it till then anyway?

reslfj

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Could it be DVB-T/MPEG-4 for the moment then, if going by the T-2 document over at dvb.org?

Link: http://www.dvb.org/technology/dvbt2/index.xml

From T-2: This means that DVB-T2 should not, in the short to medium term, be considered for the launch of free-to-air multichannel standard definition services targeted at migrating a general population from analogue to digital. DVB-T is ideal for these purposes.

Relevant to here?

In no way. This is nothing but marketing prose. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

There is nothing ideal about DVB-T - except the timing.

Oh. one thing - a poor developing country where money is counted in Cents and not in Euros - the lowest cost DVB-T STB may be a little less expensive.

Hardly relevant for Ireland, I should think.

Mayo Exile wrote:

dvb.org wrote:

Products that implement the DVB-T2 standard are not likely to become widely available until 2010.

Will whoever wins the bid wait till then? Could the worsening economic situation slow it till then anyway?

But 2010 is just 17 months and 21 days from today. Where do you spot a problem ?.

DVB-T2/MPEG-4 HD receivers will be in the shops - before Christmas 2009 - simple market logic.

Lars


"There are fears that countries that have not yet launched DTT services using the DVB-T standard may choose to wait until DVB-T2 products become available. Doing so, however, will lead to a delay in the launch of DTT services and postpone the switch-off analogue services for a corresponding period. " /TNT.net/forum Mar 2008

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by reslfj: money is counted in Cents and not in Euros

Oh yeah? This is Ireland after all!

DVB-T2/MPEG-4 HD receivers will be in the shops - before Christmas 2009

But at what price? Attractive to early adopters or everybody else? Depending on what size TV people have, will they want a HD receiver when SD will do?

If the bid winner sticks to the plan and launches in the middle of next year, will they not go with DVB-T/MPEG-4 anyway as DVB T-2 equipment will not be commercially available?

reslfj

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Oh yeah? This is Ireland after all!

:mad:

Mayo Exile wrote:

But at what price? Attractive to early adopters or everybody else? Depending on what size TV people have, will they want a HD receiver when SD will do?

Everybody -There will a 5 million household market from day one - in the UK. There will be fully tested models on the market.

More than one chip vendors will make the DVB-T2 chips, maybe 5-10 - the MPEG-4 chip is unchanged - and not all will fail - likely none will - but for sure not all 5 or 10.

Even viewers with small TV's may like to receive the channels - the UK channels, at least, will not be simulcast.

If the bid winner sticks to the plan and launches in the middle of next year, will they not go with DVB-T/MPEG-4 anyway as DVB T-2 equipment will not be commercially available?

Sure - I have just put a questionmark with 'the sanity' of this. :P

Lars

Mayo Exile

:mad:

Not meant to be an annoying comment! Alot of people do think of cents, before euros if their circumstances aren't great, no matter what they may buy.

reslfj: not disagreeing with you about about DVB T-2 receivers themselves. I AM for the best technology if it can be distributed smoothly. If the cost and availability issues (plus the platform itself is stable) are handled ok its fine. Look at Freesat at the moment: cost ok, availability not = unhappy people!

If the UK does adopt this standard, we should go with it too. Its great for everybody wanting to buy into DTT, same standards etc.

I have just put a questionmark with 'the sanity'

Agreed. But will the bid winner hold back and see what happens in the UK, or are they forced to launch under the terms of whatever contract they sign, next year? If they have to go, wouldnt it be DVB-T/MPEG4 they'd have to use?

reslfj

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Not meant to be an annoying comment! Alot of people do think of cents, before euros if their circumstances aren't great, no matter what they may buy.

But nobody in Ireland has any problems with a few €'s in 2009 or 2010.
There will likely be a little higher patent license to pay. But compared to
the benefit of using the better standard - it will not be significant.

Look at Freesat at the moment: cost ok, availability not = unhappy people!

That is - IFAIK - a production planning problem.

If the UK does adopt this standard, we should go with it too. ...

The UK has adapted the standard - DVB-T2 will be used to broadcast 3 HD channels on PSB-3 ( the present MUX-B) from November 2009 at DSO Granada ( Manchester/leverpool region).

Shortly thereafter in Wales, Border,Devon/Cornwall, too. Then following the UK DSO schedule.

In addition Ofcom is looking for free channels to provide the PSB-3 HD multiplex ahead of DSO in other regions - e.g from the summer of 2010.

Have a look at digitalspy or the ofcom.org.uk page.

Lars

Mayo Exile

The UK has adapted the standard - DVB-T2 will be used to broadcast 3 HD channels on PSB-3 ( the present MUX-B) from November 2009 at DSO Granada ( Manchester/leverpool region).

Sorry. Did not know this. Thought it was still up in the air.

How WILL DTT do in RoI though? Sky and Freesat are available, plus cable in many urban areas. Freesat very handy if all you want are the FTA UK channels along with teletext and interactive stuff.

My own desired setup would DTT (FTA) for RTE/TV3 etc. with Freesat for UK channels.

roverdublin

scath wrote: »

stb... an advisory note on DVB-T usb sticks would be in order also. They are for sale but will have a problem in August on.Does anyone know what software and how to modify to view in MPEG 4.

I have a Pinnacle 320e and a Pinnacle 330e DVB-T stick and since June the new Version of PCTV TV Centre Pro 4.98 is working nicely with MPEG4 HDTV H.264.

The HD Ireland Channel is a treat.

scath

I tried that aswell. I think the problem I have is changing the settings is disabled. I don't know why that is. I think that adstech company most not be operating anymore maybe. Thanks DublinRover re the pinacle usb stick. Maybe I'll have to buy that. So I may have to bring it back to the shop in stephen's green then & get tem to order that. I wonder if its possible to upgrade the software using cat 5 cable on the box as there is an upgrade software option. Is MHEG 5 Engine hardware in the box? If it is then I suppose we won't have EPGs. If yes then we can upgrade the software.

I can hear HD Ireland but not see it.

Myxomatosis wrote: »

Download and install the latest trial version of CyberLink Power DVD. After that is installed, try watch the HD channel with your TV stick. If it does not work, look in the settings / options for the TV stick software and see if it will requires you to select your preferred codecs. The CyberLink H.264 / AVC / Mpeg4 codec should appear as an option, so just select it and then try the HD channel.


On the topic of an MPEG4 STB, I think those and only those who pay a license fee should receive a free, or dramatically reduced in price box.