Final table situation, player requests other players to move around?

Lplated

The extent of replies to this thread reminds me somewhat of silly season in the newspapers during August. However... (and I'm assuming that OP is not levelling).

I haven't played in the venue being discussed, so am n't familiar with the table markings, if any, but from most other venues that I have played in, I notice that there aren't particular markings on the table to indicate the position of a particular seat. Rather, seat position is dictated by necessity, i.e. to get nine players and 1 dealer around a particular table.

If that is the case in the SE, i.e. no table markings, would it not be right to suggest that placing at the table should be dictated by the number of people around the table -i.e. at a 10 person table, seat 1 is beside the dealer, but when down to 5 people, seat 1 while still beside the dealer, now potentially occupies more space, in effect the spread of the table he could (and should?) occupy expands to include what would have been his space and the space next to him.

If the above suggestion holds up, then OP is wrong to refuse to move, and TD should have insisted he do so or penalised him for refusal.

I would add here that I understood the idea of a draw for seats at the beginning of a FT to be for the purposes of fairly deciding who gets the button first and how play is to proceed once the FT has commenced.

I wonder if the OP had asked his question in another manner would he have got different responses. Specifically, if the question was - Do I have to (or should I) co-operate with a reasonable request from another player, the co-operation with which may give him an increased advantage and may give me a disadvantage?

I admit my bias is apparent in the question as posed, I think it was a reasonable request and that refusal was unreasonable.

But looking at the question from a more general point of view I don't think, from a purely poker rather than courtesy perspective, that there is a reason why you should voluntarily give an advantage. Yes, it is a game (which we may like to fancy could be recognised as a sport someday). In turn that requires a certain standard of behaviour in order to be sportsmanlike. No, this isn't the WSOP final table. Aside from those qualifications, are we really obliged to assist another player to improve his game?

If we are so obliged then are those, including myself, who think OP should have moved regardless of whether he has to or not, guilty of a double standard? Why do we not refuse to play with a drunk in a cash game? (I appreciate a difference between tournament and cash, but for purposes of argument, lets take it all as the 'game of poker' meta). If we see someone about to call a big blind next to us and realise that that person hasn't spotted that someone has raised before him, are we obliged to tell them?

My rather long winded point is this - OP doesn't want to move for what seems to be a combination of reasons (he'll be less comfortable, the requestor will be more comfortable, and the manner of the request may not have been in accordance with Mrs. Mills guide to etiquette for young ladies).

OP has been well slated for his refusal. But. We all play poker. We play to win chips/cash. When there are situations that we are in where we could do something to lessen/increase the dis/advantage of a competitor, do we, or should we, do it/them?

As noted at the outset, I think that unless a table has particular markings, then there is no such thing as 'seat 4' per se, just a position or spread occupied by the first, second etc player from the dealer. That aside, leaving behind the musical chairs issue, if this is a question about the assistance one is obliged to give fellow competitors, then I think OP may have a very good point.

BrokenArrows

Personally if i felt i had an advantage in a certain seat then there is no way in hell id move. Whether it be more comfort or being able to see another player better.
Why put yourself off your game and make the others more comfortable.

Ive moved plenty of times to accomodate the table because at the time it didnt make any difference to me but there have been times where if the question had been asked i would not have moved.

kebabfest

Big City Banker oh dont you cry for me,
It's time to take your seat,
Thats plain for all to see,
You use every thread to say
oh COME and LOOK at me..

jbravado

smurph wrote:

And now i have just noticed Phantom Lords Sig, so in fairness children i'll leave you at it.

I know Noel and think he should have moved-imo it was rude-fair enough.

Shane-I think this is TOTALLY out of line though-pretty suprised tbh.

Fwiw I have never found Bcb to be unpleasant on any level in this forum-I do however think there is a condascending nastiness (the two plus two effect) running through some of the better and succesful posters replies which is a pity as their advice would be nice to hear and certainly beneficial.

Hitman Actual

BrokenArrows wrote:

but there have been times where if the question had been asked i would not have moved.

What conditions are you talking about?

I can't believe this thread is still going. It was answered in the first few replies. Not making space (when the option is available) to allow seat 1 or 9 to have a clear view of the table is petty bad manners. To give a general sports field analogy, it's similar to refusing an opposing player a drink out of your teams' water bottles in a hurling/football match, imo. Petty.

Edit: FWIW, I do think that some of the replies to BCB have been harsh and undeserved, though. He has been a very good contributor here since he joined.

Fatboydim

jbravado wrote:

I do however think there is a condascending nastiness (the two plus two effect) running through some of the better and succesful posters replies which is a pity as their advice would be nice to hear and certainly beneficial.

Yes I've noticed this... and if it makes it to the tables [that kind of attitude] then I think poker in Ireland would be poorer for it. Fot the size of island we have the poker scene is vibrant and busy. That is for the most part because wherever you go in the country be it the Cue Club in Killarney, The Eglington in Galway, The Adelaide in Sligo or any of the Dublin casinos you are made to feel welcome.

There are places I've played in the UK where the atmosphere has been 2+2ish and I would be reluctant to play those places again.

5pin5

noel if it was me who asked and you said no i would go on tilt and call you with any 2 cards .and no your ni the big bad boggy man

Moneymaker

Wow, this thread has been entertaining.

Also, no comment as i'm not getting involved. Kudos to phantom_lord and his sig though.

myflipflops

Theresalwaysone wrote:

He was technically within his rights not to move. The right ettiquette would have been to move but we are all guilty of not being completely mannerely at some stage.

This is a reasonable response. If it's within the rules then he has done nothing improper.
Would i have moved? Yes.
If i was at the table would would i have thought his behaviour extreme? Yes.
Are his actions the worst thing in the world (or even the worst thing at a poker table)? Not by a long way.

I'm not defending his actions, simply his right to do it as it's within the laws of the game.
A bit of perspective is needed.

PS: Mods, i think this thread deserves its place alongside Gholimoli and Bops in hte legendary threads section.

RasTa

lol @ not getting involed

^

kincsem

5pin5 wrote:

noel if it was me who asked and you said no i would go on tilt and call you with any 2 cards .and no your ni the big bad boggy man

You would go on tilt and play two big cards for a change.

mickste

Sam you make a very good point. Anybody that has played with Noel, knows he is a gentleman at the tables. These attacks by some posters because they don't like his posting style is childish. Are you really that upset by something so trivial, that you have to use such derogatory terms.

Pl, get over Noel's sig. It's a direct quote from you, If you want him to take it down, ask him. Now you reply by calling him a wanker in your sig. I think the mods should be using more of an iron glove in relation to some of these replies. Bans have been given out for a lot less.

BigCityBanker

5pin5 wrote:

noel if it was me who asked and you said no i would go on tilt and call you with any 2 cards .and no your ni the big bad boggy man

Mods can we get him banned for this ffs? He be calling with any two cards regardless. He would be just looking for an excuse.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

mewso

Why lock a perfectly good thread? We are learning so much about posters here. Some of them should stick to posting in the comments section of imdb.com (if you are familiar with that standard). People seem completely unable to have a discussion using words that require the changing of a letter to a different position.

I think as has been said that if I had such a strong feeling for a seat position then top priority for me would be to get this blatant weakness out of my game. Noel if you did this with the aim to put a player on tilt then while I might disagree I would see the reason in it. After all I dislike TonyG's antics but there is value in it.

Reactions have been a bit OTT though. You disagree with what was done. Fine. Move on.

coillcam

Lock this threads plz mods it is very low on poker content.

As for for BCB the personal abuse he is getting is unwarranted. I think he knows most people consider it bad etiquette by now, give him a break FFS, he posted the thread because he wasn't sure.

I'm sure most of us have acted unwittingly (I have more than once) at the green baize like pure douchebags, it happens get over it.

ditpoker

booo @ lloyd

5starpool

Moneymaker wrote:

Wow, this thread has been entertaining.

Also, no comment as i'm not getting involved. Kudos to phantom_lord and his sig though.

Be careful what you agree to. This is skirting the issue very closely. PL has been asked to change his sig, and once he comes online after his slumber I would hope he will. Copycats might not be asked.

Chucky the tree

Cant believe people want this thread locked, what a dull bunch.


Whats sig did you have DIT? Or did you just put that in for the laugh?

Moneymaker

I should remind people that the internet is serious business. Very serious indeed.

sikes

bops

lol!! ^^

it's about time we had an interesting thread - talking about poker hands is fairly boring anyways

Lafortezza

Back on topic plz.

I still don't understand why BCB wouldn't just move his seat around a bit instead of refusing to budge.
The reason given of liking the angle to the table for tells etc doesn't wash since the seat 6 position is the same and the seat 5 (opposite the dealer) is also essentially the same.

DeVore

a147pro wrote:

Originally Posted by DeVore
I'd have moved even though I too prefer 2/3 and 7/8 as seats. The loss of EV from the move is small enough that it doesnt exceed my desire to be a nice guy when I can.

DeV.

"Devore's final thought".

You're like a benevolent uncle.

Sorry, was trying to find a way of posting that without sounding sappy. Daithio put it better then I did.

Its quite definitely true that BCB would give up equity by moving. That equity has a value.

Being a "nice guy" as best I can has a value to me too. Not because I want other people to think that (I do, like any human, but thats not the main point). I want to feel that I've at least done my bit to make the world a nicer place to live in (ok, we're back to the sappy sounding stuff again).
That too has a value for me.

A < B

I'm not saying I'm an angel, if someone told me I'd get 1 million for NOT moving, I probably wouldnt budge!

Each person has a value they put on being "the good guy". Some people its 0 but thats just trivial case.
Daithio put it pretty well and believe me we are heading that way with some of the younger newer players acting like know it all pricks on the tables.


Finally, people are not generally allowed to harrass other users in their sigs and I'll frown on it shortly if its not adjusted.

DeV.

phantom_lord

BigCityBanker wrote:

Thirdly - PL has not asked me to remove my signature, he did ask why I still had it? But did not ask me to remove it. Personally I have no issue with whatever PL chooses to put in his sig - its his business and I have no intention of swaying him from his preferences.

will u remove u sig so?

DeVore

I recommend you both remove them.

DeV.

BigCityBanker

phantom_lord wrote:

will u remove u sig so?

not a problem.

Ste05

Group hug???

smurph

Ste05 wrote:

Group hug???

Actually I was going to post something like that, I feel that Poker Kharma has been restored.

lol VDTournaments......

Mr.Plough

Ste05 wrote:

fyp