Shannon-Heathrow discussion [merged]

cancan

So why the wailing if this is true?

Because of the lag in introducing a new carrier introduces uncertainly, and you can run a business on contingency plans – this could have been handled a hell of a lot better. Not telling your shareholders of your plans smacks of ineptitude on the governments part, and hiding facts on aerlingus’ part.

Shannon 2006: 3.7m PAX,
Dublin 2006: 21.1m PAX.
Money talks, BS walks.

God – the population of Dublin is bigger than limerick – did you work that out all by yourself?

Dublin's growth has far outstripped the regions and continues to do so with Louth, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow all bursting with poxy housing estates to supply workers to the city. The West is not being chosen as a location for high-value industry because of the lack of population and the tendency for skilled workers to locate in Dublin.

Given a choice, people would prefer to live in the west – the fact that Dublin has been granted more money to create more jobs, just forces many to live there against their better judgement

OTK

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Bit of a chicken and egg argument there OTK, skilled workers end up in Dublin because there isn't investment in the regions, not becuase they desperately want to live in Dublin.

Yes, there is a positive feedback effect where once a town starts to attract population and jobs, this can lead to more population and more jobs. Difficult to counter without a concentration of resources aimed squarely at a small number of towns. Of course people would prefer not to pay silly money for crap housing outside Dublin just to get a decent job.

cancan wrote:

Given a choice, people would prefer to live in the west – the fact that Dublin has been granted more money to create more jobs, just forces many to live there against their better judgement

The West has a lot to offer that Dublin doesn't in terms of quality of life. I'm not sure it's fair to say that Dublin has been granted more money but it certainly has attracted more commercial investment. People earn more, and more taxes are collected and some of this surplus is distributed to the regions.

ninty9er

Like it or not OTK, if 20000+ jobs in dublin were put under the threat of even the slightest kind, there'd be uproar in Kildare, Dublin, Meath, Louth and Wicklow.

We're just as entitled to whinge as any other region. The Shannon airport facilities are excellent, but when thousands of jobs are under threat because of this decision by Aer Lingus. At this stage I'd tell EI to fu<k themselves if another carrier can get a landing plate at Heathrow. EI currently own 3 or 4 and are leasing another 3 for no apparent reason.

I see this as a major opportunity for a company like Aer Arann. Any bank would be mad not to give them the capital needed

cancan

Two quotes from the independent for your reading pleasure.

was recently in Belfast and it is turning into a very attractive
city. It seems to be much better planned than any city down here. There are high rise buildings
going up all over the city and even already it looks like a city that will take off
big time, which is why Aer Lingus, Ikea, Asda and just about every other name are opening for business there. Compare it to Limerick which is an absolute filthy kip and you get the idea. You ca'nt even get a Starbucks there for God's sake and they expect American people to invest in it! I think our home grown investors are fed up with the Republic , if you try to build anything higher than five stories here there are opbjectors all over the gaffe claiming they're skyscrapers!, or that they're blocking the light from their pebble dashed semi d.

Oh the poor culchies loose some jobs, I have zero sympathy for them , they want all the goodies and never say a word when thousands of jobs are lost in Dublin, nor will they let anyone develop their beautiful scenery , they would not even allow a visitor center at mullaghmore,and are fighting the Bp terminal , Nor will they let anyone except culchies build homes over that side of the country, or if they do on the odd occasion they rip off the outsiders.

they are getting what they deserve,

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shannon-thousands-of-jobs-now-facing-axe-1054151.html#comments

Brains do seem to be in short supply at the moment.


Lets hope the dubs will have no problem paying the unemployment benefits that narrow minded decisions like this bring.

cancan

cancan wrote:

Two quotes from the independent for your reading pleasure.






http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shannon-thousands-of-jobs-now-facing-axe-1054151.html#comments

Brains do seem to be in short supply at the moment.


Lets hope the dubs will have no problem paying the unemployment benefits that narrow minded decisions like this bring.

LoL at that comment in the paper.
Most UK chains have been in Belfast for decades and right throughout the troubles...(though IKEA weren't but they're newish to these islands and are a bad example for the flawed point being made there)
It's actually in the Republic that they are newly expanding.

ninty9er

I enjoy the odd laugh at the Indo, but that's not laughable!!

I suppose the author of said piece doesn't know how us culchies don't commit...OOPS!!

Anyhow, Limerick is a high rise city. Sarsfield House (even if it is an eyesore), Riverpoint, Jurys, Clarion. Obviously the culchivator hasn't been in Limerick recently, but then again why would he bother...it's a kip of course:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I suppose Waterford is just as bad and that Cork is falling down, not to mention Galway...oh the poor people who are disenfranchised for being Galwegians. All hail the pale:mad: :mad: :mad:

Liam Byrne

Amazotheamazing wrote:

I meant when it came time to renegiotiate the deal Liam.

Sorry Amazo - didn't mean to imply that I was laughing at your post (i.e. I said "when I read about this", not "when I read this")

What I meant was that if reports about Aer Lingus doing this in a stroppy fit are indeed true, then it is laughable.

Sorry if it came across otherwise.

Liam Byrne

cancan wrote:

funny thing is most of the anti us/shannon stance comes from people making their money from us multinationals.

They should remember who butters their bread at the end of the day, before paying lip service to their "beliefs"

There's an assumption in there that an American company will (a) think that George W is doing the right thing, and support that, and (b) look down on anyone who disagrees.

Given that at least half of American people are anti-Bush and anti-war, that's an assumption that's AT LEAST 50% out, and that's on part (a) alone.

It'd be like me moving my company away from an area because someone from that area pointed out that Bertie Ahern could possibly be corrupt. :eek:

If it's true, say it; there's even a chance you'll be respected for it.

I do find it hilarious that Dublin wants a second terminal for no logical reason; at the moment, there are numerous terminals around the country underutilised and thousands of people who have no choice but to drive to Dublin to get a flight abroad.....why not save the money from the terminal and give people the chance to fly from their own regions ? Sounds like a win-win to me, except the Dubs don't want to be seen as second-rate with most capital cities having more than one terminal, or even more than one airport.

Still, what Dublin wants, Dublin gets......the point about all the roads and rail is blatantly obviously true, but no-one seems to care.....

Metro to Dublin Airport costing millions, while the budget for the Mayo-Galway-Limerick rail link and even the Limerick-Shannon metro link gets shafted yet again.

One of these days the east of the country will sink due to the sheer weight of its own self-serving indulgence.......

OTK wrote:

The West is not being chosen as a location for high-value industry because of the lack of population and the tendency for skilled workers to locate in Dublin.

Thanks for the implied insult that I'm not one of the skilled workers! You're talking chicken-and-egg here; if there is no or sub-standard infrastructure or access, the companies won't locate in the west, so people are forced to move to where the jobs are.

If the proper infrastructure existed, and you could get around easily, more companies would locate here, and the skilled workers wouldn't have to move.

P.S. There's absolutely no amount of money that would entice me to move to or work in Dublin - been there, done that, thrown away the t-shirt; Cork or Galway, maybe, if I had to, but Limerick is streets ahead for quality of life.....

invincibleirish

1)if its commercially viable why surely another airline will take it up,i recall the minor hullabaloo a few years ago when aer lingus ended cork-dublin flights,of course other airlines stepped into to fill the gap successfully.

2)instead of mobilising every man women and child to defend shannon why not pressurise the SAA and masters the DAA to try and cut a deal with aer lingus,say a reduction in service but still some flights to LHR reduce landing charges etc.it is the free market remember.

before you say ah sure its the DAA they wont help i guess they might coz its their earnings that are taking a hit and its increading dublins competition with belfast,last thing Dublin airport wants is a stronger belfast taking away any potential future aer lingus routes from dublin

3)now for the controversy, with this maybe its time for the powers that be to have a re-think completely about shannon airport full stop,of the 3 major airports it is without question the most troublesome,im not saying that the airport should be shut but we have to remember everything about shannon airport is artificial,military aircraft stopovers,open skies etc. mean shannon always seems to be struggling to be *something*

vkid

the attitude coming from cork on this is shocking. bit of bitterness that when the debt issue came up nobody (Cork's politicians/business people/cork people in general) really made any level of noise over it. Not our fault. Cork people should realise cork could be next and thats the bigger picture here..

invincibleirish

vkid wrote:

Cork people should realise cork could be next and thats the bigger picture here..

yeah and as i saw on the nine o clock news last nite voxpop and have heard mentioned elsewhere that instead of shannon losing its heathrow slots that aer lingus should give some of dublin and corks heathrow slots instead of taking shannons,in the national interest you understand?......pfft......

billy the squid

I saw the nine o clock interview, the politician was tony killeen, he also said on prime time that one of the slots could be taken from shannon, along with the other airports to facilitate belfast, but not all of the shannon slots.

golden

Willie O'Dea is keeping quiet even though it probably not in his remit but he is still a serving TD for Limerick area.

bill_ashmount

billy the squid wrote:

I saw the nine o clock interview, the politician was tony killeen, he also said on prime time that one of the slots could be taken from shannon, along with the other airports to facilitate belfast, but not all of the shannon slots.

The section I saw with him said don't touch Shannon and take it from Cork and Dublin instead, lol. Is he for real????

Arathorn

invincibleirish wrote:

1)if its commercially viable why surely another airline will take it up,i recall the minor hullabaloo a few years ago when aer lingus ended cork-dublin flights,of course other airlines stepped into to fill the gap successfully.

2)instead of mobilising every man women and child to defend shannon why not pressurise the SAA and masters the DAA to try and cut a deal with aer lingus,say a reduction in service but still some flights to LHR reduce landing charges etc.it is the free market remember.

Another airline cant just come and in fill the gap because its the heathrow slots that they are moving and selling, these are like gold dust so no airline will be able to take it over even if they wanted to

hobie

bill_ashmount wrote:

The section I saw with him said don't touch Shannon and take it from Cork and Dublin instead, lol. Is he for real????

I thought I heard him say .....

Take back the two LHR slots that EI have rented out to British Airways- 1 slot ($$$ bless them) and the American Airline Continental - 1 slot (bless them too) .... take one from Shannon and one from Dublin .....

That makes 4 to give to Belfast and everyone will live happily ever after, untill the new runway is built at Heathrow when EI will probably get another 50 slots and give them all to Belfast too !!!! .....

Mind you it could have been another Politician ...... there are a lot of them putting up solutions (well maybe not the ones who have come over to the Mid-west on their Hol's, but certainly lots of the local politico's ....)

ninty9er

invincibleirish wrote:

now for the controversy, with this maybe its time for the powers that be to have a re-think completely about shannon airport full stop,of the 3 major airports it is without question the most troublesome,im not saying that the airport should be shut but we have to remember everything about shannon airport is artificial,military aircraft stopovers,open skies etc. mean shannon always seems to be struggling to be *something*

I have to take issue with this

1) Shannon is the perfect location for an airport. completely open, 2 and a half miles of runway with room for expansion. I could understand if the airport was in the other proposed site close to Limerick City Centre at the time of siting, then expansion would be impossible.

2) DAA should be looking at ways to REDUCE the strain Dublin is under by dealing a few cards to Cork and Shannon.

3) Both Cork and Shannon have new terminals, with huge capacity in Shannon as the old terminal is currently disused.

4) Shannon always seems to be struggling because the board of SAA must be complete idiots not to be running a Heathrow type operation themselves. They have the land, they have the location, the only thing lacking is support and the brains to mastermind a plan that would enable me to get a coff in the terminal building before the restaurant opens

Sponge Bob

Noel Dempsey was on saying he will not interfere with AL .

Dempsey can be overidden by Bertie and by Brian Cowen, only those 2

galwayrush

Looks like the Mid West and West is being sacrificed for the glory of being involved with the Northern Peace Process. Don't get me wrong, we all want peace, but can anyone honestly believe the Goverment didn't know this was going to happen months ago?Their silence is shocking.But feck us over here, the real important stuff is up North.

Liam Byrne

golden wrote:

Willie O'Dea is keeping quiet even though it probably not in his remit but he is still a serving TD for Limerick area.

:eek: You obviously haven't seen Friday's Irish Examiner, so! It's unfortunately no longer on the website, but another story in today's edition requotes him.....

Friday's headline and lead story were, however:

O'Dea: Aer Lingus move on Shannon 'disgraceful'
Minister wants it reversed; TDs call for Dáil recall

DEFENCE Minister Willie O'Dea has described the decision by Aer Lingus to pull its Heathrow route from Shannon as "disgraceful" claiming it "flies in the face of the Government's regional policy".

Breaking ranks with the Government over the growing crisis, Mr O'Dea said he was "aghast" at the decision by Aer Lingus.

Hopefully he's "aghast" enough to quit FF....shower of inept, passive idiots. :mad:

Listening to interviews with Noel Dempsey today nearly made me puke......does he not realise that saying that "Aer Lingus, as a commercial company, has to do what is in the interests of its shareholders" also includes, as some of those shareholders, the Irish Government and the Irish people ? And if the decision does "flies in the face of the .... regional policy [of one of it's major shareholders", how is it "in the interests of its shareholders ?

What a plonker ! :mad:

With Willie and others breaking ranks, will this be the shortest Government in history ? Hopefully......

heyjude

ninty9er wrote:

I have to take issue with this


2) DAA should be looking at ways to REDUCE the strain Dublin is under by dealing a few cards to Cork and Shannon.

Half the population of the country lives in Leinster, a large proportion of those in Dublin and the neignbouring counties, its hard to see how extra flights from Cork or Shannon would thereby reduce the strain on Dublin airport. The best way of relieving the strain on Dublin airport would be another airport in the greater Dublin/Leinster area.

billy the squid

O'Dea is already back peddling

And Aer Lingus are adding a heathrow flight to Cork from April.

bazz26

Liam Byrne wrote:

With Willie and others breaking ranks, will this be the shortest Government in history ? Hopefully......

Willie O'Dea breaking ranks with the Government, I wouldn't hold my breath to be honest. Remember when Haughey closed Barrington's Hospital in the 1980s as part of the health cuts, Willie said it was a disgrace and was out marching with protesters yet toed the party line when required. Also remember the taxi deregulation farce a few years ago.

Imo Willie is only useful if you need a medical card.

golden

I did not see the Irish Examiner, but do think that Willie O'Dea should be alot more vocal. He has no problem being vocal when it comes to election time.

oh well

apart from saying his is "aghast" is Willie O'Dea actually doing anything???? you'd hardly except him to say his is delighted would you. i used to think he was good politician for the area, but you'd have thought he would use his massive pulling power at election time to say something more than "aghast"

Amazotheamazing

Willie O'Dea is a joke. He's a jumped up local councillor only good for dealing with minor matters that should be left to councillors like medical cards etc. Think about it, what big project has he ever got for the city?

Liam Byrne

heyjude wrote:

Half the population of the country lives in Leinster, a large proportion of those in Dublin and the neignbouring counties, its hard to see how extra flights from Cork or Shannon would thereby reduce the strain on Dublin airport. The best way of relieving the strain on Dublin airport would be another airport in the greater Dublin/Leinster area.

Actually, taking into account what you said, the BEST place for an airport would be in the midlands, where it would suit those living in Leinster, be reasonably easily accessed by the rest of the country which no longer has flights, and would cost a lot less given that the land would be cheaper.

But that could be said for lots of things - like sports stadia, concert venues and other facilities, and unfortunately the road and rail network is like spokes of a wheel....

If a company was as badly run and organised as Ireland, the management would be fired years ago.......the people had their chance 2 months ago to do likewise, and what do they do ? :rolleyes:

But having heard that idiot Dempsey repeatedly on the news all day saying that Aer Lingus were acting in the interests of its shareholders is REALLY making my blood boil! WE are Aer Lingus' shareholders (or at least 25% of them).......if this half-arsed decision isn't reversed I will never fly Aer Lingus again!

rebs23

vkid wrote:

the attitude coming from cork on this is shocking. bit of bitterness that when the debt issue came up nobody (Cork's politicians/business people/cork people in general) really made any level of noise over it. Not our fault. Cork people should realise cork could be next and thats the bigger picture here..

The Evening Echo ran an editorial saying that Cork people should be sympathetic to the plight of Shannon on this issue, that Cork could be next and that Cork knows only too well the indifference of the Dublin lobby to the plight of regional development. It was in last Thursdays Echo and the Examiner has also been supportive on the issue.
Of course we also want our airport to compete on level terms with Shannon but do not wish this on anybody and realise their is a bigger picture.

hobie

Aer Lingus was given away for the price of a couple of aircraft (despite the LHR slots alone being worth a half a Billion or more (sterling I stress !!!!)

What were the Mobile phone Licences given away for ? ...... 10 million or was it 20??? ....

Now I wonder what's going to happen when the ESB is sold off ....... :rolleyes:

......and the the Water supplies ......

I wonder if we are going to get screwed again? .....

1huge1

^^ I find it hard to believe that we could get even more screwed when the ESB is sold off, I welcome that day with open arms.