Shannon-Heathrow discussion [merged]

heyjude

ninty9er wrote:

Screw the EU at this stage!! We've benefitted greatly from it, but it should keep it's nose out of internal state matters, just the same as the Cabinet doesn't stick it's nose into the business of City and Co. Councils across the country.

How is it an internal state matter when it is suggested that the government should buy a majority share in Aer Lingus to restore Aer Lingus flights to Heathrow Airport in London? Surely international flights make it an international matter ?

ninty9er wrote:

Quite a significant majority of AL aircraft are in excess of 15 years old and some of the fleet were that age when acquired!!

Profitablilty should be evident in the company's asset inventory rather than the CEO's bonus package

I thought that Aer Lingus had already placed some orders for new aircraft, in which case the need for the government to take them over to do this, is redundant.

Right or wrong, profitability is usually judged by actual profits in most businesses and that is reflected in the CEO's bonus. Imagine if post 911 when various US airlines were verging on bankruptcy, some analyst had suggested that even though airline A had lost $500m in the year, the CEO was entitled to bonuses because the company had a fleet of aircraft worth $20bn :rolleyes:
Its just the way it is. If asset inventory was how you judge the CEO of a company, no decent CEO would manage an airline, for aircraft values decline over time, while bricks and mortar(office buildings etc) appreciate in value. So the CEO of a bank/insurance company/property company would easily see asset value increase each year without much effort, while as an aircraft ages its value falls.

Amazotheamazing

ninty9er wrote:

I was against the sale of AL from the start and now I think it's time for the Cabinet to seriously consider a buyback to 100% This is a company that could easily pay for itself and if it had no shareholders to satisfy could be extremely successful with comfortable modern aircraft, instead of worn out bangers!!

Rant over.

And yet you are the head cheer-leader for Fianna Fail, this was predictable outcome of the sale and one FF overlooked. Now you want FF to spend more taxpayers money buying back shares. Great plan, I can see what FF see in you.

hobie

THere are no slots available to allow anyone else to come in and provide the SNN >LHR service .......

The Irish/UK goverments did a deal many years ago to give BA and EI LHR slots (at no cost) that today I would estimate be worth a half a Billion Euro's, if EI ever decided to give them up ......

After many years of using LHR as a link to most parts of the world I can tell you flying to any other london(ish) airport is going to be a dead loss from the Mid-West point of view ......:mad:

Schuhart

ninty9er wrote:

It is one of only 2 airports in Europe, 11 in the WORLD that can land an Airbus A380.

I hate to be quite such a pain in the arse, but I feel a general problem in Irish political discourse is allowing strange looking propositions to enter debate unchallenged. According to Airbus

The A380 has already visited more than 45 airports. By 2011, more than 70 airports will be ready for A380 operations.

That doesn’t match up to your contention. Can you substantiate what you are saying?

hobie wrote:

THere are no slots available to allow anyone else to come in and provide the SNN >LHR service

This article gives some picture of the trade. If its figure of £15 million for a slot pair is accurate, then presumably the value of the Shannon slots would be of the order of £45 to £60 million – maybe a ballpark of €80 million. You can sort of appreciate why Aer Lingus want to get a decent margin from an asset worth €80 million.

If you don’t have €80 million to hand, the alternative is really just to link to some other hub. LHR really doesn’t have the Holy Grail status that people are giving it. It’s not uncommon to find people, say, travelling to Australia ex Dublin via Manchester or Frankfurt, for the sake of argument.

But maybe you really, really want to be a victim.

Sierra Oscar

vkid wrote:

it would be naive of anyone to think the government have no influence in any matter relating to Aer Lingus.

Indeed - they would have been aware of this before the election I would think.

ninty9er

Schuhart wrote:

That doesn’t match up to your contention. Can you substantiate what you are saying?

Unfortunately, my basis for saying so is more local. an ex-airport employee...perhaps explaining why SNN is going under so fast.

And just so you can all sleep well tonight, supporting a party doesn't mean agreeing with everything it says. For example many in FG don't want to see Irish become an optional school subject, yet it is party policy because the PP say so

beanflick

All the aer lingus staff should sell all there shares to MOL. I for one will never again board a aer dublinus plane

Amazotheamazing

A vote for FF was always a vote against the midwest, they've done nothing for the region while Galway and Cork drown in funding. I expect Wille O'Dea and Peter Invisible Man Power will be out cheering from high heaven that this is the best thing for the region.

hobie

But maybe you really, really want to be a victim.

As someone who's flying history has typically been 100 to 150 flights a year, to most parts of the world, I think I will be the judge of that ...........

parsi

@ninty9er - can you give us more stats on exactly how many planes are "bangers" ?

Seeing as Tony Kileen has a problem maybe he can write one of his famous letters begging for clemency - after all he has written them for somewhat less-deserving causes.......

ninty9er

With an average fleet age of 10 years old for 7 long haul aircraft some of which are fairly new in aricraft terms would lead me to believe that there must be some on the 15 year old side draggin that average up!

short haul is much better on Avg at 3.8 yrs for 35 aircraft, but taking it as a given that Willie Walsh's turnaround involved expansion of fleet for new routes there are also some farily old aircraft on this fleet too.

Long Haul is where it's at for AL now, sidetrack short haul with O'Leary to compete with. I've recently been on one of these "long haul" aircraft and it wasn't too far off the Ryanair flight to Brussels legroom wise!! I had much more leg room on the internal US flights I took.

I expect a unified response from all political figure in the region..across all parties. not that Mannion will take any notice

Schuhart

hobie wrote:

As someone who's flying history has typically been 100 to 150 flights a year, to most parts of the world, I think I will be the judge of that ...........

Have you considered just moving to London? Might be kinder to the planet in the long run.;)

therecklessone

ninty9er wrote:

With an average fleet age of 10 years old for 7 long haul aircraft some of which are fairly new in aricraft terms would lead me to believe that there must be some on the 15 year old side draggin that average up!

short haul is much better on Avg at 3.8 yrs for 35 aircraft, but taking it as a given that Willie Walsh's turnaround involved expansion of fleet for new routes there are also some farily old aircraft on this fleet too.

Quite a difference from a "significant majority", isn't it?

According to this source the oldest aircraft in the EI fleet are three of the A330s at 13 years old.

The oldest A321 dates from 1998.

The oldest A320 dates from 2000.

hobie

Schuhart wrote:

Have you considered just moving to London? Might be kinder to the planet in the long run.;)

I'll excuse the silly remark ......

I for one recognise that the major International company I'm associated with needs direct access to London Heathrow, Boston and New York ..... without any one of these frequent connections the Shannon operation would simply have not been located on the west coast of Ireland ..... as an operation that deals with dozens of countries around the world and which regularily receives visitors from literally every part of the globe, I can hardly think of anyone who does not arrive either direct or through LHR ....

I cannot imagine a more damaging proposal than the loss of LHR slots for both existing and future business operations in the mid west area ...... :mad:

Streete

I know very little about the airline business etc so apologies if this post comes across as naive or at the very least clutching at straws.

BA code shared the LHR route with Aer Lingus. As such I would imagine that significant business on the route was coming via BA inward/outward bookings, connections etc. I would imagine a lot of the BA bookings would be Business Class premium ticket bookings connecting through Heathrow to Shannon from other destinations, i.e. good regular earners for BA. Aer Lingus dropped business class as part of its rebranding as a low fares short haul airline which might have decreased its profitability on the Shannon route. I certainly remember the days when it appeared that 3/4's of the cabin on some flights were classified as business on the route and whenever you booked late the only seats available would be "business". BA would also be well aware of occupancy rates on the service etc. Does anybody think that BA might use some of its Heathrow slots to offer a Shannon service? One would imagine that BA is using its Heathrow slots to optimise passenger levels as it is.

Schuhart

hobie wrote:

I for one recognise that the major International company I'm associated with needs direct access to London Heathrow, Boston and New York

If what you say is true, then indeed there is little future for your company in Shannon. Sort of highlights how the contention you sometimes see to the effect that any enterprise can be located anywhere because of modern communications technologies is bunk. It also supports the IDA contention that there will be certain types of enterprise that it only makes sense to locate in Dublin - where you can be guarenteed of air links to a wide variety of destinations without a dependancy on LHR or any other single foriegn airport.

Somehow, though, I doubt if many will voice this pretty obvious conclusion.

billy the squid

And just so you can all sleep well tonight, supporting a party doesn't mean agreeing with everything it says. For example many in FG don't want to see Irish become an optional school subject, yet it is party policy because the PP say so

Tell that to the late Brian Lenihan Sr. Of course your being a member of Ogra Fianna Fail you may not have been around when he went against his party.

The list of things the Midwest has lost since this government has come into power back in May is quite impressive considering it is only 3 months ago

Amazotheamazing

This is just another example of Fianna Fail selling out the Midwest. With such a large share holding it's inconceivable that the Government couldn't have stopped this but as usual, they do nothing for the area. Anyone who was idiotic or selfish enough to vote FF should be ashamed.

knipex

Schuhart wrote:

And I always associated Shannon with displaced Northern nationalists. I never realised Unionism was also so strong there.

Please...........

Is this country gone so bad that no one can question what happens in Belfast or anywhere in the North without being called a unionist. Also despite what you may wish and want Northern Ireland is in fact a foreign country.

What people are finding so hard to understand is that the load levels on the Shannon to Heathrow flights were among the highest on all EI flights. EI themselves described them as extraordinaraly high so we struggle to see the logic behind removing these routes. EI previously removed routes from Shannon that showed similar loading levels.

The reason we use London as a hub and not Dublin is the difficulty in flying into Dublin and driving to Dublin is not really an option. With morning traffic on the N7 and M50 it could take 4 hours and then you pay a fortune to park your car. It is cheaper to Park in Shannon and fly to London than pay for parking in Dublin. Plus Heathrow is a much nicer airport to transferr through than Dublin.

The loss of the Heathrow flights will have serious effets on my company. there was talk of our American parents locating a European Sales Hub in Limerick but I can guarantee that the lack of Heathrow flights will put an end to that. They will now either base it in Dublin or London.

There has been zero inward investment into the mid west in years. The last major employer to move into the area was Dell back in the mists of time. Our politicans seem to be more intersted in attending funerals and local fund raisers that actually doing somethign for the long term benifit of their constituancy.

Sierra Oscar

Did anyone else listen to Radio 1's discussion on this today? I could not get over that eejit from the North that was saying we should all stop being selfish down around here, that this move would be excellent for the people of the North.

I just had to say to myself, I really do not give a ****e about those up in Belfast if our economy is on the line in the in the Mid West because of this move.

Schuhart

knipex wrote:

Is this country gone so bad that no one can question what happens in Belfast or anywhere in the North without being called a unionist. Also despite what you may wish and want Northern Ireland is in fact a foreign country.

Clearly people can question all kinds of things in Belfast without being Unionist. However, someone who feels the North should be treated as a foreign country clearly is advocating a unionist position.

There’s nothing wrong with that. But it is noticeable how quickly people in the Mid West adopt that unionist mindset. In another context, particularly after a few drinks, the same people would probably happily barrel on about Dublin and the Pale being West Britain. I’ve a feeling that the sense of irony must be surgically removed from all infants born West of the Shannon.

knipex wrote:

Heathrow is a much nicer airport to transferr through than Dublin.

Wha? Bigger, serves far, far more destinations. But nicer?

Can I also suggest that calmly stating that its easier for an Irish person to travel via London than Dublin might simply underline the extent to which Dublin’s infrastructure needs have been neglected while we did things like spend £40 million upgrading Shannon’s terminal to cope with a non-existent increase in transatlantic business? I think there's a need for mindsets to change.

At the human level, losing a job is a kick in the nuts. At a policy level, the Mid West has been given breaks at enormous expense to the rest of the country. What have you got to show for it?

Schuhart

Sierra Oscar wrote:

I could not get over that eejit from the North that was saying we should all stop being selfish down around here, that this move would be excellent for the people of the North.

I didn't hear the broadcast, but your description makes me think that eejit is just a mirror image of what others are saying here.

billy the squid

Schuhart wrote:

Clearly people can question all kinds of things in Belfast without being Unionist. However, someone who feels the North should be treated as a foreign country clearly is advocating a unionist position.

The north is a part of a foreign country, called the United Kingdom. Live with it. Stop this unionist/nationalist sniping or I will stop it for you. it is not relavent

Schuhart

billy the squid wrote:

The north is a part of a foreign country, called the United Kingdom. Live with it. Stop this unionist/nationalist sniping or I will stop it for you. it is not relavent

If its not relevant, why are several posters (including you) strongly pointing out that Belfast is in the UK? (The same UK, incidently, that you so much want a flight connection to.)

My feeling is that stating the simple fact that this view reflects a unionist outlook is relevant, but unpalatable. Making points that are relevant, but unpalatable, seem to be permitted by the forum charter.

Sierra Oscar

Schuhart wrote:

If its not relevant, why are several posters (including you) strongly pointing out that Belfast is in the UK? (The same UK, incidently, that you so much want a flight connection to.)

My feeling is that stating the simple fact that this view reflects a unionist outlook is relevant, but unpalatable. Making points that are relevant, but unpalatable, seem to be permitted by the forum charter.

Your the one that is bringing up this Unionist crap - You are just over exaggerating and changing peoples words.

Schuhart

Sierra Oscar wrote:

Your the one that is bringing up this Unionist crap - You are just over exaggerating and changing peoples words.

I'm not changing anyone's words. It's simply a fact that someone who sees any part of Ireland outside of the jurisdiction of the Republic as being as foriegn as any other country is stating a unionist viewpoint. That may be unpalatable to you, but it is simply a fact.

billy the squid

Schuhart wrote:

I'm not changing anyone's words. It's simply a fact that someone who sees any part of Ireland outside of the jurisdiction of the Republic as being as foriegn as any other country is stating a unionist viewpoint. That may be unpalatable to you, but it is simply a fact.

No it is not stating a "unionist" view, it is stating a ****ing fact, Belfast is in the ****ing UK and has a UK postcode, therefore it is in the ****ing UK.

Now any more of these accusations of unionism will lead to a ban, questioning ones loyalty to ones country is just as much a personal insult and will be treated as such.

This is your final warning on this. A one month ban will follow if you continue.

cancan

Schuhart wrote:

If what you say is true, then indeed there is little future for your company in Shannon. Sort of highlights how the contention you sometimes see to the effect that any enterprise can be located anywhere because of modern communications technologies is bunk. It also supports the IDA contention that there will be certain types of enterprise that it only makes sense to locate in Dublin - where you can be guarenteed of air links to a wide variety of destinations without a dependancy on LHR or any other single foriegn airport.

Somehow, though, I doubt if many will voice this pretty obvious conclusion.

So should we just close down all industry in the west, because aer lingus have a bee in their bonnet about shannon.

There are plenty of reasons that a company might not like to be based in Dublin, or can't for logistical reasons. But that's a story for another thread.

Assuming that all western industry does not need to be there in rather naive on your part.

I think assuming that your national airline could provide money making routes for a huge population to a major market wouldn't be too much to ask for.

As ever, Ryan Air will have to come to the rescue. He’ll find a way to buy them out, and fire the poor management they have now.

Aer Lingus customer service and quality has gone down the tubes in the past few years. They used to be a carrier to be proud of, now they're just a money hungry embarrassment.

As for their reckless decision making and the negative impact it has on an entire region, I wish them the worst in their future endeavors.

Where are you based by the way - would be interested to know where such naivety comes from?

therecklessone

cancan wrote:

As ever, Ryan Air will have to come to the rescue. He’ll find a way to buy them out, and fire the poor management they have now.

Aer Lingus customer service and quality has gone down the tubes in the past few years. They used to be a carrier to be proud of, now they're just a money hungry embarrassment.

Ooh the irony...

cancan

therecklessone wrote:

Ooh the irony...

At least ryan air know their customer service is rubbish, and their prices reflect that.
Aer Lingus still think they are some kind of premium no frills version of of a decent airline.