Shannon-Heathrow discussion [merged]

therecklessone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

How do new routes to Budapest affect flying in and out of Heathrow? That's just a tired way to prop up a weak arguement.

I point it out as you seem intent on arguing that competition will reduce EI's ability to turn a profit in Belfast. There's no competition on the Budapest route, there is an example of a new route on which they can grow business on.

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Not sure what SAA's arrangement with Ryanair has to do with how AL works on it's profits.

Because it is rumoured that Ryanair enjoy much more beneficial charges at SNN than Aer Lingus do, as a result of the SAA courting Ryanair for business.

Amazotheamazing wrote:

It makes no commercial sense, but this decision has nothing to do with commercial sense.

On what basis was the decision made then?

cancan

therecklessone wrote:

Do you really think Ryanair are supporting the route in the national interest?

They don't want competition on their own expansion at Belfast City. They want to embarrass the government (as they always attempt to do). And above all they want the publicity.

If Ryanair are so interested in keeping the link, why don't they secure some LHR slots are fly SNN-LHR themselves? They've got the cash reserves to buy them.

Only the gullible would fail to see the Ryanair offer for what it is.

Who mentioned the national interest - simple fact is the the gov are in a bad spot now, and they know it - with ryanair, they can fix the issue.

Again, that was a money making route, that was badly needed in the region.

If ryan air want to make a few quid in a place where money can be made, more power to them.

Don't know why some of ye feel so strongly for something that will lead to job losses. I hope ye all have state jobs, or work for aer lingus!

Amazotheamazing

So, AL are doing this in a huff becuase Ryanair got a better deal? If anything, AL should use Ryanair's deal to make their own deal even more profitable by demanding parity.

I don't know what's backing this decision, but when the Chief Exec admits there's been no real costing of the new routes and the old routes are profitable, it clearly isn't commercial sense.

I've no problem with AL setting up in Belfast, what I do object to is them adding unnecessary heathrow flights to their plans.

At no point has anyone shown Belfast needs extra Heathrow flights, but plenty of people have pointed out why Belfast is probably already well supplied with them.

therecklessone

cancan wrote:

If ryan air want to make a few quid in a place where money can be made, more power to them.

Ironically, when EI try to run the airline in as profitable a manner as possible you're up in arms. Can't have it both ways. Why don't Ryanair try to operate SNN-LHR?

cancan wrote:

Don't know why some of ye feel so strongly for something that will lead to job losses. I hope ye all have state jobs, or work for aer lingus!

I'm just glad the days of running EI as a charity seem to be behind us. I want the airline to succeed, and to succeed it needs the freedom to make unpopular decisions.

vkid

Slots in LHR are like gold dust. Thats why AL are taking SNN's to run against heavy competition in Belfast. This is no more a commercial decision than i am, political pure and simple and hence the governments silence

therecklessone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

So, AL are doing this in a huff becuase Ryanair got a better deal? If anything, AL should use Ryanair's deal to make their own deal even more profitable by demanding parity.

Or maybe it was a signal to the airline that their future lay elsewhere?

Amazotheamazing wrote:

I've no problem with AL setting up in Belfast, what I do object to is them adding unnecessary heathrow flights to their plans.

At no point has anyone shown Belfast needs extra Heathrow flights, but plenty of people have pointed out why Belfast is probably already well supplied with them.

Your problem has nothing to do with Belfast, its that SNN is losing its direct connection to LHR. If that was kept (and Dublin lost a few flights a day to LHR instead) you wouldn't care a jot.

If the demand is there for a direct SNN-LHR service then let the SAA get out there and work on attracting another airline in. BMI now face competition out of the Belfast area, why not approach them to swap a couple of flights to SNN?

therecklessone

vkid wrote:

Slots in LHR are like gold dust.

But available if you have the cash.

How is this a political decision?

cancan

therecklessone wrote:

Ironically, when EI try to run the airline in as profitable a manner as possible you're up in arms. Can't have it both ways. Why don't Ryanair try to operate SNN-LHR?

It was operating profitably from Shannon. And there is no basis at this point to think it will make anymore money from belfast -they didn't even do a costing on the belfast route!

therecklessone wrote:

I'm just glad the days of running EI as a charity seem to be behind us. I want the airline to succeed, and to succeed it needs the freedom to make unpopular decisions.

This says it all..............
http://www.ireland.com/blogs/ontherecord/2007/08/08/look-up-its-an-aer-lingus-engine-falling-off-the-plane/

Amazotheamazing

therecklessone wrote:

Or maybe it was a signal to the airline that their future lay elsewhere?



Your problem has nothing to do with Belfast, its that SNN is losing its direct connection to LHR. If that was kept (and Dublin lost a few flights a day to LHR instead) you wouldn't care a jot.

If the demand is there for a direct SNN-LHR service then let the SAA get out there and work on attracting another airline in. BMI now face competition out of the Belfast area, why not approach them to swap a couple of flights to SNN?

There's no point debating this with you, so far you've done nothing but deal in rumours and maybes.

Afaik, people have already approached BA looking for them to take over the profitable routes.

So far, no one has put forward any credible reason for AL getting rid of profitable routes. Indeed, one report stated the current flights operate at 95% capacity. That's incredibly high, this decision is utterly bizarre.

hobie

therecklessone wrote:

Do you really think Ryanair are supporting the route in the national interest?

They don't want competition on their own expansion at Belfast City. They want to embarrass the government (as they always attempt to do). And above all they want the publicity.

If Ryanair are so interested in keeping the link, why don't they secure some LHR slots are fly SNN-LHR themselves? They've got the cash reserves to buy them.

Only the gullible would fail to see the Ryanair offer for what it is.

Government vote - 25.3%

Ryanair vote - 25%

Employee shares - 15% (no one seems to be talking about the employee share holding ???)

Let the Government call in these votes ...... Ryanair itself has commited in writing ... on Television and on Radio to support the retention of the Shannon slots into Heathrow by aligning it's voting power with the Government .......

Over to you Bertie .......

therecklessone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

There's no point debating this with you, so far you've done nothing but deal in rumours and maybes.

Afaik, people have already approached BA looking for them to take over the profitable routes.

Pot, kettle, and black arse spring to mind.

Amazotheamazing

therecklessone wrote:

Pot, kettle, and black arse spring to mind.

Why? All I've done is is point out the facts, it's a profitable route being moved for no obvious reason, all you've discussed is rumours about Ryanair and Belfast.

hobie

As an aside, I wonder what British Airways would do if Ryanair could get into LHR in a big way ......

Month of March 2007 total passenger numbers .....


BA - 2.79 million

and that little old Irish airline Ryanair ..... ?

just 3.77 million for the month .....

therecklessone

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Why? All I've done is is point out the facts, it's a profitable route being moved for no obvious reason, all you've discussed is rumours about Ryanair and Belfast.

Aer Lingus have identified growth outside this state as crucial to development of the airline. They have chosen Belfast as their first base outside the state. To provide a solid base on which they can build at Belfast they have chosen two key routes at LHR and AMS which link into BA's extensive route network at LHR and KLM's route network at AMS. Aer LIngus have code-sharing agreements with both airlines. In total, they will operate 35 flights a week (out of a total of 56) to the two airports.

The tone of EI's press release makes that clear:

The schedule, which will be announced later today, will provide customers with flights from BFS to Heathrow and Schiphol at times that connect with a range of international long-haul departures by both BA and KLM. The Heathrow service will be operated in conjunction with our codeshare partner, BA.

It is clear that to solidify their presence at Belfast EI have chosen two airports that guarantee them a significant share of business from customers who seek onward connections through their codeshare partners.

Unfortunately, EI have a limited supply of slots at LHR (and are unlikely to seek more from other operators) so to operate from Belfast to LHR they must transfer flights from another airport.

Is it so hard to understand that Belfast offers greater potential for expansion to EI than Shannon does?

boardsdotie

This thread is quite intresting and accurate in most parts.

However lets stop posting an start sending emails to Bertie.

taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie

Let him know what we think obviously this will be filtered through office officals.

Schuhart

cancan wrote:

You will perhaps note that many companies *DID* locate in this region because of the air links it had.

You'll recall that a tax incentive was involved, along with a dedicated development agency - even if that is history now that all Irish enterprises pay the same low corporation tax. I'd suggest that was a strong factor in the decision to locate at Shannon. I think our recent experience suggests that companies will put up with quite a lot so long as they get a tax break.

hobie

Unfortunately, EI have a limited supply of slots at LHR (and are unlikely to seek more from other operators) so to operate from Belfast to LHR they must transfer flights from another airport.

One wonders why Air Lingus has rented out two (2) LHR slots to BA and Continental Airlines .......

therecklessone

hobie wrote:

One wonders why Air Lingus has rented out two (2) LHR slots to BA and Continental Airlines .......

According to this post on the Commuting and Transport board, the Open Skies agreement was going to put pressure on EI for a number of their afternoon slots.

If that is true, then it makes sense for them to lease the slots now rather than be forced into leasing/relinquishing them.

Regardless, EI got access to Gatwick as a result of their lease agreement.

golden

EI should have taken flights out of all airports evenly if they wanted to fly out of Belfast and not just target one area which will also have a knock on effect in both tourism and commercial side of things.

Also there is a connectivity issue as well such as if you had to get a connection flight for long hauls.

As EI pointed out they are doing it for the shareholders interests and it has been pointed out on this debate that both Ryanair and Government hold a substantial amount of shares to knock this in the bud if they so wish.

hobie

Schuhart wrote:

You'll recall that a tax incentive was involved, along with a dedicated development agency - even if that is history now that all Irish enterprises pay the same low corporation tax. I'd suggest that was a strong factor in the decision to locate at Shannon. I think our recent experience suggests that companies will put up with quite a lot so long as they get a tax break.

Let me recall the reasons for our own operation locating in Shannon….

Airport location for goods and personnel ….. Boston/New York and LHR air connections .... Critical for our particular company

Readily available intelligent personnel/schools/colleges/universities

English language

Easy local plant expansion

A ‘neutral’ location in the eyes of the world

Relative cost levels

Communication abilities

The ‘Irish Factor’ ……. Our worldwide Customers are always delighted to visit Ireland

Grants and Corporation tax levels (the absolute last items considered when the decision was made to locate in Shannon)

beanflick

What's happening down at Shannon is an absolute disgrace and typical of this government. Its one thing closing the route, but another taking the slots to Heathrow out of Shannon.

We all seem to find massive time to hit online polls etc (and with some outstanding effect!)...Well its time to put that to good use.

We all sit around and moan about this and that and do nothing about it. Send out the mail below to the Department of Transport, cc'ing the papers. Anyone who thinks of it as a waste of time, well its a little thing called democracy that we hear so much about on the news. If a flood of e-mails start with the papers cc'd, it'll have an effect.

Send the e-mail to the addresses below, and then forward to everyone you know to do similar. To sit, complain and do nothing is ridiculous. This can work and will work. Its time the people of this country opened their mouths (/pressed send button - same thing!).

E-mail something to the effect:

TO:

info@transport.ie

cc:

info@independent.ie
newsdesk@irish-times.ie

info@thestar.ie

editor@examiner.ie

info@rte.ie

News@tv3.ie

SUBJECT: Objection to Aer Lingus Shannon pull out

Minister,

The decision by Aer Lingus to close the Shannon - Heathrow route and also to move the Heathrow landing slots out of Shannon will have dire consequences for the region.

I am strongly opposed to this move. As a tax payer I demand that the Government, as a significant shareholder in Aer Lingus, object to this move and do everything to block this.

Already there is an overwhelming public opposition to this move and I expect the Government to reflect in its actions the will of the people.

Yours,

Liam Byrne

Amazotheamazing wrote:

So, AL are doing this in a huff becuase Ryanair got a better deal? If anything, AL should use Ryanair's deal to make their own deal even more profitable by demanding parity.

Had to laugh when I read about this.

If you buy something in a shop at what you presumably think is an OK price, and then 6 months later (when the shop has to make critical decisions following a critical reduction in their available level of U.S. customers) the same thing is on offer at a reduced price, are you entitled to be sickened by the fact that someone else is going to get it cheaper ?

I don't think so.

You were offered, and accepted a price that seemed reasonable at the time.

Someone else bargained better than you, in different circumstances.

That's not their fault, or the seller's fault.....hell, it's not even your fault really, since the cheaper offer might not have been even on the cards....Ryanair came in with a strong bargaining option given that the stopover was being killed off - Shannon had to make a decent deal to stay in business, but they weren't going to be as stubborn since losing the deal completely would have caused bigger problems.

Amazotheamazing

I meant when it came time to renegiotiate the deal Liam.

OTK

70 years of airport policy for the West has now comprehensively failed. We have 7 international airports in the West, none of them viable without massive state aid. EU competition rules preclude state interference in private companies and it wouldn't look good if there was huge state intervention to prevent the north winning some business from the South. The stopover ends next year and then what?

The dominance of Dublin will increase when the motorway network is completed in 2010. The network will be arranged like spokes of a wheel emanating from Dublin. The West would have been better off with a 200km route linking galway and Cork via limerick and one large 200km route Limerick-Dublin rather than the 3 motorways they're getting. In this way Shannon could reasonably attract business from the West that will in future go to Dublin up the motorways. We will also have a motorway from Dublin-Waterford and Dublin-Wexford but none between Cork and Wexford. Most traffic on the six motorways entering Dublin will be commuters. Interurban my hole.

Who would support helping out Shannon now? Not Dublin after 70 years of expensive interventionist failure. Not Cork with their own debt laden foggy airport, nor the locals of the airports in Sligo, Galway, Knock, Donegal, Waterford.

Look at the legacy: the picture postcard town of Shannon, a few tax-incentive sheds and some business refueling planes for a war that will probably end before the stopover.

On the plus side, Shannon/Limerick might now start to get it together and actually compete commercially for business with the prospect of their 70 years of handouts coming to an end. Nothing like a bit of competition.

cancan

..

cancan

OTK wrote:

70 years of airport policy for the West has now comprehensively failed. We have 7 international airports in the West, none of them viable without massive state aid. EU competition rules preclude state interference in private companies and it wouldn't look good if there was huge state intervention to prevent the north winning some business from the South. The stopover ends next year and then what?

The dominance of Dublin will increase when the motorway network is completed in 2010. The network will be arranged like spokes of a wheel emanating from Dublin. The West would have been better off with a 200km route linking galway and Cork via limerick and one large 200km route Limerick-Dublin rather than the 3 motorways they're getting. In this way Shannon could reasonably attract business from the West that will in future go to Dublin up the motorways. We will also have a motorway from Dublin-Waterford and Dublin-Wexford but none between Cork and Wexford. Most traffic on the six motorways entering Dublin will be commuters. Interurban my hole.

Who would support helping out Shannon now? Not Dublin after 70 years of expensive interventionist failure. Not Cork with their own debt laden foggy airport, nor the locals of the airports in Sligo, Galway, Knock, Donegal, Waterford.

Look at the legacy: the picture postcard town of Shannon, a few tax-incentive sheds and some business refueling planes for a war that will probably end before the stopover.

On the plus side, Shannon/Limerick might now start to get it together and actually compete commercially for business with the prospect of their 70 years of handouts coming to an end. Nothing like a bit of competition.

Great idea - business people down the west will jump at the idea of having to drive 200km to dublin to hop on a plane to london.

Dublin has to be one of the most miserable excuses for a capital city in europe. High living costs, in a city that is below average by international standards. Most jobs in the mid west are taken by people trying to get the rock out of dublin.

Most countries provide aid to regions outside the capital to encourage growth there, and government support projects to foister that.

If aerlingus want to turn their backs on the west, off with them - they always treated shannon like a black sheep - I remember having to pay 300 pounds back in the 80's to fly shannon london, when they had 100 pound rates from dublin.

Someone else will step in and make money from this profitable route - if you guys based in the east are too blind to see that a country needs to have more than one region to encourage development, stay over there and don't be buying holiday homes in west clare to get away from the dump that dublin is.


I get the plane from the U.S. often enough to see that most people get off the plane in shannon, because the ireland they want to see is all around that area. The tourist money, is spent mostly outside dublin, in areas around the country that can hold their own against international attractions.
An american tourist laden with dollars, does not fly 3000 miles to see the spire, temple bar or some other excuse for a tourist attraction that dublin claims to have.

They don't travel 3000 miles to see urban sprawl, bad planning, and mile after mile of mediocrity.

They come to see the west, and see something that other places can't offer.

hobie

Anti Shannon ....

Anti limerick ....

Anti the Mid west .....

Anti regional development .....

Anti re-fueling of U.S. military aircraft in Shannon ...... (of course the firm instructions from Government to carry out this activity are so easily ignored)

The "Region > Midwest > Limerick City" forum is changing .... that's for sure ..... :cool:

cancan

hobie wrote:

Anti Shannon ....


Anti re-fueling of U.S. military aircraft in Shannon ...... (of course the firm instructions from Government to carry out this activity are so easily ignored)

funny thing is most of the anti us/shannon stance comes from people making their money from us multinationals.

They should remember who butters their bread at the end of the day, before paying lip service to their "beliefs"

OTK

cancan wrote:

Most countries provide aid to regions outside the capital to encourage growth there, and government support projects to foister that.

Nobody has a problem with government investment in regions that actually encourages growth rather than dependency. Do you seriously believe that the regional development policies since the stopover in 30s have worked? Since 1936, the city and county populations have grown as follows:
Cork: 35%
Limerick: 30%
Galway: 38%
Dublin: 102%

Dublin's growth has far outstripped the regions and continues to do so with Louth, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow all bursting with poxy housing estates to supply workers to the city. The West is not being chosen as a location for high-value industry because of the lack of population and the tendency for skilled workers to locate in Dublin.

Regional aid has been spread too thinly with a one-for-everyone-in-the-audience approach. The fact that there are 10 airports on this island outside of Dublin offering international flights says it all.

Someone else will step in and make money from this profitable route

So why the wailing if this is true?

An american tourist laden with dollars, does not fly 3000 miles to see the spire, temple bar or some other excuse for a tourist attraction that dublin claims to have. They don't travel 3000 miles to see urban sprawl, bad planning, and mile after mile of mediocrity.

Shannon 2006: 3.7m PAX,
Dublin 2006: 21.1m PAX.
Money talks, BS walks.

Most towns in Ireland are blighted with planned sprawl but Shannon town takes the biscuit because it's pure sprawl with no centre.

The only solution I hear from Shannon is more government market fixing to generate makey-up jobs. Has anyone got another answer?

Amazotheamazing

Bit of a chicken and egg argument there OTK, skilled workers end up in Dublin because there isn't investment in the regions, not becuase they desperately want to live in Dublin.

I agree the airport policy in this state was crazy, but a counter-balance needs to be created to Dublin, and the Cork-Limerick-Corridor was identified for this role. This action completely undermines the Western corridor and will only increase the internal migiration towards Dublin when we need to be reversing that trend.