Shannon-Heathrow discussion [merged]

hobie

1huge1 wrote:

^^ I find it hard to believe that we could get even more screwed when the ESB is sold off, I welcome that day with open arms.

Just wait ..... 5 yo yo's say we are goin to get screwed ..... I promise to give it to you in the Davin if I loose ....

hobie

Oh, by the way .....

Guess who Aer Lingus want to screw now ..... the Pilots of course ....

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0813/breaking76.htm

EI are bitterly dissaponted that the Pilots are attacking customers (RTE quote on tonights news)

Dissapointed customers !!!!!! ...... join the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ club !!!!!!

we have 350 thousand of them who want to fly Shannon - Heathrow every year but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ them you say !!!!!!

therecklessone

Some points raised in yesterday's Sunday Times business section:

1. EI's profit margin on DUB-LHR is 4 times higher than SNN-LHR

2. Ryanair are "believed" to be paying €1 per passenger at SNN, EI are paying €8.50

3. 75% of traffic on SNN-LHR does not connect to onward services.

It is very easy to see the points 2 and 3 combined are putting downward pressure on EI's prices, which in turn hurts the return on assets employed at the airport. The SAA may have accelerated an EI pull out from Shannon with their sweetheart deal for O'Leary in 2004.

The SAA is now in negotiation with Cityjet (for connections to London City and Paris) and both BMI and BA for connection to LHR.

Henry Ford III

therecklessone wrote:

Some points raised in yesterday's Sunday Times business section:

1. EI's profit margin on DUB-LHR is 4 times higher than SNN-LHR Whose fault is this? The route ex SNN is always busy

2. Ryanair are "believed" to be paying €1 per passenger at SNN, EI are paying €8.50 So what? Renegotiate. Passengers pay taxes and charghes in anyevent afaik

3. 75% of traffic on SNN-LHR does not connect to onward services. So what?

It is very easy to see the points 2 and 3 combined are putting downward pressure on EI's prices, which in turn hurts the return on assets employed at the airport. The SAA may have accelerated an EI pull out from Shannon with their sweetheart deal for O'Leary in 2004.

The SAA is now in negotiation with Cityjet (for connections to London City and Paris) and both BMI and BA for connection to LHR.

A few abstract thoughts...

hobie

Mannion himself stated just a few days ago the Shannon-LHR route is a profitable one ...... I can't imagine all routes in any airline are going to have identical profit levels but certainly homebase ones are likely to be best ....

If EI need an extra 7.50 to make them happy then charge it ..... EI are rarely cut price on this route - they don't have to be !!!! ..... I rem in the good old days we would pay an extra 100.00 punts just for Breakfast/supper and a bit more legroom and flight flexibility ..... and Business class was always full ....

I can't imagine how many global/pan european meetings I've had in and around LHR (certainly many thousands) ...... attendees fly in from every part of the world .... these non-connecting flights are just as important to me as world wide onward connections ....

I sometimes wonder if all those supporting the proposed Shannon cuts have a single idea what Global business is all about ......

Liam Byrne

On the Irish Examiner today, there's a front-page article where Aer Lingus are criticising the pilots for choosing to "attack customers"; presumably referring to the proposed strike, which will leave thousands of people unable to take the flight that they want and force them to make alternative arrangements.....

So apparently it's fine for management to do just that, but not for pilots to do it ?

Anyways, the article finishes with the following paragraph:

Customers are advised that they are likely to face severe disruption. A helpline has been established on 0818 365044

So, apparently, if recent announcements at Aer Lingus are likely to disrupt your travel plans, you ring this number to complain and have Aer Lingus sort it out.....is that right ?

Time to start ringing - only if recent announcements are likely to pose problems for you, of course....wouldn't want to be encouraging anything devious or proposing that we make a nuisance of ourselves.......

therecklessone

Henry Ford III wrote:

A few abstract thoughts...

A few abstract answers...

Whose fault is this? The route ex SNN is always busy

Busy, but not as profitable as one would expect given the "extraordinary loads".

So what? Renegotiate. Passengers pay taxes and charghes in anyevent afaik [sic]

The difference in landing charges means that Aer Lingus faces pressure from Ryanair to keep their own prices down on the London route, so that they remain competitive. Leading to point 1 above.

So what?

It provides some clarity on the argument that Shannon needs its connection to the world vis LHR. 75% of the people using the service don't transfer to other destinations, they simply travel to London. It provides further support to the argument that EI face severe competition from Ryanair on the London route, which is not helped by the sweetheart deal the SAA and O'Leary agreed in 2004.

hobie wrote:

I can't imagine how many global/pan european meetings I've had in and around LHR (certainly many thousands) ...... attendees fly in from every part of the world .... these non-connecting flights are just as important to me as world wide onward connections ....

I sometimes wonder if all those supporting the proposed Shannon cuts have a single idea what Global business is all about ......

So you only need to fly to London then? Grand, Ryanair already serve the city and the SAA have finally approached Cityjet and others to service the city

I haven't missed the irony of your last sentence...amazing to hear anyone question my understanding of global business when rthemselves bleating about a business decision taken by a private company.

hobie

hobie wrote:

I sometimes wonder if all those supporting the proposed Shannon cuts have a single idea what Global business is all about ......

In fairness Gatwick and stansted are a 30 min direct train ride from central London ie just the same as Heathrow.


Meanwhile,O'Leary possibly motivated by the fact that a Belfast hub for EI would hurt his NI Dublin Ryanair traffic has rowed in with a cunning press conference in shannon.

He might call an EGM.
Between them,the unions,the government and the pilots own more than 70% of EI.
This will put the cat among mannions pidgeons

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwmhojcwmh/

Ryanair - which owns a 25% share of Aer Lingus - has also formally asked Aer Lingus to call an extraordinary general meeting (EGM) to discuss the proposed Shannon-Heathrow pull-out.

In a statement today, Ryanair said that it would, if so requested by the Government, "be willing to vote its 25% shareholding in favour of the motion to retain Aer Lingus' existing profitable Shannon-Heathrow services.

"Alternatively the Government could ask Ryanair to abstain from voting, which would give the Government and the Employee Share Ownership Trust (ESOT) a majority at the EGM and allow them to save Shannon’s Heathrow services. On its own, Ryanair’s 25% stake will be insufficient to influence this decision.

"The trade unions, who between them own almost 20% of Aer Lingus, have already indicated that they would vote in favour of retaining Aer Lingus' Shannon-Heathrow services.

"Therefore all that is needed to save Aer Lingus' current Shannon-Heathrow services is for Bertie Ahern’s Government (acting as a 25% shareholder) to lift a finger and vote in favour of the motion at the EGM."

hobie

In fairness Gatwick and stansted are a 30 min direct train ride from central
London ie just the same as Heathrow

Who wants to go to Central London .....

Well not me very often ...... Heathrow hotels ..... Windsor and Uxbridge yes .....
thousands of times .... but downtown London? ...... not a lot ..... :rolleyes: ......

I used to use the Helicopter service from Gatwick to Heathrow years ago if I
couldnt get into LHR direct ...... that's gone now of course ....

Came across the picture below which just about sums up how some feel
about Shannon ....

um7y1h83ge06nx

Some shower of w@ankers our government, they are continuing to keep quiet on the issue: http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0815/aerlingus.html

Whatever your politics (I'm open minded when it comes to voting), if the government don't support this for the sake of the people of the Mid-West then they are not doing the people's bidding and so shouldn't be in charge of our state.

golden

And where is the leader of the pack Bertie A? Even Gordon Brown was on holidays cut them short due to the foot and mouth crisis that they are having over in England.

hobie

It's worth reading this ......

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/10931565?view=Eircomnet

Liam Byrne

1) What the hell does this have to do with the Minister for Education ? Where's that Dublin gob****e these days ? Did someone buy him another house to hide away in ?

2) "It is inappropriate for the Government to intervene in the decision making of a private company. To do so would ultimately be damaging to the company and its customers."

True, but completely ignoring the fact that this is "a private company" in which the Government holds shares.......and shareholders are entitled to have their interests heard.

If AL doesn't change its mind, then the Government should sell their shares; but (in typical arrogant FF fashion) that's unlikely considering the Government refuses to even ask the relevant questions!

vkid

if the government dont resolve this WE should be calling for government reps in the West to withdraw from government. Watch Berties government fall then. But..they wouldnt have the balls

ninty9er

vkid wrote:

if the government dont resolve this WE should be calling for government reps in the West to withdraw from government. Watch Berties government fall then. But..they wouldnt have the balls

You're forgetting that they'd have to support the opposition as well as withdraw and I don't see too many pigs flying in that direction...

Amazotheamazing

Oh come on, does anyone expect FF to do anything about this? We voted the morons back into power, despite years of corruption and incompetance. We're getting what we deserve.

heyjude

Henry Ford III wrote:

2. Ryanair are "believed" to be paying €1 per passenger at SNN, EI are paying €8.50 So what? Renegotiate. Passengers pay taxes and charghes in anyevent afaikA few abstract thoughts...

Renegotiate, lets see how that would go in the situation after the government/shareholders have forced Aer Lingus back onto the Heathrow route.....



Aer Lingus: We only want to pay €1 per passenger like Ryanair does
SNN: (They want to pay less and if we say no, the government says they still have to fly the route anyway) Tough, the price is €8.50, in fact we may need to review that charge to reflect increased costs.

The fact is that if the government forces Aer Lingus back onto the Shannon - Heathrow route, they won't have any scope to renegotiate any fees as SNN knows that they will have to stay no matter what is charged, not much of a negotiating position.

How far do you think you would get in business if you went to one of your suppliers looking for a price cut, but he already knew that if he refused, you would still be forced to buy from him ? The answer is, you would get nowhere and neither would Aer Lingus. The only way Aer Lingus can get lower charges at Shannon is if Shannon Airport and Aer Lingus' operations there,cut their costs and the unions won't be volunteering for that

GabrielSteel

An interesting article on why Ryanairs 'offer' to support any attempt to reinstate the Heathrow link can be found on this article in this weblog :cool:

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/2007/08/ryanairs-oleary-just-acting-maggot.html

Henry Ford III

heyjude wrote:

Renegotiate, lets see how that would go in the situation after the government/shareholders have forced Aer Lingus back onto the Heathrow route.....



Aer Lingus: We only want to pay €1 per passenger like Ryanair does
SNN: (They want to pay less and if we say no, the government says they still have to fly the route anyway) Tough, the price is €8.50, in fact we may need to review that charge to reflect increased costs.

The fact is that if the government forces Aer Lingus back onto the Shannon - Heathrow route, they won't have any scope to renegotiate any fees as SNN knows that they will have to stay no matter what is charged, not much of a negotiating position.

How far do you think you would get in business if you went to one of your suppliers looking for a price cut, but he already knew that if he refused, you would still be forced to buy from him ? The answer is, you would get nowhere and neither would Aer Lingus. The only way Aer Lingus can get lower charges at Shannon is if Shannon Airport and Aer Lingus' operations there,cut their costs and the unions won't be volunteering for that

No I meant AL should have renogotiated BEFORE announcing their intention to pull the route.

Henry Ford III

therecklessone wrote:

....Busy, but not as profitable as one would expect given the "extraordinary loads". How profitable is it? Is it AL least profitable route? How does it compare with other routes? I genuinely have no information on this.

The difference in landing charges means that Aer Lingus faces pressure from Ryanair to keep their own prices down on the London route, so that they remain competitive. Leading to point 1 above. Why didn't AL try to renogotiate with SAA before announcing their intention to stop the service? Competitive with what? It's a monopoly into LHW after all.

It provides some clarity on the argument that Shannon needs its connection to the world vis LHR. 75% of the people using the service don't transfer to other destinations, they simply travel to London. It provides further support to the argument that EI face severe competition from Ryanair on the London route, which is not helped by the sweetheart deal the SAA and O'Leary agreed in 2004. MOL's deal with SAA is a sound commercial one. Why AL paid and still pays such high levels of landing charges reflects their own prehistoric business practices. It would have been relatively easy to have gotten a discount presumably. It doesn't matter a jot that 75% don't go to other connections btw. Is 75% a high figure btw? By comparison to what if so? The point is that the demand for the route is strong. People want to fly to LHW, and are prepared to pay for that. The service was busy.

So you only need to fly to London then? Grand, Ryanair already serve the city and the SAA have finally approached Cityjet and others to service the city. Fine. No issues with that.

I haven't missed the irony of your last sentence...amazing to hear anyone question my understanding of global business when rthemselves bleating about a business decision taken by a private company. I hope the shareholders make a business decision at the EGM

More thoughts.

Crea

AL played this all wrong.
They should have said that they were withdrawing from Shannon in protest at the US military flights landing there:rolleyes:

hobie

I wonder who dragged up the London expert to appear on RTE News at 9.00 ..... ( I bet you it wasn't RTE who found him) .....

"people don't want to fly to LHR" .....

"There are so many better alternative airports" ......

"Shannon airport supporters are behaving like spoilt children"....

in the meantime Cork fly every slot they can get their hands on to fly into LHR including a new extra slot being added shorly ....

Dublin use every slot they have to fly to LHR .....

Belfast is jumping at the chance to get Shannon's 4 LHR slots ......

and the 1,000 pas's who currently fly the existing Shannon LHR slots every single day of the year ..... well they can just $$$$$$$$$$ off .......

It really makes my blood boil ...... :mad:

therecklessone

hobie wrote:

I wonder who dragged up the London expert to appear on RTE News at 9.00 ..... ( I bet you it wasn't RTE who found him) .....

"people don't want to fly to LHR" .....

"There are so many better alternative airports" ......

"Shannon airport supporters are behaving like spoilt children"....

The "London expert" you refer to is a respected aviation journalist who edits Flight International magazine.

hobie

therecklessone wrote:

The "London expert" you refer to is a respected aviation journalist who edits Flight International magazine.

I'm fully aware of the gentlemans background

edited to avoid irrelevant thread creep ......

therecklessone

hobie wrote:

I've followed Pilots views on his thoughts for years and I can't repeat what they think of him .....

So you knew who he was? Why not say so, rather than try to present him as some sort of village idiot?

billy the squid

He's a plane spotter, a well respected one, but a plane spotter nonetheless.

great unwashed

Is this decision going to get reversed at the EGM?

btw, can the Airbus 380 land at Shannon?

Xennon

Has anyone considered that alot of people simply do not want to fly Ryanair???

Of which I am one.

Henry Ford III

great unwashed wrote:

Is this decision going to get reversed at the EGM?

btw, can the Airbus 380 land at Shannon?

Not sure about the decision, but the A380 has already landed in SNN.

Sponge Bob

the a380 as I understand it cannot approach the existing terminal after it lands ...but it certainly landed in Shannon, ages ago.