Shannon-Heathrow discussion [merged]

1huge1

Schuhart wrote:

D?So you don't mind this redeployment of resources within the country.
.

In our country? Look you may have your personal views but when it comes down to it Northern ireland is a different country to us, they have their funding from the british government

Aer Lingus are a Irish Company (not a northern irish company) so yes I do have a right to be mad when they give away OUR jobs.

Schuhart

cancan wrote:

So should we just close down all industry in the west, because aer lingus have a bee in their bonnet about shannon.

You haven't digested the part of my post that you have quoted. Reflect on the large difference between the phrase 'certain types of enterprise' and 'all industry in the west'. Then we can discuss naivety, if it's still an issue.

1huge1 wrote:

In our country? Look you may have your personal views but when it comes down to it Northern ireland is a different country to us, they have their funding from the british government

I'm not sure that I can respond to your point as I am under threat of a ban. This is unfortunate, because you are confusing the words 'country' and 'jurisdiction' and I would like to be in a position to correct that.

cancan

Schuhart wrote:

You haven't digested the part of my post that you have quoted. Reflect on the large difference between the phrase 'certain types of enterprise' and 'all industry in the west'. Then we can discuss naivety, if it's still an issue.

So what "types of enterprise" do you deem suitable to the west of the country, and what factories/industries should we shut down overnight?

You feel that any company with a foreign travel requirement should relocate to Dublin?

Schuhart

cancan wrote:

You feel that any company with a foreign travel requirement should relocate to Dublin?

I wouldn't suggest that 'any' company with 'a' foreign travel requirement needs to locate in Dublin. I think you're trying to create a straw man by replacing the notion 'some' with 'all'. If the foreign travel requirement is just to be able to get to London, for the sake of argument, then there's clearly a number of locations that can satisfy that requirement.

But if its truly crucial for a company to have ready air access to the rest of the world, it would be just plain dumb to be depending on a single airline to deliver you to a single hub airport. Surely that's obvious from this development.

Any company that claims this development makes its presence in Shannon untenable is either stupid to have set up there in the first place, or is jumping at the chance to manufacture an excuse to move to a cheaper jurisdiction.

cancan

It's only unfortunate that some of the major hubs are serviced by this one airline. Companies up and down the west coast rely on both the existing transatlantic and cross irish sea flights with fast direct links to major markets.

Shannon's easy access was one of the reasons many companies located there, compared to the disaster zone that is dublin airport.

For air lingus to pull stunts like this with little notice is detrimental to business in the nation as a whole.

Intel and Dell among others, have operations in the mid west and the east, and stunts like this by aer lingus, do little for the reputation of our nation as a place to attract foreign investment into the future, especially, since costs in the nation overall have soared so much against cheaper opposition.

Considering ireland's precarious position and reliance on foreign investment to pay our bills, you would think efforts would be made to make business easier to be carried out, rather than scoring an own goal for people who compete for the same foreign investment. (belfast in this case).

Whoever made this decesion is an ass - pure and simple.

hobie

Schuhart wrote:

I wouldn't suggest that 'any' company with 'a' foreign travel requirement needs to locate in Dublin. I think you're trying to create a straw man by replacing the notion 'some' with 'all'. If the foreign travel requirement is just to be able to get to London, for the sake of argument, then there's clearly a number of locations that can satisfy that requirement.

But if its truly crucial for a company to have ready air access to the rest of the world, it would be just plain dumb to be depending on a single airline to deliver you to a single hub airport. Surely that's obvious from this development.

Any company that claims this development makes its presence in Shannon untenable is either stupid to have set up there in the first place, or is jumping at the chance to manufacture an excuse to move to a cheaper jurisdiction.

Our own plant has been in operation for the past 30+ years and in that time has expanded over the years by a multiplying factor of 40+, in terms of employment levels ..... local spend ..... plant space etc etc ...... in that time it has been served well with all it's Air Transport needs (in and out) ..... this is all about to change

I will treat the claim that we are "Stupid" with the contempt that it deserves ....

hobie

Ryanair writes to Ahern over Shannon
From ireland.com
18:35
Tuesday, 7th August, 2007
Ryanair said today it has written to the Taoiseach offering to work with the Government to request Aer Lingus to maintain its Shannon-Heathrow services.
Aer Lingus today confirmed it is to drop its Shannon-Heathrow routes. It will now serve Heathrow from Belfast, which was unveiled as the airline's first hub outside the Republic today.
Ryanair claimed the Government had "lied" in public statements during its takeover bid for rival airline Aer Lingus last October.
Ryanair quoted then Minister for Transport Martin Cullen on October 2 nd2006 saying Heathrow served a "unique role in ensuring connectivity to/from Ireland" and that this connectivity is "fundamental both to provide connections to/from Dublin, as well as to/from the regions".
The airline said the Minister had then said he considered that four London-Heathrow slot pairs for services to and from Shannon would be "critical to ensuring connectivity to these airports, because this is the minimum necessary to ensure a spread of flights throughout the day".
The Government owns 25.3 per cent of Aer Lingus and Ryanair owns 25 per cent.
Ryanair said it believed that, on this basis, the board of Aer Lingus would find it difficult to refuse a joint request from Ryanair and the Irish Government to maintain the "critical" connectivity between Shannon and Heathrow.
Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary said the then Minister for Transport "assured the Irish people that the Government would not allow a privatised Aer Lingus to reduce its current operations between Shannon and Heathrow".
"As usual this Government's promises are worthless. I believe this Government also lied to the European Commission when - in opposing Ryanair's offer for Aer Lingus - it claimed that the preservation of services from Shannon to Heathrow by Aer Lingus was vital for Irish consumers," he said.
"Today's sacrifice of Shannon in favour of Belfast reduces that competition and proves that both Aer Lingus and the Irish Government lied to the European Commission. Had Ryanair's offer for Aer Lingus been successful, Shannon today would continue to enjoy four daily flights to Heathrow, as Ryanair's offer committed it to maintaining Aer Lingus's Heathrow slots."
Mr O'Leary said Ryanair looked forward to "an early and positive reply" from the Taoiseach, who could save the Shannon services by taking up his airline's offer.
"Sadly on its own Ryanair cannot prevent this closure at Shannon because with just 25 per cent ownership, we do not have any power or influence over Aer Lingus," he said.

from : http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/10883460?view=Eircomnet

50.3% ...... :rolleyes:

Schuhart

cancan and hobie

Are either of your posts intended to refute the idea that a company that needs access to air routes to the rest of the world should pick a location with an airport that serves lots of destinations? Because I don’t see where you are illustrating how a location with a small airport depending on political patronage for its existence works just as well.

1huge1

hobie wrote:

from : http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/10883460?view=Eircomnet

50.3% ...... :rolleyes:

I must say Ryanair are looking very decent all of a sudden, makes me wonder would we of been better off if they did buy out Aer Lingus.

At this point if it were to save the Shannon-Heathrow route I think we'd be better off (or is that going to far?)

5h4mr0(k

Are either of your posts intended to refute the idea that a company that needs access to air routes to the rest of the world should pick a location with an airport that serves lots of destinations?

I think that for any company which had been considering setting up in the mid-west, they'll have to agree with you and locate elsewhere. Most likely that won't be in Ireland.

For the companies that established themselves in Shannon and the mid-west, 15+ years ago, when the airport had regular flights from several carriers to Heathrow and the US, it will now be a major inconvenience, if not a show stopper. If companies feel that they have to relocate, they're not going to just move up the road to Dublin.

Shannon industrial estate is the biggest employment area outside of Dublin. This decision would mean a lot more that just the Aer Lingus ground staff jobs.

Here's more on the Ryanair offer to the government http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=07&month=aug&story=gen-en-070807

ninty9er

1huge1 wrote:

I must say Ryanair are looking very decent all of a sudden, makes me wonder would we of been better off if they did buy out Aer Lingus.

At this point if it were to save the Shannon-Heathrow route I think we'd be better off (or is that going to far?)

Now that is going a bit far....not to say that it's a bad idea for Brian Cowen to utilise his control in the company.

This has been done with no thought whatsoever and is a pure publicity stunt for Mannion. He stated that Shannon wasn't cost effective, but when pressured caved and admitted that Belfast hadn't been costed.

He should be sacked for gross incompetence!!

therecklessone

I've heard it all now, Ryanair the protectionists and Aer Lingus are only interested in publicity stunts...:rolleyes:

Schuhart

5h4mr0(k wrote:

If companies feel that they have to relocate, they're not going to just move up the road to Dublin.

I absolutely agree - once the question of relocation comes up national borders cease to have meaning. But it sort of concentrates minds on where we need to attract companies in the first place. Right now, if you were looking for an ROI location outside Dublin to promote with some class of an airport Cork would win hands down as, despite the fog problem, there's no dependancy on political patronage.

vkid

Cork would win because of Meeehawl Martin...thats the only reason. Thats why half the companies in Cork are where they are..no political patronage me arse.

rebs23

vkid wrote:

Cork would win because of Meeehawl Martin...thats the only reason. Thats why half the companies in Cork are where they are..no political patronage me arse.

Do you really honestly believe companies base their decision to locate in Cork because of MM? Multi National companies setting up in Ireland thinking of their profit margins do so because of a local politican pleading with them to locate here?
Cork has been successful because of a number of different reasons very little to do with a politician.
Issues such as population base/demographics, success of 3rd level institutions, bio-tech/pharma hub, cultural attractions , lack of trade union militancy in region, etc, etc.
A lot of people in Cork are just waiting for an anouncement on our Heathrow slots. The real issue is that this country and gov have no coherent policy on Airports. The gov continues to fund every little town with an airport in this country destabilising and undermining the airports that could potentially compete with Dublin. We need to agree a policy that certain airports should target certain types of activity eg long haul/holiday/low cost/business, etc, etc.

Liam Byrne

rebs23 wrote:

We need to agree a policy that certain airports should target certain types of activity eg long haul/holiday/low cost/business, etc, etc.

You're joking, right ? So if I want to have the benefit of weekday trips to Heathrow, I can't use my local airport to go on a sun holiday ?

Considering the Shannon flight was regularly full/almost full, and if it's true that the Belfast route hasn't even been costed, then this is perfect proof that Aer Lingus should never have been privatised, or AT LEAST the Government should have kept a majority stake.

What with eircom looking to swap old dodgy phone lines for state-of-the-art MANs and Aer Lingus swapping routes outside the juristiction, the FF/PD Government's "privatise everything" policies are really coming back to bite us in the ass! :mad:

vkid

rebs23 wrote:

Do you really honestly believe companies base their decision to locate in Cork because of MM? Multi National companies setting up in Ireland thinking of their profit margins do so because of a local politican pleading with them to locate here?
Cork has been successful because of a number of different reasons very little to do with a politician.
Issues such as population base/demographics, success of 3rd level institutions, bio-tech/pharma hub, cultural attractions , lack of trade union militancy in region, etc, etc.
A lot of people in Cork are just waiting for an anouncement on our Heathrow slots. The real issue is that this country and gov have no coherent policy on Airports. The gov continues to fund every little town with an airport in this country destabilising and undermining the airports that could potentially compete with Dublin. We need to agree a policy that certain airports should target certain types of activity eg long haul/holiday/low cost/business, etc, etc.

If you think there is no political involvement in any company locating anywhere you are sorely mistaken. Everything in this country is political..I would agree with you on every little airport being funded. It is ridiculous. Waterford getting 27million was a joke when those people should really be using Cork. Ireland is not populated enough for every airstrip in the country to be a regional airport and it is flooding the place with poor quality services. Waterford is a bit like Galway..an air field and the governments policy on aviation is also a joke but to say there is no political influence in where companies locate is stupid and extremely naive

hobie

Aer Lingus switch sparks job fears
Wednesday, 8 August 2007 12:01
There are fears for the future of one of the biggest employers in the region in the wake of Aer Lingus's decision to abandon its daily Shannon/Heathrow service.

The general manager of Element Six, which distributes man made diamonds globally out of Shannon, has said the company's 600 employees face a very uncertain future if a replacement carrier or route isn't found before the Aer Lingus service is withdrawn.

Element Six, which was formerly De Beers Industrial Diamonds, has been in Shannon for the last 45 years.

Ken Sullivan is General Manager of Element Six in Shannon and told RTE News last night that some of the jobs at the company are under threat.

And he said the rational for the operation remaining in Shannon was challenged, without a local air service to Heathrow.

This is because like many companies in the region, Element Six is part of a much wider group who've set up in the Shannon on the assumption their customers could easily get to them and their executives could easily connect with the rest of the world.

The common denominator for all that was easy access to Heathrow on what the region's business understood to be a profitable and secure Aer Lingus service.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0808/shannon.html

45 years in Shannon ...... that's 15 years more than our operation !!!! ...

rebs23

Liam Byrne wrote:

You're joking, right ? So if I want to have the benefit of weekday trips to Heathrow, I can't use my local airport to go on a sun holiday ?

Maybe this is a way of ensuring the continued survival of Shannon and Cork because lets face it we cannot compete on any level with Dublin unless the gov has a clear policy on how our 3 main airports should develop and lets be honest there is nothing new in not being able to use your local airport for all your travel needs/destinations.

beanflick

Interpol have been alerted and a nationwide search will begin later today in an effort to locate Minister Willie O'Dea who is still reported as "missing, believed hiding under a bush".

Minister O'Dea was last sighted in the company of a number of (other) church mice in a field near Meanus just prior to announcement that Aer Lingus were to export Shannon-Heathrow slots out of the country.

SIR Dermot Mannion, CE of Britain's favourite Oirish Airline expressed "concern" at the Minister's disappearance while availing of the opportunity to announce that contracts would soon be issued to H&W to repaint the entire Aer Lingus fleet in a fetching orange livery with Union Jack trim - but not on Sundays. Sir Dermot is also expected to launch a competition to re-name the airline with something more appropriate. Although ScumAer has been ruled out as being "too Irish", while "flytraitorouswestbritb*****ds.com" has already been snapped up.

Back to WillieO......a reward of two and a half quotas has been offered for his return.....to accountancy or whatever the little rat did in his his previous life!

rebs23

vkid wrote:

If you think there is no political involvement in any company locating anywhere you are sorely mistaken. ..... but to say there is no political influence in where companies locate is stupid and extremely naive

Just an opinion. I know from the businesses I deal with that location of inward investment in Ireland has very little to do with a politicians pleading for a paticular area.

golden

If what Aer Lingus is true in what they say they are doing it for the shareholders, well then that means if the Government and Ryanair collaborate on this surely they would have the majority say and not DM.

If AL pulls out of Shannon this would also mean no connecting flights for long haul destinations and we would have to travel up to Dublin or fly to another airport ie stansted.

Will AL do a U turn? If the government dont do anything as they are one of the major players in the shareholders still, what type of government have we voted in? There is alot more at stake than just 45 Jobs.

cancan

Schuhart wrote:

cancan and hobie

Are either of your posts intended to refute the idea that a company that needs access to air routes to the rest of the world should pick a location with an airport that serves lots of destinations? Because I don’t see where you are illustrating how a location with a small airport depending on political patronage for its existence works just as well.

You will perhaps note that many companies *DID* locate in this region because of the air links it had. Take a drive around shannon - they didn't locate there because of the view.
You can be anti shannon/anti stopover all you want, but at the end of the day there are many many jobs already there depending on these links.

Shannon provided a lower cost alternative to Dublin for companies looking to base themselves in Ireland.

Aer Lingus pulling a profitable route that provided a life line for the region and it's industry is both irresponsible and irrational.

Who would have thought that Ryan Air and the governemnt as likley partners to stick it to aer lingus!

I remember the aer lingus boss over sunning himself in Maine on a boat, congratulating himself on the money he made on the flotation the week before, and how we laughed when Ryain Air launched a bit forcing him to cut short his holiday and run home with his tail between his legs.

He'd better get used to it...

therecklessone

cancan wrote:

Aer Lingus pulling a profitable route that provided a life line for the region and it's industry is both irresponsible and irrational.

Aer Lingus have no responsibility for the region or its industry, when is that going to sink in?

The management of the airline have a responsibility to maximise the return on its assets. If they decide that using LHR slots to help build a base in Belfast makes better use of available assets then so be it. The fact that the SNN-LHR route was profitable is only part of the equation, it is entirely possible that a Belfast base using the existing SNN slots @ LHR will be more profitable.

cancan

therecklessone wrote:

Aer Lingus have no responsibility for the region or its industry, when is that going to sink in?

The management of the airline have a responsibility to maximise the return on its assets. If they decide that using LHR slots to help build a base in Belfast makes better use of available assets then so be it. The fact that the SNN-LHR route was profitable is only part of the equation, it is entirely possible that a Belfast base using the existing SNN slots @ LHR will be more profitable.

The government holds 25%.
Thats the responsibility.

You would have thought that they would have bought a few new planes for their expansion plans - robbing peter to pay paul is not really expansion now, especially when strengthening belfasts air routes will probably be detrimental to the irish economy in the long term.

Amazotheamazing

therecklessone wrote:

it is entirely possible that a Belfast base using the existing SNN slots @ LHR will be more profitable.

It is possible, but it's not very likely, considering the established competition already existing in Belfast. As has been stated, these are already very profitable routes, with very high numbers using them. If anything, it makes no business sense but plenty of political sense to move these flights.

therecklessone

cancan wrote:

The government holds 25%.
Thats the responsibility.

Ryanair holds 25%. Maybe EI should do Ryanair's bidding as well?

That is a nonsense argument, the company is a private entity with the government being one of the shareholders (but not the controlling shareholder)

Amazotheamazing wrote:

It is possible, but it's not very likely, considering the established competition already existing in Belfast.

The established competition is at Belfast City not Aldergrove. In addition, EI have the added benefit of a codesharing agreement with BA at LHR that provides far greater connectivity than BMI can at LHR.

They are also launching a number of new routes out of Aldergrove, to destinations not currently served from any of the Belfast airports. [edit]on announced plans, that is only Budapest[/edit]

It is clear that Aer Lingus see a brighter future in Belfast than they do in Shannon, perhaps if the SAA weren't as quick to jump into bed with O'Leary they'd have recognised that and done more to attract further Aer Lingus business.

cancan

therecklessone wrote:

Ryanair holds 25%. Maybe EI should do Ryanair's bidding as well?

That is a nonsense argument, the company is a private entity with the government being one of the shareholders (but not the controlling shareholder)

Well if you read the thread you would have seen that ryanair and the government combined hold 50.3%.
Ryanair are all for keeping aerlingus there, and so will the government.

If companies close because of this, and a few big ones have already mentioned that they might, it'll be you the tax payer taking the hit, not aer lingus, providing money for longer dole lines, with shorter ones in Belfast.
If that's what you want, feel free to support this nonsensical move.

Amazotheamazing

therecklessone wrote:

The established competition is at Belfast City not Aldergrove. In addition, EI have the added benefit of a codesharing agreement with BA at LHR that provides far greater connectivity than BMI can at LHR.

They are also launching a number of new routes out of Aldergrove, to destinations not currently served from any of the Belfast airports. [edit]on announced plans, that is only Budapest[/edit]

It is clear that Aer Lingus see a brighter future in Belfast than they do in Shannon, perhaps if the SAA weren't as quick to jump into bed with O'Leary they'd have recognised that and done more to attract further Aer Lingus business.

How do new routes to Budapest affect flying in and out of Heathrow? That's just a tired way to prop up a weak arguement.

Not sure what SAA's arrangement with Ryanair has to do with how AL works on it's profits.

The fact is that Belfast already has plenty of flights to Heathrow, the competition is far greater which means less demand for seats and restricts being able to charge higher fees. It makes no commercial sense, but this decision has nothing to do with commercial sense.

This thread confirms my long held suspicion that people in the South really don't want a united Ireland if it affects them economically, but that's a whole other arguement.

therecklessone

cancan wrote:

Well if you read the thread you would have seen that ryanair and the government combined hold 50.3%.
Ryanair are all for keeping aerlingus there, and so will the government.

Do you really think Ryanair are supporting the route in the national interest?

They don't want competition on their own expansion at Belfast City. They want to embarrass the government (as they always attempt to do). And above all they want the publicity.

If Ryanair are so interested in keeping the link, why don't they secure some LHR slots are fly SNN-LHR themselves? They've got the cash reserves to buy them.

Only the gullible would fail to see the Ryanair offer for what it is.