Prostitution

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm asking you can you back up your statements that forced prostitution is rare in Ireland beyond assuming it is because we don't have statistics that it is common?

You are the one claiming there is a problem. Surely you can back up your claim with some kind of evidence?

Can you prove there is more to your claim than speculation and fantasy?

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are the one claiming there is a problem. Surely you can back up your claim with some kind of evidence?

Can you prove there is more to your claim than speculation and fantasy?

You really seem to be missing the point here. I'm not claiming there is a problem. I'm claiming that you cannot state diffidently that there isn't one, which you have repeatedly.

Can you back your your claim that there isn't a problem with more than "speculation and fantasy"?

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

You really seem to be missing the point here. I'm not claiming there is a problem. I'm claiming that you cannot state diffidently that there isn't one, which you have repeatedly.

Can you back your your claim that there isn't a problem with more than "speculation and fantasy"?

Wicknight, you're using the same tactic the Christian fundamentalists use when defending their position, e.g. can you prove Adam and Eve didn't exist?

The fact of the matter is the Gardai say there isn't any significant problem, and we don't have many (any?) prostitutes telling clients they've been kidnapped.

In fact, if you consider there is little to no evidence of any wrong doings, it is only reasonable to conclude there are little to no problems at all.

My position is the rational one: if there is a large forced prostitution problem, surely there should be some sort of evidence which proves it?

I have already stated I will accept there have been/are some horror stories out there (every industry has problems), but I don't accept there is a large forced prostitution problem which somehow has managed to avoid all detection.

You are the one with the controversial opinion, so you are the one who needs to do the convincing.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

you cannot state diffidently that there isn't one, which you have repeatedly.

Just to pick you up on this point: you are misquoting me.

I have said there is no evidence of a large (or medium sized) forced prostitution problem. I have not said it could not possibly exist.

I accept there may be a handful of undetected cases, but if that's 5 women out of 20,000 prostitutes, that is a small problem.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

Wicknight, you're using the same tactic the Christian fundamentalists use when defending their position, e.g. can you prove Adam and Eve didn't exist?

Which would be a perfectly valid thing for a Christian fundamentalist to ask if an atheist if the atheist stated they know Adam and Eve didn't exist.

Most atheists though wouldn't have the trouble you seem to be having coming up with justification for their statements.

AARRRGH wrote: »

My position is the rational one: if there is a large forced prostitution problem, surely there should be some sort of evidence which proves it?

And, once again, my trafficking example highlights how such assumptions are unfounded and in fact rather dangerous.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I'm not really following what the big issue with that rather simple point is. I've stated repeatibly that I'm not asking you to accept that there is a big problem, nor am I putting forward that there is a huge problem.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I have already stated I will accept there have been/are some horror stories out there (every industry has problems), but I don't accept there is a large forced prostitution problem which somehow has managed to avoid all detection.

I'm not asking you to accept that.

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are the one with the controversial opinion, so you are the one who needs to do the convincing.

I'm not attempting to convince you of anything other than the flaw in your original position, that you some how know this isn't happening without access to evidence to support that position.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

I have said there is no evidence of a large (or medium sized) forced prostitution problem. I have not said it could not possibly exist.

No, you stated that the evidence demonstrates that such a problem doesn't exist. You have said this on a number of occasions.

That's actually a myth. The evidence very clearly shows very few women are forced into prostitution against their will. In Ireland anyway.

I have already said I am open minded enough to accept there are probably some horror stories out there, but they are the exception not the rule. Certainly the evidence tells us this.

The evidence does not "clearly show" this. That is a misrepresentation of the evidence.

That is my point.

You complain about people being motivated by ideological positions yet you seem highly reluctant to concede this very simple point. If I had known it would turn into such a long argument I'm not sure I would have bothered.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

No, you stated that the evidence demonstrates that such a problem doesn't exist. You have said this on a number of occasions.

Wicknight, this is getting ridiculous. You go on and include quotes (from me) which directly contradict what you just said:

AARRRGH wrote:

That's actually a myth. The evidence very clearly shows very few women are forced into prostitution against their will. In Ireland anyway.

I have already said I am open minded enough to accept there are probably some horror stories out there, but they are the exception not the rule. Certainly the evidence tells us this.

You are trying to change my argument to fit your own flawed position. I am not saying it cannot possibly exist. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

And, once again, my trafficking example highlights how such assumptions are unfounded and in fact rather dangerous.

And once again I have to point out that human trafficking and forced prostitution are not the same thing. Stop trying to connect the two.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

Wicknight, this is getting ridiculous. You go on and include quotes (from me) which directly contradict what you just said:

If you think that this direction contradicts what I've just said you aren't reading my posts properly, which would also explain why you keep going on about me apparently trying to assert that forced prostitution is a big problem in Ireland.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I am not saying it cannot possibly exist. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I know that, and I have never claimed otherwise. What you did say is that the evidence clearly shows that very few women are forced into prostitution. The evidence does not clearly show this. That is an unfounded assertion and a misrepresentation of the evidence based on the assumption that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Seriously, what part of that do you not understand?

AARRRGH wrote: »

And once again I have to point out that human trafficking and forced prostitution are not the same thing.

And once again I have to point out that this is not relevant to my point.

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote:

I am not saying forced prostitution cannot possibly exist. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Wicknight wrote: »

I know that, and I have never claimed otherwise.

Wicknight, you have. Look at your previous post:

Wicknight wrote: »

you stated that the evidence demonstrates that such a problem doesn't exist. You have said this on a number of occasions.

I never said "such a problem doesn't exist". I said we do not have a big or medium or in any way substantial forced prostitution problem. And I am repeating myself again but the reason I have come to this conclusion is because there is no evidence for it.

You have a radical opinion about prostitution in Ireland. I am OK with that, but you need to admit that your opinion is based on speculation. You have no evidence or data to back up your claims.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

If you think that this direction contradicts what I've just said you aren't reading my posts properly, which would also explain why you keep going on about me apparently trying to assert that forced prostitution is a big problem in Ireland.

Either you believe I am wrong when I say there isn't a substantial forced prostitution problem in Ireland (why else would you be strongly disagreeing with me?), or you are simply arguing for the sake of it.

Which one is it? I think it's pretty obvious...

Wicknight wrote: »

It would be a mistake to assume that all "consensual" prostitution is actually consensual.

Wicknight wrote: »

...generalisations ignore the increasing rate of illegal sex trade in Ireland, that is putting a large number of women at serious risk.

Don't worry, I won't ask you to provide any evidence that a large number of women are at serious risk from the increasing rate of illegal sex trade in Ireland...

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

I never said "such a problem doesn't exist".

You are being some what silly now

That was in direct response to this comment of yours

I have said there is no evidence of a large (or medium sized) forced prostitution problem.

Notice that this is the "problem", large or medium sized forced prostitution in Ireland. That is a problem you don't not simply say there is no evidence for but that it doesn't exist in Ireland, while still acknowledging that there may be isolated small sized forced prostitution. You have so far, after 3 pages of this some what back and forth, presented no evidence for.

I was responding directly to your definition of the "problem", by pointing out that you did not simply say there is no evidence for it, but you said that there isn't this issue/problem in Ireland (again large or medium sized forced prostitution)

You have spent the last few posts since that arguing that you never said that forced prositution on a small scale doesn't happen when that wasn't what we were talking about based on your own definition of the problem

I'm not entirely sure if you are genuinely having trouble following my very basic point or are you simply stalling.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I said we do not have a big or medium or in any way substantial forced prostitution problem.

Which is the "problem" I've been discussing for the last few pages. How have I miss-quote you?

AARRRGH wrote: »

You have no evidence or data to back up your claims.

I wasn't aware I had made any claims.

But if it makes you feel better, I have no evidence or data to back up any claim that forced prostitution is wide scale in Ireland. Any such claims made by me (which I don't remember making) should be disregarded as unsubstantiated here-say

Are you prepared to say the same about your claims? Or would you prefer to keep arguing irrelevant points?

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

Either you believe I am wrong when I say there isn't a substantial forced prostitution problem in Ireland (why else would you be strongly disagreeing with me?), or you are simply arguing for the sake of it.

I'm "arguing" because you have put forward statements that you can't back up. It seems odd that you would fight tooth and claw over this when it is exactly the issue you complain about the "other side" doing.

The only person who is making a big deal about this is you. What is the big deal with simply admitting the evidence does not support the assertions you made earlier in the thread?

Instead you seem to want to argue everything and anything apart from that simply point.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Don't worry, I won't ask you to provide any evidence that a large number of women are at serious risk from the increasing rate of illegal sex trade in Ireland...

That is nice, considering I didn't assert that this was the case, nor could I provide evidence for that even if I wanted to.

I'm afraid I will have to ask you to provide evidence for the assertion that you know large scale forced prostitution is not taking place in Ireland.

AARRRGH

Wicknight, obviously you cannot accept when you're wrong, so you'd rather try to win some sort of semantics battle.

I don't know how clearer I can be.

We don't have evidence of any sort of significant forced prostitution problem in Ireland, yet I am open minded enough to accept there might be some undetected horror stories out there.

The problem is you want to believe there is a problem, but you cannot provide any sort of evidence to back up your assumptions, so you want me to prove there is evidence of no evidence.

You are not being reasonable.

AARRRGH

Does anyone agree with Wicknight's theory that I should provide evidence of no evidence?

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

Does anyone agree with Wicknight's theory that I should provide evidence of no evidence?

I think you both should both agree that there's not enough evidence, and leave it at that. Since Joey the Lips has disappeared again, we can assume the objection to prostitution in Ireland is once again back to a personal moral issue rather than anything to do with crime, trafficking, forced sex etc.

AARRRGH

This is about three years old, so it's a little bit of out date, but I think it's still somewhat relevant:

Detective Superintendent John McKeown, who heads Operation Quest at Store St Station, says that there is no evidence that any of the girls are being forced into prostitution, none is underage and most pocket 50 per cent of their earnings.

He says the oldest profession in the world is experiencing similar benefits of our booming economy as other industries and Dublin is now a highly sought after place to work. And he believes that politicians should considering legalising prostitution in a bid to monitor it properly and offer more protection to girls.

"We have carried out an in-depth investigation into organised prostitution over the past 18 months and we have found no evidence of exploitation or trafficking. There are no gangs involved and there is little violence.

"The youngest girls appear to be 19 and most are in their 20s and early 30s. We have found no evidence of underage girls working - the pimps don't want to bring that kind of attention on themselves. The girls are working because they want to make money and Dublin is somewhere that they can earn a lot of money," Detective Superintendent McKeown said.

"I was very surprised when we started this investigation to find that a lot of the old myths regarding prostitution have gone out the window. It is a service that is in demand and there is a lot of money about nowadays. To put it simply, there is room for everyone and plenty of work. The pimps know one another and work side by side. They don't want trouble and there are rarely disputes."

Operation Quest have also investigated a number of lap dancing clubs but say they have found no breaches of the law within that industry and no exploitation.

"Again the girls are here willingly and it is their choice to work in the business: they are earning a lot of money. They seem to be very happy doing what they are doing. They are not breaking any criminal laws. Obviously prostitution is morally wrong but there are no laws being broken because the girls aren't soliciting sex on the streets," said McKeown.

He believes that Ireland should consider making prostitution legal and monitoring it properly.

"We do not go after the girls - we wouldn't even consider doing that. It is the organisers that we are interested in," he said. "But the fact is that prostitution is here to stay and perhaps it is time that our legislators started to consider making it legal and getting a proper handle on it. Of course that would mean that taxes would have to be paid and maybe Dublin wouldn't be as lucrative a place to work."

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

The problem is you want to believe there is a problem

No that isn't the problem. I've repeatably stated over and over that I don't know if there is a significant problem or not nor I cannot produce evidence that there is a significant problem. If you take what Ruhamma say as simply here-say, and you produce a good argument to do so based on their clear religious bias, then there is very little evidence that there is any significant problem in Ireland with forced prostitution.

What troubles me though is that you seem to jump whole sale from that position to a position of stating that therefore there is no significant problem in Ireland with forced prostitution. That is an unfounded assertion and one you have been unable to back up. It would be very foolish of all concerned to assume this is the case based simply on that some what shoddy leap of logic.

AARRRGH wrote: »

so you want me to prove there is evidence of no evidence.

No I don't. I want you to prove that this is not happening to a large degree in Ireland. You made a statement to that regard, and despite all your complaining about other people being unable to back up their own statements you won't take simply steps to either back up your own statements or withdraw them, something you seem to expect everyone else to do but not yourself. Which is a bit odd for someone who spends a great deal of time complaining about the bias and assumptions of others.

I would think it is great if this isn't happening in Ireland, who wants to think that forced prostitution is happening. But I would think it is would be very troubling if people simply asserted it wasn't happening based on your faulty logic.

Wicknight... what about me then? I don't believe there is a significant problem with either forced prostitution or prostitution related trafficking in Ireland. I don't have any evidence to support that, because I have not seen any evidence to support the opposite. Which many people on this thread have tried to do.

I do believe there are some cases of both forced prostitution and prostitution related trafficking in Ireland, but compared to the population of this country it seems quite minor.

Until I see some definite evidence which shows otherwise, I think I'm being fair in thinking the problem isn't particularly serious...

shoegirl

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you both should both agree that there's not enough evidence, and leave it at that. Since Joey the Lips has disappeared again, we can assume the objection to prostitution in Ireland is once again back to a personal moral issue rather than anything to do with crime, trafficking, forced sex etc.

I dunno, I don't think its so much the issues you mention as the coercion, how much choice women entering the profession really have. Depending on what report you read, this is hugely debateable.

As for the now notorious UK report, what would worry me is the interpretation that sex trafficking doesn't exist because the police were unable to get convictions. Thats like saying that the low level of convictions for drunken driving is evidence that it doesn't really happen. What that may be (and I stress the word may) is that other circumstances (such as migration offences, language barriers, etc) may be making it much more difficult to get to a stage of conviction. Or worse still, that the police are doing a very bad job in this area. Its all too easy to dismiss the findings of the UK report as "evidence" of sex traffickings non existence and to blame the very politicized anti-sex industry bias of organizations trying to combat it for hyping the problem.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

What troubles me though is that you seem to jump whole sale from that position to a position of stating that therefore there is no significant problem in Ireland with forced prostitution. That is an unfounded assertion and one you have been unable to back up.

If you look at my previous post you'll see I quoted an interview with the head of the Garda vice squad saying they investigated the Irish prostitution industry and found no problems. That is from about 3 or 4 years ago. I accept it is possible a secretive underground forced prostitution industry has developed since then, but considering there is little evidence to back that up, I am going to take the reasonable position which is things are probably ok.

However I would not be happy in general with the Irish prostitution industry. I don't like that it's underground, and I don't like that our Government's policy which is to hope it will go away.

AARRRGH

shoegirl wrote: »

I dunno, I don't think its so much the issues you mention as the coercion, how much choice women entering the profession really have. Depending on what report you read, this is hugely debateable.

If you take an illegal immigrant as an example, she can choose to work in a low paying cleaner job, or she can choose to work as a highly paid prostitute. Most choose the former, but some choose the latter.

I know quite a lot of illegal immigrants (they tend to hang around together) and the ones who chose to work as prostitutes did so because they'd rather make a cleaners weekly wage in an hour.

I accept there is the odd horror story where a woman feels she has no choice (even if the reality is otherwise) or a f*cked up boyfriend coerces his girlfriend into having sex for money, but from my years of researching the industry from a fairly non-emotional perspective, these horror stories appear to be a lot rarer than people believe.

shoegirl

shoegirl wrote: »

I dunno, I don't think its so much the issues you mention as the coercion, how much choice women entering the profession really have. Depending on what report you read, this is hugely debateable.

Hugely debatable? Perhaps. Most of the prostitutes I have known personally (beyond the actual personal service) entered through either the strip club scene, or while they were students. In both cases, it was the appeal of money that enticed them to do it, and to continue doing it. They all came from reasonably respectable backgrounds, and lived under similar financial circumstances as the rest of us, but decided they wanted money quicker. Their choice. No coercion at all.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

Until I see some definite evidence which shows otherwise, I think I'm being fair in thinking the problem isn't particularly serious...

That ignores a number of other possibilities, such as faulty or inaccurate reporting. If you want to do that that is fine, but it is inaccurate for anyone to say that the evidence supports such a conclusion, and I would wonder why you would ignore these possibilities.

I could cite plenty of examples, nothing to do with prostitution, where a change in reporting have seen a huge increase in reported instances of what ever is being studied (autism for example, or trafficking as I have already mentioned).

I have no reason to assert that this would certainly happen with prostitution, but equally there is no reason to say it wouldn't. Basically people don't know what is happening.

It seems to me that the position that it definitely isn't taking place is as misguided (and in some cases ideologically motivated) as the position that it definitely is.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you look at my previous post you'll see I quoted an interview with the head of the Garda vice squad saying they investigated the Irish prostitution industry and found no problems.

And again you are taking that assertion further than I imagine the Garda themselves would. Investigating and finding no problems does not mean there is no problems. It means they didn't find any problems.

This is a very simply point. I'm some what flabbergasted that you are persisting with this.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I accept it is possible a secretive underground forced prostitution industry has developed since then, but considering there is little evidence to back that up, I am going to take the reasonable position which is things are probably ok.

That is not the reasonable position since most highly illegal industries tend to be secretive, to the Guards at the very least. I'm not quite sure how you expect forced prostitution rings to operate?

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

That is not the reasonable position since most highly illegal industries tend to be secretive, to the Guards at the very least. I'm not quite sure how you expect forced prostitution rings to operate?

In fairness, the Gardai are the best positioned to investigate the prostitution industry. I'm not sure who else has the resources to do a proper investigation.

I understand your point, but it is very weak. With organisations like http://www.sexworkersalliance.ie, at least there is now a non-religious, rational group who might be able to satisfy your "prove they're not slaves" request.

I do think though that you should be the one proving there is a problem, rather than me trying to prove there isn't an undetected problem.

Either way, prostitution continues as usual. So whether we agree or disagree with each other, we should try to meet a common ground to help move the prostitution industry above ground.

97i9y3941

i woundnt be surprised if the gov legalise it someday since they are desperate for revenue,and nobody probably will give a damn if they did,the days of holy ireland died the day when it came out through the years of the leaders of church had/abused kids...

spoutwell

Would we have had all the years of child abuse by priests and others if the same molestors could have phoned up a woman somewhere, paid her a few quid and got their end away instead of turning into paedophiles and perverts?

midlandsmissus

A girl came out and told her story only last week in a UK magazine about how she was forced into prostitution in London.
Eastern European girl- saw an advert for 'well paid waitressing jobs abroad'. A man then SOLD her to a pimp in london, took her passport, and issued death threats if she ever told anyone.
She said she took the risk one day and told a 'punter' that she was being held in captivity as at that stage she didn't care if she lived or died. The guy took pity on her and informed authorites.
It's a truly horrific story - she said she was never allowed out of the room and was forced to sleep with 30-40 men each day.
How can men use a service where this sh*t is still happening? It's beyond me, If there's even a potentail risk that the girl you're paying for is being held in captivity I couldn't do it.

midlandsmissus

spoutwell wrote: »

Would we have had all the years of child abuse by priests and others if the same molestors could have phoned up a woman somewhere, paid her a few quid and got their end away instead of turning into paedophiles and perverts?

Eh sure they could have. Prostitution has always been around.