Prostitution

TrustNoOne

Well, not all prostitution is forced. Most hookers do it by their own will to make good money. But on the other hand, sex slavery exists and is awful.

Anyway, I was driving around Cork city tonight at around 10pm. I passed a garda checkpoint and was stopped for a few seconds while they looked at my discs. Highly irritating as it was I thought no more of it and drove on. As I came closer to the city centre I drove through anglesea street (where the gardai and fire brigade Cork headquarters are situated) and turned a corner and what the fu ck did I see? No less than 3 hookers strolling along the street. We knew they ere brassers because we'd been told there were a few hanging around there. Myself and a friend I had in the car decided to drive across the bridge and monitor the situation from across the river. They were definitely hookers, walking up and down the street, the odd car stopping and them walking up to the. What the hell is going on? This wasn't exactly a dark alleyway, there were members of the public walking up and down the same road, taxis stopped there and I'm sure I even saw a garda vehicle passed one of them. Fvcking disgraceful sight

I don't care what people get up to, but this was an awful sight. Especially with the main garda headquarters a stones throw away and the bast ards out checking tax and insurance.

irish_bob

TrustNoOne wrote: »

Well, not all prostitution is forced. Most hookers do it by their own will to make good money. But on the other hand, sex slavery exists and is awful.

Anyway, I was driving around Cork city tonight at around 10pm. I passed a garda checkpoint and was stopped for a few seconds while they looked at my discs. Highly irritating as it was I thought no more of it and drove on. As I came closer to the city centre I drove through anglesea street (where the gardai and fire brigade Cork headquarters are situated) and turned a corner and what the fu ck did I see? No less than 3 hookers strolling along the street. We knew they ere brassers because we'd been told there were a few hanging around there. Myself and a friend I had in the car decided to drive across the bridge and monitor the situation from across the river. They were definitely hookers, walking up and down the street, the odd car stopping and them walking up to the. What the hell is going on? This wasn't exactly a dark alleyway, there were members of the public walking up and down the same road, taxis stopped there and I'm sure I even saw a garda vehicle passed one of them. Fvcking disgraceful sight

I don't care what people get up to, but this was an awful sight. Especially with the main garda headquarters a stones throw away and the bast ards out checking tax and insurance.

sign o the times

AARRRGH

They really need to legalise brothel keeping so an attempt can be made to remove street prostitution. I know it will never be fully eradicated, but some sort of system of licensed, safe, clean brothels surely makes a lot more sense than having women roam the streets.

Joey the lips

AARRRGH wrote: »

They really need to legalise brothel keeping so an attempt can be made to remove street prostitution. I know it will never be fully eradicated, but some sort of system of licensed, safe, clean brothels surely makes a lot more sense than having women roam the streets.

Apparetly it does not remove it! Unless you can show otherwise

Greyfox

Joey the lips wrote: »

Apparetly it does not remove it! Unless you can show otherwise

True it won't remove it but it's an awful lot safer for a hooker to work in a licenced brothel that can be checked up on then on the streets!

Joey the lips

Greyfox wrote: »

True it won't remove it but it's an awful lot safer for a hooker to work in a licenced brothel that can be checked up on then on the streets!

With due respect your still missing the point. It was been proven that if you increase the legal trade it also increases the illegal trade. so while you might think so you are still wrong

Greyfox

Joey the lips wrote: »

With due respect your still missing the point. It was been proven that if you increase the legal trade it also increases the illegal trade. so while you might think so you are still wrong

At least if it was legalised though anybody forced into the sex industry would actually have the option of going to the police!

Prostitution exists in pretty much every city in the world and always will because every man needs sex and most of the time it's win win for the lonely loser getting a badly needed release and for the prostitutes happily making very easy money

jumpguy

If the sex industry was legalised it could become more regulated, than an all-out ban. When will the world learn it's easier to go with the flow than try unenforcable laws? If the industry was legalised it'd be more transpartent and easily regulated. Basically, pimps and trafficing would be reduced hopefully through more regulation.

Joey the lips

Greyfox wrote: »

At least if it was legalised though anybody forced into the sex industry would actually have the option of going to the police!

jumpguy wrote: »

If the sex industry was legalised it could become more regulated, than an all-out ban. When will the world learn it's easier to go with the flow than try unenforcable laws? If the industry was legalised it'd be more transpartent and easily regulated. Basically, pimps and trafficing would be reduced hopefully through more regulation.

With respect this is absolute tripe and rubbish and you cannot prove a word of it. i tend to believe something that can be proved. Imagine you were making your case how would you prove this? Or is it just based on your perceptions?

miec

Op

I agree with you that prostitution is wrong, whether it is made legal or not, I see it as a moral issue, not for the prostitute but for those who use a prostitute. I don't buy into the arguement that it is a free choice transaction, I believe that many male and female prostitutes feel they have to sell their bodies, whether it is due to extreme poverty, a drug habit, homelessness, a dominant boyfriend/girlfriend aka a pimp and so forth. I worry about those who pay for sex, sex should be an intimate act between two people.

To those who have no problem with prostitution or who condone it, would you have a relationship with a prostitute? Would you mind if your sister/brother, mother/father, son/ daughter sold their body for sex? Would you be okay with living in or beside a red light district area?

These theorotical prostitutes that you all discuss are related to, living with, married with or friends of other people. You could have a relation or a friend or a partner that has sold their body, but would they freely admit this, hell no, because in reality, most people intrinsicly feel that prostitution is wrong. Just because it is the oldest profession around does not make it morally right.

irish_bob

miec wrote: »

Op

I agree with you that prostitution is wrong, whether it is made legal or not, I see it as a moral issue, not for the prostitute but for those who use a prostitute. I don't buy into the arguement that it is a free choice transaction, I believe that many male and female prostitutes feel they have to sell their bodies, whether it is due to extreme poverty, a drug habit, homelessness, a dominant boyfriend/girlfriend aka a pimp and so forth. I worry about those who pay for sex, sex should be an intimate act between two people.

To those who have no problem with prostitution or who condone it, would you have a relationship with a prostitute? Would you mind if your sister/brother, mother/father, son/ daughter sold their body for sex? Would you be okay with living in or beside a red light district area?

These theorotical prostitutes that you all discuss are related to, living with, married with or friends of other people. You could have a relation or a friend or a partner that has sold their body, but would they freely admit this, hell no, because in reality, most people intrinsicly feel that prostitution is wrong. Just because it is the oldest profession around does not make it morally right.

excellent post

musicmonky

when you think of a prostitute, do you think of a Dr working in the area of cancer research?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/nov/15/belle-de-jour-blogger-prostitute

Valmont

I was looking forward to reading this thread hoping that as this is the "humanities" forum we might have some reasoned discussion on the subject. Instead we have some moralists preaching their particular creed and some narrow minded individuals whose only argument is (more or less) that "most prostitutes are exploited".

Where is the rationale? Where is the evidence?
Some prostitutes are exploited does not imply that All prostitutes are exploited. That is basic logic.

Coolguy, you rant on about the 'reality' of prostitution yet your argument is based on unbelievable stereotypes.

Are you really that naive to deny these women their individuality solely because their choice of job frightens your shallow moral outlook?

Valmont

miec wrote: »

Just because it is the oldest profession around does not make it morally right.

Please tell me where this cosmic, overarching, prescriptive morality comes from? You seem to know what constitutes moral behaviour for the rest of us so tell us, where does it come from? Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, subscribe to your idea of morality?

musicmonky

Valmont wrote: »

I was looking forward to reading this thread hoping that as this is the "humanities" forum we might have some reasoned discussion on the subject. Instead we have some moralists preaching their particular creed and some narrow minded individuals whose only argument is (more or less) that "most prostitutes are exploited".

Where is the rationale? Where is the evidence?
Some prostitutes are exploited does not imply that All prostitutes are exploited. That is basic logic.

Coolguy, you rant on about the 'reality' of prostitution yet your argument is based on unbelievable stereotypes.

Are you really that naive to deny these women their individuality solely because their choice of job frightens your shallow moral outlook?

Valmont very well put.
It surprises me that we are in the 21st century. Its a very difficult topic, but some of the OTT moralistic BS on this thread is, I believe not living in the real world.

SLUSK

If you think prostitution is bad it is because you've never been to a nice prostitute!

Joey the lips

I love the moralistic bullsh1t that does its best to convince those with morals that they are preaching and over ranting on the fact that prostitution is exploitation.

There is a few problems here. Firstly men assume that because most of them would love nothing better than being a prostitute that most women think the same.

We all assume that the industry is free to enter and free to leave..

Despite the programe on primetime recently and the various articles in the sunday papers we still assume this is still a relatively consentual industry.

You notice I have not introduced any fact here.

What I ask of you who think prostitution is safe and consentual show some examples of where both dont operate along side each other. By both I mean the illegal exploitation and "Legal" escort industry

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

There is a few problems here. Firstly men assume that because most of them would love nothing better than being a prostitute that most women think the same.

Actually I have never had that belief, and have never heard it from any of my friends who go to escorts.

Personally, i think you're doing one of the worst things that "people" try to do. Put a rationale on everything. This is about sex. It doesn't have to be logical.

We all assume that the industry is free to enter and free to leave..

Nope. Not for everyone. Not by everyone.

Despite the programe on primetime recently and the various articles in the sunday papers we still assume this is still a relatively consentual industry.

Nope. We just assume that those who are forced into the industry do not constitute the majority, otherwise we, who have visited prostitutes, would have seen more signs of it occurring.

You notice I have not introduced any fact here.

Yup. You have just replaced facts with "assume", along with "everyone". You're just hedging with words.

What I ask of you who think prostitution is safe and consentual show some examples of where both dont operate along side each other. By both I mean the illegal exploitation and "Legal" escort industry

I can't really be bothered. It doesn't matter. Even if 12 escorts were presented to you, who told you about their secure working lives, and stable personalities, you would continue to believe that you are right.

I stopped posting to this thread ages ago, and now months later, you're still objecting.. :rolleyes:

Joey the lips

Deleted User wrote: »

I stopped posting to this thread ages ago, and now months later, you're still objecting.. :rolleyes:

Touche! except i would be replacing objecting with "condoning despite the evidence!"

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

Touche! except i would be replacing objecting with "condoning despite the evidence!"

Condoning? Rubbish. You're taking the nice stance, but throwing up all the objections. Its just another way to argue a point. In your post, you don't condone anything... you just point out assumptions which support a case against prostitution...

Joey the lips

Deleted User wrote: »

Condoning? Rubbish. You're taking the nice stance, but throwing up all the objections. Its just another way to argue a point. In your post, you don't condone anything... you just point out assumptions which support a case against prostitution...

Your actually wrong. I have said in the past that I have no objection with the principle of prostitution in fact if I was not married and looking I would "Buy the service"

however it has never been shown that the legal and illegal industry does not operate along side each other.Why has it never been shown? Because it cannot! The only arguement that the pro side can say is " I am intelligent enough to know weather or not i am using a legal or illegal service"

Evidence has shown the opposite! This is the only reason i object to the whole industry!

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

Your actually wrong. I have said in the past that I have no objection with the principle of prostitution in fact if I was not married and looking I would "Buy the service"

however it has never been shown that the legal and illegal industry does not operate along side each other.Why has it never been shown? Because it cannot! The only arguement that the pro side can say is " I am intelligent enough to know weather or not i am using a legal or illegal service"

Evidence has shown the opposite! This is the only reason i object to the whole industry!

Well, there you go. You've convinced me that you're condoning the industry "despite the evidence"... :rolleyes:

You seriously need to make up your mind... are you for or against?

Or are you in the middle, and recognise that like all human endeavors there are good and bad situations.. depending on the individuals involved.

You should understand... I have used prostitutes in the past, and i have my own reservations about the industry. Just not the all encompassing dismissal that the anti-p group have, and not the blind approval of the pro-group. I believe that people in those camps of opinion, have actually no experience of the realities of prostitution, except from reading some article on the internet or tv. I've known prostitutes as friends, and prostitutes that were doing it simply because they had made the wrong choices in life. I've never known anyone forced into the industry, but then I'm not declaring that it doesn't happen. I certainly believe it does. Perhaps in as much of 30%-40% of those in the industry depending on the countries & cultures involved.

Its funny that its the people looking to condemn the industry, that want absolutes. They want definitive evidence. But the simple fact is that there is NO such evidence. Pro or against. The majority of prostitutes would have no interest in responding to questions about their lives (having the agenda of privacy), and those that do, usually have their own agenda's. So we're left with a section of the industry, and their responses are carried to support the views of whatever agency that collected the responses.

This topic will never be agreed upon. Because there is no right or wrong answer. There can be no one answer, because it comes down to individuals.
Stop looking for an absolute answer. It will be flawed. Although i suppose that won't matter to some.

Joey the lips

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, there you go. You've convinced me that you're condoning the industry "despite the evidence"... :rolleyes:

You seriously need to make up your mind... are you for or against?

Or are you in the middle, and recognise that like all human endeavors there are good and bad situations.. depending on the individuals involved.

You should understand... I have used prostitutes in the past, and i have my own reservations about the industry. Just not the all encompassing dismissal that the anti-p group have, and not the blind approval of the pro-group. I believe that people in those camps of opinion, have actually no experience of the realities of prostitution, except from reading some article on the internet or tv. I've known prostitutes as friends, and prostitutes that were doing it simply because they had made the wrong choices in life. I've never known anyone forced into the industry, but then I'm not declaring that it doesn't happen. I certainly believe it does. Perhaps in as much of 30%-40% of those in the industry depending on the countries & cultures involved.

Its funny that its the people looking to condemn the industry, that want absolutes. They want definitive evidence. But the simple fact is that there is NO such evidence. Pro or against. The majority of prostitutes would have no interest in responding to questions about their lives (having the agenda of privacy), and those that do, usually have their own agenda's. So we're left with a section of the industry, and their responses are carried to support the views of whatever agency that collected the responses.

This topic will never be agreed upon. Because there is no right or wrong answer. There can be no one answer, because it comes down to individuals.
Stop looking for an absolute answer. It will be flawed. Although i suppose that won't matter to some.

I am against it. I have that right surley. I have never tried cocaine but the evidence leads me to say I am against it. I am applying the normal logic.

It seems to me that you haveing used it and made friends with prostitutes seem to think that you know the answers thats fair! But you cannot deny the existence of the illegal trade. This has been proven and its based on the presence of the illegal trade i would object.

This has always been my view!

AARRRGH

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am against it. I have that right surley. I have never tried cocaine but the evidence leads me to say I am against it. I am applying the normal logic.

It seems to me that you haveing used it and made friends with prostitutes seem to think that you know the answers thats fair! But you cannot deny the existence of the illegal trade. This has been proven and its based on the presence of the illegal trade i would object.

This has always been my view!

Every industry has problems. For example, some of the clothes you wear were probably made by forced labour/child labour.

I do not believe prostitution is any worse or better than any other industry. There will always be scumbags no matter what you're selling.

Even if you fully legalise prostitution there will still be problems. That's just the way the world works.

However our current head in the sand policy of hoping it will go away is stupid. There is nothing wrong with having sex for money or paying for sex as long as both parties agree, so the Government needs to get it's act together and fully legalise the industry so there will at least be some protection and level of standard for both the workers and client.

Yes, there will still be problems, but it will surely be better than keeping it totally underground.

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am against it. I have that right surley. I have never tried cocaine but the evidence leads me to say I am against it. I am applying the normal logic.

Surley? I assume thats surely?

Ok. Fine. Just don't seek to "dress up" your stance... stand proud in your opinion, and seek to become informed, rather than basing it on ignorance. I don't like cocaine, because of what I've seen it do to other peoples lives, rather than any personal experience of it.

But we're back to comparing drugs with prostitution, which I dispelled months ago, and you're still using the analogy. I said it ages ago, and I'll say it again. It doesn't compare.

It seems to me that you haveing used it and made friends with prostitutes seem to think that you know the answers thats fair! But you cannot deny the existence of the illegal trade. This has been proven and its based on the presence of the illegal trade i would object.

I don't think anywhere in this thread I have ever denied illegal trade, or even that prostitutes have been mistreated. Read back, and find where I have, and you'll be hard pressed to find such. What I have said is that it exists, but nowhere to the extent by which certain posters make it out to be.

As for your whole proven thing, there have been articles, and studies with very biased agenda's behind them. But thats not very convenient to your argument. For every 10 women that come out with information about prostitution, there will be a 100 women that have zero interest in declaring such information. And yes, these numbers are plucked out of the air, but the logic speaks for itself. If you actually understood anything about the industry and the manner of these peoples lives, then you might appreciate it.

And I've spoken about both my own personal experience, the experiences shared with me by friends (both escorts and clients), and information I have learned through various media. I judge my information as being valid simply because its more realistic than the black/white moral stance.

This has always been my view!

maybe... but not the manner that you have phrased your stance. My previous two posts have pointed out discrepancies as to the way you declare this...

Joey the lips... do you have any accurate "evidence" of the :

1) realistic total population of prostitutes (male & female) in Ireland.
2) realistic total population of those "forced" into the trade.
3) realistic total population of those "enslaved" or transported illegally for prostitution.

I'd also like to see definitions of what they consider to be included in enslaved, or forced.. Do bad life choices count as "forced"?

Because most of this "evidence" I've seen talks about a 100 women in Ireland with bad experiences, without mentioning the literally thousands of women who don't come forward with information... and this group of a 100 represents an accurate reflection of all women in the industry.... So its not hard for me to smell "agenda" with most of this research.. But maybe you can provide accurate and unbiased evidence, since you're so sure of it.

(notice they never seem to mention anything about the male prostitution industry... are men not tricked, abused, etc as well?)

So you'll understand why I wonder the accuracy of this "evidence" and how proportionate it is considering the numbers of men/women in the industry in Ireland, (never mind about other countries).

I'd also like to know what organisations fund and do the research/investigations, and what they do with the prostitutes which have no problems with their situation?

And seriously, you're advocating this evidence, so please give me some quality information. If I can pick it apart in 30 seconds, then.... well... I think most people will understand what I'm thinking of your stance..

Moomoo1

not sure if this has been posted before, but Belle du Jour is out

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/editors-choice/2009/11/16/revealed-high-class-hooker-belle-du-jour-is-really-cancer-specialist-86908-21825498/

Moomoo1

musicmonky wrote: »

when you think of a prostitute, do you think of a Dr working in the area of cancer research?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/nov/15/belle-de-jour-blogger-prostitute

ah, someone beat me to it

I've read the first few months of her blog just now. Basically, she seems to come from this (very middle-class) part of society that is extremely sexually liberated. So it probably wasn't much of a lifestyle change to her. Her boyfriend even stayed with her for the first few months of he excorting too, and even said he didn't object to her doing it, presumably because he came from the same sexually liberated mentality.

AARRRGH

Moomoo1 wrote: »

ah, someone beat me to it

I've read the first few months of her blog just now. Basically, she seems to come from this (very middle-class) part of society that is extremely sexually liberated. So it probably wasn't much of a lifestyle change to her. Her boyfriend even stayed with her for the first few months of he excorting too, and even said he didn't object to her doing it, presumably because he came from the same sexually liberated mentality.

I'm waiting for the obligatory conservative to come along and say she was forced against her will and was constantly sexually assaulted by the men she agreed to have sex with...

My advice to you is to ignore the comment when it gets posted.

Moomoo1

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm waiting for the obligatory conservative to come along and say she was forced against her will and was constantly sexually assaulted by the men she agreed to have sex with...

My advice to you is to ignore the comment when it gets posted.

she wasn't. She's basically a swinger, who has expressed an opinion in her blog that 'if you don't do anal sex, then something's wrong with you'. Of course, even swingers generally have sex with people they find attractive, unlike call-girls, but still, she wasn't exactly you run of the mill girl.

This doesn't change the fact that so many women _are_ forced into prostitution against their will.