Prostitution

Valmont

I would have thought that if it is indeed on a "large scale" there would be a lot more media publicity surrounding the issue.

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How can men use a service where this sh*t is still happening? It's beyond me, If there's even a potentail risk that the girl you're paying for is being held in captivity I couldn't do it.

There is a potential risk in every interaction you might have with someone. By your reasoning, you would never leave your home, because people have been murdered on their doorsteps. You would never drink anything because of some cases of poisoning in the past. You would never buy diamonds because some children died in some mine in Africa.

People go to services, and buy products all the time which have the potential of being as a result of someone else s misfortune.

The point is that you would never buy the service in the first place regardless of whether the woman/man is forced. So your stance is immaterial. At least if you supported the industry or the concept, then such a stance regarding the potential risk would be of more relevance.

You're already against the industry..

On a side note, women use the industry too.. :rolleyes:

midlandsmissus

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a potential risk in every interaction you might have with someone. By your reasoning, you would never leave your home, because people have been murdered on their doorsteps. You would never drink anything because of some cases of poisoning in the past. You would never buy diamonds because some children died in some mine in Africa.

People go to services, and buy products all the time which have the potential of being as a result of someone else s misfortune.

The point is that you would never buy the service in the first place regardless of whether the woman/man is forced. So your stance is immaterial. At least if you supported the industry or the concept, then such a stance regarding the potential risk would be of more relevance.

You're already against the industry..

On a side note, women use the industry too.. :rolleyes:

I am against the way prostitution currently is, and this is because I work in the area of community and social development and have dealt with prostitution issues. Only a few months ago I attended a meeting with health executives on the topic of human trafficking and prostitution as they are worried about rising problems,I've seen reports of women who were in A&E, so I know the facts and statistics.

What you said on a side note, I'm well aware women use the industry too. Usually in an escort situation.
I am against prostitution as it currently is as it is so dangerous for alot of women involved. Some solution needs to be thought up of to minimilise risk.

You compared my reasoning to "If you think that, You would never leave home, because people have been murdered on their doorsteps".
No comparison.

How many people in Ireland have been murdered on their doorsteps in the last 20 years? 1? 2?

How many reports have I seen, how many brutal stories have I heard about prostitutes? A multitude. It's more common than you'd believe.

I think 'service users' tend to gloss over the actuality of alot of the darker aspects of prostitution.

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I am against the way prostitution currently is, and this is because I work in the area of community and social development and have dealt with prostitution issues. Only a few months ago I attended a meeting with health executives on the topic of human trafficking and prostitution as they are worried about rising problems,I've seen reports of women who were in A&E, so I know the facts and statistics.

Would these be facts and statistics that are being kept hidden from the view of the public? or would these facts and statistics be about visiting A&E rather than their actual professions...?

What you said on a side note, I'm well aware women use the industry too. Usually in an escort situation.

Then its worth including it when you're casting blame...

I am against prostitution as it currently is as it is so dangerous for alot of women involved. Some solution needs to be thought up of to minimilise risk.

By ensuring that the profession is illegal and that the women are ridiculed by society for being in the profession, the people who are against prostitution guarantee that the industry will remain dangerous.

The basic point is that there is no way to remove the profession. Period. Its a pipe-dream to think otherwise. The reality is that its here to stay. However, as long as its illegal and prostitutes have to live their professional lives outside the law, then they're not protected by it. Secondly, and just as important, you're guaranteeing that perceptions don't change. That its ok to treat escorts like objects, or that some will consider them "worthy" of attacks. Legalisation of the trade, is the clearest step towards reducing risks to prostitutes, but thats unlikely to happen. So all the concern about prostitutes lives and the risks they have to live by, mean very little, since they're not really concerned with changing prostitutes lives for the better. . Instead, they want to continue dreaming about a make believe world where there is no prostitution, no crime, and probably no politicial/social corruption.

You compared my reasoning to "If you think that, You would never leave home, because people have been murdered on their doorsteps".
No comparison.

How many people in Ireland have been murdered on their doorsteps in the last 20 years? 1? 2?

Well, since you yourself used a UK example, why not stick to it... How many people have been killed on their doorsteps in the last 20 years? I have no idea, but I dare say its more than the numbers of trafficking or forced prostitution in Ireland.

How many reports have I seen, how many brutal stories have I heard about prostitutes? A multitude. It's more common than you'd believe.

Depending on the reports, who made them, and the intended reception of the reports, its likely that my belief would vary. So... where are these reports? Lets see them.

I think 'service users' tend to gloss over the actuality of alot of the darker aspects of prostitution.

Funny, because if you had read back a few dozen pages, you'd probably have read postings from users acknowledging the darker aspects of prostitution, and being users... having a more direct understanding of what they entail.

I've found that users don't try to sugar-coat the experience. They know what they're paying for. Rather its the people who have no personal experience of the industry, that must compensate... Its the reason I call on any claims of evidence, statistics and facts.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a potential risk in every interaction you might have with someone.

That is a bit of a silly generalization.

If you are buying a can of Coke off someone who is being forced to work in a shop, the act of you buying the can of Coke doesn't contribute direct harm to them. The worst you are doing is facilitating his continued captivity. I wouldn't buy a can of Coke off someone who is being forced to work in a shop, but you wouldn't lose much sleep over the idea that you might have unwittingly done so.

On the other hand If you sleep with a prostitute who is being forced to sleep with you you are effectively raping her or him.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

That is a bit of a silly generalization.

If you are buying a can of Coke off someone who is being forced to work in a shop, the act of you buying the can of Coke doesn't contribute direct harm to them. The worst you are doing is facilitating his continued captivity. I wouldn't buy a can of Coke off someone who is being forced to work in a shop, but you wouldn't lose much sleep over the idea that you might have unwittingly done so.

To be perfectly honest, I used all those generalisations simply because I found the whole point a bit silly.

On the other hand If you sleep with a prostitute who is being forced to sleep with you you are effectively raping her or him.

And how is anyone going to know that the prostitute is being forced? There are the obvious signs like her being doped up, or bruising.. But then I've never accepted the services of anyone in that condition, so I guess its a moot point.

I have to wonder though how we are to determine if a woman/man is being forced into prostitution? If the prostitute says they're not, do we automatically assume that they're not being truthful...?

AARRRGH

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How can men use a service where this sh*t is still happening? It's beyond me, If there's even a potentail risk that the girl you're paying for is being held in captivity I couldn't do it.

I hope you don't wear any clothes so, as there's a good chance quite a few of the items in your wardrobe were made using forced child labour.

I also hope you don't use a cleaner in your home or office, as I know of a case when a few immigrant cleaners were kidnapped and forced to work against their will.

What about your jewellery? I hope none of it has diamonds in it... lots of violence and suffering in the diamond trade.

Do you eat meat? There's tons of horrific animal cruelty in the meat industry.

And on and on. If you analyse anything in detail you'll find horror stories.

AARRRGH

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to wonder though how we are to determine if a woman/man is being forced into prostitution? If the prostitute says they're not, do we automatically assume that they're not being truthful...?

You should start by trying to define what "forced" means.

I think "forced" means chained to a wall, whereas others think it means forced due to economic reasons, and others (the extremists) think forced applies to every prostitute...

I'm going to stick with the forced being about being drugged, blackmailed, or violence/assaulted to get someone to perform prostitution services.

Economic comes down to life choices in Ireland. There are plenty of other options available to people other than prostitution depending on their circumstances.

And the extremists are unreasonable, and usually unable to have a discussion, since they live in worlds of black/white without the capacity to understand the realities of life.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

And how is anyone going to know that the prostitute is being forced?

I think that is the point.

Deleted User wrote: »

There are the obvious signs like her being doped up, or bruising.. But then I've never accepted the services of anyone in that condition, so I guess its a moot point.

Not really, it is simply that the idea doesn't bother you. It does bother midlandsmissus.

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to wonder though how we are to determine if a woman/man is being forced into prostitution?

I would imagine in midlandsmissus's scenario you can't determine this, which I think was the point.

midlandsmissus is saying, if I understand correct, that she can't understand how anyone would take that risk when the consequences of their actions if the prostitute is actually being forced are so horrific.

Comparisons to other activities only hold if the consequences of being wrong are equally dire for the individual, which is why I mentioned buying a can of Coke (ie not particularly dire)

A scenario one could compare with would be say buying an organ from China on the black market. The person you are buying it from says the organs are sourced only from people who died in accidents, they don't kill people for the organs. That might be true, and really how can you tell otherwise. But I'm not sure that would put most people's minds at ease.

Deleted User wrote: »

If the prostitute says they're not, do we automatically assume that they're not being truthful...?

If you are worried about it that would be a safe course of action.

97i9y3941

who would care if they legalised it?,people are already funding the german/dutch tax exchequer by going abroad for it!

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

I hope you don't wear any clothes so, as there's a good chance quite a few of the items in your wardrobe were made using forced child labour.

I also hope you don't use a cleaner in your home or office, as I know of a case when a few immigrant cleaners were kidnapped and forced to work against their will.

What about your jewellery? I hope none of it has diamonds in it... lots of violence and suffering in the diamond trade.

Do you eat meat? There's tons of horrific animal cruelty in the meat industry.

And on and on. If you analyse anything in detail you'll find horror stories.

What do you think that demonstrates?

A lot of people don't wear clothes unless they are sourced from reputable organisations

A lot of people don't hire cleaners unless the clean agency can demonstrate they don't employ under the counter cleaners

A lot of people don't buy diamonds unless they can be shown they are not conflict diamonds

A lot of people don't eat meat altogether or don't buy meat from countries that don't have animal welfare laws.



I'm confused? Are you guys saying that

a) this isn't an issue or
b) it is an issue but it doesn't bother you because you don't worry about the 12 year old chained to the radiator who made your shoes either?

AARRRGH

Deleted User wrote:

And how is anyone going to know that the prostitute is being forced?

Wicknight wrote: »

I think that is the point.

You are trying to use an uncertainty to suggest forced prostitution might be a significant problem. It's ridiculous. You could apply your logic to anything.

For example -

You shouldn't eat meat because you don't know if the farmer beat the animals before killing them.

You shouldn't get a taxi because you don't know whether the taxi driver is a rapist.

You shouldn't drink alcohol because you don't know if you'll lose control and do something you'll regret.

...

Not knowing something with 100% certainty is not a reason to argue against something. As you stated in another post, you think men who use prostitutes should be imprisoned because they don't know for certain if the prostitute is being forced against her will, even though all the evidence suggests that is extremely unlikely. So using your logic we should probably ban farming and taxis and alcohol because we don't know for sure if they are ok.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm confused? Are you guys saying that

a) this isn't an issue or
b) it is an issue but it doesn't bother you because you don't worry about the 12 year old chained to the radiator who made your shoes either?

We're saying attacking prostitution based on myths and speculation is strange. And I used the above examples to point out that you can view everything from a bad light if you want to; all you have to do is look for the horror stories.

I think your emotions are clouding your judgement on this topic.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

We're saying attacking prostitution based on myths and speculation is strange.

Ok, so what was the point of your previous post?

Would you agree that if forced prostitution did happen in the prostitution industry that it would be dodgy to use a prostitute without be very absolutely sure that she was not being forced into it and that if you couldn't make sure (which you probably couldn't given the illegality of the industry) you shouldn't use one?

In which case you are agreeing with main point midlandsmissus was making, you are simply not accepting the initial premise that it happens to a degree that you would be worried about.

AARRRGH wrote: »

And I used the above examples to point out that you can view everything from a bad light if you want to; all you have to do is look for the horror stories.

Well yes, that is the point. All these things happen. The stuff you listed does happen all over the place and a lot of people do go to lengths to try and ensure they aren't contributing to making it worse.

So again what is your point with listing real examples of exploitation if your actual point is that wide spread forced prostitition in Ireland is a myth?

Do people not have to be concerned about raping a forced sex worker because it is myth that this takes place in Ireland or do people not have to worry about it because they don't worry about all the other things they are contributing to and this is just one more?

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think your emotions are clouding your judgement on this topic.

I wasn't aware I was making a judgement.

I do think you guys really don't know what your argument is here though, you just knee jerk reply any time anyone suggests anyone should be concerned about using a prostitute. Which might explain your some what muddled response to midlandsmissus' post.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are trying to use an uncertainty to suggest forced prostitution might be a significant problem. It's ridiculous.

No, I'm saying that it would be difficult to determine if the prostitute you are about to sleep with is a forced sex worker or not. And it was klaz's point, not mine.

Do you disagree?

AARRRGH wrote: »

You shouldn't eat meat because you don't know if the farmer beat the animals before killing them.

Which is why a lot of people don't buy things like Brazilian beef ...

Again I'm not following what you think your point here is. Are you saying that it is a myth that farmers abuse their live stock?

Or are you saying that people don't care that farmers abuse their live stock so why would you care about sleeping with a forced sex worker?

AARRRGH wrote: »

So using your logic we should probably ban farming and taxis and alcohol because we don't know for sure if they are ok.

We do ban farming and taxies and alcohol unless we know they are ok. :rolleyes:

What do you think Health & Safety legislation is? Helpful guidelines?

AARRRGH

I think you're arguing for the sake of it, or you're just an extremist. I think it's a bit of both.

I can't be bothered wasting any more time talking to you.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think you're arguing for the sake of it.

No, I'm "arguing" because you seem incapable of conceding even the most simply point. You already agree with most of what midlandsmissus was saying, that it would be wrong to sleep with a prostitute if you didn't know if she was a forced sex worker or not and that there was a chance she was (or at least you give the impression you do, getting a straight answer from you is like blood from a stone), you simply disagree with the idea that there would be a chance she would be. Which is a separate issue.

Yet you seem compelled to argue and dismiss everyone who doesn't share your exact out look on this issue, rather than actually thinking about what they are saying, so stuck to your ideology.

Valmont

I took it upon myself to engage in some investigative journalism as all I have been reading is a pointlessly pedantic argument!

If you browse the escort Ireland website, they have a page outlining what clients should look out for if it so happens that the escort they are visiting is perhaps a victim of the sex trafficking trade. They have phone numbers for the relevant authorities. Most of the escorts are listed as "independent", in that the website simply hosts their contact details, pictures, and customer reviews.

I know that this information doesn't really prove anything but I think it suggests that for the most part, if a sex worker has indeed been trafficked into the country, it would be obvious would it not? Their English would most likely not be very good and I would imagine that their general demeanour would greatly differ from a lady who is in it of her own accord.

My opinion would follow a sort of Fermi's paradox in that if prostitution does actually occur on the scale it is supposed to, then surely there would be more media coverage and news items concerning the supposed widespread forcing of women into the trade. I think to assume outright that a prostitute is probably being forced into her job is very demeaning to the women who endeavour of their own free will to make their money as escorts and surely, it is not a great leap to assume that the majority fall into this category.

I guess we can't be that sure really but I do find that the more prudish individuals like to play the sex trafficking card too often and place too much emphasis on it simply as the whole industry offends their sensibilities and they are all too ready to find any reason to simply condemn the entire thing altogether.

Some women are forced into prostitution, some are not, and some men will always pay for sex. These concrete facts should at least direct some sort of sensible policy to ensure the safety of all involved and to ensure that no one is forced into it. Pretending it doesn't exist or condemning the industry outright is simply ignorant and doesn't help anybody.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

I think that is the point.

Actually, the point is that you're being extremist about this, just as midlandsmissus is. Even if a prostitute says that she is there of her own free will, you will claim that she could be forced, and therefore we're doing the same thing as forcing them ourselves.

Regardless of whether the escort is being forced or not is irrelevant to that kind of statement. Its a ploy to make all prostitution wrong from the beginning based on the possibility angle.

Not really, it is simply that the idea doesn't bother you. It does bother midlandsmissus.

Now... thats out of line. I said that it was a moot point because I had never been with a prostitute with any obvious signs of being forced. Nowhere did I say any degree of forcing wouldn't bother me.

I would imagine in midlandsmissus's scenario you can't determine this, which I think was the point.

midlandsmissus is saying, if I understand correct, that she can't understand how anyone would take that risk when the consequences of their actions if the prostitute is actually being forced are so horrific.

midlandsmissus already has problems understanding why anyone would go to a prostitute in the first place, regardless of the forcing angle. This is just sugar on the top.

We, as adults, have our own perceptions and ability to understand what is going on around us. Most users of prostitutes are aware enough through our more "nervous" encounters and through experience to know when something is different with the "normal" set up.

Forced prostitution is most likely to occur in a bordello setting. They're likely to have a select membership, and not open to the general public. For two reasons. Firstly the clientele is going to be aware of what they're getting themselves into, and secondly, the security risk of the girls themselves running away.

Now... for 99% (yes, its a made up statistic, but please provide me more accurate info if you actually have any to disprove it) of prostitution in Ireland, it comes under escorts either coming to the clients place, going to a hotel room, or they have their own setup. Pimps aren't the norm over here as much as the rest of europe, and they're definitely not welcome by most people I know.

So.. where does the forcing come in?

Drop the possibility rubbish, and actually state your reasoning...

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, the point is that you're being extremist about this, just as midlandsmissus is.

Extremist is a rather subjective term. If you feel midlandsmissus is being extreme in her views fair enough but that isn't relative to the point at hand.

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if a prostitute says that she is there of her own free will, you will claim that she could be forced, and therefore we're doing the same thing as forcing them ourselves.

Given that I don't even understand what you just said I'm pretty sure I wouldn't claim that.

What midlandsmissus has said is that she cannot understand how anyone could use prostitution services if there is a chance that prostitute you sleep with is there against her will.

It is the same as saying that she couldn't understand how anyone could take a liver transplant if there is a chance that the person was killed for the liver. Or couldn't understand how anyone could take art work if there was a chance that it was stolen. etc etc

By all means disagree klaz midlandsmissus. If it wouldn't bother you it wouldn't bother you. Or if it would bother you but you don't think there is a chance that it might happen in Ireland, then that is perfectly valid argument as well, even if others disagree with you.

But what is with all this dancing around midlandsmissus central point? It was a pretty simply point, one I'm sure many would agree with.

Deleted User wrote: »

Its a ploy to make all prostitution wrong from the beginning based on the possibility angle.

I wasn't aware midlandsmissus was in a position to "make all prostitution wrong". I think you are confusing her with God.

Deleted User wrote: »

Now... thats out of line. I said that it was a moot point because I had never been with a prostitute with any obvious signs of being forced. Nowhere did I say any degree of forcing wouldn't bother me.

What?

Simple question klaz, do you accept that it is possible to be with a prostitute who is being forced but who does not show "obvious signs" of being forced.

Or do you believe that every who with a forced sex slave would know that they are with a forced sex slave, and thus willingly partake?

Why is it so difficult to get a straight answer from you guys?

Deleted User wrote: »

We, as adults, have our own perceptions and ability to understand what is going on around us. Most users of prostitutes are aware enough through our more "nervous" encounters and through experience to know when something is different with the "normal" set up.

"most users of prostitutes" ... and what? you have statistical evidence to back that up?

Why do you guys complain so much about people rolling out trumped up assertions as if they are facts and yet partake in doing so yourselves at the drop of a hat?

If I stated that 95% prostitute users couldn't tell if the prostitute they were sleeping with was in fact drugged both yourself and AARRRGH would (correctly) round on me for pretty much inventing a statistic

Deleted User wrote: »

Now... for 99% (yes, its a made up statistic, but please provide me more accurate info if you actually have any to disprove it) of prostitution in Ireland, it comes under escorts either coming to the clients place, going to a hotel room, or they have their own setup

You want me to disprove your made up statistic?

Valmont

Wicknight wrote: »

Simple question klaz, do you accept that it is possible to be with a prostitute who is being forced but who does not show "obvious signs" of being forced.

I think it would be fairly obvious if someone was there against their will as opposed to someone who routinely makes their living from it. Surely the people who visit these "forced" prostitutes must have some idea that it doesn't all add up- the setting, the girl, her behaviour, the pimp etc. I would find it very hard to believe that women forced into prostitution would not outwardly display the effects of this oppression. No, I don't have any "proof" but I think that that is a reasonable assertion. What do you think?

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

Extremist is a rather subjective term. If you feel midlandsmissus is being extreme in her views fair enough but that isn't relative to the point at hand.

True.. extremist is rather subjective... but I think its reasonable to use in this case. You're talking about possibilities as being fact.. The probability whether high or low doesn't seem to matter.. Which is why its extremist.

Given that I don't even understand what you just said I'm pretty sure I wouldn't claim that.

edging? Not like you. :rolleyes: My statement is straightforward enough.

What midlandsmissus has said is that she cannot understand how anyone could use prostitution services if there is a chance that prostitute you sleep with is there against her will.

It is the same as saying that she couldn't understand how anyone could take a liver transplant if there is a chance that the person was killed for the liver. Or couldn't understand how anyone could take art work if there was a chance that it was stolen. etc etc

Ok, good comparisons. The point remains though that there is always a chance of a something like that in just about every interaction we have with other people.

By all means disagree klaz midlandsmissus. If it wouldn't bother you it wouldn't bother you. Or if it would bother you but you don't think there is a chance that it might happen in Ireland, then that is perfectly valid argument as well, even if others disagree with you.

Nope. I have not said there's no chance. I have said that I haven't seen it myself. I'm sure it does happen.. However I'm not going to base my life on a "chance" especially one as ambiguous as the one you're advocating. I prefer being able to assess the situation as I approach it.

Will you never drive a car again, simply because other people have been killed by drivers? You could be that next driver to kill someone... Of course, not. You'll drive again, and you will be careful. You will trust your own abilities, your experience, and the quality of your vehicle.

Its pretty much the same with prostitution. I will judge based on my own previous experience, my awareness, and the environment of the encounter.

But what is with all this dancing around midlandsmissus central point? It was a pretty simply point, one I'm sure many would agree with.

Actually... I had answered it.. And I've answered again. :rolleyes:

I wasn't aware midlandsmissus was in a position to "make all prostitution wrong". I think you are confusing her with God.

Now, that's just annoying. Whats the point of posting that? Seriously. My point is obvious enough.

Simple question klaz, do you accept that it is possible to be with a prostitute who is being forced but who does not show "obvious signs" of being forced.

Yes. Of course, its possible.

Or do you believe that every who with a forced sex slave would know that they are with a forced sex slave, and thus willingly partake?

I think for the most part the signs would be obvious.. But then, there are always going to be more subtle ways of forcing people to do things.

Why is it so difficult to get a straight answer from you guys?

Actually, I have given you plenty of straight answers to your questions... I do notice though you have failed to answer my own questions to you...

"most users of prostitutes" ... and what? you have statistical evidence to back that up?

Why do you guys complain so much about people rolling out trumped up assertions as if they are facts and yet partake in doing so yourselves at the drop of a hat?

If I stated that 95% prostitute users couldn't tell if the prostitute they were sleeping with was in fact drugged both yourself and AARRRGH would (correctly) round on me for pretty much inventing a statistic

Because I'm not claiming I have evidence, statistics or facts. I actually said the 99% was a made up statistic. But I notice you jump on the statistic issue, but don't make any actual response to the information I spoke of? And you complain about not getting straight answers from people?

You want me to disprove your made up statistic?

Nope. No real point. I'd like you to answer my questions to you from my previous post though.

Valmont

Valmont wrote: »

I think it would be fairly obvious if someone was their against their will as opposed to someone who routinely makes their living from it. Surely the people who visit these "forced" prostitutes must have some idea that it doesn't all add up. I would find it very hard to believe that women forced into prostitution would not outwardly display the effects of this oppression. No, I don't have any "proof" but I think that is a reasonable assertion. What do you think?

Thank you. Tried to put it that way, but didn't work out properly. Spot on.

Zombrex

Valmont wrote: »

I think it would be fairly obvious if someone was there against their will as opposed to someone who routinely makes their living from it. Surely the people who visit these "forced" prostitutes must have some idea that it doesn't all add up- the setting, the girl, her behaviour, the pimp etc. I would find it very hard to believe that women forced into prostitution would not outwardly display the effects of this oppression. No, I don't have any "proof" but I think that that is a reasonable assertion. What do you think?

Possibly, I wouldn't really know having not met a prostitute who was working in forced prostitution.

I do obviously would think there is a flaw in the thinking I would know if I met one, I don't think I've met one, therefore I haven't met one

Relying on one's own personal perception is always going to be tricky.

But again it comes down how bothered or concerned someone is about this issue in the first place.

If people don't think it is likely they will be in a position where they have to assess if the person is forced or not I can see why they would not consider it that big a deal. The logic being the most likely aren't going to be a forced sex worker and if they were they would be obviously out of place from all the others that aren't.

But at the same time I would I guess be concerned that the idea that this doesn't happen to any significant degree would mean that going in someone isn't looking for signs in the first place.

Or to put it another way, can someone know they aren't meeting a forced sex worker if they haven't any real experience meeting forced sex workers? In such an instance you are merely going on what you think a forced sex worker would be like.

JimmyCrackCorn!

What do you mean "Now days". Its been a part of society since the Roman empire or even earlier Chinese Dynasties.

Acceptable or not its not going away. The best we can hope for is to protect the women/men involved and provide a way out if they want it without passing judgement.


Anyone found responsible for forced prostitution should have the book thrown at them though and treated as any sexual predator as that is a completely different issue.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

You're talking about possibilities as being fact

Where am I doing that?

Deleted User wrote: »

My statement is straightforward enough.

Your statement was inventing something I didn't say so you could give out about me saying it, rather than looking what I was actually saying.

If that is the way you want to go perhaps you should just argue with yourself.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, good comparisons. The point remains though that there is always a chance of a something like that in just about every interaction we have with other people.

That is true, I'm just not following what you think the point of stating that is.

Are you saying we don't worry about that in other areas so why worry about it in prostitution?

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. I have not said there's no chance. I have said that I haven't seen it myself. I'm sure it does happen.. However I'm not going to base my life on a "chance" especially one as ambiguous as the one you're advocating. I prefer being able to assess the situation as I approach it.

Ok. And how are you assessing this situation?

Deleted User wrote: »

Will you never drive a car again, simply because other people have been killed by drivers?

No, but I will vote for governments that enforce road safety laws, I will buy a car from a reputable dealer and ensure it passes its NCT, I will pass my driving test etc etc

This is why other comparisons to heavily regulated industries are some what nonsensical. We have an entire government system set up to ensure that road safety is adhered to. We have an entire system set up for

So again how are you assessing the prostitution situation? How are you assessing that the prostitute you visit is not a forced sex worker?

You just make a judgement when you get there? Do you think you have enough experience with forced sex workers to make that judgement given that based on your own posts you have never knowing met one before?

Deleted User wrote: »

You will trust your own abilities, your experience, and the quality of your vehicle.

No we don't. Which is why we have a large set of State laws and regulations covering this.

I don't trust myself to know when I'm qualified to drive. Which is why we have a State mandated driving test.

I don't trust myself to know when my car is road worthy. Which is why we have a State mandated car test.

I don't trust myself to tell if the food I buy is dangerous to eat, or if the cinema I'm in has proper fire safety, or if the areoplane I'm flying in isn't going to explode mid-air.

I don't trust yourself to do any of these things because I'm not qualified in any of these areas.

So why would you trust yourself to determine if a prositute you are with is a forced sex worker or not. Are you qualitifed in this area having never actually knowingly met one before?

Deleted User wrote: »

Now, that's just annoying. Whats the point of posting that? Seriously. My point is obvious enough.

Your point appears to be you don't want people trying to make you feel guilty for stuff you don't feel guilty about.

People hold differing opinions to you, you really need to get over that.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think for the most part the signs would be obvious.

And how much experience in this area do you have?

Deleted User wrote: »

Because I'm not claiming I have evidence, statistics or facts.

Yet you want me to respond as if they were?

Deleted User wrote: »

But I notice you jump on the statistic issue, but don't make any actual response to the information I spoke of?

Which information was that? Was it made up?

Do you mean that "Forced prostitution is most likely to occur in a bordello setting" statement.

Given I've no idea if that is true or not (did you make that up or are you getting that from some actual research) I'm not sure how I could respond.

Interesting if true not interesting if not true? Is that a good response?

Bottle_of_Smoke

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Eh sure they could have. Prostitution has always been around.

Yeah, if anything i think a priest would prefer an underground illegal prostitute as its probably more discreet than walking up to a lady in a window

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

Where am I doing that?

You don't see it? Then, lets just let it rest then. I've tried a number of times to highlight it, but nothings working.

Are you saying we don't worry about that in other areas so why worry about it in prostitution?

Nope. I haven't said anything of the sort. We're all aware of the risks of driving. It might not be a conscious & obvious thought, but the awareness is there. Just as it would be with prostitution.

Ok. And how are you assessing this situation?

Which has already been said. Through experience and awareness of the environment. Since you haven't been to a prostitute, you don't know what the experience is like, and nothing I say to you will make you understand any better. I've posted such info before, and you still pass it by.

No, but I will vote for governments that enforce road safety laws, I will buy a car from a reputable dealer and ensure it passes its NCT, I will pass my driving test etc etc

This is why other comparisons to heavily regulated industries are some what nonsensical. We have an entire government system set up to ensure that road safety is adhered to. We have an entire system set up for

So again how are you assessing the prostitution situation? How are you assessing that the prostitute you visit is not a forced sex worker?

Get past this. I've said a number of times how I would assess it.

You just make a judgement when you get there? Do you think you have enough experience with forced sex workers to make that judgement given that based on your own posts you have never knowing met one before?

I have enough experience with prostitutes in general to know if there is any tension "in the air"... To know if there is anything different to the normal situation.

No we don't. Which is why we have a large set of State laws and regulations covering this.<Snip>

Whatever. You're just being awkward for the sake of it. I can't be bothered playing this kind of game with you.

So why would you trust yourself to determine if a prositute you are with is a forced sex worker or not. Are you qualitifed in this area having never actually knowingly met one before?

repetition upon repetition.. How many times do you want me to answer the same question?

Your point appears to be you don't want people trying to make you feel guilty for stuff you don't feel guilty about.

Nope. You've introduced guilt out of nowhere. I've never mentioned it, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make up stuff. Stick to quoting me.

People hold differing opinions to you, you really need to get over that.

hmm... have I insulted anyone with a different opinion than me? Have I played games with their posts? hmmm... Wicknight, cop on. seriously.

And how much experience in this area do you have?

I have roughly a 8 years period during which I visited escorts a few times a year. Since then its been more irregular. So my experience rests with the prostitutes I have been with myself, and those girls I know as friends who made the transition from lap dancing to escort work. Thats my experience. With normal prostitution. No experience of forced prostitution.

Now... Where is your experience?

Yet you want me to respond as if they were?

Which information was that? Was it made up?

Do you mean that "Forced prostitution is most likely to occur in a bordello setting" statement.

Given I've no idea if that is true or not (did you make that up or are you getting that from some actual research) I'm not sure how I could respond.

Interesting if true not interesting if not true? Is that a good response?

And yet you have so many ideas about everything else. I'm done with you. I can totally agree with AARRRGH about his last post about you. For myself, I think you just argue for the sake of it.

g5fd6ow0hseima

I took a breather, and yes, its still retarded.