Prostitution

CoolGuy2006

Ok, im a guy, mid 20's.
My problem is with prostitution. Why has it become so acceptable nowadays.
Most of my friends have been with prostitutes and in my last job none of the guys were shy about talking about their past experiences either.

My friends would appear to have good morals on a day to day basis but every now and then they will head over to amsterdam to do the usual. This kinda thing is so common with men in General, far more common then i ever would have believed. I always pictured old desperate men going to prostitues but my mates are all young and good looking and would have no problem meeting up with a nice girl, whenever they want.

Even a good mate of mine came back from travelling and told me he met a prostitue in a park and did the business. WTF

He now has a lovely girlfriend who i know would be disgusted if she new this. You just wouldnt imagine this guy doing this kinda thing.

So, whats my problem i hear you say. Well, my problem is that i think Guys and most people now like to sugar coat the whole thing. Saying that the girls make good money and are saving up for houses, cars, blah blah blah. I think people put the real truth to the very back of their minds. Some of these women are in very desperate situations, some of thes women are sex slaves, kidnapped women kept in brothels

I was talking to one of my girlfriends about it and she said that she and her friends know that most guys do this kinda thing so there isnt anything they can really do about it. She just accepts it. I dunno, i think most girls would be shocked to find out how common this kinda thing really is.

I am moving to Hamburg in two weeks, prostitution is legal there and at night the prostitutes are all over the main party streets. My girlfriend who is German said the usual, blah blah blah, they are saving for cars and houses.

I showed her an article in a german magazine that talked about the trafficking of sex slaves into germany and the rest of western europe. Its like my girlfriend and her friends had never even given this a thought before. In the article a prostitute was interviewed. They quoted her as saying that she gets a little sense of satisfaction from sleeping with these men because they are probably less likely to go home and abuse their kids - WTF

Its strange walking down the Reeperbahn in hamburg and you see groups of lads, irish, English, Scottish, all just walking around in groups and going over to make arrangements with the prostitues. These are guys who think they can go abroad and fulfill their sexual needs and come home and leave it all behind.You can see it in their eyes, you can see the guilt, but they all act jack the lad with their mates.

I think people look at prostitution two ways.

1: is that they see the women as business women who are getting a good deal and saving for a good future.

2: its degrading to women and men and there is always the chance that the person is a sex slave who has been trafficked out of their home country

Why does everyone just accept it as part of modern life. Why do guys who normaly are of good character feel that when they go abroad they can throw money at a girl in a desperate situation, then come home and lead the normal good moral high life again

Recently in PI there was a post about prostitution and i was to supprised to hear some girls saying they had no problem with prostituion. I just think that the real reality is alot different than what some people would lead you to believe.

Stand on the reeperbahn for 5 mins, watch the groups of lads, probably from your hometown walk around with a beer in one hand, going up the the girls with the confidence they only wished they had with a girl back home. A few days later they arrive in dublin airport and agree with their mates, "What happened there, stays there" :-(

Obviously it could be anywhere, amsterdam, germany, spain, thailand.
I just think its a real shame what men allow themselves to do for their own gratification and then come home and pretend to be a different person in front of the girls they meet here. I dont think most girls here have a clue what really goes on.


Should i come down off my high Horse.

DadaKopf

Prostitution is exploitation. Many - men and women - defend prostitution as a form of women's liberation. Women are, the argument goes, exploiting men. So everything's OK, yeah? But what about, say, male prostitutes so 'exploit' their female or male 'clients'? Do people make the argument that male prostitution is a form of male or gay liberation? Or maybe the prostitutes who are sold to trafficers and pimps is also liberation?

Since when does exploitation = liberation?

Prostitution is a form of violence that can never stop with legalisation. Even if a city or government legalises prostitution, red light districts would probably have to be huge to absorb the whole sex industry. I doubt people would condone prostitution if this became the case because it would be so repulsive. So there will always be a periphery of illegal operations which commit the worst forms of violence while the nice'n'legal side of it gives it a clean face. Legalisation normalises prostutution and conceals its violence.

As capitalism is exploitation by another name, prostitution is one of its worst forms.

DOLEMAN

It's not exploitation. Thinking that is so wrong.

I know some prostitutes. They choose to do the sex acts. The customer chooses to participate in the sex acts. The prostitute makes lots of money. End of story.

I am sorry, but sex is not degrading or something you should be ashamed of.

DadaKopf

You might like to read this.

Owen

DOLEMAN wrote:

I know some prostitutes. They choose to do the sex acts. The customer chooses to participate in the sex acts. The prostitute makes lots of money. End of story.

I am sorry, but sex is not degrading or something you should be ashamed of.

Amen. Talking with acquaintances who have partaken, Prostitutes are in it for the money, not because they're trapped, or in terrible situations. Many actually quite enjoy it. It's a job that probably nets a few grand a week, for working maybe 3 days.

A quick google also shows the majority of Irish ones to be quite good looking, and well educated (Or as well as you can judge by their literary and marketing skills).

It's a well developed business in Germany and Holland, and it's the oldest trade on the planet. Get over it, close the thread, move on. Your issues with friends cheating on their spouses is a different one entirely, and lies with their emotional issues, not the third party they're involving.

ianmc38

DOLEMAN wrote:

I am sorry, but sex is not degrading or something you should be ashamed of.

Agreed.

Selling your body or sex for money is totally different.

DOLEMAN

ianmc38 wrote:

Agreed.

Selling your body or sex for money is totally different.

How? That doesn't make sense. If sex is not degrading, how is selling it degrading?

hepcat

Prostitution has always and will always exist, whether you like ot or not. Legalsing prostition as least provides some form of protection and healthcare for prostitutes, and as with drugs, would help stop trafficking.

The whole area of prostition will always have its bad side - with drug addicts and vulnerable people being drawn in for the wrong reasons. Again, legalisation would actually help here, and regular HIV screening would benefit both the prostitutes and their customers.

I don't like the whole "lads heading over to the dam to get screwed" idea - but I don't particularly have a problem with prostitution. I can see merit in the argument that providing sexual services for people who cannot access them otherwise is not a bad thing. A need for sex is normal.

DOLEMAN

Also, I would like to add...

I can go to a bar tonight and bring a girl home and have sex with her FOR FREE.

What's the difference between that and prostitution? You may say "she agreed to it", well the prostitute is agreeing to it too...

And...

If I'm rich I can impress a girl with a lovely house, money, gifts etc. (don't say it ain't true!) Is that not prostitution?

While you're obviously completely entitled to be anti-prostitution, you should take in all versions of it, not just the "hooker" version...

/this is something I feel quite strongly about
//apologies if I'm being aggressive etc.

Dades

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

its degrading to women and men and there is always the chance that the person is a sex slave who has been trafficked out of their home country

Who are you to say what's degrading for women? That, surely is the choice of each and every woman.

Yes, there may be a chance the person is a sex slave who has been trafficed out of their home country - but this is not essentially an issue with the profession itself. There is a chance the Nikes you wear were stiched by a kidnapped child worker in South East Asia- but this doesn't mean that cobbling shouldn't be a valid profession.

Any form of kidnapping/slavery is just wrong. The criminals who engage in this are the ones that require action.

simu

Stay on your high horse, say I!

In theory, prostitution should be like any other trade - in reality, it's not and the whole industry is tainted with exploitation of vulnerable people, human-rights abuses and so on.

What your friends are doing is like sexual colonialism tbh. If they're that ok with the whole thing, why not act the same way in Ireland and be open about it? Why not become male prostitites themselves? Why suddenly adopt a new set of ethical standards the second you step off a plane?

DOLEMAN

simu wrote:

In theory, prostitution should be like any other trade - in reality, it's not and the whole industry is tainted with exploitation of vulnerable people, human-rights abuses and so on.

Just like lots of other industries. For example, the IT industry. The hardcore computer freaks are certainly damaged people (severe social issues etc.)

The minimum wages jobs exploit workers (you can't live on minimum wage.)

The whole sportswear industry is full of human rights abuse (yet we still wear Nike etc.)

...

I really don't think you can single out one industry (prostitution) if you're going to talk about exploitation.

simu

DOLEMAN wrote:

Just like lots of other industries. For example, the IT industry. The hardcore computer freaks are certainly damaged people (severe social issues etc.)

The minimum wages jobs exploit workers (you can't live on minimum wage.)

The whole sportswear industry is full of human rights abuse (yet we still wear Nike etc.)

...

I really don't think you can single out one industry (prostitution) if you're going to talk about exploitation.

I've never heard of those industries you name being involved with human trafficking etc tho'!

Human rights abuses by multinational companies in poorly developed countries is not something I consider to be acceptable, either! o_O

And as for your remarks on "hard core computer freaks" - all I can say is wtf? See beyond the nerd stereotype!

DOLEMAN

simu wrote:

And as for your remarks on "hard core computer freaks" - all I can say is wtf? See beyond the nerd stereotype!

I work in IT. They exist!!

The prostitution trafficing thing... I think that's made out to be bigger than it is. However, I accept it exists and it is of course terrible.

/please note that my opinions are about prostitution in Ireland

Tar.Aldarion

Nothing wrong with prostitution at all.
Obviously if somebody has been forced to do it or is being exploited to do it then it is.
Now, I would never hire a prostitute but I see nothing wrong with it.
Something is not degrading unless the person in question thinks it is.
A lot of people seem to think there is something wrong or bad about sex and in particular when money is involved. Why?
There is no reason it should be illegal here.

Samos

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Nothing wrong with prostitution at all.
Obviously if somebody has been forced to do it or is being exploited to do it then it is.

However, the vast majority of prostitutes are being exploited. Perhaps if it were legalised there would be better safeguards against this. But even with this, the industry might still attract vulnerable women who are desperate and trapped doing something they would rather avoid...

Tar.Aldarion

Samos wrote:

However, the vast majority of prostitutes are being exploited.

In Irealand?
Now, I think that no matter what problems there are currently in that industry, that does not warrant it being made illegal.
Much like people being exploited into making shoes.
In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with prostitution.

Perhaps if it were legalised there would be better safeguards against this.

I imagine there would be very strict guidelines for prostitution companies.

But even with this, the industry might still attract vulnerable women who are desperate and trapped doing something they would rather avoid...

Anything can attract vunerable people, men and women, who need money.
Money is money and if they choose it over making some chips in McDonalds fair enough. It would just be a job. Everybody want to avoid what they have to do to make money...
Your point is assuming the woman finds sex for money degrading.
Some might, some might find working in a fast food place degrading.

Black Swan

Why does Western society have so many unpleasant words for this profession? For example, harlot, hooker, hussy, sl*t, streetwalker, tart, tramp, trollop, wanton woman, wench, and more. Now go to Japan and what to you find? Why the difference?:rolleyes:

DOLEMAN

Samos wrote:

However, the vast majority of prostitutes are being exploited.

?????

Care to back up that claim with some evidence?

CoolGuy2006

My whole point was, that while you could write down the merits of prostitution on paper and you could present the idea in a win win situation for all the men and women invloved it just doesnt translate like this on the streets.

Legalisation doesnt really solve the situation. Prostitution is legal in germany and holland and yet human trafficking is rife in these countries.

They are expecting a huge surge in trafficked women in germany during the world cup, where prostitution is legal.

My point is, many men go to Amsterdam or germany and they convince themselves as other people here have said that it is a win win situation for everone. Woman wants money, man wants sex. The facts show that it isnt as clear cut as this

In real life, no matter how legal the whole thing may be setup, there are criminal gangs involved and alot of women are stuck in a sex slave situation. The facts are out there, whether you choose to ignore them or not. So yes, you might go to an established brothel but that doesnt mean that the girls working there are free to return home by external guardians.

CoolGuy2006

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Why does Western society have so many unpleasant words for this profession? For example, harlot, hooker, hussy, sl*t, streetwalker, tart, tramp, trollop, wanton woman, wench, and more. Now go to Japan and what to you find? Why the difference?:rolleyes:

Well i wouldnt use them words. i could give you an endless list of words i would use to describe their pimps

The words you have listed above would be the words i hear my friends use, the same friends who use these women.

CoolGuy2006

TAKEN FROM IOL.ie today

Vice squad detectives are running three separate investigations into suspected people trafficking gangs in a bid to clamp down on sex slavery, gardaí revealed today.

As a new report warned Ireland is at increasing risk from eastern European smugglers, gardaí said around 10 women had been rescued from forced prostitution in Dublin brothels in the last three years.

Officers warned the issue could not be ignored but stressed many foreign women were working of their own accord and only offering sex for sale to members of their own ethnic communities.

The figures were revealed as gardai urged the public and victims of trafficking to come forward with any information on smuggling rings.

Garda Chief Superintendent Derek Byrne said one case involved a young woman from the Baltic states forced to work in a brothel to pay for being smuggled into the country.

“We could talk about a 21-year-old eastern European female being trafficked into the country to pay off a debt incurred in her own country. And a similar case of that would be being investigated at the moment. We are investigating that extensively and we hope to bring charges in the future,” the Chief Supt said.

The International Organisation for Migration revealed it had supported more than half a dozen cases of people who were trafficked.

Women claimed to have been smuggled from African countries of Nigeria, Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo while others came from Romania, Moldova, Croatia and Brazil.

Michael McDowell warned that eastern Europe was one of the main sources for traffickers.

“Human trafficking is a form of modern day slavery. Victims of human trafficking are subjected to force, fraud, or coercion, for the purpose of sexual exploitation or forced labour,” he said.

“It is a growing international crime and has become a major global business for organised crime groups and networks. To date the incidence of such trafficking in Ireland is limited, but we face the same threats as those faced by many other countries worldwide.”

The work of two dedicated garda vice investigations was detailed. Operation Hotel, set up in November 2005, targets the trafficking of females from eastern Europe as sex workers.

Two non-nationals have been prosecuted and deported and further suspects in the same people smuggling ring have been identified.

Meanwhile, Operation Quest has seen officers interview several hundred strippers working in lap dancing clubs up and down the country but found only one instance of trafficking.

A Bulgarian man is suspected of bringing the girl here and officers believe he operates under a number of aliases across Europe and is no longer in Ireland.

The new poster, showing a woman and asking the question ‘Sex Slave?’, will target the victims of trafficking urging people to call Crimestoppers 1800 250025.

Translated into five languages, Romanian, Russian, Chinese, French and Portuguese the posters will be displayed at ports, airports, train and bus stations, A&E units, hotels and pubs.

Diane Grammer, chief of mission at the International Organisation for Migration, said it was important to recognise the issue.

“The victims of trafficking are often promised jobs and money and then forced into prostitution,” she said.

“We hope that through this information campaign, victims of trafficking and the people who may come in contact with them will be made aware that assistance is available.”

"A United Nations report Trafficking in Persons – Global Patterns, published last month, noted that there is a casual approach to sex trafficking with traffickers easily buying and selling people to establish prostitution of foreign women all around the world.

Citing 127 countries from which women are trafficked and 137 countries that are favoured as destinations, Global Patterns confirms the vast majority of trafficked people are women, bought and sold to be put to work in the sex trade.

Germany is one of the most popular destinations with 40,000 sex workers likely to be smuggled into the country in the next month, in anticipation of huge demand for prostitutes during the World Cup."

CoolGuy2006

I dont wanna sound like i think i have the right to judge people. Alot of people very close to me have used prostitues and it has affected our friendship.
I had to bring a friend to get a aids test because his condom broke while he was having sex with a prostitute.

He got the all clear, afterwards her told me he wasnt having sex with her vagina (if you get my drift). I felt sick and so angry (not becasue of the act itself but because it was with with a prostitute, a total stranger. I dont talk to this friend much anymore and have lost alot of respect for him. Which is a really big shame because if it wasnt for the prostitute thing he is a really sound bloke.


How would the guys feel here if your girlfriends went off to amsterdam and got pissed and had sex with male prostitutes in the past. If they spent a whole weekend just going from brothel to brothel. If they told you they have done this in the past, could you respect them? Or would you still be of the same mind that prostitution is totally ok and acceptable. Would you understand that she just wanted sex and paid for a service.

As i have said, the sugar coated idea of what prostituion could be is alot different to what it actually is.

Earthhorse

ned78 wrote:

A quick google also shows the majority of Irish ones to be quite good looking, and well educated.

It also shows a lot of links to reports on prostituion being linked with homelessness, child prostitution on the increase in Ireland and so forth.

Also, the fact that someone is educated does not prevent them from being exploited.

DOLEMAN wrote:

The prostitution trafficing thing... I think that's made out to be bigger than it is. However, I accept it exists and it is of course terrible.

/please note that my opinions are about prostitution in Ireland

Oh, you think it's made out to be bigger than it is do you? How convenient. Don't suppose you'd care to back up your thoughts on this with some evidence or is it pure speculation on your part?

And if you think prostitution in Ireland is somehow untouched by human trafficking you're sorely mistaken.

In recent years I think prostitution has gotten a better marketing department, that's all. Sure, the girls all love it (and heck, maybe some of them do), and they're making loads of money, ****loads (and money makes everything okay), and you're only being prudish because sex is natural and so forth.

But of course none of this has anything to do with the harsh reality of how many of these girls are treated. They're not going to tell their clients they hate doing it, it's not exactly a wise thing to do, and if you really believe it's the truth in all cases I think you're being extremely naive.

DOLEMAN

Earthhorse wrote:

Oh, you think it's made out to be bigger than it is do you? How convenient. Don't suppose you'd care to back up your thoughts on this with some evidence or is it pure speculation on your part?

As I said earlier, I know quite a few prostitutes (a former life), and all of them were independent and wealthy. None of them had ever heard of any kind of slavery etc.

The media likes to talk about "female sex slaves" because it's a great story.

padser

DadaKopf wrote:

You might like to read this.

Which I did, it has almost nothing to do prostitution, simply a woman who got abused and views all hetrosexual intercourse as in some way degrading to woman and and 'invasion' of the female body (which incidently although the article denies this - I would view as meaning rape). She is some crack pot anarchist who was abused by her husband, fled, got into prosutition for a while and it helped her survive.

Wikipedia wrote:

In 1987 Dworkin published Intercourse (ISBN 0684832399), in which she extended her analysis from pornography to sexual intercourse itself, and argued that the sort of sexual subordination depicted in pornography was central to men's and women's experiences of heterosexual intercourse in a male supremacist society.

Citing from both pornography and literature -- including The Kreutzer Sonata, Madame Bovary, and Dracula -- Dworkin argued that depictions of intercourse in mainstream art and culture consistently emphasized heterosexual intercourse as the only kind of "real" sex, portrayed intercourse in violent or invasive terms, portrayed the violence or invasiveness as central to its eroticism, and often united it with male contempt for, revulsion towards, or even murder of, the "carnal" woman. She argued that this kind of depiction enforced a male-centric and coercive view of sexuality, and that, when the cultural attitudes combine with the material conditions of women's lives in a sexist society, the experience of heterosexual intercourse itself becomes a central part of men's subordination of women, experienced as a form of "occupation" (cf. Chapter 7, "Occupation/Collaboration") that is nevertheless expected to be pleasurable for women and to define their very status as women.

Seriously WTF????

padser

Iv actually found more. look at this

'Dworkin wrote that "The parent-child relationship is primarily erotic because all human relationships are primarily erotic," and that "The incest taboo, because it denies us essential fulfillment with the parents whom we love with our primary energy, forces us to internalize those parents and constantly seek them. The incest taboo does the worst work of the culture [...] The destruction of the incest taboo is essential to the development of cooperative human community based on the free-flow of natural androgynous eroticism" (Dworkin 1974, p.189). Dworkin, however, does not explain whether "fulfillment" is supposed to involve actual sexual intimacy, and one page earlier characterized what she meant by "erotic relationships" as relationships whose "substance is nonverbal communication and touch" (188), which she explicitly distinguished from what she referred to as "****ing" (187).'


Seriosuly DadaKopf, what point were you trying to make quoting this woman/?

DadaKopf

What feminists like Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon say in their writings is that because our society is patriarchal, it's questionable whether female prostitutes exercise real choice in the issue at all. That's because when the woman prostitute simulates pleasure for the male client, in their opinion, the act amounts to a particular and generalised maintainence of male social domination. She doesn't mean rape literally, but actual rape is an extreme form of this.

In terms of her writings sounding crazy, they might, except that her analytical approach was inspired by modern psychoanalysis and discourse analysis, particuarly Edward Said's Orientalism. So you just gotta get into it.

In a similar way, I remember on the Big Bite recently, a discussion about 20-something sex and drinking. It was a good, open debate. One woman commented that today, girls see control and liberation as getting wrecked, being one of the lads, but ultimately, while women may be breaking through arbitrary social barriers, liberation has actually become a new form of female vulnerability and reinscribed paternal domination. That's what she said. The other woman in the debate, some RTE radio journalist, was shocked to hear a social worker and researcher say these things, she thought she was just having a laugh, living the life and scoring one for women's lib.

Anyway, for more on Dworkin's views, here is a 1995 speech on prostitution.

Samos

DOLEMAN wrote:

?????

Care to back up that claim with some evidence?

Nah, couldn't be arsed. Don't have time for this. Statistics are difficult to come by in illegal trades anyway...

I think the main points have been discussed here already.

padser

DadaKopf wrote:

What feminists like Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon say in their writings is that because our society is patriarchal, it's questionable whether female prostitutes exercise real choice in the issue at all. That's because when the woman prostitute simulates pleasure for the male client, in their opinion, the act amounts to a particular and generalised maintainence of male social domination. She doesn't mean rape literally, but actual rape is an extreme form of this.

In terms of her writings sounding crazy, they might, except that her analytical approach was inspired by modern psychoanalysis and discourse analysis, particuarly Edward Said's Orientalism. So you just gotta get into it.

In a similar way, I remember on the Big Bite recently, a discussion about 20-something sex and drinking. It was a good, open debate. One woman commented that today, girls see control and liberation as getting wrecked, being one of the lads, but ultimately, while women may be breaking through arbitrary social barriers, liberation has actually become a new form of female vulnerability and reinscribed paternal domination. That's what she said. The other woman in the debate, some RTE radio journalist, was shocked to hear a social worker and researcher say these things, she thought she was just having a laugh, living the life and scoring one for women's lib.

Anyway, for more on Dworkin's views, here is a 1995 speech on prostitution.

This is kind of Bullsh1t that really annoys me about womens rights movements. Regardless of what the movements achieve its never enough.

You have to realise that some ppl just like b!tching. Thats what makes them happy. They no longer have anything to moan about so they resort to making up gripes.

Senario; woman is renting house, wants to buy house. Has no education etc cant walk into well paid job but can prostitute herself 3 nights a week, make a few thousand a week and have enough cash in a year or so to put substantial deposit down on a house.
She is exercising a choice.
Its not questionable whether she excersised choice in the issue, she did. She could have chosen to continue to rent. That, indeed is what more most women in her situation do.

DadaKopf

Hey, where are the chicks? Ladies, would you prostitute yourselves if you were a bit short of cash?

I've heard a lot of "I've nothing against prostitution, but I'd never do it", but when I ask why, the answer is, "I just wouldn't choose to do it". Why wouldn't you 'choose' to do it?

Most people's arguments make the crucial assumption of freedom of choice. What if it is never so simple? Or maybe the freedom of choice argument is a sideshow to the reality of prostitution which is, really, an aspect of human trafficing and poverty?

Look, I've usually gone with the freedom of choice argument, but I'm sort of thinking against myself to think around questions I've been having about that.