Prostitution

AARRRGH

Moomoo1 wrote: »

This doesn't change the fact that so many women _are_ forced into prostitution against their will.

That's actually a myth. The evidence very clearly shows very few women are forced into prostitution against their will. In Ireland anyway.

Note by "few" I mean a tiny percentage. I don't mean it's insignificant or we shouldn't care.

Moomoo1

what's this evidence?

AARRRGH

Moomoo1 wrote: »

what's this evidence?

The evidence is the lack of evidence. I also have a quote (I can get it if you want) from the Gardai's head of vice saying there isn't a problem.

The only people saying there is a problem is Ruhama (the articles you read in the papers are nearly always by Ruhama), however Ruhama admit they believe every act of prostitution is sexual assault, and every single prostitute is being forced against her will, so obviously they are going to have horrible things to say about prostitution.

There has been a huge thread on Ruhama in the past where I explained a lot of their crazy theories on things.

I know it sounds crazy, but seriously, nearly every story you've read in the paper about forced prostitution in Ireland has been by Ruhama. When the Gardai challenged them to prove the things they are saying, they wrote to the Government asking for the law to be changed so the Gardai no longer are the ones who investigate prostitution.

Some of the stuff they do, if it was in a movie you wouldn't believe it.

Moomoo1

I think the truth lies in the middle, as always: it's silly to say that everyone who goes into prostitution does so against their will, but I don't think that things are nearly as rosy as you seem to suggest. There is clear evidence of a Europe-wide network of sex slaves, where women in non-EU countries are told that they will come to country X to be employed conventionally, and then on arrival have their passports taken away and are made to work in the sex industry. There is also clear evidence of women hooked on drugs in order to entrap them into the business.

AARRRGH

Moomoo1 wrote: »

I think the truth lies in the middle, as always: it's silly to say that everyone who goes into prostitution does so against their will, but I don't think that things are nearly as rosy as you seem to suggest. There is clear evidence of a Europe-wide network of sex slaves, where women in non-EU countries are told that they will come to country X to be employed conventionally, and then on arrival have their passports taken away and are made to work in the sex industry. There is also clear evidence of women hooked on drugs in order to entrap them into the business.

I am only talking about Ireland. I have no idea what the rest of the EU is like.

Moomoo1

I don't see why Ireland should be significantly different.

AARRRGH

Moomoo1 wrote: »

I don't see why Ireland should be significantly different.

I don't want to argue with you, so let's keep this friendly, but you do say:

There is clear evidence of a Europe-wide network of sex slaves, where women in non-EU countries are told that they will come to country X to be employed conventionally, and then on arrival have their passports taken away and are made to work in the sex industry. There is also clear evidence of women hooked on drugs in order to entrap them into the business.

Can you show me the evidence that this is a significant problem in Ireland?

Note I am willing to accept it has happened to a few women (i.e. a small handful out of the many thousands of prostitutes in Ireland), but for me to believe it is in any way common or in any way a large problem, I will need to see some facts.

kmick

I watched a documentary on forced prostitution from former eastern european bloc countries and its sobering stuff. Now I am not saying it is widespread in Ireland but it is widespread in Europe and by definition that means its on our doorstep. Its worth watching. Its all down to poor women and extreme violence and regardless of whther or not you believe this type of thing is going on in Ireland it is happening within a first world regime near to you.

http://www.priceofsex.org/content/price-sex-women-speak

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

The evidence is the lack of evidence.

Lack of evidence something happens is not evidence it doesn't happen. You had no basis to claim it doesn't happen since there is no record of prostitutes in this country that measures if they were trafficked or not.

This is shown pretty clearly by the fact that State recorded cases of trafficking in Ireland sky rocketed from 4 last year to 46 this year. Was there 10 fold increase in the number of trafficking taking place? Most likely not, what changed was that the CSO were not reporting trafficking as a specific crime until last year.

Now groups such as FG are falling over themselves to politicize this problem, and some what expectedly Ruhamma are screaming from the roof tops.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/fine-gael-aims-to-confront-sex-trafficking-432541.html

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

Lack of evidence something happens is not evidence it doesn't happen. You had no basis to claim it doesn't happen since there is no record of prostitutes in this country that measures if they were trafficked or not.

This is shown pretty clearly by the fact that State recorded cases of trafficking in Ireland sky rocketed from 4 last year to 46 this year. Was there 10 fold increase in the number of trafficking taking place? Most likely not, what changed was that the CSO were not reporting trafficking as a specific crime until last year.

Now groups such as FG are falling over themselves to politicize this problem, and some what expectedly Ruhamma are screaming from the roof tops.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/fine-gael-aims-to-confront-sex-trafficking-432541.html

The CSO figures are for human trafficking.

Why are you trying to link them to prostitution?

The CSO do not mention prostitution.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

Lack of evidence something happens is not evidence it doesn't happen. You had no basis to claim it doesn't happen since there is no record of prostitutes in this country that measures if they were trafficked or not.

Actually he said that its few rather than it doesn't happen at all. And considering there's no official/accurate of the total population of prostitutes in Ireland, its hard to really assess its impact. If there were 10,000 prostitutes in Ireland, would it be a terrible statistic to say that 9954 women were in the industry of their own free will?

Moomoo1

Moomoo1 wrote: »

I don't see why Ireland should be significantly different.

Why not? Geographical differences, cultural differences, wealth differences, even the cost of hiring a prostitute in relation to the rest of europe etc. plenty of obviously different aspects in which Ireland is different to the rest of Europe. (Which factor in).

The point is that lumping Ireland in with the rest of europe is simply to make it easier for people to find supporting statistics. I find that research/investigations into this area within the borders of Ireland, are extremely rare and suspect. Often badly researched leaving aside obvious omissions.

While significant resources have been committed in Europe over the years to diagnosing their problems, the Irish have had the tendency to sweep it under the carpet in the hopes it'll go away.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. :rolleyes:

PhosphoricAcid

The scene in Forrest Gump really degrades prosittuiton in my opinion..very sad when the limbless war veteran having sex with a prostitute..and i'm sure that goes on,which is vulgar in a way..
how much would prostitues charge for their service?

PhosphoricAcid

PhosphoricAcid wrote: »

The scene in Forrest Gump really degrades prosittuiton in my opinion..very sad when the limbless war veteran having sex with a prostitute..and i'm sure that goes on,which is vulgar in a way..

Why do people always look to the extreme rather than considering the people with normal circumstances? Is it easier to be dismissive when you only think about those with disabilities or other such? Are they a majority in any society? Hardly..

how much would prostitues charge for their service?

It would depend on the country, the culture, the prostitute, the client, and the relationship between the client/prostitute.

In all likelihood any person with a disability would have a regular escort thats already aware of the disability to avoid any fuss/embarrassment.. But I have no idea what the pricing would be like. Find a escort and ask them..

Joey the lips

i suspose that having discussed everything on the subject we will either agree or disagree. It is interesting to note that regardless of our opinions the goverment seems spineless as does the oposition to deal with "Delicate" subjects like prostitution and canabis use head on. Traveling on from so many weeks of discussion on the subject all fine gael have managed to do is

1. Ask for a scientific review of prostitution. I ask you honestly wtf is a scientific review? They dont actually say! Why? Because it is not pc too!

2. The seem to think that the solution to the problem is offer the women asylum. Now call me lame(I know your lame) but is there not a certain person in the news lately for lies into fgm and is there not a percentage of the population saying they are from war regions of africa to get asylum? My logic is if the goverment adopts this policy we will have a lot of women turn up at the door of a refuge and say they have been forced into prostitution. Hay! what do you know! instant accomadation!


I agree with the solution to criminalise the user(Sorry folks) but does this wipe out the illegal trade? No i dont think so!

Text of the document!



"That Dáil Éireann:

notes with alarm that:

• a minimum of 102 women and girls have been clearly identified in a recent report as sex trafficked in 2007 and 2008, 11 of whom were children when they arrived in Ireland and that none of these women knew they were destined for the Irish sex trade;
• up to 97% of the 1,000 women involved in indoor prostitution in Ireland at any given time are migrant women;
• victims of trafficking are identified by this Government as illegal immigrants first and consequently imprisoned and identified as victims second;
• this Government offers no independent accommodation or support services to victims of trafficking;

considering that:

• several European countries have successfully tackled human trafficking and forced prostitution by the introduction of legislation criminalising the buying of sex;
• the UK is introducing legislation to reduce prostitution and human trafficking which will directly impact on the Republic of Ireland;

calls on the Government to:

• end the policy of placing victims of human trafficking in asylum centres and introduce independent accommodation, support and protection services;
• extend the ‘period of recovery and reflection’ as defined in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008 now before Dáil Éireann;
• move the focus on human trafficking from Garda National Immigration Bureau to the Garda Organised Crime Unit;
• extend the remit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform’s Anti-Human Trafficking Unit to include migrant women in prostitution;
• establish a High Level Group to examine our prostitution laws with a view to preventing the proliferation of sex trafficking."

— Denis Naughten, Enda Kenny, Bernard Allen, James Bannon, Seán Barrett, Pat Breen, Richard Bruton, Ulick Burke, Catherine Byrne, Joe Carey, Deirdre Clune, Paul Connaughton, Noel J. Coonan, Simon Coveney, Seymour Crawford, Michael Creed, Lucinda Creighton, Michael D'Arcy, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Andrew Doyle, Bernard J. Durkan, Damien English, Olwyn Enright, Frank Feighan, Charles Flanagan, Terence Flanagan, Brian Hayes, Tom Hayes, Phil Hogan, Paul Kehoe, George Lee, Pádraic McCormack, Shane McEntee, Dinny McGinley, Joe McHugh, Olivia Mitchell, Dan Neville, Michael Noonan, Kieran O'Donnell, Fergus O'Dowd, Jim O'Keeffe, John O'Mahony, John Perry, James Reilly, Michael Ring, Alan Shatter, Tom Sheahan, P. J. Sheehan, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Leo Varadkar

Joey the lips, you've made the point that you hold your view due to proven evidence. I asked earlier for this evidence. Surely you can post it up?

The above isn't evidence of anything, and are snippets. Its information floating in a vacuum without true reference.

And as for the Government, I'll just say that I think they're stumbling fools, and leave it at that.

Joey the lips

Deleted User wrote: »

Joey the lips, you've made the point that you hold your view due to proven evidence. I asked earlier for this evidence. Surely you can post it up?

The above isn't evidence of anything, and are snippets. Its information floating in a vacuum without true reference.

And as for the Government, I'll just say that I think they're stumbling fools, and leave it at that.

I never said anything about the above being evidence. I have actually not commented on your post at all. For a couple of reasons. Mainly because you acknowledge that maybe 30-40% of those in certain areas may be forced into it. This is enough for me

additionally I posted the last post t show that if policy makers cannot get the arguement right how can they get the discussion right.

I seem to have touched something raw in you, I dont know why. But I know this much. There is published evidence to show that the illegal an d legal trade operates along side each other. Even if i went out to survey every prostitute in ireland I know from reading you will do the natural thing and still go with your beliefs.

I generally have an open mind and if it can be shown that no illegal trade operates I would accept this but it cant because unless you have your head in the clouds you know it does.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually he said that its few rather than it doesn't happen at all. And considering there's no official/accurate of the total population of prostitutes in Ireland, its hard to really assess its impact. If there were 10,000 prostitutes in Ireland, would it be a terrible statistic to say that 9954 women were in the industry of their own free will?

That was my point. I've no problem with someone saying they have no idea nor is there any way to assess if it is.

But AARRRGH is doing what he complains about groups like Ruhamma doing, taking anecdotal evidence and applying it in a general fashion to say that it doesn't happen or happens very rarely. At which point he is gone from the assertion that there is no evidence it happens to asserting that it doesn't happen, something that itself requires evidence.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

The CSO figures are for human trafficking.

Why are you trying to link them to prostitution?

The CSO do not mention prostitution.

You are missing my point. If you looked at the evidence for trafficking in 2008 and said there was only 4 recorded cases therefore I can assert that it rarely happens in Ireland that would be a very naive assessment, as the 2009 figures demonstrate

Lack of evidence something is happening is not evidence it doesn't happen.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote: »

But AARRRGH is doing what he complains about groups like Ruhamma doing, taking anecdotal evidence and applying it in a general fashion to say that it doesn't happen or happens very rarely. At which point he is gone from the assertion that there is no evidence it happens to asserting that it doesn't happen, something that itself requires evidence.

Your logic is very dangerous. It's the exact same logic that was used to invade Iraq.

UN bomb inspectors: there is no evidence of any WMDs.
US government: no evidence is irrelevant. Let's invade.

If you can provide me with independent evidence (not Ruhama) that there is a significant forced prostitution problem in Ireland, I will accept it.

I have already said I am open minded enough to accept there are probably some horror stories out there, but they are the exception not the rule. Certainly the evidence tells us this.

Wicknight wrote: »

You are missing my point. If you looked at the evidence for trafficking in 2008 and said there was only 4 recorded cases therefore I can assert that it rarely happens in Ireland that would be a very naive assessment, as the 2009 figures demonstrate

Lack of evidence something is happening is not evidence it doesn't happen.

I'm not missing your point. You were trying to connect unrelated data on human trafficking to forced prostitution.

I appreciate you want to believe there is a big forced prostitution problem, but I base my opinions on facts rather than gut feeling.

It goes without saying that if you have strong opinions on things you should at least have some facts to back them up.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

Your logic is very dangerous. It's the exact same logic that was used to invade Iraq.

UN bomb inspectors: there is no evidence of any WMDs.
US government: no evidence is irrelevant. Let's invade.

Er, no it isn't.

Absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. But equally it doesn't imply that something is happening. I agree with you that groups such as Ruhama or anyone else trying to get people to believe this is happening should present evidence.

But equally anyone trying to convince us it isn't happening should present evidence as well.

The default position is we don't know, not it isn't happening. Such an assumption would itself be quite dangerous, which was my point about trafficking. It would be dangerous to assume that simply because we had no evidence trafficking was happening it therefore wasn't happening and we don't have anything further to do, because as it turned out it most certainly was happening.

The same applies to prostitution or any potentially dangerous industry.

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you can provide me with independent evidence (not Ruhama) that there is a significant forced prostitution problem in Ireland, I will accept it.

I'm not asking you to accept that.

I'm pointing out that your assertion that it isn't happening to any significant level is unsupported. Basically you don't know if it is happening or not. You can use anecdotal evidence to support the claim that it isn't but then that is the sort of thing you (correctly) give out about groups such as Ruhama doing.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I have already said I am open minded enough to accept there are probably some horror stories out there, but they are the exception not the rule. Certainly the evidence tells us this.

No it doesn't. Again absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Evidence that would tell us this was if there was some sort of count of prostitutes that then background checked their circumstances to assess the likelihood that they are being forced to work in the industry, like they do in other industries.

Because prostitution is an underground illegal industry such evidence would be very difficult to obtain, much harder than say sweat shops or house cleaning (other common industries associated with trafficking) where the "employer" at the very least has some interaction with legal business.

This is actual an argument for legalization, the idea that until prostitution is made fully legal it is impossible to assess what is actually going on.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm not missing your point. You were trying to connect unrelated data on human trafficking to forced prostitution.

No I'm not, I'm trying to point out to you the flaw in the argument that lack of evidence for something means it is not taking place.

AARRRGH

Wicknight, your position is weak at best.

I am a reasonable person, so until I see evidence there are problems, I am not going to assume the worst case scenario, i.e. a large but secret forced prostitution problem.

The Gardai themselves say there isn't a significant problem, and they have a lot of experience investigating illegal underground industries (drugs, guns, etc.)

You really have to ask yourself why you so strongly want to believe there are problems. Perhaps because you are not capable of being a prostitute you believe no one is. I don't know.

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

I never said anything about the above being evidence. I have actually not commented on your post at all. For a couple of reasons. Mainly because you acknowledge that maybe 30-40% of those in certain areas may be forced into it. This is enough for me

additionally I posted the last post t show that if policy makers cannot get the arguement right how can they get the discussion right.

You made the point that your opinion is based on evidence. I asked to see this evidence. You have refused to show this evidence. Seriously... you can see why I wonder where your opinion is really from and why...

I wouldn't mind it if you simply said you were against prostitution, but when you talk about proven evidence, I want to see it. Simple.

I seem to have touched something raw in you, I dont know why. But I know this much. There is published evidence to show that the illegal an d legal trade operates along side each other.

Touched something raw in me? Hardly. Its simply because you make such references about evidence and never back it up. Fine, you might publish an article from a newspaper or journal, but nothing of where the research was done, or the manner of the research. So, I get annoyed when people form such solid opinions of something they have no personal experience of... based on evidence which isn't particularly balanced...

Even if i went out to survey every prostitute in ireland I know from reading you will do the natural thing and still go with your beliefs.

Actually you don't know. In fact, I have changed my opinion on many aspects I have read on Humanities and Politics over the years.. I just need to read a well thought out and well written piece. Wicknight has made me think seriously about certain topics over the years, while on other subjects I remain on the opposite side.

I generally have an open mind and if it can be shown that no illegal trade operates I would accept this but it cant because unless you have your head in the clouds you know it does.

Why bother saying you have an open mind... if you need something impossible to happen for you to change it? :rolleyes:

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

That was my point. I've no problem with someone saying they have no idea nor is there any way to assess if it is.

But AARRRGH is doing what he complains about groups like Ruhamma doing, taking anecdotal evidence and applying it in a general fashion to say that it doesn't happen or happens very rarely. At which point he is gone from the assertion that there is no evidence it happens to asserting that it doesn't happen, something that itself requires evidence.

AARRRGH, has his own opinion when it comes to these groups, and this kind of "evidence".... and I have my own.

Simply put, the lack of accurate information does not prove any side's argument. Which is why i prefer to acknowledge that it happens, but also say its not as common as the rest of europe... otherwise the information would be a lot easier to collect.

The point is that quoting a figure like 42 in regards to trafficked women, or say, 100 in regards to drugged women used for sex, don't really mean anything on their own. These figures need to be shown in comparison with the total numbers.. I'd also like to see the numbers that aren't treated bad, or don't have problems with their jobs, but its unlikely any group will want to collect and publish that kind of info. Makes their agenda laughable in the end.

My issue with Ruhamma (and other such groups) is the obvious agenda that they operate under. Since they're independent they have no over-seeing committee to ensure the accuracy of their information, and secondly, since they don't release their research data, there's no way to check if their published articles are balanced, or following a designed trend.

Essentially, there's not enough information on the subject for anyone (that includes you, Joey the lips) to use it as evidence. Sure, you can look at European statistics, but Ireland is not Europe. At least not yet. And probably not for a long time either considering our current economic climate.

Joey the lips

Deleted User wrote: »

You made the point that your opinion is based on evidence. I asked to see this evidence. You have refused to show this evidence. Seriously... you can see why I wonder where your opinion is really from and why...

I wouldn't mind it if you simply said you were against prostitution, but when you talk about proven evidence, I want to see it. Simple.



Touched something raw in me? Hardly. Its simply because you make such references about evidence and never back it up. Fine, you might publish an article from a newspaper or journal, but nothing of where the research was done, or the manner of the research. So, I get annoyed when people form such solid opinions of something they have no personal experience of... based on evidence which isn't particularly balanced...



Actually you don't know. In fact, I have changed my opinion on many aspects I have read on Humanities and Politics over the years.. I just need to read a well thought out and well written piece. Wicknight has made me think seriously about certain topics over the years, while on other subjects I remain on the opposite side.



Why bother saying you have an open mind... if you need something impossible to happen for you to change it? :rolleyes:

Now i clearly have touched a raw nerve in you. You know and it clear you know from following your posts that the illegal and legal trade operates along side each other. Furthermore if you following my posting you would realise that for example my views of canabis have changed. My views on prostitution will never change as it is impossible to show how the legal and legal trade does not operate along side each other.So I have not a closed mind I have a closed mind on subjects that have been proved. For example. I am closed on the fact the earth is round. I am closed on the fact that the legal and illegal trade operates along side each other,

There is a massive amount of books on the subject and you are very nieve to think that there is not an existance. The most recent book I read was called "The undercover economist" it shows the relationship brilliantly. I can explain it to you but I dont think your interested. It takes away the emotions and uses pure logic.

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

Now i clearly have touched a raw nerve in you.

I have never understood why you always revert to this when i back you into a corner. The only nerve you're pressing is the annoyance i feel for someone who avoids answering the question... Especially the question that strikes at the core of your position.

You know and it clear you know from following your posts that the illegal and legal trade operates along side each other.

Yes... Although since we're talking about prostitution in Ireland, there's only the illegal variety.

Furthermore if you following my posting you would realise that for example my views of canabis have changed.

Nope. Why would I? I'm not much of an boards.ie stalker, or any type of stalker for that matter.

My views on prostitution will never change as it is impossible to show how the legal and legal trade does not operate along side each other.So I have not a closed mind I have a closed mind on subjects that have been proved. For example. I am closed on the fact the earth is round. I am closed on the fact that the legal and illegal trade operates along side each other,

What is this legal and illegal trade you're going on about? This is the first time you've introduced it, in the last few pages..

There is a massive amount of books on the subject and you are very nieve to think that there is not an existance. The most recent book I read was called "The undercover economist" it shows the relationship brilliantly. I can explain it to you but I dont think your interested. It takes away the emotions and uses pure logic.

It doesn't matter. The point is that you posted about proven evidence in regards to prostitution in Ireland, and now you seem incapable of producing any of it. Instead you're jumping around with vague references to books about international economics, or international lifestyles.

The simple fact is that in the last few pages, I have queried you about the logic in your posts. i.e. the supporting framework of information which you so generously refer to. Since, you continue to avoid posting any of it, I'll just assume you're making it all up as you post to this thread. Seems logical.

On a side note, regarding emotion & logic... oh, never mind.. :rolleyes:

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

Simply put, the lack of accurate information does not prove any side's argument. Which is why i prefer to acknowledge that it happens, but also say its not as common as the rest of europe... otherwise the information would be a lot easier to collect.
...
Essentially, there's not enough information on the subject for anyone (that includes you, Joey the lips) to use it as evidence.

There is some what of a contradiction there. You say the evidence is not accurate enough to prove any side's argument (which I accept) but then say you can assess it is not a common as the rest of Europe?

My point about the trafficking statistics is that it could simply be a case that we are not assessing what, if anything, is actually happening, and therefore we have no idea what is really happening, if anything.

Zombrex

AARRRGH wrote: »

Wicknight, your position is weak at best.

I am a reasonable person, so until I see evidence there are problems, I am not going to assume the worst case scenario, i.e. a large but secret forced prostitution problem.

I'm not asking you to assume the worst case scenario.

I'm asking you can you back up your statements that forced prostitution is rare in Ireland beyond assuming it is because we don't have statistics that it is common?

AARRRGH wrote: »

The Gardai themselves say there isn't a significant problem, and they have a lot of experience investigating illegal underground industries (drugs, guns, etc.)

I'm aware of this though they haven't backed that statement up either, which was raised by FG in the Dail to which the government had no response. Again it seems to be the assumption that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

AARRRGH wrote: »

You really have to ask yourself why you so strongly want to believe there are problems.

I'm not sure why you keep saying that.

It is a simply point I'm making, that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I'm not attempting to force the position that it does happen a lot, I don't know it happens a lot. A lot of groups seem to think it happens a lot but they have an onus to produce evidence as well.

The statistics, like a lot of illegal organised industry, are very difficult to obtain, and I would agree with 100% that Ruhamma are pushing a religious agenda, though I wouldn't be as strong as you in dismissing everything they say because of this. Because of this I would be surprised if a group like Ruhamma could demonstrate conclusively it is happening, I would wonder how they could determine this.

I think if there is an area that deserves further focus it is that a number of international reports including one from the US State Department, have criticised Ireland's laws on these matters, and I think if anything that should be the focus of attention.

We should comply with international standards towards forced prostitution and trafficking in general. We should do that whether or not we have a significant problem.

What we shouldn't do is start asserting we don't have a problem unless we know we don't have a problem. Such an assertion seems as agenda driven as assertions without evidence that we do have a problem.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

There is some what of a contradiction there. You say the evidence is not accurate enough to prove any side's argument (which I accept) but then say you can assess it is not a common as the rest of Europe?

Hardly a contradiction, since most European countries have spent serious money in identifying the "problems" within their societies, and anything remotely associated with crime. Ireland hasn't. Simple. Consider the prostitution industry in France or Germany... They're huge, and have a much larger impact on their societies, than prostitution does in Ireland... which would gave a fair indication why they've got a lot more accurate information on the subject in their respective countries.

My point about the trafficking statistics is that it could simply be a case that we are not assessing what, if anything, is actually happening, and therefore we have no idea what is really happening, if anything.

Agreed. It could be bad, it could be terrible, or it could be quite low. We just don't have the information needed to come to a serious & realistic determination. Anything assumed would be speculation.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm asking you can you back up your statements that forced prostitution is rare in Ireland beyond assuming it is because we don't have statistics that it is common?

Wicknight, don't you think if Ruhamma could prove that forced prostitution was common or a serious problem they would have by now? Instead the numbers they throw out are quite low.

The point is that while AARRRGH is making an assumption due to the lack of evidence, so too are most people on the other side. That if there are such low numbers reported, then there must be a lot more hidden from view.

Its speculation. Until serious research/investigations has been made to determine the truth of the matter, we're stuck in neutral.

The statistics, like a lot of illegal organised industry, are very difficult to obtain, and I would agree with 100% that Ruhamma are pushing a religious agenda, though I wouldn't be as strong as you in dismissing everything they say because of this. Because of this I would be surprised if a group like Ruhamma could demonstrate conclusively it is happening, I would wonder how they could determine this.

I don't have much of an issue with Ruhamma themselves... I have an issue with the manner of their reports which are directed... Every time I read one, I wonder what they have left out to make their own report sound so much more dramatic. But most of the time, they only release selected data from their research teams, so its impossible to fully check it out.

I think if there is an area that deserves further focus it is that a number of international reports including one from the US State Department, have criticised Ireland's laws on these matters, and I think if anything that should be the focus of attention.

Ireland has always had problems in this area, and with prostitution in general. Even the licensing regarding lap dancing clubs is archaic. But its not an area that the politicians are going to be particularly interested in. Lets face it, in ireland, if it hasn't blown in our faces at least twice, it won't be fixed...

We should comply with international standards towards forced prostitution and trafficking in general. We should do that whether or not we have a significant problem.

Completely agree. We have a responsibility and it should be followed exactly.

What we shouldn't do is start asserting we don't have a problem unless we know we don't have a problem. Such an assertion seems as agenda driven as assertions without evidence that we do have a problem.

Personally, I see it being a problem jumping to conclusions from both sides. Assuming that we don't have a serious problem, and assuming that we do have a serious problem. The simple fact is that this country is not perfect, and we have a problem in this area. Its always going to exist. The point is whether its a serious issue or just a "normal" one.