Prostitution

Zombrex

Big long rant there Klaz, but this is the only bits that are actually relivent (unless you want to continue talking about moral judgements, which I don't remember making)

Deleted User wrote:

ok. Considered it. In fact I had a long reply, but figured in the end the following would be the best answer: No, I wouldn't.

You wouldn't want to sleep with a hooker than you knew didn't want to sleep with you. Therefore for you to be able to sleep with a hooker you must believe that she wants to do it, and I would imagine you believe every prostitute you have been with enjoyed herself with you. She knows this

Your first hand experience of what a prostitute experiences as a prostitute is fake, clouded by your own needs in the relationship between you and her. That is what I mean when I say you are too close to be objective.

It is the fact that you seem incapable of realising that is why I'm still discussing this, and the fact that you constantly talk as an authority on the subject while refusing to listen to anyone who hasn't sleep with a prostitute.

As I said, everyone has hangups.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote:

Big long rant there Klaz, but this is the only bits that are actually relivent (unless you want to continue talking about moral judgements, which I don't remember making)

Rant? Not really. Since you don't hold yourself back in highlighting how disfunctional I apparently am, why shouldn't I point out your issues within this thread..... especially when it comes down to your lack of accurcy in understanding many of my posts.

You call it a rant when I point out where you've misquoted, or misunderstood what I've said, and in turn wrote long paragraphs based upon this incorrect response... Not a rant. A correction of sorts.

You wouldn't want to sleep with a hooker than you knew didn't want to sleep with you. Therefore for you to be able to sleep with a hooker you must believe that she wants to do it. She knows this

No. I wouldn't want to to sleep with a hooker that didn't enjoy it or hated having sex. At least stick to the question you actually asked. What you're suggesting now is different. in Western Countries at least amongst the escort subsection you don't find women being forced into doing this work all that often. If they don't want to do what they're doing, there are other options.

I find it interesting that you have no problem believing that no escorts enjoy their work, whereas you don't believe that some escorts might actually enjoy it.

And you continue to avoid trying to understand my actual replies. Its like speaking with a brick wall.

Your first hand experience of what a prostitute experiences as a prostitute is fake, clouded by your own needs in the relationship between you and her. That is what I mean when I say you are too close to be objective.

Crap. So because I have experience on the subject we're actually talking about, and I am one of the customers you're trying to label, my opinion is too close to be objective>? Oh come on. Whereas you have no personal experience of the subject, so we should agree with your evaluation of the prostitution industry and its customers?

Sounds more like you're trying to devalidate my input, because you realise you don't know what you're talking about, while stating it as fact.

It is the fact that you seem incapable of realising that is why I'm still discussing this, and the fact that you constantly talk as an authority on the subject while refusing to listen to anyone who hasn't sleep with a prostitute.

Why thank you. More facts. :rolleyes: Haven't you noticed that you're the only one I'm arguing with? Doesn't that tell you something? Perhaps you're guilty of the very thing you're accusing me of.... but I doubt you'd ever accept such a thing was possible.

Actually I like to hear other peoples input. However If I think they're wrong, I'll speak up. They can convince me that I'm incorrect. Its happened in the past, just as I've been correct in the past aswell. However since you've pronounced judgement on the customers of Prostitution, and what they feel, I'll raise your lack of experience in the subject you believe yourself to be such an authority on......

As I said, everyone has hangups.

Aye, they do. I wonder though, are you aware of your own.

Zombrex

Klaz you may actually have notice, I've never actually made a moral judgement on prostitution.

Your almost constanting ranting that I have is (to me at least) even more evidence of your defensive hang ups toward the subject, and even more reason why your opinions hold little wait with me and why you are too close to the subject to be objective.

You seem to be falling over yourself to defend prostitution and your actions against a moral attack I never actually made. Why?

Dermington

Neither morality, religion nor society would ever interfere with my decision either way.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote:

Klaz you may actually have notice, I've never actually made a moral judgement on prostitution.

Your almost constanting ranting that I have is (to me at least) even more evidence of your defensive hang ups toward the subject, and even more reason why your opinions hold little wait with me and why you are too close to the subject to be objective.

You seem to be falling over yourself to defend prostitution and your actions against a moral attack I never actually made. Why?

I give up. I'm starting to go around in circles, because you just wont listen.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote:

I give up. I'm starting to go around in circles, because you just wont listen.

If you would like to list the moral judgements I made about prostitution I will respond to them. Otherwise I suppose I'll take it as a recongistion on your part that I didn't make any or you can't find any you object to, and you just enjoy ranting about something I didn't actually do

I'm all ears.

Sleepy

Wicknight, as usual, you're picking parts of people's posts to try and invalidate everything they say. This isn't a debating society, yet you continue to skip over a lot of relevant points klaz is making.

He's said he knows prostitutes that he has not had transactions with and that these girls informed him that they do in fact enjoy their job. How is his using other prostitutes clouding his judgement of this? Sure, it's hearsay, but this ain't exactly a court of law.

Try reading some of Klaz's posts rather than just picking out the parts which you can use/twist to support your argument.

DOLEMAN

I posted this in the Sex/Sexuality forum, but I thought it might be helpful here too...

doleman wrote:

Last week I interviewed an escort about her job, life and future. Have a read...

What age are you?
24

Why did you become an escort?
After the economy crash in my country, I decided go to Spain. I stayed there 3 years illegally, waiting for my european passport, working as salesperson and chambermaid. After 14 months with no holidays and only earning €540 a month I finally started as an escort.

Basically I started because no papers equals no work ... the other option was escorting and very good money so...

How long have you been an escort?
4 years.

Were you an escort before you came to Ireland?
Yes.

Do you enjoy working as an escort?
NO.

What's the best and the worst part of the job?
The best is - good money, deciding when to work, a few holidays a year. I can live whereever I want - I can go anywhere and start earning money immediately. I can learn different languages (slow but getting better hahaha!)

The worst is - I must have sex .

Do you have a "pimp"?
NO.

Do escorts in Ireland normally have a pimp?
Well, I don't know a lot about that because I'm an independent escort, but some escorts work for somebody else and have to give 50%...

Do you work during the day or the night?
Day only.

Do you work from your home, your clients homes or from hotels?
Actually, I have an apartment, but I do out calls as well.

Have you ever had any bad experiences working as an escort?
Not anything really serious.

How do the police treat escorts in Ireland?
I don't know, I've never needed to go to the police fortunately!

What could the government do to help protect escorts?
1) I think if prostitution was legal, we'd be finished with agencies and pimps, trafficing etc. Just "free" escorts who can open bank accounts, pay tax, medical assistance like everybody else, better health control etc.
2) I know Ireland is a very religious country, and I respect that, but I think lt's necessary to open minds because if you do not accept prostitution happens, you are not religious, you are a hypocrite. I know for girls, especially, it is very difficult to understand that your boyfriend/husband/partner meets escorts, but it is natural - everybody needs diferent things to be happy. For example, you need different food, you cannot eat pizza every day even though you love to eat pizza. Well, sex is the same. LOVE IS LOVE AND SEX IS SEX. You can have just one love all your life, but you need sex with different people. It is a physiological need.

Have you ever met an escort who was working against her will, i.e she was a sex slave?
NO.

Are escorts "normal" people?
We are people as well. But NORMAL??? WHAT IS NORMAL TODAY? Anyway, if you mean "to have a series of common features"... No, definitelly we are not. When you learn something, you cannot come back to be ignorant. This is the only difference betwen normal people and escorts. We know the other side of the world. Everything about men, everything about discrimination. Well, not exactly everything, but we know the bad things about humans.

Do you think working as an escort is wrong or immoral?
I think everything is ok if you are free to choose and if you don't damage anyone.

How long will you continue to work as an escort?
I hope just 1 more year.

What are you going to do when you retire from escorting?
Open a shop. Maybe a restaurant. I love food!

Would you work in the porn industry?
No.

If you could work in a "normal" job, what would it be?
Beauty / Food

Does your family know you are an escort? If yes, how do they feel about it? If no, why not?
NO, my family do not know. It would make them suffer.

Are you religious?
No.

Do you have a boyfriend/partner? If so, how does he feel about your job?
No. When I started working I said, "OK, I will stop my life for few years until I have everything that I want - house, car, travel, etc. - and then I will look for love," because I know what I do is not compatible. However when I arrived in Ireland I met an Irish man and started a relationship with him, but we broke up because I'm still working and it's very hard for him. I understand. So, I've come back to my first idea... and I'll stay alone until I finish.

What kind of men use escorts?
Most are very considerate with me. I must say that I've worked in different European countries and Irish men are really gentle. Spanish men, for example, are very rude.

Do you use condoms?
ALWAYS.

Do you ever get pressured to have unsafe sex?
Fortunatelly, no.

Have you ever been tested for sex diseases?
Every 3 months I go to the doctor and have a full blood test.

There is the opinion/myth that those who end up in the sex industry have been victims of rape or sexual abuse or molestation at a young age. Do you think this is true?
Well, we are all exposed to different risks. I realise I've been very lucky.

Are escorts misunderstood by the public?
I think so. Sometimes men forget we are just a girl. We feel. A few days ago a man asked me if we sleep! It was very funny, but clearly you can see the problem. But girls... what can I say, in their mind we are like the devil.

Are you happy?
No. For different reason and also before I started this job. I hope to be happy when I retire from escorting, have my home, my husband (maybe, hahaha!) and I'm able to do exactly what I want - a "normal" life, enjoying the real things because I will never forget the other side. Enjoying my husband even when I know he is meeting escorts!!!

From sex.ie.

Good Article. Corresponds with my experiences with escorts. :rolleyes:

elivsvonchiaing

Agree good article. It almost confirms my hypothesis that this could be a legal and taxed industry. (the gardaí leave them alone and there aren't too many psychos out there).

However, it has the look and feel that this industry is not for her, and maybe she is particularly strong...

Looking at this industry with puritan eyeglasses (the OP) is still however ludicrous! (This industry will exist as long as we are human - and don't have sexual freedom deprived from us by our society).

We live in a secular society. Would you rather Sharia law? Unsuspecting motorcyclists being being beheaded by a wire strung across the road for the Shabath?
Entire familys being shunned from a community because one of their member gets divorced (this one is christian - and I didn't just read about it).

McGinty

Hi Cool Guy I haven't read all the posts but enough to make a comment, I was suprised at that a lot of guys use prostitutes, if I was to know that a partner of mine used one it would put me off, however you ask the question re: why do men sleep with prostitutes knowing she may be used as part of human trafficking. I'm not a man, but I am making a close guess, at the time the guy/guys want to **** basically, they don't care about the morals, or what is behind, in the same way that most people don't give a **** who makes the Nike trainers, or the ethics of coca cola, etc, there are people who care, who look beyond that, but not many. These guys do it because they can, as a woman I dislike the prostitution, the strong use of pornography, the whole attitude "its okay, etc, etc" its a fact of life, but I don't see it as right, its what I class as a neccessary evil. Also in question to another posters question, would I prostitute myself if I was desperate, I can safely say no, I have been dirt poor and didn't do it.

97i9y3941

im surprised here that the goverment here hasnt legalised it yet,the german/dutch system was good,it knocked out the criminal gangs,made industry more safer,they join unions,and to benefit the gov they have to pay tax *god knows that the gov here thinks smoking is immoral*

ChocolateSauce

Fred83 wrote: »

im surprised here that the goverment here hasnt legalised it yet,the german/dutch system was good,it knocked out the criminal gangs,made industry more safer,they join unions,and to benefit the gov they have to pay tax *god knows that the gov here thinks smoking is immoral*

Talk about a long dead thread....did you find it by looking for prostitutes in google?

Irlbo

Prostitution,its a tricky subject,personally I think its repulsive and sad on the man's part who use them,I think its shameful,immoral and desperate on the womans(prostitutes) part,but then again I never had any trouble with women and Im very social,but I understand theres men out there who would regard themselves 'ugly' and not very confident in social circles,these men wouldnt have much luck with women so therefore would use the services of prostituites,its sad and dirty,but I dont think it will ever go away,one of the oldest professions in the world and all that,I dont think legalisation is the way,as I think this would mean more women and troubled girls would be lured into it

AARRRGH

Irlbo wrote: »

Prostitution,its a tricky subject,personally I think its repulsive and sad on the man's part who use them,I think its shameful,immoral and desperate on the womans(prostitutes) part,but then again I never had any trouble with women and Im very social,but I understand theres men out there who would regard themselves 'ugly' and not very confident in social circles,these men wouldnt have much luck with women so therefore would use the services of prostituites,its sad and dirty,but I dont think it will ever go away,one of the oldest professions in the world and all that,I dont think legalisation is the way,as I think this would mean more women and troubled girls would be lured into it

I understand the above paragraph is how you feel, but could you explain to me the reasons why you feel that way? In particular -

1. Why prostitutes are shameful, immoral and desperate
2. Why men who use prostitutes are repulsive and sad
3. Why you think it is "ugly" men who use prostitutes
4. How "troubled" women are "lured" into prostitution

Thanks.

The problem with discussing prostitution comes down to four major factors.

1). Many who talk about it have never been with a prostitute/escort.
2). The majority who are against it, are against it based upon the morals they learnt from society, religion, or their parents, rather than any first hand experience. (separate to point one)
3). Most make assumptions about how the prostitutes themselves "feel" as a stereotype rather than considering that they are individuals and have different reasons for being in the industry.
4) And lastly there is no difference in their eyes between a street walker, an agency girl, an independent escort, a hostess, etc.

Irlbo, your post contains all of the above. Personally, I have no problem with meeting women on the street, in bars, or in clubs. And I have been with prostitutes both in Ireland and abroad. (Simply put, sometimes you just want sex without any strings) Its always going to be a personal reason individual to the person buying the services. So for some it will be an inability to meet women, for others its the simple act of sex without any other considerations, and others will have some fetish they're not going to get from a one nighter or girlfriend. There are many reasons for going to a prostitute.

Lastly your post isn't particularly neutral.. although from reading it I think you want to appear so. I read it, and you come across as being particularly negative of the industry. If so, your choice... But i would ask have you any first hand experience of prostitutes, or is all your knowledge taken from the news or hearsay?

Whats this got to do with the actual thread topic?

In any case, you're kinda lacking any decent information beyond a reference to a "ballymun slut".. which really narrows down things... :rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

Prostitution 'the oldest profession in the world' was here long before we were born and will be here long after we die. People shouldn't get so pent up about women providing it or men using it. Birds must fly, fish must swim etc.

I would have sympathy for any prostitute who was trafficked (estimated to be approx 5% to 10%) into the country. I would support harsh sentences for the traffickers of these girls who are imo pure evil! However the vast majority 90%+ are here off their own bat and do it to make money for themselves, and i say why not?

Its interesting to see the differing attitudes between countries with regards to both sex and prostitution, lets use Ireland and Thailand as examples.
In Thailand, being a prosititute is perfectly acceptable. The girls are respected by their families for making money who more often than not will be hard up. They are a respected part of the community (hard as it might be for people here to get their head around such a concept).
In Ireland no parent would ever want their daughter to enter prostitution, partially due to fear for their daughters health and possibilty of being in physical danger, and partly due to the shame it would cause the family if it ever 'got out' what she did for a living.

My thoughts are that there is nothing morally wrong with prostitution. There is nothing wrong with women providing it, and nothing wrong with men taking it up, so long as both parties consent to it. I would agree with legalising it, having prostitutes paying tax, and it being treated like a regular job, and hopefully over time the stigma of such as profession being removed or at least reduced as a result.

AARRRGH

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I would have sympathy for any prostitute who was trafficked (estimated to be approx 5% to 10%) into the country.

Where did you hear this?

Erin Go Brath

AARRRGH wrote: »

Where did you hear this?

This was a figure quoted on Prime Time recently.

Macha

AARRRGH, I just wanted to ask you about child prostitution.

If we assume that children are not able to make that "choice" to go into prostitution because of the fact that they are minors, do you consider child prostitution to be forced prostitution?

AARRRGH

taconnol wrote: »

AARRRGH, I just wanted to ask you about child prostitution.

If we assume that children are not able to make that "choice" to go into prostitution because of the fact that they are minors, do you consider child prostitution to be forced prostitution?

Well, I consider forced prostitution to mean some other person is controlling the prostitute's actions. For example, the prostitute has been told if she tries to leave the brothel she will be killed. So she is literally forced to continue being a prostitute. There is no "choice" whatsoever.

I agree with you that a minor does not have the ability to choose a life of prostitution (for obvious reasons), but I would not agree it is forced prostitution as (I'm assuming) the minor can stop whenever she wants.

So it is wrong, but it is not forced.

trentf

To the original poster. What's with the prostitution is so commonplace nowadays. Prostitiution has been around in ireland since the 1800's

Its just because of the mass media and internet its more commonplace. We are truely backward here in ireland with our laws. How does banning things make any difference. Has banning drugs worked? No Has banning guns worked? No and would banning prositution work? No again


Time to change direction i say legalise it and legalise drugs maybe not guns but light drugs such as marijuana. Do this and you cut out the criminal elements who operate in underground capacity because they are forced to circumnavigate the law. The people that don't want to legalise these things are paranoid because they instantly assume everyone will suddenly go out and get prostitutes and drugs etc and society will collapse.

philologos

I find the article more disturbing in the way that she says that the worst part of the job is having sex. Why should people make a living out of something that they genuinely do not want to do,? Surely there should be some other means of giving these people work.

elivsvonchiaing wrote: »

Looking at this industry with puritan eyeglasses (the OP) is still however ludicrous! (This industry will exist as long as we are human - and don't have sexual freedom deprived from us by our society).

However blaming the OP for having a puritan outlook on the issue isn't really fair considering that most people in Ireland I would say would consider prostitution to be quite frankly immoral.

elivsvonchiaing wrote: »

We live in a secular society. Would you rather Sharia law? Unsuspecting motorcyclists being being beheaded by a wire strung across the road for the Shabath?

Entire familys being shunned from a community because one of their member gets divorced (this one is christian - and I didn't just read about it).

Again, another objection that comes up is religion. People are always going to use Scriptures of some form as a guide in their lives, irrespective of how secular this country is or claims to be and as such they will have views formed by Christianity, Islam and so on on the matter.

As for preferring Sharia law, this isn't an issue over West is best kind of nonsense. It's not one or the other. There are aspects of Islamic law that I wouldn't like to live under granted, however, compared to the West there are some things that are favourable about Sharia law compared to the type of liberalism that is being discussed on this thread in particular.

There is an overriding attitude of modesty and upholding women as more than sexual objects in the Islamic attitude of life, whereas in the West there is an attitude of treating women as something to be sold as a commodity. If you mean in that sense would I prefer Sharia Law? I'd have to say absolutely yes. It's not an either or situation, we should be thinking about ways that improve the quality of life for all and ensure moral standards as the OP has suggested.

As for Shabbat and the Jewish tradition, I think this is a sad part of the way society has gone in Ireland and Britain in particular that there isn't a clear day of rest for the entire population, and it's an important thing to focus on and a time that would allow people to develop spiritually also if they so chose to do so. Infact it's one of the positive aspects of continental Europe (Sunday) and the State of Israel (Friday 6pm - Saturday 6pm). So yes I'd consider that to be positive rather than negative in the light you have shown it in.

Families being shunned and Christianity? Interesting one, now just so we can differentiate between the actual values of Christianity as put forward in the Bible, and Christianity that is in the church, it might be acceptable to ask you to cite where is that in Christian teaching? Actually if I'm correct didn't Jesus minister to tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners of all kinds in His day if we are to take the Gospel accounts?

Hope to hear a response from some of you

g5fd6ow0hseima

DOLEMAN wrote: »

It's not exploitation. Thinking that is so wrong.

I know some prostitutes. They choose to do the sex acts. The customer chooses to participate in the sex acts. The prostitute makes lots of money. End of story.

I am sorry, but sex is not degrading or something you should be ashamed of.

What is the motives behind doing so? Surely even the slightest element of progression in their minds would leave them far removed from even considering resorting to such a degrading way of making money...

AARRRGH

Tori Prickly Landlady wrote: »

What is the motives behind doing so? Surely even the slightest element of progression in their minds would leave them far removed from even considering resorting to such a degrading way of making money...

I disagree with you. I would think if they had the "slightest element of progression in their minds" they would be able to remove the "moral" aspect out of sex, and reclaim sex as something they control and can use however they choose.

Also, why is it a degrading way of making money? Maybe you would feel degraded if you did it, but can you speak for everyone?

Armin_Tamzarian

Personally I've never went with a prostitute.
The majority of my friends have and I don't have a problem with it.
Alot of them have no problem pulling fit lookinh girls, it's just something they do.
It's funny in a way, I've been dragged around numerous brothels by friends and have felt pressurised by prostitutes to avail of their services.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I don't think I'd enjoy having sex with someone in a situation like that.
I'm not a big fan of one night stands either, but at least when you go out and meet some girl and have a laugh with them and end up having sex with them later there's some sort of connection there.
You're left feeling satisfied by the interaction in it's entirity, not just the sexual act.
I'm sure that if I had sex with a prostitute I'd feel horrible afterwards.

AARRRGH

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

Personally I've never went with a prostitute.
The majority of my friends have and I don't have a problem with it.
Alot of them have no problem pulling fit lookinh girls, it's just something they do.
It's funny in a way, I've been dragged around numerous brothels by friends and have felt pressurised by prostitutes to avail of their services.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I don't think I'd enjoy having sex with someone in a situation like that.
I'm not a big fan of one night stands either, but at least when you go out and meet some girl and have a laugh with them and end up having sex with them later there's some sort of connection there.
You're left feeling satisfied by the interaction in it's entirity, not just the sexual act.
I'm sure that if I had sex with a prostitute I'd feel horrible afterwards.

I know what you mean. I've never been with a prostitute, and don't think I ever would. I like the chase of meeting a girl and getting her into bed . For me, that's half the fun.

But if people want to pay for sex (or accept money for sex), that's their business.

g5fd6ow0hseima

AARRRGH wrote: »

I disagree with you. I would think if they had the "slightest element of progression in their minds" they would be able to remove the "moral" aspect out of sex, and reclaim sex as something they control and can use however they choose.

Also, why is it a degrading way of making money? Maybe you would feel degraded if you did it, but can you speak for everyone?

Well I suppose I am in a minority of people on this isle who has respect for sex, and fails to glorify / priorities what I see as a union between two people - not some commodity / necessity. To me prostitution is really cheating on life. If the opportunities dont present themselves, go without. And if being a prostitute isnt being degraded to the point where a woman is merely a hole, well then I dont know if degradation exists in this world.

Tori Prickly Landlady

Tori Prickly Landlady wrote: »

Well I suppose I am in a minority of people on this isle who has respect for sex, and fails to glorify / priorities what I see as a union between two people - not some commodity / necessity. To me prostitution is really cheating on life. If the opportunities dont present themselves, go without. And if being a prostitute isnt being degraded to the point where a woman is merely a hole, well then I dont know if degradation exists in this world.

And that's your choice, and your perception on life. Other people feel different. I don't see a problem with prostitution, seeing it as just another service... like getting a massage, or going to a spa for relaxation.

As for degradation, that's completely up to the women involved and how they deal with the choice they made in turning to prostitution as a way to make money. If they are unhappy doing it, its still an option to get out and do something else. If they're ok with doing it, then they're unlikely to feel degraded by doing it.

Personally, i think the degradation aspect only comes in from people judging those who work in this industry.