Prostitution

Bottle_of_Smoke

simu wrote:

Eh, no. I meant why would you bother becoming a prostitute if you already have a good job? Too riskey.

Remember it's legal - why? A lot of good jobs don't get you a good home in this city.

simu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Remember it's legal - why? A lot of good jobs don't get you a good home in this city.

Yeah - you think it would become the nixer du jour for yuppies?

Bottle_of_Smoke

simu wrote:

Yeah - you think it would become the nixer du jour for yuppies?

If they were as concerned as what society thinks of them as you do then no it wouldn't - but I don't see why what's right & wrong should revolve around yuppies

thunderdome mod just gave me a call

simu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

If they were as concerned as what society thinks of them as you do then no it wouldn't - but I don't see why what's right & wrong should revolve around yuppies

thunderdome mod just gave me a call

Most are a lot more concerned than I am with such things ya see.

Thread... fizzles

Bottle_of_Smoke

simu wrote:

Most are a lot more concerned than I am with such things ya see.

Thread... fizzles

That doesn't explain why what yuppies think should have any bearing on prostitutes. Care to do so?

simu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

That doesn't explain why what yuppies think should have any bearing on prostitutes. Care to do so?

Well, one of my issues with legalisation was that the current stigma that exists about being a prostitute would carry on and that it would still be seen as a job for "other people" (NIMBY but for family and acquaintances rather than geography) and that people who worked as prostitutes would still not be treated very well.

DOLEMAN

Would you rather an illegal immigrant works as a prostitute, earns good money and can stay and survive (comfortably) in Ireland or... would you rather they can't find a job and have to return home to their poor, depressing city?

If you had to choose one or the other...

She doesn't mind the prostitution job, but would rather have a "normal" job. She feels the perks outweigh the negatives.

Opinions please!

/moi trying to regenerate banter

Bottle_of_Smoke

simu wrote:

Well, one of my issues with legalisation was that the current stigma that exists about being a prostitute would carry on and that it would still be seen as a job for "other people" (NIMBY but for family and acquaintances rather than geography) and that people who worked as prostitutes would still not be treated very well.

Do you think they'd be treated worse than they are now?

But f*uck it they're not yuppies let them rot in as much human trafficking as possible

simu

simu wrote:

Well, one of my issues with legalisation was that the current stigma that exists about being a prostitute would carry on and that it would still be seen as a job for "other people" (NIMBY but for family and acquaintances rather than geography) and that people who worked as prostitutes would still not be treated very well.

Legalisation would pave the way for acceptance to occur. twenty years ago homosexuality was a huge no no, and yet its alot more acceptable now to the general public. Yes, there is still stigma and bigotry about it, but most gay men/women would agree that the improvements of the last 20 years are better than what went before.... know what I mean?

It takes time for society to change its values, and the only way that people will start accepting Prostitution as being ok, is that it first becomes legal. There's a host of jobs out there that the general public don't want to do themselves, but they recognise that the job needs to be done. prostitution is just one more of those jobs. And people need to start recognising that, and realising that only by making prostitution legal will you improve the lives of every man or woman working in that industry.

simu

Deleted User wrote:

It takes time for society to change its values, and the only way that people will start accepting Prostitution as being ok, is that it first becomes legal. There's a host of jobs out there that the general public don't want to do themselves, but they recognise that the job needs to be done. prostitution is just one more of those jobs. And people need to start recognising that, and realising that only by making prostitution legal will you improve the lives of every man or woman working in that industry.

Well, it's possible that things would change like you say but I'm not certain at all that it would happen. It would depend very much on the actual legislation. As in, I don't think it could just be decriminalised because then you'd have all the people who work as pimps today becoming legit business people and I suspect they would still retain some of their present shadiness. Also, many of the women in the business today are there because of drug addiction or emotional abuse and so on and such people would be better off getting out of the business imho.

I think you'd have to accept that as a job, it requires a lot of sacrifices (health risks and intrusion into private life f'r instance) and that legalised prostitution would require proper training, continuous medical care, a pay scale above minimum rate at the very least.

bottle of smoke wrote:

Do you think they'd be treated worse than they are now?

But f*uck it they're not yuppies let them rot in as much human trafficking as possible

Wow. Never let what people actually post in a thread get in the way of sensationalism, eh?

metrovelvet

Question:

If it were legalised, would women lose their benefits if they turned down a job offer to work as a prostitute?

If you are on the dole arent you supposed to take any job you can get?

simu

metrovelvet wrote:

Question:

If it were legalised, would women lose their benefits if they turned down a job offer to work as a prostitute?

See, I would be against that. I think you would have to have courses and qualifications and psychological assessment to make sure prostitutes were able to look after themselves and their clients properly.

Bottle_of_Smoke

metrovelvet wrote:

Question:

If it were legalised, would women lose their benefits if they turned down a job offer to work as a prostitute?

If you are on the dole arent you supposed to take any job you can get?

think it came up once somewhere where its legal & was rejected on humanitarian grounds - or else it was a rumour disproved & shown why it wouldn't happen.

No woman has ever been rejected welfare for not whoring.

Simu sensationisation it may be but it's just an exaggerated version of your train of thought. While I know you mean well when you reckon prostitutes will be looked down at - I don't think you really believe that's a good enough reason to decline them the choice.

simu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Simu sensationisation it may be but it's just an exaggerated version of your train of thought. While I know you mean well when you reckon prostitutes will be looked down at - I don't think you really believe that's a good enough reason to decline them the choice.

Well, the thing is, if it stays illegal, I still think we need a new approach to it other than the current one of ignoring it for the most part.

Bottle_of_Smoke

simu wrote:

Well, the thing is, if it stays illegal, I still think we need a new approach to it other than the current one of ignoring it for the most part.

Ugh why do you assume its just being ignored - maybe people trafficking women are professionals

simu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Ugh why do you assume its just being ignored - maybe people trafficking women are professionals

Well, trafficking is a somewhat seperate issue and it has been getting more attention since that Prime Time docu a few weeks ago.

"Ordinary" prostitution is mostly ignored - apart from the voices of a few voluntary agencies. Sure, there's no votes in that sort of stuff!

Shellie13

DOLEMAN wrote:

"Moral" reasons is not a valid excuse for a law.

There is no other reason for a law...
The majority of people believe its "morally" wrong to kill...
Thus murder is illegal etc... not all peoples morals are the same, laws come (idealy) from people campainging for their own set of morals and (idealy) the most common held morals...

Any way one thing i find a little amusing here that its mostly guys campaning for legal prostitution...
NO women shouting out "o please i'd love the option to climb my way out of poverty if i ever fall into it!"
Face it you say women "chose" the work..Never heard of a little girl saying "i wanna grow up and be a prostitute mammy!"

DOLEMAN

Shellie13 wrote:

There is no other reason for a law...

?? No! Laws should never be about morals. Everyone has different moral standards. As I have said, what is morally right for you is morally wrong for me. And vice versa. So our law should be based on, "will this harm people?"

Shellie13 wrote:

The majority of people believe its "morally" wrong to kill...

Yes, but that's not why it's illegal. It's illegal because it is harming people. Prostitution is not illegal because it harms people. It is illegal because it is "morally wrong".

No one will agree that killing someone is a good thing.

Only people with sex issues agree prostitution is wrong. Yet I still don't understand how a man and woman having sex in a hotel room has anything to do with you or me.

Shellie13 wrote:

Any way one thing i find a little amusing here that its mostly guys campaning for legal prostitution...
NO women shouting out "o please i'd love the option to climb my way out of poverty if i ever fall into it!"

That's because hardly any women want to become prostitutes. It's very reasonable to think no visitors of boards.ie (let's face it, semi-nerds) wants to be a prostitute. So I am not surprised we have no girls here defending prostitution.

The boards.ie readership does not include prostitutes.

Shellie13 wrote:

Face it you say women "chose" the work..Never heard of a little girl saying "i wanna grow up and be a prostitute mammy!"

What does that have to do with anything? Firstly, children don't understand sex or prostitution. Secondly, I can think of thousands of jobs which children don't want to grow up to be. No little boy says he wants to grow up to work in a crappy office job. Yet most boys grow up and do just that.

And trying to imply that prostitutes don't choose to be prostitutes. Well then, how did they become prostitutes? Did they slip on the street, fall on a mans cock, and then get handed some money? No of course not. They choose to do it.

Why can't you just accept that some people want to be prostitutes? Yes, it's not for everyone (no one here thinks it is), but that doesn't mean the small number of women who want to do it should be stopped JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT.

Think about what you're saying...

simu

DOLEMAN wrote:

?? No! Laws should never be about morals. Everyone has different moral standards. As I have said, what is morally right for you is morally wrong for me. And vice versa. So our law should be based on, "will this harm people?"

But wot if it's morally right for me to harm people? !

DOLEMAN

simu wrote:

But wot if it's morally right for me to harm people? !

I think the law takes into account self defence.

You can't compare sex for money with killing someone really!

Bottle_of_Smoke

simu wrote:

Well, trafficking is a somewhat seperate issue and it has been getting more attention since that Prime Time docu a few weeks ago.

"Ordinary" prostitution is mostly ignored - apart from the voices of a few voluntary agencies. Sure, there's no votes in that sort of stuff!

Here we go again - dodge the question by changing the subject. Then you go and contradict yourself - If it was legal then ordinary prostitutes could sue someone if they got ignored/ they'd be covered by the same laws that apply to all workplaces.

Your all or nothing approach holds no advantage - seems you'd prefer to live in an escapist dreamworld hoping the problem will go away - which it NEVER will - than a world that would make life a little easier for those who choose to that line of work.

Is this just a moral issue of yours?

simu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Here we go again - dodge the question by changing the subject. Then you go and contradict yourself - If it was legal then ordinary prostitutes could sue someone if they got ignored/ they'd be covered by the same laws that apply to all workplaces.

Uh, wtf? Most prostitutes are not trafficked. And you could still have trafficking if prostitution were legal.

And "sue someone if they got ignored"? What does that even mean? You're not making much sense!

Your all or nothing approach holds no advantage - seems you'd prefer to live in an escapist dreamworld hoping the problem will go away - which it NEVER will - than a world that would make life a little easier for those who choose to that line of work.

Uh, have you actually read my posts? Maybe it won't ever disappear completely but there are certainly ways of minimising prostitution as a trade.

Is this just a moral issue of yours?

Calm down. o_O

simu

simu wrote:

Well, it's possible that things would change like you say but I'm not certain at all that it would happen. It would depend very much on the actual legislation.

Sure it would. In Ireland even the topic of sex is seen as something to be hidden. The opening of sex shops was a massive step forward, and yet public opinion still see's those shops as being shady. Which they are, because people expect them to be shady. The present legistlation towards lap dancing, sex shops, and porn is often presented in a manner of cleaning dirty dishes. We'll legalise it but even the language used will show our distaste for the industry.

As in, I don't think it could just be decriminalised because then you'd have all the people who work as pimps today becoming legit business people and I suspect they would still retain some of their present shadiness.

Agreed. Most lapdancing clubs in Ireland have some degree of relationship with crinimal organisations within Ireland. Abroad it isn't as common, but its still there. Because traditionally the sex industry no matter how legal is seen as being on the fringes of the crinimal world. And yet, the legal sources are becoming more acceptable in this society of ours, which wouldn't have acknowledged it even existing a few decades ago.

But to be honest, I favour decriminalisation not so much to do with the pimps, but rather the improvements that would be brought about for both the prostitutes and the clients. Better medical checks, the possibility of pensions, unions, better standardised pricing, better servicing, regulation of employment (licensing) etc.

But even that aside, most prostitutes have pimps for three main reasons. Protection/security, which wouldn't be needed since they could use the Gardai. Pimping (agents), which could now be avoided if they chose through legimae means of advertisment, and management could be performed on a more professional manner. Addiction/blackmail, regardless of what happens, this will occur.

Also, many of the women in the business today are there because of drug addiction or emotional abuse and so on and such people would be better off getting out of the business imho.

Many? As many as the women that enter for profit? Or they recognised they had something to sell?

I've known prostitutes as both a client and as a friend, and I've never met any, that were in that industry due to drug addiction or emotional abuse. They were in the industry cause they could make more money for less hours, than their college degrees could get them. I'm not saying that there aren't prostitutes forced into the industry, but to categorise the majority as being unwilling is a bit much. From my own personal experience, I've met only one prostitute (in Amsterdam) that had needle marks. In Russia its a different story altogether.

Procrastinator

It seems to me that most of this thread is arguing the toss (pardon the pun) of whether engaging in sex with a prostitute is legal/illegal, moral/immoral, abuse/economic transaction; all attempts to morally define the practice according to strict extremes, one way or the other.

Yes that is important, but I get the feeling that whatever pose is adopted, whatever the reasons for one either condoning or condemning it, one's personal reasons for wanting/not wanting to use a prostitute are at the heart of them.

Most folks here are annoymous, so please I'd love to know from those who use prostitutes, why YOU do so.

And if you don't, why not?

What are the real reasons that men go to prostitutes?

For my part, any female prostitute I ever met was very good at lying to herself, that it was all ok.
The fantasy of the client that he/she enjoys sex with them or at least doesn't mind it is key here. At some level, the client has to believe that the prostitute likes it, likes sex, and specificially likes sex with them, or at least has to be able to fool themselves into imagining this while the act is in progress. Nothing wrong there, but if it's just the satisfaction of a physical act, couldn't a potential client imagine just as successfully with a partner, or a lover, or a wife?




If it was strictly a matter of money and of paying for a service, then why go out with, or marry, or have a partner at all?

My question here is, I guess, why do both? Go to prostitutes and have steady relationships...at the same time?

I can appreciate people wanting different things at different times of their lives, but an explanation like that, although honest, would frighten most women I know.

Most folks here are annoymous, so please I'd love to know from those who use prostitutes, why YOU do so.

There's a number of reasons. But I would say that i'm by no means a regular visitor to their services. usually about twice a year, i'll do so. If i'm in Amsterdam , Germany or Spain, it might occur more often.

1) When I was younger (20-25) it was because I was very shy, and the repeated failed attempts got irritating real fast. So when those frustrations occured, an escort was a good option. And back then I didn't mind the impersonal business transaction you get here in Ireland.

2) I also shake, which I mention below. Took me a long time to get comfortable with dating with such a visible difference. Caused some very embarrassing moments, when I was a teenager. I could go to an escort without feeling any embarassment that I vibrate in bed. lol.

2) Nowadays, its for when I'm not in the mood for the usual ****e involved in meeting a woman in a bar. Most of the time its not an issue, but sometimes you get tired of having to go out (most of the night), mingle, sort out the bitches and ugly girls, and finally having to decide. If you meet anyone u want in the first place. lol. Know what I mean?

So, skip it, and just jump straight to the sex element. An hour, maybe two hours later i'm at home watching tv with a contented sigh. Its alot quicker than a meat-market club and sometimes a fair bit cheaper also.

What are the real reasons that men go to prostitutes?

From my experience,
1. Sex. The act of sex. No emotional ties. Just going through the actions, because you've got an itch.

2. Fetishes. You have some interest that either wouldn't be popular on the dating scene, or the idea of a prostitue turns you on. (It was rare 5 years ago that I'd meet Asian women in Ireland, whereas there's a fair number of asian escorts available to meet my Asian interest .

3. Illness/physical difficulty/Whatever. Simply put for many people sex is difficult. There's a variety of conitions, or circumstances, where people feel uncomfortable with women u meet in a bar, either through a disability or some other thing that sets u apart from the average person. (for myself, I shake alot. Kinda like Essential Tremor. I've had it since I was twelve, and its noticeable. For a Long time, it was hard to get past this when with women)
Prostitues/escorts whatever usually don't give a damn about it.

4. Attraction. U see an escort thats very attractive. That escort floats your boat. Whatever.

For my part, any female prostitute I ever met was very good at lying to herself, that it was all ok.

We're all very good at lying to ourselves. We mold the world to fit our prefered reality. When bad things happen, it might be normally someone elses fault, or you're stressed out all day because you enjoy your job. Whatever.

I've met escorts that loved their work. They actually enjoyed having sex . At the same time, I've known escorts that merely thought of it as a job, no different that women giving massages, or dancers. And I've met escorts that really hated their jobs, but were so ****ed up they'd never leave it until their looks disappeared.

I've met many escorts through the years. Some as friends, more for just sex. Escorts, are no different than us for the most part. The only difference is that they're willing to have sex for money. After all, we're willing to sell our limited [life] time in many cases for lower money than escorts can get. Maybe its us thats lying to ourselves, that suggests that sex has to be a wonderfully intimate, pure, and loving act.......?

If it was strictly a matter of money and of paying for a service, then why go out with, or marry, or have a partner at all?

I wouldn't marry an escort, but I'm willing to have sex with them. Just as I'm willing to have sex with women I meet in bars/clubs, but I don't want to marry them. Sometimes I'm prepared to have a girlfriend and all that it entails, sometimes now.

This is about choice. A or B or C. Choose.

The funny thing I find about this whole area, is that I've never felt any issues about escorts. Just as I've never had issues with priests and nuns choosing to be celibate. Or guys/gals who want to meet someone at 15 and marry that same person 3,5, 10 years later. I might not understand it, but as long as it doesn't harm anyone, whats the problem?

My question here is, I guess, why do both? Go to prostitutes and have steady relationships...at the same time?

I've never cheated in a relationship. Simple. Its never appealed to me. My core beliefs about myself, tell me that I wouldn't enjoy doing it or the consequences. Now, if I want someone else, I'll break up and move on, but nah, not my sort of thing.

But I would question you about something. There's been many occasions where both men and women cheat in a relationship, with people they meet in clubs/bars or through friends, whatever. They have sex with a stranger, or someone they actually know. However, its not their partner. If thats the case, why do both? Cause the only difference between this scenario and one with an escort, its the exchanging of money.........

DublinWriter

To be honest, it's a bit like paying someone to be your 'friend', isn't it?

Procrastinator

Klaz: thanks for the comprehensive reply.
The honesty's refreshing and informative.

The vibrating thing, that must have been really difficult in adolescence...

Not sure what to say now...you've given me some food for thought..

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote:

To be honest, it's a bit like paying someone to be your 'friend', isn't it?

err, not really. Only the very foolish would believe their escort is a friend. They're there for the cash. Sure, you can have alot of fun with them, and they might enjoy themselves with you, but you're still paying them to be there.

Saying that though, I've always found it easier and more fun to have friends amongst lapdancers, & escorts. Very down to earth sense of humor, and few "airs" about them. But I wouldn't trust them with my valuables, for the most part. There have been exceptions, who were completely trustworthy and lovely people. /shrugs.

Procrastinator wrote:

Klaz: thanks for the comprehensive reply.
The honesty's refreshing and informative.

lol. no worries. There's too much stigma about the act of sex in Ireland. I've never felt that way myself, but I've grown up beside people that did. Saying that though, I have cool parents. They've known for years that I've gone down the escort route, and regularly smoke hash. But I seriously doubt they'd want their friends knowing......

The vibrating thing, that must have been really difficult in adolescence...

It still is, and I'm 30 next year. But you gain witty replies after a while, and it doesn't impact as much on your dating like the start. Saying that though, I still meet women that cant get over the fact I have a tremor in my body. Strange, since I can ignore them having to bleed. Guess mine is a more obvious sign. As you might notice I'm still a bit bitter about the whole thing.

Not sure what to say now...you've given me some food for thought..

Any questions, ask away. Nice to be meet people with an open mind about this sort of "thing".

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote:

Sure, you can have alot of fun with them, and they might enjoy themselves with you, but you're still paying them to be there.

True, but I doubt someone would be telling people they are with an escort.

The reason one hires an escort is to pretend you didn't need to. You are hiring them to make it look like you didn't need to hire an escort.

I think that is what Dublin means when he says paying someone to be your friend, to make it look like you have friends. If you actually did you wouldn't need to pay someone to be your friend. Which is kinda sad, but i suppose everyone needs to pretend now and again

metrovelvet

Its also a way for them to avoid fore-fore play and post coital expectations.

Also when you say escort - your talking a different status of whore than lets say a streetwalker right?

So, if you found out that your wife once upon a time was an "escort" you'd be ok with that? since :

Escorts, are no different than us for the most part. The only difference is that they're willing to have sex for money. After all, we're willing to sell our limited [life] time in many cases for lower money than escorts can get. Maybe its us thats lying to ourselves, that suggests that sex has to be a wonderfully intimate, pure, and loving act.......?