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Should IT be legalised?

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    #62
    Spalk0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Spalk0


    BolBill wrote:
    They'll never legalise Mary Jane, because its a drug that makes people happy(generally), people wouldn't go to work because they'd wonder why they have to!!!!!
    Alcohol keeps us all depressed and in line with what the government wants.

    Course they'll go to work, they have to pay for it dont they!It never stopped me going to work.....In fact alcohol has stopped me going into work many times before!Not cannibis!


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    #63
    FX Meister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,217 ✭✭✭FX Meister


    Gurgle wrote:
    AFAIK SSRI drugs are used as anti-depressants. They are used in dosages to keep the patient happy all the time 24/7. Stopping the dosages is going to lead to a relapse into the original condition which was being treated. Presumably the patient had become psychologically addicted to not being depressed.
    Exactly, that's as far as you know and you are wrong.
    Alcohol and cigarettes are physiologically addictive, like heroin and cocaine. Thats my point!
    They are also psychologically addictive, that was one of my points.
    'They' are the cynical conservatives in the USA who started the anti-cannabis mis-information campaign with the Marajuana Tax Act
    So you apply what you interpret 'they' are saying in regard to one situation and apply it across the board? I think you'll find times have changed some what since 1937


    Read Blub's testimonial above.
    I've read it, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.


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    #64
    BolBill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭BolBill


    Trigger! wrote:
    Course they'll go to work, they have to pay for it dont they!It never stopped me going to work.....In fact alcohol has stopped me going into work many times before!Not cannibis!

    I weas joking maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan !!!! :rolleyes:


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    #65
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    Gurgle wrote:
    Fair play to you, seriously, but do you not think that maybe the problem is either your own personal psychological problem which led you to take hard drugs in the first place, or a result of your usage of hard drugs ?

    Now you are coming around to it, the substance is irrelevant, my mental state was the fertile ground that addiction needed to take place. It was filled happily by any substance or activity that got the dopamine, endorphins, serotonin running.
    Gurgle wrote:
    Again, I would think that the person had a problem and the cannabis usage is a symptom rather than the cause. I never have and never will steal to pay for pot.

    Addiction is generally when the symptoms become a problem that someone calls it an addiction. You state cannabis is not addictive, I have enough experience both personal and anecdotal to convince me otherwise.

    Gurgle wrote:
    I have never seen that, but none of the smokers I know have ever been hard drug addicts.

    In the cases that I am talking about none of the people were hard drug addicts, just very heavy smokers.

    Gurgle wrote:
    Actually, you raise another point. If legalised, cannabis would be very beneficial in rehabilitating drug addicts.

    When I made the comment that you had no idea about addiction I was referring to your rather narrow view and not attempting to insult you.


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    #66
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    FX Meister wrote:
    Exactly, that's as far as you know and you are wrong.
    Thank you for your detailed explanation, I can see clearly now!
    FX Meister wrote:
    So you apply what you interpret 'they' are saying in regard to one situation and apply it across the board? I think you'll find times have changed some what since 1937

    That was the start of the trend of western government arbitrarily declaring substances illegal based on the government agenda rather than the actual properties and effects of the substance.

    Yes, times have changed. People are more educated and don't need (or appreciate) their governments controlling aspects of their lives that they are fully capable of (and should be entitled to) controlling themselves.
    FX Meister wrote:
    I've read it, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
    You not thinking it the right thing to do does not make it the wrong thing to do.


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    #67
    Spalk0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Spalk0


    BolBill wrote:
    I weas joking maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan !!!! :rolleyes:

    Bit hard to tell your joking maaaaaaaaaannnn!!!!! :rolleyes:

    Ever hear of a smiley or something! :D;)

    gives a bit more of an indication that your joking!


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    #68
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    Cannabis was first made illegal as a result of a conference in Egypt in the 20's when they first villified it as an addictive substance, the rest all followed suit.

    Methadone is a bad substance when it comes to treating addicts, they end up addicted to methadone which is a harder withdrawal than H, seems silly to me, but methadone is controlled by Pharma companies and heroin is not, that is the difference. Business dictates how people are treated whether it is in their best interests or not, in this case not.
    I am out of the scene now and was never into it in Ireland but I do know a guy who is back on heroin so he can do a heroin cold turkey and not a methadone one, he has gone back on H to get off of methadone which highlights how BS the system is and how fugged up policy is on addicts.

    Cannabis can help to fill a gap I dont suggest it should be used as a replacement therapy although it wont work with opiates anyway until you have cold turkied.


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    #69
    Cactus Col
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭Cactus Col


    If it was legalised would people be happy to smoke it outside ... after all I'm sure it would be under the same rules as tobacco smoking ... especially as cannibas smoke contains a higher concentration of carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) than tobacco smoke..

    it would be grand at home, but standing outside a pub in the rain ... not so good

    (actually the higher chance of getting cancer from it would be one of my main reasons for not legalising it)


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    #70
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Blub2k4 wrote:
    Now you are coming around to it, the substance is irrelevant, my mental state was the fertile ground that addiction needed to take place. It was filled happily by any substance or activity that got the dopamine, endorphins, serotonin running.
    I am beginning to understand what you're saying.
    You probably shouldn't do drugs.
    Blub2k4 wrote:
    Addiction is generally when the symptoms become a problem that someone calls it an addiction. You state cannabis is not addictive, I have enough experience both personal and anecdotal to convince me otherwise.
    Fair enough, my experience differs but I don't know the background to yours so I can't comment.
    Blub2k4 wrote:
    When I made the comment that you had no idea about addiction I was referring to your rather narrow view and not attempting to insult you.
    I am taking a narrow view, I'm only talking about cannabis and its recreational use. I don't know anything first hand about hard drugs, and I have no desire to find out. My knowledge of addiction is limited to a couple of alcoholics in the family, and cigarette smokers (including me).
    Cactus Col wrote:
    It would be grand at home, but standing outside a pub in the rain ... not so good

    Mixing pot with booze - really not good anyway.


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    #71
    FX Meister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,217 ✭✭✭FX Meister


    So myself and a lot of other people thinking it's wrong to make a person who has smoked Heroin a few times enter a program where they become dependent on methadone is wrong means that we are wrong? Surely you were the one saying the government was wrong and shouldn't be controlling us. A lot of people are put on SSRIs so that they can get help for their illness and deal with it with their brain in a fairly stable pattern. Once they have dealt with their illness and they no longer need the SSRIs they often do not want to come off them as they believe they will return the the state they were in before their treatment. This is a physcological dependence on their drugs. Illnesses that SSRI's treat are not quite as simple as you seem to think and do not just switch on and off as easily as you presume. You don't seem to grasp the concept of addiction. Maybe try to inform your opinions a little bit and open your mind.


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    #72
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    FX Meister wrote:
    So myself and a lot of other people thinking it's wrong to make a person who has smoked Heroin a few times enter a program where they become dependent on methadone is wrong means that we are wrong? Surely you were the one saying the government was wrong and shouldn't be controlling us. A lot of people are put on SSRIs so that they can get help for their illness and deal with it with their brain in a fairly stable pattern. Once they have dealt with their illness and they no longer need the SSRIs they often do not want to come off them as they believe they will return the the state they were in before their treatment. This is a physcological dependence on their drugs. Illnesses that SSRI's treat are not quite as simple as you seem to think and do not just switch on and off as easily as you presume. You don't seem to grasp the concept of addiction.
    relevance ?
    FX Meister wrote:
    Maybe try to inform your opinions a little bit and open your mind.
    This is a discussion board, seemed like a good place to inform my opinions. Actually I've learned quite a bit from reading other people's posts on this thread but you have not really let any actual information slip.


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    #73
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,181 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Cactus Col wrote:
    If it was legalised would people be happy to smoke it outside ... after all I'm sure it would be under the same rules as tobacco smoking ... especially as cannibas smoke contains a higher concentration of carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) than tobacco smoke..

    it would be grand at home, but standing outside a pub in the rain ... not so good

    (actually the higher chance of getting cancer from it would be one of my main reasons for not legalising it)
    You've never been to a boards beer have ye? ;)


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    #74
    Cactus Col
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭Cactus Col


    Sleepy wrote:
    You've never been to a boards beer have ye? ;)

    Are you coming on to me? ...

    coz. .. I 'm flattered and all ... but ... you know ... I'm kinda busy for the next while ... dont really swing that way ... it's all good though ...


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    #75
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    Gurgle wrote:
    I am beginning to understand what you're saying.
    You probably shouldn't do drugs.

    I am ok these days, I have things to live for now and am not as self-destructive as I used to be.
    I smoke regularly and maybe once or twice a year do an E or a line, nothing else, I have gotten out of the mental hole that I was in and it is no longer a problem as it was then.

    He puts it very well at the end of trainspotting with the whole "I chose life" speech, spot on in fact.


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    #76
    BolBill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭BolBill


    Trigger! wrote:
    Bit hard to tell your joking maaaaaaaaaannnn!!!!! :rolleyes:

    Ever hear of a smiley or something! :D;)

    gives a bit more of an indication that your joking!


    Sorry triiiiigggggggggggggggggggggeeeeeeeeer :p


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    #77
    FX Meister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,217 ✭✭✭FX Meister


    Gurgle wrote:
    relevance ?
    You can't follow your own arguments or posts and see the flaws pointed out, that's not my fault. Perhaps you can't see some problems your smoking is causing? That's all I have to say on this matter.


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    #78
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,181 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Cactus Col wrote:
    Are you coming on to me? ...

    coz. .. I 'm flattered and all ... but ... you know ... I'm kinda busy for the next while ... dont really swing that way ... it's all good though ...
    I was referring to the standing outside smoking bit. It tends to happen at boards beers and it's great craic :)


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    #79
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    FX Meister wrote:
    Perhaps you can't see some problems your smoking is causing? That's all I have to say on this matter.

    Ooooh a Parthian shot, and a very low one, why not stay and educate the guy, rather than make tenuous links between his alleged incomprehension and smoking dope?


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    #80
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Blub2k4 wrote:
    Methadone is a bad substance when it comes to treating addicts, they end up addicted to methadone which is a harder withdrawal than H, seems silly to me, but methadone is controlled by Pharma companies and heroin is not, that is the difference. Business dictates how people are treated whether it is in their best interests or not, in this case not.
    Just a thought; can you become addicted to heroin after becoming addicted to methadone? I ask, as it'd be a sweet way to garuntee people not going back to heroin if it was. Also, methadone can be produced legally & cheaply (it must be; it can be given out free), and therefore can be a long term solution.

    A rather f*cked up solution, but thats goverment for you.

    Finally; if your on methadone, can you function normally? If you can, it sounds like a "good" drug.


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    #81
    FX Meister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,217 ✭✭✭FX Meister


    Because I don't think it'll make much difference what I say. He made an ignorant statement on SSRIs, I then explained as he had asked me too. He then asked what relevance the post had. What's the point in explaining something to someone when after they have heard the answer they can't remember the question or follow the conversation.


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    #82
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    the_syco wrote:
    Just a thought; can you become addicted to heroin after becoming addicted to methadone? I ask, as it'd be a sweet way to garuntee people not going back to heroin if it was. Also, methadone can be produced legally & cheaply (it must be; it can be given out free), and therefore can be a long term solution.

    A rather f*cked up solution, but thats goverment for you.

    Finally; if your on methadone, can you function normally? If you can, it sounds like a "good" drug.

    It is more harmful than Heroin, why not just give pure medical heroin to users?
    That would be a long term solution, the problem the "moral majority" have with that is the "anti-buzz" mentality, it cant be good as a treatment if they get high?
    Methadone gets sold on the streets, a lot of users go to the clinic, swallow their meth in front of the doc and then go outside and spit it out, this they then trade for smack, where is the sense in that?
    Anyway a hash legalisation thread is being hi-jacked.


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    #83
    FX Meister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,217 ✭✭✭FX Meister


    the_syco wrote:
    Just a thought; can you become addicted to heroin after becoming addicted to methadone? I ask, as it'd be a sweet way to garuntee people not going back to heroin if it was. Also, methadone can be produced legally & cheaply (it must be; it can be given out free), and therefore can be a long term solution.
    A rather f*cked up solution, but thats goverment for you.
    Finally; if your on methadone, can you function normally? If you can, it sounds like a "good" drug.

    Again it's not a solution, it's just a way of controlling the problem. It is relatively cheap, certainly cheaper than keeping an addict in prison. But surely the government should be looking at rehabiliating people instead of just turning them into zombies. As I've said before, they give methadone to people who are new to Heroin, people who should be given alternative methods of help.


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    #84
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    FX Meister wrote:
    Again it's not a solution, it's just a way of controlling the problem. It is relatively cheap, certainly cheaper than keeping an addict in prison. But surely the government should be looking at rehabiliating people instead of just turning them into zombies. As I've said before, they give methadone to people who are new to Heroin, people who should be given alternative methods of help.

    Where do they give methadone to people who are new to heroin? From what I have seen it goes only to the chronic "walking dead" types and not people who have only had a few smokes off foil.
    There is stuff called Naltrexone that is given to people who are already clean to stop them relapsing by blocking the heroin receptors in the brain so even if you did take it there would be no effect.
    I would be curious where you get your information, as it does not tally with what I know.

    The rehabilitation idea is noble but in some cases it is about quality of life and saving lives, not always about rehabilitation. If that means giving them pure (pretty harmless) medicinal heroin then maybe you save a granny or two and a few shop windows, and the addict WILL not drop out of the treatment program, after a while then you work on the root causes, that is the model in Switzerland that has worked quite successfully for a few years now.


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    #85
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    This:
    FX Meister wrote:
    So myself and a lot of other people thinking it's wrong to make a person who has smoked Heroin a few times enter a program where they become dependent on methadone is wrong means that we are wrong? Surely you were the one saying the government was wrong and shouldn't be controlling us. A lot of people are put on SSRIs so that they can get help for their illness and deal with it with their brain in a fairly stable pattern. Once they have dealt with their illness and they no longer need the SSRIs they often do not want to come off them as they believe they will return the the state they were in before their treatment. This is a physcological dependence on their drugs. Illnesses that SSRI's treat are not quite as simple as you seem to think and do not just switch on and off as easily as you presume. You don't seem to grasp the concept of addiction. Maybe try to inform your opinions a little bit and open your mind.

    is an explanation ?

    This part:
    FX Meister wrote:
    Once they have dealt with their illness and they no longer need the SSRIs they often do not want to come off them as they believe they will return the the state they were in before their treatment.
    does not deal with the question of psychological addiction to a substance, it relates to a pre-existing condition.

    The patient wants to retain their 'crutch' because they believe it will help them continue to deal with their problem.

    Psychological addiction as relating to the recreational use of cannabis does not compare to somebody who had a psychological illness in the first place.
    Blub2K4 wrote:
    that is the model in Switzerland that has worked quite successfully for a few years now.
    I have heard that heroin can be bought on prescription in Switzerland for around €2 per gramme.
    Anybody know if thats true ?


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    #86
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    Gurgle wrote:
    Psychological addiction as relating to the recreational use of cannabis does not compare to somebody who had a psychological illness in the first place.


    It does actually it is a chicken and egg argument.


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    #87
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    Gurgle wrote:
    I have heard that heroin can be bought on prescription in Switzerland for around €2 per gramme.
    Anybody know if thats true ?


    What I have heard is that it is given out to the chronic (read not long left to live) guys who jump over counters etc that are on a really bad run and have nothing left to lose.
    I was not aware that they took money for it.

    Last word on this off-topic subject here, if anyone wants to discuss it further start a heroin vs methadone or addiction thread, we have well and truly hijacked this thread from the original intention.


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    #88
    Boggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    Right - enough of the Methadone crap. It is irrelevant to this thread!

    What was asked were why isn't marry joanna legal... do any of you have a definitive answer? It is less dangerous than alcohol... fair enough some people can get addicted but studies show that it is much less addictive than alcohol so if alcohol should be legal then there goes that argument out the window.


    Have ye any other reasons to ban it or is it just that you dont like it?


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    #89
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    Boggle wrote:
    Right - enough of the Methadone crap. It is irrelevant to this thread!

    What was asked were why isn't marry joanna legal... do any of you have a definitive answer? It is less dangerous than alcohol... fair enough some people can get addicted but studies show that it is much less addictive than alcohol so if alcohol should be legal then there goes that argument out the window.


    Have ye any other reasons to ban it or is it just that you dont like it?


    It developed as such cos people were interested in the replacement value of cannabis in a therapeutic sense, if you read the whole thread you would see that, I also stated to stop the hijack twice.


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    #90
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Boggle wrote:
    Have ye any other reasons to ban it or is it just that you dont like it?
    As far as gooooooooogle can tell me, if a latent schizophrenic uses a lot of cannabis, the schizophrenia can become active.

    Most of the reports I found seem to start out with a group of schizophrenics and question them about their cannabis use. Generally a much larger proportion of schizophrenics use cannabis than non-schizophrenics.

    Other sites point out that schizophrenia usually becomes active in late teens and that experimenting with drugs is usually a teenage activity, so the two may not be causally related.

    Still others report schizophrenics using cannabis to control their condition.

    And then there are reports (for and against) where the 'researchers' knew what they were trying to 'prove' before they started the investigation. These reports are totally useless.

    As Blub2k4 says, its a chicken or egg question.


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    #91
    Blub2k4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭Blub2k4


    Gurgle wrote:
    As far as gooooooooogle can tell me, if a latent schizophrenic uses a lot of cannabis, the schizophrenia can become active.

    Most of the reports I found seem to start out with a group of schizophrenics and question them about their cannabis use. Generally a much larger proportion of schizophrenics use cannabis than non-schizophrenics.

    Other sites point out that schizophrenia usually becomes active in late teens and that experimenting with drugs is usually a teenage activity, so the two may not be causally related.

    Still others report schizophrenics using cannabis to control their condition.

    And then there are reports (for and against) where the 'researchers' knew what they were trying to 'prove' before they started the investigation. These reports are totally useless.

    As Blub2k4 says, its a chicken or egg question.


    This has happened to a relative of mine, she got severely ill from long-term cannabis abuse.

    The thing is though that there is a theory that most drug abusers are self-medicating themselves for pre-existing mental conditions.... chicken and egg.<edit> I just saw that you have this point included.


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