Should IT be legalised?

Cactus Col

I was a little bit bored and was wondering whether people here thought the maryjane should be legalised here.

While I'm sure there have been a million previous threads about this I couldn't see one right away so thought I'd ask about people's opinions, whether they support the legalisation or not .. and what arguments they have for or against.

While I think it should not be legalised at the moment (I'll put my arguments down once I can write them [or more properly it] clearly.

Maximilian

Should be de-criminalised at least. Its a horrible name but if they want to call their kids Mary Jane or Mary Sue, it should be up to them.

Boggle

Fail to see any specific reason to ban it so why not legalise it?

Aava

No it shouldn't, this country is bad enough as it is.

Sleepy

I'd be for this on pretty much the same grounds I'd be for the legalisation of fireworks. It could be legitimised, quality could be controlled, it's widely available anyway and tax revenue could be generated on it.

The gateway drug argument no more holds up for marijuana than it does for alcohol.

In my opinion (and I'm sure it's been proven by research) it's a less damaging drug than alcohol and it's been proven to be of use in treating the symptoms of a number of ailments.

Like many other substances, abuse of marijuana can be dangerous to your (mental) health but it's no more a risk than any of these.

That said, I'm a pretty liberal person where personal choice is concerned (though I do expect people to live up to the consequences of their choices). I don't see it happening any time soon in our repressive society.

Kêrmêttê

An old friend of mine has MS and her symptoms would be greatly reduced if she could be allowed to have maraijuana. I also met another girl from Canada a few years ago who was suffering from leukemia. She was prescribed small doses to aid her treatment.
There are definately many medical arguments to pro-legalisation.

stevenmu

The main reason I can see for legalising it is to take it out of the hands of the drug dealing scum who bring it in. I'm not talking about your "mate who just sells a bit to some of the lads" but the people further up the chain who do other things besides selling weed.

edit: Oh yeah, medical reasons are good too.

mayordenis

Aava wrote:

No it shouldn't, this country is bad enough as it is.

one of the biggest problems in this country is drug dealing, to take that away would be a far better society

ro_chez

Aava wrote:

No it shouldn't, this country is bad enough as it is.

Care to elaborate on that?

Personally I think it definitely should be for all the reasons mentioned, and to get some real weed in this country instead of the contaminated crap alot of people smoke in this country which is far more dangerous than some nice quality bud.

steveland?

Aava wrote:

No it shouldn't, this country is bad enough as it is.

Yeh god forbid we should all chill out a little.

Anyways I'm kind of split on this issue. On the one hand I'm not a big fan of having to buy it off of shady people where ya dont know what you're getting and I'd rather the money not go to drug dealers or drug producers.

On the other hand if it was legalised it would probably only be de-criminalised as opposed to allowing you to just go up to the local hash shop and buyin an ounce or whatever...

The government would probably put huge levys on it too and i'd be too flaked to go out and work and earn money to buy it if it were widely available.

Plus no chances of hash bars like in amsterdam cos of the smoking ban

stevieg_irl

oh ya, legalise it big time
wudnt have to bum the makings of a friend then

Piste

If it were legalised wouldn't there still be dealers (albeit much less of them) around willing to sell hash at a much cheaper price then the inevitably highly-taxed hash?

stagolee

Gummybearz!!! wrote:

If it were legalised wouldn't there still be dealers (albeit much less of them) around willing to sell hash at a much cheaper price then the inevitably highly-taxed hash?

i dont think so as they wouldnt realy be able to undercut legitimate taxed importers who dont have to go to the risk of smuggling (i mean if you look at the price of tobbacco for the weight sold and imagined them selling grass for the same price), also most people would buy at legitimate vendors taking away such a large percentage of the market from smugglers that the big time smugglers would soon see there was little or no money left to be made in it and stop.

personaly i think that it should certainly be legalized as among other things it might provide an alternative to our alcahol obsessed culture, i would love to quit the drink for a while but its impossible as the only place i can meet my freinds is at the pub and its just no fun sitting there stone cold sober and watching them get progressivley more rat arsed.

maybe hash bars here wouldnt be so impossible if it was a totaly new industry maybe they could only hire smokers and get them to sign some sort of form before they started work saying they didnt mind working in an environment with marajuanna smoke (tobacco smoke would still have to be banned though or the regular pubs would be up in arms) or failing that they could be mostly outdoor ventures,

ah all this talk of grass is making me want to go out and try find some, its been nigh on six months since i last had a spliff

NotMe

stagolee wrote:

i dont think so as they wouldnt realy be able to undercut legitimate taxed importers who dont have to go to the risk of smuggling (i mean if you look at the price of tobbacco for the weight sold and imagined them selling grass for the same price), also most people would buy at legitimate vendors taking away such a large percentage of the market from smugglers that the big time smugglers would soon see there was little or no money left to be made in it and stop.

What about the people selling ciggarettes for cheap? No doubt the criminals would rob shipments of hash and sell it for cheap like they do with ciggarettes.

Anyway I say legalise it.

phoenix2181

legalise it & let the govt tax the hell out of it (as much as cigs), cuts out the dealer scum & we could have some fine quality grass for a change.

The Govt could also put a percentage of the profits made from it into anti-smoking campaigns (yes yes I know) & some of it into extra drug squads to get rid of the hard sh1t (coke,H etc) that Junkie scum are trying to deal to the kids.

So remember kids...vote for Phoenix2181 in the next election

Lisapeep

If it were legalised, current users would still buy it, but also new users would start using it because of how convenient it would become to obtain. I'd say keep users to a minimum.

Tiriel

I say they should decriminalise it for the moment.. I mean people are better citizens after a smoke than drink after all.. I mean you couldn't be bothered gettin into a fight .. it'd be like oh yeah.. later..

elivsvonchiaing

I think it should be legalised for medical purposes- with unlimited supply.

I see myself in 40 years surrounded, by 3 generations - constantly visiting me

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Lisapeep wrote:

If it were legalised, current users would still buy it, but also new users would start using it because of how convenient it would become to obtain. I'd say keep users to a minimum.

it already is everywhere, the people who want to smoke it do smoke it. if it were decriminalised there would be a small surge of new tokers just trying it out, some would decide to keep smoking.. and most wouldn't. It's not addictive and it's not incredibly harmful so there is no good reason to "keep users to a minimum" excepting of course moral outrage.

anyway as was shown in holland, decriminlisation does not lead to a large increase in the number of users. It rose slightly at first but once the novelty of it wore off alot of people stopped smoking, quite a large percentage of the dutch population doesn't smoke weed. It's just another drug over there, I was staying at a friends house talking to his mother about how it was illegal over here. She doesn't smoke but she was shocked when I told her you could be arrested and sent to jail for selling it, she didn't understand why something so harmless would be criminalised.

I agree with her

stagolee

NotMe: "What about the people selling ciggarettes for cheap? No doubt the criminals would rob shipments of hash and sell it for cheap like they do with ciggarettes"

the guys flogging crap tobacco on moore st. are probaly the best example of what i mean , almost nobody buys that stuff off them cos it not much cheaper and most people would prefer to go to a shop , so what do you have? a few aul fellas making pocket change. whereas cannabis import currently nets millions for criminals that have large well organized smuggling operations , why? 'cos theres a demand for it and you cant get it in the shops

Lisapeep: "If it were legalised, current users would still buy it, but also new users would start using it because of how convenient it would become to obtain."

hopefully a few of them would , and they might drink less as a result. now saying this is probably about as wise as standing up in the middle of an american republican party convention and shouting "I LOVE BIN LADEN" at the top of my voice but i think booze is bad :eek: , im only slowly coming to this realization as ive been drinking as long as i can remember and so has almost everyone else i know (it can be hard to see things from so close up). i for one would welcome legalization as it would mean i could meet my freinds down the local for a spliff or two , ahh the bliss no fist fights cos you looked at someone funny no having the ear bored off you by a morbidy drunk mate who has decided because theyre drunk that everyone hates them , no horrible f**king hangover in the morning, imagine all the people hanging out in peace with nothing more to worry about than a fit of the giggles or the munchies (right id better shut up now befor i break into song )

elivsvonchiaing

stagolee wrote:

no horrible f**king hangover in the morning, imagine all the people hanging out in peace with nothing more to worry about than a fit of the giggles or the munchies (right id better shut up now befor i break into song )

Imagine no posessions... {Wtf is rainbow_kirby when needed} I do agree with legalising it on a phased basis. Still think it should be initially medicinal - so driving legistlation can be brought into line first. What's the drug clinically called anyhow. How many mg/100ml blood should be allowed? Anyone know?

Blub2k4

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

so driving legistlation can be brought into line first. What's the drug clinically called anyhow. How many mg/100ml blood should be allowed? Anyone know?

As far as I know this is one of the major obstacles to legalisation as it is. Nobody really knows how much in your system should be allowed.

Spalk0

Lisapeep wrote:

If it were legalised, current users would still buy it, but also new users would start using it because of how convenient it would become to obtain. I'd say keep users to a minimum.

Actually Lisa i think i read this somewhere but since its been legalised in Amsterdam the number of local users has dropped and is below the european average!
I personally am for legalising it!first of all it will get the dealers off the street and bring in proper stuff!I also think violence would drop, reason for this, how Stone people have you come across who wanna start a fight?not many and i cant imagine many either!it will also divert us away from our binge drinking which is far more dangerous than smoking weed!
The only bad thing i can see about it is that it will probably cost more with tax and all but at least it will be very good!

My 2 cents worth!

FX Meister

Mordeth wrote:

It's not addictive and it's not incredibly harmful so there is no good reason to "keep users to a minimum" excepting of course moral outrage.
she was shocked when I told her you could be arrested and sent to jail for selling it, she didn't understand why something so harmless would be criminalised.

For a start it is not harmless, and to say it's not addictive is just being naive. It is psychologically addictive and I've both read studies on this and witnessed it in people I know. And as for getting sent to jail for selling it, if you go to jail for selling it then you are obviously smuggling very large quantities or you are a serious repeat offender and deserve time in jail. They system gives you more chances to clean up your act than you deserve.

Gurgle

Blub2k4 wrote:

As far as I know this is one of the major obstacles to legalisation as it is. Nobody really knows how much in your system should be allowed.

This could be determined in the space of a week with a handful of willing test subjects:

Take a toke, give a blood sample, drive around the circuit, repeat until crash.

Of course, for the government to commission the report would cost €160 million.

On the original question, of course it should be legalised, for all the given reasons. Nothing should be illegal without scientific evidence that there exists a real measureable significant risk involved in using it.

Spalk0

FX Meister wrote:

For a start it is not harmless, and to say it's not addictive is just being naive. It is psychologically addictive and I've both read studies on this and witnessed it in people I know. And as for getting sent to jail for selling it, if you go to jail for selling it then you are obviously smuggling very large quantities or you are a serious repeat offender and deserve time in jail. They system gives you more chances to clean up your act than you deserve.

While i agree its psycologically addictive it is far less addictive than alcohol!why is it loads of people in this country have such a relaxed attitude about(in my experience) a far more dangerous substance in alcohol and are yet totally against a far milder one in cannibis?I think i heard that not one person has died from an overdose on cannibis and dont get me started on the thousands that are killed from alcohol every year!

Gurgle

FX Meister wrote:

For a start it is not harmless

Neither are alcohol, tobacco, sugar, E-numbers, cream buns, and lots of other legal things. Not good enough.

FX Meister wrote:

and to say it's not addictive is just being naive. It is psychologically addictive

IMHO psychological addiction is a made up term for when they want to keep something illegal even though its not addictive.

Really addictive things - Alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, heroin, cocaine, morphine, prozac.
Yet the only substance in the world on the 'psychologically addictive' list is marajuana ?

FX Meister wrote:

and I've both read studies on this and witnessed it in people I know.

Thats called anecdotal evidence. It doesn't count.

FX Meister wrote:

And as for getting sent to jail for selling it, if you go to jail for selling it then you are obviously smuggling very large quantities or you are a serious repeat offender and deserve time in jail. They system gives you more chances to clean up your act than you deserve.

Yep, you're dead right, people don't get sent to jail unless they are caught smuggling large quantities. Thats because the gardai and the judges know perfectly well that its largely harmless.

Blub2k4

Gurgle wrote:

This could be determined in the space of a week with a handful of willing test subjects:

Take a toke, give a blood sample, drive around the circuit, repeat until crash.

Of course, for the government to commission the report would cost €160 million.

On the original question, of course it should be legalised, for all the given reasons. Nothing should be illegal without scientific evidence that there exists a real measureable significant risk involved in using it.

It appears that it is not that easy, the Dutch dont even know how to regulate it. I know the Germans were seriously considering the Dutch model while I was living there and what stopped them was a blood:thc level test for the roadside, they were eventually talking about banning anyone who had any THC in their blood.

Gurgle

Blub2k4 wrote:

they were eventually talking about banning anyone who had any THC in their blood.

If the market was there, one of these multinational Pharmaceuticals would have a DIY test for sale within months.

FX Meister

Gurgle wrote:

Neither are alcohol, tobacco, sugar, E-numbers, cream buns, and lots of other legal things. Not good enough.


IMHO psychological addiction is a made up term for when they want to keep something illegal even though its not addictive.

Really addictive things - Alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, heroin, cocaine, morphine, prozac.
Yet the only substance in the world on the 'psychologically addictive' list is marajuana ?


Thats called anecdotal evidence. It doesn't count.


Yep, you're dead right, people don't get sent to jail unless they are caught smuggling large quantities. Thats because the gardai and the judges know perfectly well that its largely harmless.

I don't really feel like getting into an argument about it but your comparison to cream buns and sugar hold no weight at all. You also think psychological addiction is a made up term, that's just ignorant. And it is not the only drug on the 'psychologically addictive' list as you call it. And because I've read studies on it's effects and have also seen these effects first hand they don't count? Do you think that the Gardai and Judges decide they believe themselves that cannabis is harmless so let dealers away with it? There are plenty of crimes that people commit who get second chances afterwards. You seem to be taking a very immature view of this whole argument.

Blub2k4

Gurgle wrote:

IMHO psychological addiction is a made up term for when they want to keep something illegal even though its not addictive.

Really addictive things - Alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, heroin, cocaine, morphine, prozac.
Yet the only substance in the world on the 'psychologically addictive' list is marajuana ?

You're talking rubbish man, Gambling is also phychologically addictive, or do you think that the only addiction is physiological? Do you actually know the difference between Psychological and physiological which are both made up words, I mean all words are made up.
THC is addictive, I have seen people sell furniture to score an eighth.

Kone

Blub2k4 wrote:

THC is addictive, I have seen people sell furniture to score an eighth.

it was a great suite of furniture and all :rolleyes:

Spalk0

Well i have never seen someone sell furniture or anything to that extreme to buy hash!I have felt the twinge of addiction towards it myself but it doesnt holhd a candle towards the addiction of cigarettes or alcohol!

Gurgle

Blub2k4 wrote:

You're talking rubbish man, Gambling is also phychologically addictive, or do you think that the only addiction is physiological?

Gambling is not a substance. THC is not an activity.
Yes, I think the only addiction to a substance is physiological. Thats what addiction means in terms of a drug.

Blub2k4 wrote:

Do you actually know the difference between Psychological and physiological which are both made up words, I mean all words are made up.

:rolleyes: Read what I posted. The actual words.

Blub2k4 wrote:

THC is addictive, I have seen people sell furniture to score an eighth.

This sentence actually gives more information than you might think:
1. Your friends have really really crap furniture.
2. Your friends need to get jobs

One eighth costs about €12.50 and would last an average 'evening' smoker about a week.

Thats the price of 2 packs of cigarettes.

Or 3 pints.

User45701

Bill Hicks said that pot was a better drug than drink because whenever there is a fight ppl are drunk and that maryjane would just calm everyone down and it would be anice ahhpy wourdl with lots of hungry happy high ppl wondering around

Blub2k4

Gurgle wrote:

Gambling is not a substance. THC is not an activity.
Yes, I think the only addiction to a substance is physiological. Thats what addiction means in terms of a drug.

You have absolutely no idea about addiction.

Gurgle

Blub2k4 wrote:

You have absolutely no idea about addiction.

I do know that I can smoke the stuff on a daily basis for a year then give up for weeks without any ill effects, except that I smoke more cigarettes when I've no pot.

But I do appreciate you educating me about your first hand knowledge on the subject. Please go on, give some more examples of desperate people selling their property and their bodies for their desperately needed joint.

Maybe you should recount(read: make up) a story about pensioners being mugged and robbed by a desperate stoner ?

MrJoeSoap

Can see the pros and cons but have to say no.

ionapaul

Gurgle wrote:

Nothing should be illegal without scientific evidence that there exists a real measureable significant risk involved in using it.

You try this logic with GM foods (ask for some proof that they are harmful) and see how crazy people will become telling you that anything genetically modified is un-natural and is bad for you!

I don't think hash bars are an option under the present smoking laws.

Spalk0

Sorry chief but he is making more sense than you at the moment!Gambling is not something physical, its mental.....whereas THC or whatever it is is a physical substance!Ive smoked heavily for years yet i never found myself addicted to it!it wouldnt surprise me if it was largely exaggerated or made up!but i never thought i needed it i just enjoyed it alot hence i done alot!

ferdi

decriminalisation is the way for now, but this country is so full of **** kicking, bible bashing, ignorant 'dont know what they are talking about' assholes that it wont happen.

any reasonable person whos judgement isnt clouded by what politicians, clerics and the media tell them can see the complete insanity of having alcohol legal and cannabis illegal.

how many alcohol related deaths in the last 10 years in ireland? i would look it up but the figures would probably scare the **** out of me.

...

Tiesto

I dont think so.
i have been to amsterdam a number of times and i have talked to many dutch people about it..
Yea they thinks its good for some reasons...
such as the obvíous ones..
U know what ur buying instead of going to the streets getting the not so good stuff.. and the government making some money from the tax on it...
but the Dutch government didnt see coming the massive amounts of illegal drugs in amsterdam which can be obtained very easily..... or the large amounts of drug addicted bums hanging around the streets wrecking peoples heads...

Boggle

Ok, as far as being psychologically addictive you have to remember that drinking can also be psychologically addictive - it is just overlooked as the physiological is a far more potent addiction.

While I do respect that there is a risk of addiction (albeit very low) I would remind you that anything you enjoy can be addictive... even sport can be addictive as people get addicted to adrenaline and I know alot of people with an addiction to playing playstation or watching television!

The main point is though that if you want to compare it with alcohol you would find that alcohol is far more addictive (both psycho- and physiologically) than smoke, it has worse medical risks attached and aslo has more social problems attached to it (again the argument about a stoner never starting a fight). Unless there are other factors you are aware of that I have overlooked or I have interpreted something wrong then the only conclusion to make is that we should either ban alcohol or legalise smoke... maybe both to clear uo the A&E wards AND keep everyone happy!!!

Gurgle

ionapaul wrote:

You try this logic with GM foods (ask for some proof that they are harmful) and see how crazy people will become telling you that anything genetically modified is un-natural and is bad for you!

I don't think hash bars are an option under the present smoking laws.

You can find crazy people who'll object to anything.

btw oxygen causes excessive aging.
Really, stop breathing it, you'll never get any older.
Maybe it should be made illegal.

Blub2k4

Gurgle wrote:

I do know that I can smoke the stuff on a daily basis for a year then give up for weeks without any ill effects, except that I smoke more cigarettes when I've no pot.

But I do appreciate you educating me about your first hand knowledge on the subject. Please go on, give some more examples of desperate people selling their property and their bodies for their desperately needed joint.

Maybe you should recount(read: make up) a story about pensioners being mugged and robbed by a desperate stoner ?

I have a lot of first hand experience with a lot of substances, and with addiction in general being an addict with a checkered past.
Presently my addictive streak is taken care of with a regular dose of THC, it keeps me on the straight and narrow, if you talk to a lot of reformed hard drug users they say the same.
I started with alcohol, gambling then moved on to hard stuff.
The substance does not matter ( nor the activity ) if you have any idea about addiction you will know this, the same patterns occur no matter what the activity ( smoking is an activity ).
I didn't make up anything I dont need to, the person in question sold a wooden cabinet that was in the house (belonging to the landlord) from his flat in London and then used the profit to buy an 1/8th.
I smoke a lot and am around smokers a lot, so explain to me why people ( not all people) get narcy when they dont get thier smoke, some even become unbearable to be around, I'll tell you why cos they are addicted.
I am an addict that was forced to come to terms with my THC addiction despite years of denial ( cos I didn't want it to be true of my beloved THC, but it is).

I have not seen anyone go as far as to mug someone but stealing ....most definitely.

FX Meister

Gurgle wrote:

I do know that I can smoke the stuff on a daily basis for a year then give up for weeks without any ill effects, except that I smoke more cigarettes when I've no pot.

Many people get addicted to different types of SSRI drugs, the addiction is not physical, it is psychological, is this made up? Psychological addiction occurs with a huge number of legal drugs, including alcohol and cigarettes. Yet you seem to think it is a made up term, made up by a group you call 'they'. Who are 'they'? You need to structure your arguments a bit better, you're not really a very good candidate for legalisation or decriminalization in my opinion.

ferdi

people get addicted to anything....if you do anything regularly enough and then stop of course you will suffer withdrawal/

cannabis may be addictive but it should not be put in the same league as coke,gear, crack and acid - it should not be illegal.

Blub2k4

ferdi wrote:

people get addicted to anything....if you do anything regularly enough and then stop of course you will suffer withdrawal/

cannabis may be addictive but it should not be put in the same league as coke,gear, crack and acid - it should not be illegal.

I dont think that it should be illegal either, but I do think it is addictive and anyone attempting to promote it as a non-addictive drug is not doing the legalistation campaign any favours.

FX Meister

It's not put in the same league Ferdi, it is considered a less dangerous drug by the authorities and is treated as such

steveland?

FX Meister wrote:

For a start it is not harmless, and to say it's not addictive is just being naive. It is psychologically addictive and I've both read studies on this and witnessed it in people I know. And as for getting sent to jail for selling it, if you go to jail for selling it then you are obviously smuggling very large quantities or you are a serious repeat offender and deserve time in jail. They system gives you more chances to clean up your act than you deserve.

Just out of interest how much can you have on you at any one time before they class you as a dealer? There is a cut off point of only an ounce or two before they can arrest you for dealing

Spalk0

think its less than that SteveD!

think its only a half ounce or more!Seen a chap in court over an ounce!

Anyways, i do think its slightly addictive as is loads of activities and drugs!However i think its far less addictive than Smoking or alcohol!and i have done all three man a time!put it this way, was a heavy hash smoker for years(sometimes smoked an ounce a week) and i had no prblems giving it up!i have just given up smoking today and had serious problems giving up smoking before!Alcohol i have yet to kick and i do drink a lot of it!I do see your point a bit blub2k4, but i have never myself gotten even close to that desperate for the stuff nor have i ever met anyone like that either and in my time i knew or still know a lot of them!I think a lot of smokers are social ones!I was, i never got stoned if i was on my own but just with mates!