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N11/N25 - Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour [route options published]

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Comments



  • Furet wrote: »
    I can empathise. At an individual level, it is a horrifying prospect. You are unlucky. But again, being rational about it, that won't be enough to stop the road being built. In general, the amount of houses having to be knocked to make way for motorways is pretty small, all things considered; routes are chosen to avoid as many houses as possible.

    I know that, but they are asking for questionaires from those affected and we and the neighbours will do the best we can to come up with any real objections, that being water quality, pollution etc.. Nobody can stand in judgemnet against anyone who is facing the prospect of losing their home. People on all the other routes will be doing the same so we have to at least have a go.




  • Your argument is against the route for now, IF the route is chosen then you may well get the road diverted up to 100m away from your house in the mitigation phase even though it is now on the route.

    Get a civil engineer ( cheap nowadays) and let that engineer fill out the questionnaires for all of you rather than let yourselves do it. You must attack the route ....for now.




  • Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Your argument is against the route for now, IF the route is chosen then you may well get the road diverted up to 100m away from your house in the mitigation phase even though it is now on the route.

    Get a civil engineer ( cheap nowadays) and let that engineer fill out the questionnaires for all of you rather than let yourselves do it. You must attack the route ....for now.

    +1. Sound advice.




  • Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Your argument is against the route for now, IF the route is chosen then you may well get the road diverted up to 100m away from your house in the mitigation phase even though it is now on the route.

    Get a civil engineer ( cheap nowadays) and let that engineer fill out the questionnaires for all of you rather than let yourselves do it. You must attack the route ....for now.

    To be honest if they choose the route I would personally rather they took the house and get the hell out of there. When we chose the site, it was for the peace and quiet of the countryside where all we can hear are birds and the odd child laughing in the distance. We so dont want to be right beside a major route but i know it's out of our control. Still, I dont have to like it. Anyway time will tell...




  • gym_mom wrote: »
    Anyway time will tell...

    Those "children laughing in the distance" will be drawing the pension before this road is built...


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  • gym_mom wrote: »
    To be honest if they choose the route I would personally rather they took the house and get the hell out of there. When we chose the site, it was for the peace and quiet of the countryside where all we can hear are birds and the odd child laughing in the distance. We so dont want to be right beside a major route but i know it's out of our control. Still, I dont have to like it. Anyway time will tell...

    Well, see what the design proposal is. Everyone on my road was aghast at the prospect of the M8 being built outside our houses in the middle of nowhere. But the designers sunk the M8 down a good 15m into the ground in a deep cutting and in general it's not visible unless you walk over the overbridge that they built. These things are often not as intrusive as they first appear to be.




  • gym_mom wrote: »
    To be honest if they choose the route I would personally rather they took the house and get the hell out of there.
    You can go nowhere, here is why.

    1. Your house is worthless until another route is chosen. If not your route you don't want to leave
    2. EVEN if the route is chosen there is no pressure to complete statutory processes ...absent money....so they will spend years at that and nobody will buy save Wexford county council as part of a CPO....post mitigation if any.

    If your route is odd and unexpected I think it may have been chosen to help justify a more obvious one _because_ all the alternatives were excluded.

    Now get an engineer and set them investigating. A good civil engineer would cost €1000 a week cash nowadays and would do all the investigations/meetings with council and relevant questionairres filled out and delivered in 2 weeks flat which is only a few quid per house on the route.

    By all means add in archaeology , dicky birds, mosses and ferns, fish spawning and listed buildings from local knowledge.




  • Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Your argument is against the route for now, IF the route is chosen then you may well get the road diverted up to 100m away from your house in the mitigation phase even though it is now on the route.

    Get a civil engineer ( cheap nowadays) and let that engineer fill out the questionnaires for all of you rather than let yourselves do it. You must attack the route ....for now.

    No route has yet been chosen so any costs that a landowner/homeowner incurs will come directly out of their own pocket.

    The questionaire, I presume, is just a simple form which route do you prefer/will you use the road etc.?

    Have you met with the design team/local authority? If not then you should do so. They should be able to show you an indicative corridor for your house/land. They might not have any mapping that shows that there is a house there!

    At this stage they are building a picture of all the constraints on each ruote option; length, structures required, rivers, railways, houses, farms, ecological, monuments. Once they have that done they will carry out a comparison to chose the route with the less number of negative impacts upon the constraints. No matter what route is chosen there will be negative impacts upon those constraints.




  • Sponge Bob wrote: »
    You can go nowhere, here is why.

    1. Your house is worthless until another route is chosen. If not your route you don't want to leave
    2. EVEN if the route is chosen there is no pressure to complete statutory processes ...absent money....so they will spend years at that and nobody will buy save Wexford county council as part of a CPO....post mitigation if any.

    If your route is odd and unexpected I think it may have been chosen to help justify a more obvious one _because_ all the alternatives were excluded.

    Now get an engineer and set them investigating. A good civil engineer would cost €1000 a week cash nowadays and would do all the investigations/meetings with council and relevant questionairres filled out and delivered in 2 weeks flat which is only a few quid per house on the route.

    By all means add in archaeology , dicky birds, mosses and ferns, fish spawning and listed buildings from local knowledge.

    They are to be down to three routes by Sept and down to the chosen one by December apparantly. So at least we should know our fate soon enough. If route H is chosen then best case scenario is that it will go exactly as on the map and they'll have to buy us out and if not, then byebye to idilic country living as we know it ! (Unless some city slicker who is used to living near concrete jungles takes a shine to it and buys it !)




  • The study will take about a year before the result comes out

    1. Tuam Claremorris 2008

    http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/RoadProjects/N17TuamClaremorris/N17%20Tuam%20to%20Claremorris%20Brochure%20Map%20080520.pdf

    2. Tuam Claremorris results published a year later showing the scoring scheme. You need to score lower than the top one ..ideally lower than the top 3 Find a rare snail somewhere or mention the "Wexford Slug" somewhere :D

    http://www.galway.ie/en/media/Media,10688,en.pdf

    Conclusions of Study
    Following a detailed analysis of the routes through the NRA Project Appraisal
    Guidelines, which analyses each of the routes using the criteria of Economy, Safety,
    Environment, Accessibility and Social Inclusion and Integration, the Emerging Preferred
    Route was chosen.
    A summary of the detailed assessment using the above criteria is shown in the table
    below. Rankings (1 to 7) have been assigned to each of the Routes, with 1 being most
    favourable and 7 being least favourable.


    Route A B C C1 D D1 E
    Economy 6 5 1 3 2 4 7
    Safety 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    Environment 5 7 1 1 1 1 6
    Accessibility and
    Social Inclusion 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    Integration 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    Preferred Option 5 6 1 3 2 4 7


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  • gym_mom wrote: »
    They are to be down to three routes by Sept and down to the chosen one by December apparantly. So at least we should know our fate soon enough. If route H is chosen then best case scenario is that it will go exactly as on the map and they'll have to buy us out and if not, then byebye to idilic country living as we know it ! (Unless some city slicker who is used to living near concrete jungles takes a shine to it and buys it !)

    Even if Route H is chosen that does not mean it will go through your house. The preliminary design goes into far more detail and the route corridor can vary significantly from that which is currently shown. The corridors are probably 500m wide but the road itself would only be a max of 100m wide.

    One question- is your house gruoped together with other houses or is it a one off house in the middle of nowhere?




  • H is too far west and not on a 'traditional' communications corridor, should be easy enough to sort it as it crosses salmon spawning beds where the others cross saline or brackish water. It also pushes the development envelope for wexford town out too far west and is contrary to 'proper planning and development' in a rural area . It should be closer to the town and allowing a retrofit of the existing bypass to 2+2 lanes and not have 2 wexford bypasses in effect.

    I wouldn't worry overly about it, now get an engineer on the case.




  • It is of vital importance that you do not get any old underqualified eejit that draws house plans and knows nothing about major roads calling himself an 'engineer'. You need someone that understands the nuances of the roads planning & design process and knows how to best deal with the local authority on this one, preferably having successful experience representing clients on other major road schemes or unemployed road design engineers.


    However, avoiding problematic environmental areas and keeping the hell out of cSAC are of prime concern when selecting a route and takes precedence to interfering with human beings.

    They will nearly always go with the cheapest and most likely shortest route provided there are no ecological show stopers on it. Route H looks way too long for it to be economical or viable. However, the river crossing would be a major factor in choosing the route and it looks narrower for H than any other route.

    They probably have a pretty good idea what route they are going with already but they must examine all alternatives and go through the process. If there was a very strong local reaction against a particular route that might lead to mitigation/tweaking of alignment or if someone came up with a reason that could bring down the route at Oral Hearing then it would certainly be amended




  • A SAC/NHA expains the number of routes. The slaney valley is a sac and nha I think, sac description

    http://www.npws.ie/en/media/Media,4036,en.pdf

    "Below Enniscorthy there are several areas of woodland with a mixed canopy of Oak, Beech, Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus), Ash and generally a good diverse ground flora. Near the mouth of the river at Ferrycarrig is a steep south facing slope covered with Oak woodland. Holly and Hazel are the main species in the shrub layer and a species-rich ground flora typical of this type of Oak woodland has abundant ferns - Dryopteris filix-mas, Polystichum setiferum, Phyllitis scolopendrium - and mosses - Thuidium tamariscinum, Mnium hornum, Eurynchium praelongum."...

    "At the southern end of the site, the Red Data Book species Yellow Archangel (Lamiastrum galeobdolon) occurs. Three more Red Data Book species have also been recorded from the site: Basil Thyme (Acinos arvensis), Blue Fleabane (Erigeron acer) and Small Cudweed (Filago minima). A nationally rare species Summer Snowflake (Leucojum aestivum) is also found within the site."

    If you have any of those in your garden or in the field next door you are safe although you may find an army of crusties banging drums and trampling them if you tell anybody other than the council about it . I will get you some bog cotton if you want :D




  • Sponge Bob wrote: »
    . I will get you some bog cotton if you want :D

    Careful now you could be guilty of the destruction of Galway's ecological wonderland




  • 123easy wrote: »
    Careful now you could be guilty of the destruction of Galway's ecological wonderland

    It is going to seed right now and not a NPWS scientist in sight to save the poor feckers blowing out on the road beside my house , I would only ever send the seeds to a good home you know :D




  • Even if Route H is chosen that does not mean it will go through your house. The preliminary design goes into far more detail and the route corridor can vary significantly from that which is currently shown. The corridors are probably 500m wide but the road itself would only be a max of 100m wide.

    One question- is your house gruoped together with other houses or is it a one off house in the middle of nowhere?

    It's a one off house but not necessarily in the middle of nowhere, there are other one off houses around close by, some of which are also under threat by route H.

    Thanks for all the advice. We'll have to wait and see anyway and sure it's not the end of the world if we have to move but hopefully it won;t come to that. I hope you're right about it being the less preferred option. A collegue of mine here has a farm smack bang in the middle of where four of the other routes run through so much worse for the likes of her.




  • gym_mom wrote: »
    It's a one off house but not necessarily in the middle of nowhere, there are other one off houses around close by, some of which are also under threat by route H.

    Thanks for all the advice. We'll have to wait and see anyway and sure it's not the end of the world if we have to move but hopefully it won;t come to that. I hope you're right about it being the less preferred option. A collegue of mine here has a farm smack bang in the middle of where four of the other routes run through so much worse for the likes of her.

    Well, one of the problems associated with one-off houses is that they cover the countryside in obstacles to infrastructure. I remember a planners group in the mid-1990s predicting that tens of thousands of one-offs would require sewage schemes, new roads (they clutter the existing system), electricity and so forth but that ironically the inhabitants would, Nimby style, oppose all if these things.

    'Cos they want clean running water, employment, electricity, toilets, cars, public transport - and still enjoy the tranquility of the countryside. Life doesn't work like that!

    So while I'd have sympathy I'd certainly not be giving encouragement or support. :cool:




  • Wild Bill wrote: »
    'Cos they want clean running water, employment, electricity, toilets, cars, public transport - and still enjoy the tranquility of the countryside. Life doesn't work like that!

    So while I'd have sympathy I'd certainly not be giving encouragement or support. :cool:

    Well it does work like that Bill but you gotta fight for it if you move to the country :D Wait till the Water Framework Directive becomes law on the 1st of July and every septic tank that drains into the Slaney has to be rebuilt to a Water Treatment plant for €10k a pop before 2015, look at page 60 of 117 of the RBMP




  • I see from the Wexford People that various local committees came together for a meeting regarding the Oylegate-Rosslare Harbour road..
    ..the committees are not opposed to progress, but that there are very real concerns about the effect the new motorway would have on communities, on the local economy, on the environment and in a number of other respects.

    Aidan Roche, secretary of the Barntown group, said that one important point discussed was the possible economic effects for Wexford town itself if it is bypassed.

    He also said that the new need for a motorway, based on traffic studies and the condition of the current road, was another important topic, as was the need for the huge investment the motorway project will require at a time when the country is broke and tax payers are set to be hit hard again in the next Budget. However, he said the groups are realistic in the sense that they feel a road will be built. ..

    They sent a letter off to the NRA
    Letter from the Joint Committees of Wexford to the National Roads Liaison Office.

    We the joint committees, representing all Wexford groups affected by the N11/N25 Bypass proposed route, request clarification in respect of the following points:

    Is it a motorway or what grade of dual carriageway that is proposed?

    Will there be a toll anywhere on the proposed route?

    What percentage of the total cost of the road project will ultimately come from European taxpayers and what percentage from Irish taxpayers?

    Does a new road on a Greenfield site attract more EU funding than upgrading an existing road?

    What will be the estimated total cost of the project?
    What money has been spent on the project so far?

    Has a study of the impact on the commerce and tourism of Wexford, being bypassed by the road, been compiled?

    What study into the impact on local families and communities has been compiled?

    How important is the environmental and archaeological heritage of Wexford to route planning?

    Has there been consideration to the impact on the local agricultural economy?

    What are the three most important factors in route selection? What is their order of priority?

    We would be grateful for a reply in kind, in the newspaper, in order to reach all people affected by the routes.


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  • coming up from Rosslare earlier this week I noticed numerous signs along the N11 saying "Crossabeg says NO MOTORWAY!" so it appears the downtrodden masses are mobilising (or at least one guy with access to a pile of pallets and some paint).
    Aidan Roche, secretary of the Barntown group, said that one important point discussed was the possible economic effects for Wexford town itself if it is bypassed.

    eh? it's already bypassed...




  • loyatemu wrote:
    eh? it's already bypassed...

    I was about to write the same thing! :) You'd have to try quite hard (and be insane) to drive into Wexford town while intending to just pass by.




  • jd wrote: »
    Aidan Roche, secretary of the Barntown group, said that one important point discussed was the possible economic effects for Wexford town itself if it is bypassed.

    This argument is rolled out every time a new motorway or bypass is proposed. Initially it made sense to me, less traffic in a town means less passing trade and less income for shops/restaurants/cafes/petrol stations etc. in the town. However, a lot of people also claim that less traffic in a town means local people are more likely to travel into the town because they dont have to sit in a queue of cars which is very frustrating if your only travelling a few miles to go to the post office/pick up a pint of milk, there are more parking spaces and less traffic makes the town a more pleasant place in general. These people would also argue that a lot of the traffic passing through a town which is not bypassed are only doing so in order to get to their final destination and have no intention of stopping in that town and after the bypass is built the option of going into the town is still there if they want to do so.

    Anyway, the Joint Committees of Wexford wrote a letter to the National Roads Liaison Office asking "Has a study of the impact on the commerce and tourism of Wexford, being bypassed by the road, been compiled?". Why dont we do this here, on Boards? Not a study of the impact on the commerce and tourism of Wexford but ask users of the site to post their experience of their town being bypassed. We can get first hand, primary evidence, straight from the horses mouth, from shopkeeper, restaurateurs, etc. and people in general on how their business and their town has been effected by a bypass or motorway. I suspect the economic benefits of a bypass far outweigh the negative effects of a bypass and this would tell us for sure. I'm sure this would be more accurate than any NRA or whoever report into it because this would involve real people giving their real opinions, you write your own post so it wont be open to interpretation.

    I don't know how interested people are in this but I think it would be an interesting little case study to carry out here on Boards. Not sure if this deserves its own thread or if it even belongs in infrastructure at all, I'll leave that up to some of the mods to do what they see fit.




  • Do these people not have the first idea about how road planning is done?
    Has a study of the impact on the commerce and tourism of Wexford, being bypassed by the road, been compiled?

    Do they not know that Wexford is already bypassed? Its not the most elegant of bypasses all right but I would imagine most traffic that doesn't want to go to Wexford is already going to ignore the town. Therefore one has to assume that the impact on commerce and tourism will be neglibile.
    In fact given a good HDQC route between Rosslare and Dublin there could be an increase of passenger traffic through the port with the potential for an knock-on increase in revenue.

    I would imagine somewhere like Cashel would be a good case study to assess the impact of a bypass of a tourist town. There were major concerns raised when the original bypass on the N8 was built because it meant traffic would never get a vew of the Rock of Cashel as the passed the town. In fact at one stage many of the locals wanted the bypass to go to the west side of the town so that the Rock would be clearly viewable from the bypass (ironic considering the Tara/M3 outcry where they wanted the road as far away as possible). That bypass was then upgraded to motorway classification. It would be interesting to see if tourism in Cashel has been affected by it being bypassed.
    How important is the environmental and archaeological heritage of Wexford to route planning?

    Before any route can be selected there will have to be environmental and archaeological impact studies completed. Its not like the route is going to plough straight through historic sites and knock down valuable buildings in the middle of Wexford town. This is such a red herring.
    What study into the impact on local families and communities has been compiled?

    One would have though that local families and communities will see an increase in their quality of life, especially those along the old N11 who will see a huge reduction in the amount of through traffic and heavy good vehicles in their towns and villages.
    Has there been consideration to the impact on the local agricultural economy?

    If we can build a motorway through the heartland of the Golden Vale, one of Ireland's prime agricultural areas (M8), then I think a road can be built through Wexford without huge impact on the agricultural economy.

    One would think we were suggesting tarmacing the entire county they way they are talking here. I'm not saying they shouldn't take an interest and find out about it. But there are proper planning procedures, public displays and consultations, impact studies and the rest to be done before any road is ever built.

    Honestly, I get frustrated when I read about things like this.




  • Jayuu wrote: »
    Do these people not have the first idea about how road planning is done?

    No, they probably have absolutely no idea whatsoever. But in fairness, they are just ordinary people and have no interest in roads, or infrastructure development or the planning system. At least they are going to the source and asking the questions they dont have the answers to. It seems to me they have taken a very reasonable approach to this, unlike many others in the past, I'm thinking mainly of the people who were immediately up in arms over the M3 when it passes further from the Hill of Tara then the original N3. I wouldn't judge these people just yet, they have the right to be concerned about a major road passing through their area.
    Jayuu wrote: »
    Honestly, I get frustrated when I read about things like this.

    I understand but lets see how this one plays out. Wait until they get the reponce to their letter and if they are still against it even if the NRA can justify the road and satisfy all the issues raised (and there is no guarantee they can) then we can start hunting them down and using them for capping materials.




  • Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    No, they probably have absolutely no idea whatsoever. But in fairness, they are just ordinary people and have no interest in roads, or infrastructure development or the planning system. At least they are going to the source and asking the questions they dont have the answers to. It seems to me they have taken a very reasonable approach to this, unlike many others in the past, I'm thinking mainly of the people who were immediately up in arms over the M3 when it passes further from the Hill of Tara then the original N3. I wouldn't judge these people just yet, they have the right to be concerned about a major road passing through their area.



    I understand but lets see how this one plays out. Wait until they get the reponce to their letter and if they are still against it even if the NRA can justify the road and satisfy all the issues raised (and there is no guarantee they can) then we can start hunting them down and using them for capping materials.

    You're probably right. But it seems incredible that any organised group would not have some idea of the process that's involved. There's been enough controversy and discussion about road building over the last ten years to spead even a basic appreciation of this knowledge around.




  • You cant do anything without people getting upset.

    There were 3 articles in the Wexford people last week.

    1. Motorway to Rosslare
    2. New Courthouse building to be built in Wexford town.
    3. Bypass of Clonroche(village near Enniscorthy).

    All 3 had a huge negative tone, with people complaining with a 'not in my back yard' attitude.

    You would think people would welcome investment and the development of their local area.




  • From the Echo
    http://www.wexfordecho.ie/news/story/?trs=mhgbidaucw&cat=news
    A MEETING attended by all of the committees representing the people affected by the proposed new motorway between Oylegate and Rosslare, was held in Glynn on Monday.

    During the course of the meeting, it quickly became apparent that a lot of conflicting information concerning the proposed motorway is circulating so, in the interest of clarity, a number of questions have now been forwarded to the NRA Liaison Office.

    ...

    The full list of questions, and Mr. Curtin’s answers, will be published in the Echo next week.




  • marathont wrote: »
    All 3 had a huge negative tone, with people complaining with a 'not in my back yard' attitude.

    The 'not in my back yard' attitude is one thing, but the 'not in my back yard despite the fact that this will benefit me and the surrounding area for many years to come' attitude is absolutely ludicrous.


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  • I'll give my tuppence worth on towns being bypassed.
    Arklow: traffic used to back up from the junction at the bottom of the town north out the old N11 to Arklow Rugby Club

    How many of those people stopped n Arklow to buy stuff? hardly any. How many people from the surrounds of Arklow went elsewhere to shop such as Gorey, lots.
    After it was bypassed, businesses in the town thrived, as people could get along the street.


    Loughrea: same storey, traffic backed out the N6 East to the merge with the n65 was the worst I saw one race weekend.

    since the original bypass, loads of new shops opened and the town is fairly busy as everyone there, now wants to be there, instead of people wanting to be elsewhere being stuck there.


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