N11/N25 - Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour [route options published]

Irish and Proud

mac.the.hat wrote: »

With all due respect, I don't think you're being fair.

I signed up because I thought I was getting involved in a discussion. I didn't expect to get skinned alive on my first post.

I think the mere fact that I've come back again and again to see what is being said proves that I would like to discuss the issues involved and that I quite obviously do respect your opinions.

I wouldn't mind having another shot if you don't mind but can you guys please take it a bit easier on me for a while anyways. I'm trying to find my feet. I'm new to boards.ie and forums, I'm not a 'roads professional' and I'm seriously outnumbered by you guys who obviously are quite familiar with each other but I would like to find out what you think, learn a little and maybe make a few online acquaintances in the process.

m@c

OK, I for one will give you a bit of space to find your feet. It's just that you came across as someone with an agenda and that you were part of the campaign to stop any road improvement on the N25 South of Wexford Town. I was also a bit upset with your attack on the NRA - one of the few state institutions that is actually functioning unlike the HSE.

I'm now beginning to aquire a different impression of you. If you just want to join us and discuss, of course you should be welcome to do so. It is quite obvious that a motorway is not required and that I assumed that the NRA was going for a 2+2 road. I also think that as much of the existing road as is possible should be re-used (as per one of the Route Options), but that all our major National Primaries including the N11 and N25 should be at least 2+2.

We now more than ever really need to pull together as a nation - in fact we need a fresh start with a new constitution, but that's another matter. We all have to sacrifice something to save Ireland - be it higher taxes, less pay or allowing the common good to prevail over individual interests - something that I'd say most people were doing to the contrary IMO. However, the very high earners must make hugh sacrifices - I think all tax breaks (which seem to favour high earners) should go and more money should be put into infrastructure etc. The HSE administration must also go IMO.

Feel free to discuss all these points, but do try to stay within the subject of the thread's title.

Good Luck Mate! :cool:

Sponge Bob

Actually this thread already has more for Nimbys than any other thread around here so read it fully up to last July or so and get a handle on the advice we gave the "Route H" Nimby around then.

Irish and Proud

gym_mom wrote: »

Well route H goes straight through my garden so if anyone has any knowledge of any reasons why that's not a good route please post here. We need all the amunition we can get. God, you build in the country to get away from all the noise, fumes, traffic and then wham someone throws a granade like this at you. To say we're shocked is an understatement.:eek:

Ok then, let's discount Route H because of your lovely garden! :rolleyes:

Yes, you build in the country because you have a god given right to do so...

...after all, it is far more important than the national interest, sustainable planning etc etc... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

thedarkroom

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is 50,000m x 50m wide or 2,500,000 square meters. This is 250 hectares which is 617 Acres not 1,000 acres. By no stretch of my notably febrile imagination could I possibly get the land take for this project to 1,000 acres of agricultural land.

In fairness, when you add intersections, fly-overs, layby's and the possibility of a service station area, then the area will creep up somewhat but not to 1,000 acres. I'm not saying this as ammunition to further the argument against the by-pass, it's just a fact.

People should take in to consideration here that when something like this happens it can be quite intrusive and even devastating to some communities. It creates divisions, both physically and socially, and people can hardly be blamed for wanting to protect their 'space'. Its hard for them to step back and take a non-biased attitude to what they see as an incumbrance upon them for the benefit of others. I think a bit of sympathy for their plight would be helpful.

I saw what happened with the Gorey by-pass. I saw how people were manipulated and how the divisiveness was taken advantage of by all sides of the argument. I see now how Gorey has improved because of the bypass. Even though the by-pass route is not too far from where I live, I did not get involved in protests or arguments against the plans as Gorey was being strangled by traffic without the by-pass.

I think the best thing that the communities could do would be to work together and look for concessions from the NRA and Wexford Co Co to ensure any perceived negative effects can be reduced and the communities given some sort of claw-back as a 'reward' for being co-operative. Don't let differences between communities create divisions which might never heal because at the end of the day, the NRA will do what it has to do and move on leaving all the divisions in their wake.

It's going to happen anyway and trying to block just won't work.

Irish and Proud

thedarkroom wrote: »

In fairness, when you add intersections, fly-overs, layby's and the possibility of a service station area, then the area will creep up somewhat but not to 1,000 acres. I'm not saying this as ammunition to further the argument against the by-pass, it's just a fact.

People should take in to consideration here that when something like this happens it can be quite intrusive and even devastating to some communities. It creates divisions, both physically and socially, and people can hardly be blamed for wanting to protect their 'space'. Its hard for them to step back and take a non-biased attitude to what they see as an incumbrance upon them for the benefit of others. I think a bit of sympathy for their plight would be helpful.

I saw what happened with the Gorey by-pass. I saw how people were manipulated and how the divisiveness was taken advantage of by all sides of the argument. I see now how Gorey has improved because of the bypass. Even though the by-pass route is not too far from where I live, I did not get involved in protests or arguments against the plans as Gorey was being strangled by traffic without the by-pass.

I think the best thing that the communities could do would be to work together and look for concessions from the NRA and Wexford Co Co to ensure any perceived negative effects can be reduced and the communities given some sort of claw-back as a 'reward' for being co-operative. Don't let differences between communities create divisions which might never heal because at the end of the day, the NRA will do what it has to do and move on leaving all the divisions in their wake.

It's going to happen anyway and trying to block just won't work.

Yeah, that's reasonable!

I do think that roads should be planned with the people being affected taken into consideration, and also that these said people should also try and find a way forward - after all, we all benefit from long distance roads in one way or another.

My post above mind you was in response to be blatant me, me, me attitude which seemed to convey:

"I don't care where you put it, but I don't want it here!"

This to me is just pure selfishness - on one hand, that particular party seems to be happy to avail of the right to build houses where ever is desired (a practice which has proved quite unsustainable), but yet in the eyes of such people, the NRA does not have quite the same privileges. This is even though one off houses have had a far greater impact on the countryside than the motorways and also, that the motorways benefit the public as opposed to one off private dwellings. That said, it does not give the NRA the right to disregard the concerns of locals either.

However as you said, there needs to be a balance so that the road has minimal effect on the locality, but is yet perfectly adequate for the needs of the motoring public.

Regards!

thedarkroom

I always have difficulty with the expression 'NIMBYism' when referring to objectors to proposals for development, whether it be roadways or housing estates as it has a derogatory implication of a selfish self-centred individual or group. The term is regularly used by developers when they want to demonise any objectors to their planning fiascos. It's a very devisive term, designed to antagonise anyone who's views might differ.
While the reference is true in its description, it is insensitive in it's sentiment. In situations such as CPO's for roadways, we are dealing with people's attachment to their homes and living environment. It's not easy to watch your house and home, where you might have grown up, with all it's memories and emotions, being referred to as an obstacle to someone else's progress.
It's like your past is being buldozed away and any physical reference is gone. While it has never happened to me, I'm sure that it can be emotionally devasting.
Could any of us truly say that if someone told us that our home was to be levelled to make a roadway for something as impersonally detached as a bed of tarmac for trucks and cars to speed over, that we would take it without a whimper or some sort of resistance.
I'm not saying that the bypasses shouldn't happen, I've made my position on that clear in an earlier post, but I think that the NRA should take a more proactive approach on an individual level to ensure that the trauma of it is reduced for those effected.

Sponge Bob

The problem right now is that Noel Dempsey has deliberately distributed the planning and consultancy pork as widely as possible. The NRA has connived to 'plan' roads that have no chance of being built and the NRA has deliberately stirred up Hornets nests of nimbys in all sorts of strange places.

We all know that most of these roads will not be built in our LIFETIMES but the planning and route selection is ongoing.....and the serial Nimby prodding that comes with it.

In Galway Alone there are consultants in place today doing route selection and planning on M17/M18 Tuam- Gort, The Galway Bypass, The Claregalway Bypass, The N59 Bog Road scheme, The R336 Galway Screeb road ( over 30km long) and the N59 Moycullen Bypass where €500k of NRA money was recently spend on a road that was already selected and designed 10 years ago.

If any 3 of these are actually completed over the next 30 years I will be astonished. Same with the N11

Wild Bill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If any 3 of these are actually completed over the next 30 years I will be astonished. Same with the N11

I sincerely hope you aren't talking about the bit between Rathnew and Arklow! :eek:

ps - I do think you are too pessimistic, just a tad. :cool:

marmurr1916

mac.the.hat wrote: »

With all due respect, I don't think you're being fair.

I signed up because I thought I was getting involved in a discussion. I didn't expect to get skinned alive on my first post.

We're having a discussion. The tone may not suit you, but it's still a discussion. Think of it as a debate. You make certain claims, other people respond to those claims (either in agreement or rebuttal), then you respond back, if you choose.

You've made some assertions of fact about the existing route and the proposed new route.

Some of these assertions have been rebutted by posters who have provided factual information which disproves them.

I don't think that's anything to get overly upset about.

Carry on posting and discussing - you could learn some facts about roads and this route in particular.

Don't get upset by (your perception of) the tone of some answers - it's just words on a screen and it can be very hard to judge whether someone intends to be aggressive or is merely stating facts.

Sorry for the 'mammy' comment - intended to be a joke!

Maybe you could post each one of your assertions from your first post one at a time and provide some evidence for the claims you've made.

For example, you've claimed that the route from Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour has been certified as a safe route.

Do you have any information that you can post which backs up this claim?

spacetweek

thedarkroom wrote: »

I'm not saying that the bypasses shouldn't happen, I've made my position on that clear in an earlier post, but I think that the NRA should take a more proactive approach on an individual level to ensure that the trauma of it is reduced for those effected.

Sorry Darkroom but I think you're trying really hard here not to say "I want this road anywhere but near me" but you just end up saying it anyway. There is no way this road can be built in such a way that it is near nobody. It has to be near some people! The Irish have an undue attachment to land and buildings that borders on the obstructionist at times. At the end of the day, the house a person lives in could be any house. Surely so long as compensation is adequate, it should be sweet?

Sponge Bob

Why are you dragging this thread up Spacetweek, this is our nimby whack-a-mole thread and TheDarkRoom is not one of the nimbys.

Why one of our esteemed mods and no doubt his neighbours got the M8 motorway changed a tad ( IIRC) and it virtually next door to him and certainly no more than a field or two away. Even I have to deal with a road project in the pipeline a field away from my mother. I have spoken to the engineer and will make a strong case if and when. Meanwhile I have put in a submission with a few serious points in it as a holding measure and will quietly await route selection. My mother is fairly chilled at the prospect ...not least because she reckons she will never see it.

Many routes can easily be ameliorated and alleviated after selection....but not at the local community centre with the local windbags roaring down the house.

thedarkroom

spacetweek wrote: »

Sorry Darkroom but I think you're trying really hard here not to say "I want this road anywhere but near me" but you just end up saying it anyway. There is no way this road can be built in such a way that it is near nobody. It has to be near some people! The Irish have an undue attachment to land and buildings that borders on the obstructionist at times. At the end of the day, the house a person lives in could be any house. Surely so long as compensation is adequate, it should be sweet?

Wrong! This road is nowhere near me and will have no effect on my home or community. I live outside Gorey . . north of the county, the Oilgate to Rosslare proposal is about forty miles south of me.
Having said that, I think it would be fair to say that nobody would be happy to see a motorway on their doorstep and some might actively resist it. Others will just accept the inevitable but will resent the decision of the NRA. When the Gorey bypass was built I would have preferred to see it somewhere else, further away from my house, but I didn't get involved in any campaign to stop it. I just accepted the result. If my house was to be taken under a CPO then I can't say how I would have reacted. I don't think that anyone could give a full and honest answer unless it happens to them. My house is relatively new so I might have been OK about it but if it was an inherited family home where one of my parent s grew up, their parents, myself, my own children, etc. etc. then I would not be so sure that I would be so complacent.
Like I said previously, a home is not just bricks and mortar, it's a collection of memories and an attachment to place and this is far stronger than any offer the NRA might make by way of compensation (and generally that is inadequate)

Amtmann

thedarkroom wrote: »

I think it would be fair to say that nobody would be happy to see a motorway on their doorstep and some might actively resist it.

I absolutely love having the M8 on my doorstep. Then again, I am a road enthusiast and am definitely an exception rather than the rule.

thedarkroom

Furet wrote: »

I absolutely love having the M8 on my doorstep. Then again, I am a road enthusiast and am definitely an exception rather than the rule.

Maybe you're taking the p@%s or maybe you're genuine, I have always been a bit slow to spot irony and sarcasm, I don't know. But, assuming you are genuine, how does your enthusiasm actually manifest itself? Do you go out collecting truck variety listings, car spotting, number plates, vintage vehicles . . . or what? Historical oddities? Or is it a case of being interested in how these things progress (or not)? Just curious.
Maybe there is a new thread that could sprout from this one.

Amtmann

thedarkroom wrote: »

Maybe you're taking the p@%s or maybe you're genuine, I have always been a bit slow to spot irony and sarcasm, I don't know. But, assuming you are genuine, how does your enthusiasm actually manifest itself? Do you go out collecting truck variety listings, car spotting, number plates, vintage vehicles . . . or what? Historical oddities? Or is it a case of being interested in how these things progress (or not)? Just curious.
Maybe there is a new thread that could sprout from this one.

It manifests itself through photography (of roads, signage, and road construction); through an interest in route numbering, junction design, signage and route selection; through driving a road to see the road, rather than to arrive at any particular destination; and lastly, through my interest in this forum, which, among other things, was set up for other road enthusiasts.

RE the M8, I just like knowing it's there. I like the connectivity and the economic artery provided 250m from the front of where I live.

thedarkroom

Furet wrote: »

It manifests itself through photography (of roads, signage, and road construction); through an interest in route numbering, junction design, signage and route selection; through driving a road to see the road, rather than to arrive at any particular destination; and lastly, through my interest in this forum, which, among other things, was set up for other road enthusiasts.

RE the M8, I just like knowing it's there. I like the connectivity and the economic artery provided 250m from the front of where I live.

I can see where you're coming from. Me, it's cameras and books. Every time I'm in Dublin I plod for camera shop to bookshop to camera shop. Mightn't buy anything but I'll do it for hours on end.
250m? Would there be occasions, then, when you would wish for the traffic noise to stop or does this add to the experience? I have to admit, I would find that very difficult. But then, I am a certified crotchety old fart!

thedarkroom

Sorry for going off thread folks. Won't do it again, but I had to ask!

Amtmann

thedarkroom wrote: »

Would there be occasions, then, when you would wish for the traffic noise to stop or does this add to the experience? I have to admit, I would find that very difficult. But then, I am a certified crotchety old fart!

The noise is constant actually, but not obnoxiously so. It's a background phenomenon. I lived in a city for the past seven years and only recently moved back to the countryside (temporarily, I hope!), so I don't mind the noise at all. If there were M50 traffic volumes on it, then I'd probably move!

Now, back to Oilgate....

Willam Barker

Can't believe objectors are being given any credibility, do they realise the infrastructural deficit that county Wexford suffers from? Do they realsie the number of people reliant on daily or almost daily commutes to Dublin for work or business or indeed attendance at hospitals in the capital.

I see the latest disingenuous tactic being adopted is to focus on the cost and how its a waste of money, nonsense, the M/N11 is one of the busiest roads I travel, we've motorways to Waterford and other destinations which are far less heavily traveled and yet we've yokels looking to keep Wexford in the dark ages.

This is in reality a NIMBYism in action, we are crying out for investment, for improved access to markets, to see Rosslare grow, to drive job creation, those in favour have to make sure their voices are heard and not just the vested interested and the naysayers.

Wild Bill

Willam Barker wrote: »

This is in reality a NIMBYism in action, we are crying out for investment, for improved access to markets, to see Rosslare grow, to drive job creation, those in favour have to make sure their voices are heard and not just the vested interested and the naysayers.

Agree. There has been some dissing of Rosslare by the Western Lobby in this forum, which I see as part of our national beggar-my-neighbour attitude.

As trade and travel with/to Europe is going to be a key part of any Irish disaster recovery plan Rosslare is such an obvious choice for development you'd have to question the motives of the knockers.

Frankly, trying to divert money from the N11/Wexford to wetter and less sunny parts of the country is a luxury we cannot afford right now. :cool:

Sponge Bob

Wild Bill wrote: »

Agree. There has been some dissing of Rosslare by the Western Lobby in this forum, which I see as part of our national beggar-my-neighbour attitude.

Where exactly ??

Wild Bill

Back in the earlier part of this very thread - stuff about Rosslare being a dying port etc - or so I thought, from memory. Surely you are not asking me to go look for it? :eek:

Willam Barker

Wexford has suffered a funding deficit for years, our Western cousins have organised themselves and make a lot of noise - rightly so - while we in Wexford failed to shout stop. We've massive levels of unemployment which dipped due to the construction boom but its back with vengeance now, we are a disadvantaged county but as we get lumped in as being on the 'rich east coast' we get little attention.

With so many natural advantages you would have to ask questions, close to Dublin, close to our biggest trading partner, superb land and a significant industrial heritage - esp in the Argi sectors. We have been in relative decline to much of the country for the last 50 years or so, why? I think its down to political neglect and transfers to other regions to our cost, we've been disadvantaged and its time to face up to this and say enough is enough. When the IDA are looking to locate Inward investment, I don't even think Wexford is in their radar as politically the emphasis is elsewhere, we've not getting a fair shot at all.

Sponge Bob

Wild Bill wrote: »

Back in the earlier part of this very thread - stuff about Rosslare being a dying port etc - or so I thought, from memory. Surely you are not asking me to go look for it? :eek:

In terms of overall port traffic it was pointed out that Rosslare traffic has dropped a lot more than Cork traffic in recent year ( Dublin is steady or rising , cannot remember) and that Cork was and is a much bigger port than Rosslare overall.

These are simple facts and facts about traffic in Rosslare do not have a western slant as such emm ........emmm maybe because they are facts.

Wild Bill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

These are simple facts and facts about traffic in Rosslare do not have a western slant as such emm ........emmm maybe because they are facts.

I agree with the poster just above you. Who ever thinks of Wexford as a place in need of special treatment for development? Yet it is one of the poorest counties in Ireland; poorer than many of the "BMW" counties.

It needs the N11 more than Cork needs the M20 - if we think infrastructure spending as some sort of regional re-balancing pork-barrel affair.

Which a lot of folk here seem to. :cool:

Sponge Bob

Wild Bill wrote: »

I agree with the poster just above you. Who ever thinks of Wexford as a place in need of special treatment for development? Yet it is one of the poorest counties in Ireland; poorer than many of the "BMW" counties.

Tis poorer, it also has none of the industries we need to pull the country out of deprecession. It is mainly a holiday home getaway for parts of Leinster.

Some western counties have single factories exporting in the order of near €1bn of material out of Ireland every year.

Not via Rosslare in the main.

thedarkroom

Sponge Bob wrote: »

. . . It is mainly a holiday home getaway for parts of Leinster.

This is very true and while it is an advantage for many people it can also be quite a disadvantage for unrelated industries. One must keep in mind that for every holiday house that exists, that is a dwelling with no vote so if you have a large number of holiday home estates then there are very few votes for politicians and therefore of little interest when it comes to requests for local funding.
In the village where I live there would be a permanent all year occupancy level of approximately 25% and the place mushrooms for the three months of the summer with rentals and vacationers. What TD or canvasser can genuinely promise funding and help to such a community when a nearby town of 5,000+ is also putting on pressure for infrastructure.
I suppose the point I'm making here is that infrastructure such as the M11 improvements will help provide improved access for industries such as manufacturing which can have a better overall sustained benefit to communities rather than tourism which can be a sporadic and unreliable industry which quite often usually provides employment in the low paying service areas.

jd

This is kicked to touch for a while!!

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=257

HouseMartins

Has any1 heard anything more about Oilgate to Rosslare? I had a letter from Don Curtin back in October telling me there was a delay in Route Selection due to the amount of submissions made in relation to the road...... but haven't heard a thing since...... Is this road still part of the big picture for Ireland or has it been put on the back burners for now????

L1011

HouseMartins wrote: »

Has any1 heard anything more about Oilgate to Rosslare? I had a letter from Don Curtin back in October telling me there was a delay in Route Selection due to the amount of submissions made in relation to the road...... but haven't heard a thing since...... Is this road still part of the big picture for Ireland or has it been put on the back burners for now????

Its neither on the definite or the maybe list for the next four years. Expect route selection and possibly the planning/CPO to be done but definitely no construction.