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Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,757 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

    Do they have any obligation to be?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Do they have any obligation to be?

    Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we
    Edit: I'm referring to the suggestion that Leinster sue...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭un5byh7sqpd2x0


    Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we?

    Who's throwing stones? Randomers on the internet don't count


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Kevski


    Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we?

    I don’t understand your point. There is no salary cap imposed on the league that Leinster plays in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

    I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,721 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

    I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

    How are you that drunk this early Neil?


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Amalia Dry Gauche


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

    This is an infinitely more bizarre take on things than suggesting thinking before going legal.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    PRL have not removed Sarries titles or finishing positions. Therefore they remain legitimately qualified for Europe where there is no salary cap.

    Leinster would be laughed out of it if they were stupid and petty enough to take any action. Which they aren’t so this is irrelevant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    This is an infinitely more bizarre take on things than suggesting thinking before going legal.

    Precisely what I proposed Leinster do. Lawyers "should be doing a deep dive" means a thorough exploration of all relevant details.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Do they have any obligation to be?

    The provinces and the IRFU might not have a salary cap but they do operate to budgets and cannot run at a loss unlike Saracens who have been cheating the agreed salary cap, running at a loss and writing off debt.
    awec wrote: »
    I think they need to re-think this whole salary cap thing, maybe move closer to the football model of Financial Fair Play where it's set at a european level rather than arbitrarily among each league.

    As we have noticed it is quite complex to enforce. One method that would force clubs to recruit from within would be a limit on new signings per season. But that may be contravening employment law.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,720 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

    I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

    What in the ****?


    Anyways, Leinster will rightfully not pursue this. Nobody wants a trophy for a game they lost fairly on the pitch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    There's a line in a BBC report today that says that if they are relegated this year and win the Heineken, they won't be able to defend it, as all Heineken cup teams must be members of PRo14, Top 14 or Premiership.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    PRL have not removed Sarries titles or finishing positions. Therefore they remain legitimately qualified for Europe where there is no salary cap.

    Leinster would be laughed out of it if they were stupid and petty enough to take any action. Which they aren’t so this is irrelevant.

    But the relegation would set precedent that I'm sure would interest the likes of Exeter, wrt retrospectively applying it to seasons where they were in a similar state of financial doping. The only reason no titles have been stripped is because the ruling would apply to this year where they won't finish top. If things start getting applied retrospectively (Lance Armstrong style) this could get very interesting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Winters wrote: »
    The provinces and the IRFU might not have a salary cap but they do operate to budgets and cannot run at a loss unlike Saracens who have been cheating the agreed salary cap, running at a loss and writing off debt.



    As we have noticed it is quite complex to enforce. One method that would force clubs to recruit from within would be a limit on new signings per season. But that may be contravening employment law.

    The provinces are running at a loss which is made up by the international team though.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

    That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

    Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,175 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

    Not sure how that is feasible - you can't terminate contracts without paying them out - unless players willing leave without an exit payment. I understand that severance payments count towards the cap as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,721 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    durkadurka wrote: »
    That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

    Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.

    It's an interesting one. They won't be keen to cut their top level internationals as they get the 50k credit per player up to 600k, and will have the credit for international windows of up to £80k. So I'd imagine it'll be some fringe internationals and most of their foreign signings.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,210 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

    So the Vunipola's, Farrell, Itoje and Daly maybe?

    Never gonna happen.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,721 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Clegg wrote: »
    So the Vunipola's, Farrell, Itoje and Daly maybe?

    Never gonna happen.

    Farrell and Itoje are their excluded players I believe, don't count towards the cap


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.
    Two milliion?!? That's massive. And gives the lie to all the protestations about being inside the cap and squeaky clean now. 30% or thereabouts over the cap.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,210 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Farrell and Itoje are their excluded players I believe, don't count towards the cap

    Thanks. I didn't know that.

    So a few England internationals and a lot of squad/first teamers on lower salaries. That will decimate their team regardless and probably get them relegated anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    As I said earlier, they could back load their contracts. It's done in the NFL afaik. But it's a hell of a meaty chunk to ask players to forego until next season.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    What rules exist around how long you have to wait, should you "retire" and then "change your mind"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

    No way they manage that unless something else shady gets pulled.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭armchaircoach


    Racing are visiting this weekend. Perhaps they can be convinced to leave with more players than they arrived with


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Racing are visiting this weekend. Perhaps they can be convinced to leave with more players than they arrived with

    Chairman already asked by Midi; not interested due to high wages and national duty.

    https://www.rugbypass.com/news/french-clubs-want-action-taken-at-european-level-against-saracens/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    durkadurka wrote: »
    That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

    Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.

    230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

    Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

    Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

    Well its Sterling and I guess he was getting another chunk from Wales - 100k maybe?



    so it adds up to maybe €400k all told?

    I saw another article that said he's on 300k which does appear closer to where I would see him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Chairman already asked by Midi; not interested due to high wages and national duty.

    https://www.rugbypass.com/news/french-clubs-want-action-taken-at-european-level-against-saracens/
    Maybe they could all take to the field wearing bigger numbers on their shirts?


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    What rules exist around how long you have to wait, should you "retire" and then "change your mind"?

    Didn't something like this happen with Goosen? Can't quite remember how that played out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭testtech05


    aloooof wrote: »
    Didn't something like this happen with Goosen? Can't quite remember how that played out.

    He is starting against Connacht on Sunday anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Jeffrey Lebowski


    230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

    Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

    I got talking to a couple of scarlets guys after the Pro 14 Munster - Scarlets league final in Dublin. If you think 230K was a pittance, they told me what they thought he was on at Scarlets (around 40K). There is no money in rugby in Wales.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    I got talking to a couple of scarlets guys after the Pro 14 Munster - Scarlets league final in Dublin. If you think 230K was a pittance, they told me what they thought he was on at Scarlets (around 40K). There is no money in rugby in Wales.

    40k?

    That can't be true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Just to troll Thomond:

    McCall to Munster?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    40k?

    That can't be true.
    Yeah. Not a chance in hell. Luke FitzGerald was on a salary of 56k when he joined Leinster back in 2006.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Just to troll Thomond:

    McCall to Munster?

    Eh you're not trolling me with that suggestion.

    The IRFU should be on the phone to get him back to some role in Ireland.


  • Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I got talking to a couple of scarlets guys after the Pro 14 Munster - Scarlets league final in Dublin. If you think 230K was a pittance, they told me what they thought he was on at Scarlets (around 40K). There is no money in rugby in Wales.

    A month, aye?


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Jeffrey Lebowski


    awec wrote: »
    A month, aye?

    I was shocked when they told me, but they were insistant on it. There is a reason, they all leave Wales.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,175 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    As I said earlier, they could back load their contracts. It's done in the NFL afaik. But it's a hell of a meaty chunk to ask players to forego until next season.

    Open to correction but I think the PRL take the average salary of a player over the relevant contract period to avoid this scenario.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

    Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

    something of a source here:
    http://www.dai-sport.com/liam-williams-230000-reasons-hell-scarlet-sooner-rather-later/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Sangre wrote: »
    Open to correction but I think the PRL take the average salary of a player over the relevant contract period to avoid this scenario.
    They could still do it by back loading to a new contract after the current one expires. In other words, pay cut now, but a pay rise if you sign a new contract.

    Either way, there's no other way out except pay cuts. Offloading players mid-season is very rare and very hard to do.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I was shocked when they told me, but they were insistant on it. There is a reason, they all leave Wales.

    They would be leaving Wales if they were on 4 times that salary given what is available in France/England. I don't know where they got their info but I don't believe them for a second. The Welsh teams have a defined salary cap which can give you an idea of salary levels and there is no way that fits in.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Saracens players have been told the club will accept a further 35-point deduction that will effectively spell relegation from the Premiership.

    From the Telegraph. Paywall on article, so I can't expand on it.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7898369/Saracens-hold-crisis-talks-entire-squad-tell-stars-relegated.html

    I apologise for the link above


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    From the Telegraph. Paywall on article, so I can't expand on it.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7898369/Saracens-hold-crisis-talks-entire-squad-tell-stars-relegated.html

    I apologise for the link above

    They probably would have still stayed up if it was the season with London Welsh in it :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    From the Telegraph. Paywall on article, so I can't expand on it.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7898369/Saracens-hold-crisis-talks-entire-squad-tell-stars-relegated.html

    I apologise for the link above

    that newspaper is an absolute rag but they've been good on this story, to be fair to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭thegreycity


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    They would be leaving Wales if they were on 4 times that salary given what is available in France/England. I don't know where they got their info but I don't believe them for a second. The Welsh teams have a defined salary cap which can give you an idea of salary levels and there is no way that fits in.

    Nah man, Alun Wyn Jones only on 50k apparently. Heard he's been considering an offer to drive the London-Cardiff Mega Bus instead. Would be a decent pay increase but obviously there'd be a higher chance of injury to think about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    Nah man, Alun Wyn Jones only on 50k apparently. Heard he's been considering an offer to drive the London-Cardiff Mega Bus instead. Would be a decent pay increase but obviously there'd be a higher chance of injury to think about.

    Obviously the top internationals won't exactly be on the breadline but I'd well believe some of the Regions' squad players (even younger starting players not at international level) would be on an absolute pittance in Wales, earlier in their careers


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    durkadurka wrote: »

    probably gets a performance bonus 230k if isn't playing


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    durkadurka wrote: »
    that newspaper is an absolute rag but they've been good on this story, to be fair to them.

    Yeah I did apologise :D, they pretty much are saying what everyone else is reporting online and in the media.

    Good riddance to Saracens, anyone with a small portion of a brain could tell they had to be over the cap and clearly being unwilling to open their accounts it means that £2 million is on the low side. I would have sympathy for their supporters but I've seen zero contrition from any of theirs online for the last two months. They've all been pompous and in denial about it. Now it appears they seem to be accepting that their club has lied, lied and lied some more.


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