Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

Henry Ford III · 17-01-2020 1:45pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

Do they have any obligation to be?

thomond2006 · 17-01-2020 1:49pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Do they have any obligation to be?

Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we
Edit: I'm referring to the suggestion that Leinster sue...

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 17-01-2020 1:49pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we?

Who's throwing stones? Randomers on the internet don't count

Kevski · 17-01-2020 1:50pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we?

I don’t understand your point. There is no salary cap imposed on the league that Leinster plays in.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 1:56pm

An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 2:01pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

How are you that drunk this early Neil?

17-01-2020 2:01pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

This is an infinitely more bizarre take on things than suggesting thinking before going legal.

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 2:02pm

PRL have not removed Sarries titles or finishing positions. Therefore they remain legitimately qualified for Europe where there is no salary cap.

Leinster would be laughed out of it if they were stupid and petty enough to take any action. Which they aren’t so this is irrelevant.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 2:11pm

Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »

This is an infinitely more bizarre take on things than suggesting thinking before going legal.

Precisely what I proposed Leinster do. Lawyers "should be doing a deep dive" means a thorough exploration of all relevant details.

Winters · 17-01-2020 2:12pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Do they have any obligation to be?

The provinces and the IRFU might not have a salary cap but they do operate to budgets and cannot run at a loss unlike Saracens who have been cheating the agreed salary cap, running at a loss and writing off debt.

awec wrote: »

I think they need to re-think this whole salary cap thing, maybe move closer to the football model of Financial Fair Play where it's set at a european level rather than arbitrarily among each league.

As we have noticed it is quite complex to enforce. One method that would force clubs to recruit from within would be a limit on new signings per season. But that may be contravening employment law.

AdamD · 17-01-2020 2:12pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

What in the ****?

Anyways, Leinster will rightfully not pursue this. Nobody wants a trophy for a game they lost fairly on the pitch.

durkadurka · 17-01-2020 2:15pm

There's a line in a BBC report today that says that if they are relegated this year and win the Heineken, they won't be able to defend it, as all Heineken cup teams must be members of PRo14, Top 14 or Premiership.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 2:23pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

PRL have not removed Sarries titles or finishing positions. Therefore they remain legitimately qualified for Europe where there is no salary cap.

Leinster would be laughed out of it if they were stupid and petty enough to take any action. Which they aren’t so this is irrelevant.

But the relegation would set precedent that I'm sure would interest the likes of Exeter, wrt retrospectively applying it to seasons where they were in a similar state of financial doping. The only reason no titles have been stripped is because the ruling would apply to this year where they won't finish top. If things start getting applied retrospectively (Lance Armstrong style) this could get very interesting.

stephen_n · 17-01-2020 2:23pm

Winters wrote: »

The provinces and the IRFU might not have a salary cap but they do operate to budgets and cannot run at a loss unlike Saracens who have been cheating the agreed salary cap, running at a loss and writing off debt.

As we have noticed it is quite complex to enforce. One method that would force clubs to recruit from within would be a limit on new signings per season. But that may be contravening employment law.

The provinces are running at a loss which is made up by the international team though.

17-01-2020 2:24pm

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

durkadurka · 17-01-2020 2:30pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.

Sangre · 17-01-2020 2:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

Not sure how that is feasible - you can't terminate contracts without paying them out - unless players willing leave without an exit payment. I understand that severance payments count towards the cap as well.

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 2:34pm

durkadurka wrote: »

That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.

It's an interesting one. They won't be keen to cut their top level internationals as they get the 50k credit per player up to 600k, and will have the credit for international windows of up to £80k. So I'd imagine it'll be some fringe internationals and most of their foreign signings.

Clegg · 17-01-2020 2:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

So the Vunipola's, Farrell, Itoje and Daly maybe?

Never gonna happen.

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 2:35pm

Clegg wrote: »

So the Vunipola's, Farrell, Itoje and Daly maybe?

Never gonna happen.

Farrell and Itoje are their excluded players I believe, don't count towards the cap

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 2:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

Two milliion?!? That's massive. And gives the lie to all the protestations about being inside the cap and squeaky clean now. 30% or thereabouts over the cap.

Clegg · 17-01-2020 2:38pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Farrell and Itoje are their excluded players I believe, don't count towards the cap

Thanks. I didn't know that.

So a few England internationals and a lot of squad/first teamers on lower salaries. That will decimate their team regardless and probably get them relegated anyway.

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 2:39pm

As I said earlier, they could back load their contracts. It's done in the NFL afaik. But it's a hell of a meaty chunk to ask players to forego until next season.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 2:40pm

What rules exist around how long you have to wait, should you "retire" and then "change your mind"?

twinytwo · 17-01-2020 2:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

No way they manage that unless something else shady gets pulled.

armchaircoach · 17-01-2020 2:42pm

Racing are visiting this weekend. Perhaps they can be convinced to leave with more players than they arrived with

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 2:44pm

armchaircoach wrote: »

Racing are visiting this weekend. Perhaps they can be convinced to leave with more players than they arrived with

Chairman already asked by Midi; not interested due to high wages and national duty.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/french-clubs-want-action-taken-at-european-level-against-saracens/

thomond2006 · 17-01-2020 2:47pm

durkadurka wrote: »

That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.

230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

durkadurka · 17-01-2020 2:52pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

Well its Sterling and I guess he was getting another chunk from Wales - 100k maybe?

so it adds up to maybe €400k all told?

I saw another article that said he's on 300k which does appear closer to where I would see him.

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 2:55pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Chairman already asked by Midi; not interested due to high wages and national duty.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/french-clubs-want-action-taken-at-european-level-against-saracens/

Maybe they could all take to the field wearing bigger numbers on their shirts?

aloooof · 17-01-2020 2:55pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

What rules exist around how long you have to wait, should you "retire" and then "change your mind"?

Didn't something like this happen with Goosen? Can't quite remember how that played out.

testtech05 · 17-01-2020 2:57pm

aloooof wrote: »

Didn't something like this happen with Goosen? Can't quite remember how that played out.

He is starting against Connacht on Sunday anyway.

Jeffrey Lebowski · 17-01-2020 2:57pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

I got talking to a couple of scarlets guys after the Pro 14 Munster - Scarlets league final in Dublin. If you think 230K was a pittance, they told me what they thought he was on at Scarlets (around 40K). There is no money in rugby in Wales.

thomond2006 · 17-01-2020 3:00pm

Jeffrey Lebowski wrote: »

I got talking to a couple of scarlets guys after the Pro 14 Munster - Scarlets league final in Dublin. If you think 230K was a pittance, they told me what they thought he was on at Scarlets (around 40K). There is no money in rugby in Wales.

40k?

That can't be true.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 3:02pm

Just to troll Thomond:

McCall to Munster?

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 3:02pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

40k?

That can't be true.

Yeah. Not a chance in hell. Luke FitzGerald was on a salary of 56k when he joined Leinster back in 2006.

thomond2006 · 17-01-2020 3:03pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Just to troll Thomond:

McCall to Munster?

Eh you're not trolling me with that suggestion.

The IRFU should be on the phone to get him back to some role in Ireland.

awec · 17-01-2020 3:03pm

Jeffrey Lebowski wrote: »

I got talking to a couple of scarlets guys after the Pro 14 Munster - Scarlets league final in Dublin. If you think 230K was a pittance, they told me what they thought he was on at Scarlets (around 40K). There is no money in rugby in Wales.

A month, aye?

Jeffrey Lebowski · 17-01-2020 3:06pm

awec wrote: »

A month, aye?

I was shocked when they told me, but they were insistant on it. There is a reason, they all leave Wales.

Sangre · 17-01-2020 3:06pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

As I said earlier, they could back load their contracts. It's done in the NFL afaik. But it's a hell of a meaty chunk to ask players to forego until next season.

Open to correction but I think the PRL take the average salary of a player over the relevant contract period to avoid this scenario.

durkadurka · 17-01-2020 3:15pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

something of a source here:
http://www.dai-sport.com/liam-williams-230000-reasons-hell-scarlet-sooner-rather-later/

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 3:15pm

Sangre wrote: »

Open to correction but I think the PRL take the average salary of a player over the relevant contract period to avoid this scenario.

They could still do it by back loading to a new contract after the current one expires. In other words, pay cut now, but a pay rise if you sign a new contract.

Either way, there's no other way out except pay cuts. Offloading players mid-season is very rare and very hard to do.

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 3:16pm

Jeffrey Lebowski wrote: »

I was shocked when they told me, but they were insistant on it. There is a reason, they all leave Wales.

They would be leaving Wales if they were on 4 times that salary given what is available in France/England. I don't know where they got their info but I don't believe them for a second. The Welsh teams have a defined salary cap which can give you an idea of salary levels and there is no way that fits in.

17-01-2020 4:09pm

Saracens players have been told the club will accept a further 35-point deduction that will effectively spell relegation from the Premiership.

From the Telegraph. Paywall on article, so I can't expand on it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7898369/Saracens-hold-crisis-talks-entire-squad-tell-stars-relegated.html

I apologise for the link above

jr86 · 17-01-2020 4:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

From the Telegraph. Paywall on article, so I can't expand on it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7898369/Saracens-hold-crisis-talks-entire-squad-tell-stars-relegated.html

I apologise for the link above

They probably would have still stayed up if it was the season with London Welsh in it :pac:

durkadurka · 17-01-2020 4:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

From the Telegraph. Paywall on article, so I can't expand on it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7898369/Saracens-hold-crisis-talks-entire-squad-tell-stars-relegated.html

I apologise for the link above

that newspaper is an absolute rag but they've been good on this story, to be fair to them.

thegreycity · 17-01-2020 4:20pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

They would be leaving Wales if they were on 4 times that salary given what is available in France/England. I don't know where they got their info but I don't believe them for a second. The Welsh teams have a defined salary cap which can give you an idea of salary levels and there is no way that fits in.

Nah man, Alun Wyn Jones only on 50k apparently. Heard he's been considering an offer to drive the London-Cardiff Mega Bus instead. Would be a decent pay increase but obviously there'd be a higher chance of injury to think about.

jr86 · 17-01-2020 4:25pm

thegreycity wrote: »

Nah man, Alun Wyn Jones only on 50k apparently. Heard he's been considering an offer to drive the London-Cardiff Mega Bus instead. Would be a decent pay increase but obviously there'd be a higher chance of injury to think about.

Obviously the top internationals won't exactly be on the breadline but I'd well believe some of the Regions' squad players (even younger starting players not at international level) would be on an absolute pittance in Wales, earlier in their careers

Widdensushi · 17-01-2020 4:27pm

durkadurka wrote: »

something of a source here:
http://www.dai-sport.com/liam-williams-230000-reasons-hell-scarlet-sooner-rather-later/

probably gets a performance bonus 230k if isn't playing

17-01-2020 4:27pm

durkadurka wrote: »

that newspaper is an absolute rag but they've been good on this story, to be fair to them.

Yeah I did apologise

, they pretty much are saying what everyone else is reporting online and in the media.

Good riddance to Saracens, anyone with a small portion of a brain could tell they had to be over the cap and clearly being unwilling to open their accounts it means that £2 million is on the low side. I would have sympathy for their supporters but I've seen zero contrition from any of theirs online for the last two months. They've all been pompous and in denial about it. Now it appears they seem to be accepting that their club has lied, lied and lied some more.

Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

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