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Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

thomond2006

It's probably worth its own thread by now.

RugbyPass reporting that Saracens could be set for automatic relegation after failing to reduce their salaries in time.

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/?__twitter_impression=true

Now this is Rugbypass who are quite clickbaity so let's see if more media run with this.

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jr86

molloyjh wrote: »

So winning Europe would not allow Saracens compete in the HEC again next season:

https://twitter.com/willgkelleher/status/1218137587963060225?s=19

Is it the Champions Cup powers that be themselves or the RFU who choose England's representatives?

Obviously England are given a certain allocation (which is naturally the top 6 in the league as it makes sense) but is this strictly enforced? Could the RFU - for example - give a place for the cup winners, if they felt like it?

this ruling would seem to imply its the Champions Cup themselves that govern it, meaning the championship is about as relevant as the Uruguay amateur league, and the fact its an English league makes no difference?

Neil3030

So there's no salary cap imposed by the European Cup, but their rules require you to be in a feeder league.

In Sarries' case, they were only in that feeder league because they cheated....

Leinster lawyers surely doing a deep dive on this...

awec

Neil3030 wrote: »

So there's no salary cap imposed by the European Cup, but their rules require you to be in a feeder league.

In Sarries' case, they were only in that feeder league because they cheated....

Leinster lawyers surely doing a deep dive on this...

I would really hope not. Would look pretty petty.

thomond2006

The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

I would really hope not. Would look pretty petty.

Our fifth crown is inevitable.

Obtaining through the courts would simply add some variety.

awec

I think they need to re-think this whole salary cap thing, maybe move closer to the football model of Financial Fair Play where it's set at a european level rather than arbitrarily among each league.

Neil3030

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

Does the Pro14 require them to be?

un5byh7sqpd2x0

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

There's no salary cap in the Pro 14

thomond2006

Anderson Future Custard wrote: »

There's no salary cap in the Pro 14

I'm aware of that but it would be rich of us to go this road...

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

I think they need to re-think this whole salary cap thing, maybe move closer to the football model of Financial Fair Play where it's set at a european level rather than arbitrarily among each league.

Current football FFP rules omit infrastructure, training facilities and youth development from qualified outgoings. Just hand Leinster the next ten European Cups now. We'll take them in midnight silver, please.

Henry Ford III

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

Do they have any obligation to be?

thomond2006

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Do they have any obligation to be?

Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we
Edit: I'm referring to the suggestion that Leinster sue...

un5byh7sqpd2x0

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we?

Who's throwing stones? Randomers on the internet don't count

Kevski

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nope but we're not in the best place to throw stones are we?

I don’t understand your point. There is no salary cap imposed on the league that Leinster plays in.

Neil3030

An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

Squidgy Black

Neil3030 wrote: »

An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

How are you that drunk this early Neil?

[Deleted User]

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

This is an infinitely more bizarre take on things than suggesting thinking before going legal.

Podge_irl

PRL have not removed Sarries titles or finishing positions. Therefore they remain legitimately qualified for Europe where there is no salary cap.

Leinster would be laughed out of it if they were stupid and petty enough to take any action. Which they aren’t so this is irrelevant.

Neil3030

Interested Observer wrote: »

This is an infinitely more bizarre take on things than suggesting thinking before going legal.

Precisely what I proposed Leinster do. Lawyers "should be doing a deep dive" means a thorough exploration of all relevant details.

Winters

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Do they have any obligation to be?

The provinces and the IRFU might not have a salary cap but they do operate to budgets and cannot run at a loss unlike Saracens who have been cheating the agreed salary cap, running at a loss and writing off debt.

awec wrote: »

I think they need to re-think this whole salary cap thing, maybe move closer to the football model of Financial Fair Play where it's set at a european level rather than arbitrarily among each league.

As we have noticed it is quite complex to enforce. One method that would force clubs to recruit from within would be a limit on new signings per season. But that may be contravening employment law.

[Deleted User]

Neil3030 wrote: »

An opportunity presents to strike at a weakened, proven cheat, and people worry about looking petty.

I just hope there's no lingering confusion over why Ireland was colonized so routinely.

What in the ****?

Anyways, Leinster will rightfully not pursue this. Nobody wants a trophy for a game they lost fairly on the pitch.

durkadurka

There's a line in a BBC report today that says that if they are relegated this year and win the Heineken, they won't be able to defend it, as all Heineken cup teams must be members of PRo14, Top 14 or Premiership.

Neil3030

Podge_irl wrote: »

PRL have not removed Sarries titles or finishing positions. Therefore they remain legitimately qualified for Europe where there is no salary cap.

Leinster would be laughed out of it if they were stupid and petty enough to take any action. Which they aren’t so this is irrelevant.

But the relegation would set precedent that I'm sure would interest the likes of Exeter, wrt retrospectively applying it to seasons where they were in a similar state of financial doping. The only reason no titles have been stripped is because the ruling would apply to this year where they won't finish top. If things start getting applied retrospectively (Lance Armstrong style) this could get very interesting.

stephen_n

Winters wrote: »

The provinces and the IRFU might not have a salary cap but they do operate to budgets and cannot run at a loss unlike Saracens who have been cheating the agreed salary cap, running at a loss and writing off debt.

As we have noticed it is quite complex to enforce. One method that would force clubs to recruit from within would be a limit on new signings per season. But that may be contravening employment law.

The provinces are running at a loss which is made up by the international team though.

[Deleted User]

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

durkadurka

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.

Sangre

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

Not sure how that is feasible - you can't terminate contracts without paying them out - unless players willing leave without an exit payment. I understand that severance payments count towards the cap as well.

Squidgy Black

durkadurka wrote: »

That is a lot of players. Like 10-15 squadmen or five -seven first teamers.

Eg someone said Liam Williams was on 230k.

It's an interesting one. They won't be keen to cut their top level internationals as they get the 50k credit per player up to 600k, and will have the credit for international windows of up to £80k. So I'd imagine it'll be some fringe internationals and most of their foreign signings.

Clegg

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens have to drop 2 million from wage bill by the end of the month or they are gone.

So the Vunipola's, Farrell, Itoje and Daly maybe?

Never gonna happen.

Squidgy Black

Clegg wrote: »

So the Vunipola's, Farrell, Itoje and Daly maybe?

Never gonna happen.

Farrell and Itoje are their excluded players I believe, don't count towards the cap