The glorious 12th

downcow · 16-07-2019 5:22pm

armaghlad wrote: »

Just curious as to how he was directly involved? Being caught with the weapon used doesn’t necessarily mean he carried out the Kingsmill massacre.

He was probably just an innocent collector of guns used in sectarian massacres Oh dear

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 5:23pm

downcow wrote: »

I made no false claims. I personal listened to their spokesperson say he would expect Irish signs in the shankill whether people wanted them or not. It shouldn’t be difficult to find the quote.

It is up to you to back up your claims about statements and phone calls to party leaders.

What you have included above is totally reasonable if that is their new position. I would have no complaints about.
It’s just the old problem that you will be able to identify the makeup of the area and hence who feels welcome by the signage

Signs in Fermanagh & Omagh District Council have had Irish on them for years and the area hasn't exactly become unliveable in or descended in to bitter internecine feuding.

Unionism needs to get over itself a little bit about language and flags. They'll be dragged into the modern age just like they were over SSM and Abortion rights.

downcow · 16-07-2019 5:25pm

armaghlad wrote: »

Just curious as to how he was directly involved? Being caught with the weapon used doesn’t necessarily mean he carried out the Kingsmill massacre.

I take it you are consistent and apply the same strange rational to the loughinisland massacre and no stone unturned. Those guys are probably innocent as well

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 5:29pm

downcow wrote: »

Here we are. Same group saying the opposite. I am pleased if they are realising their initial position would never fly.
And to be honest my preferred position is that all cultures are welcome everywhere
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/unionist-fears-as-irish-groups-spell-out-vision-for-language-1-8375754/amp

You do understand what a 'rights based' proposal is yeh?

There will be dual language signs on the Shankill if enough people there demand or want it. Because that would be their 'right' under an act.

If there isn't enough people demanding/wanting it, it won't happen.

Typical scaremongering by people who pluck stuff out of context.

downcow · 16-07-2019 5:36pm

Irish language group not only confirming the demand for all road signs in Irish even where they are not wanted, but also agreeing 100% with my marking territory concern. She even compares on putting Irish signs where they are wanted as the same as “painting kerbstones”.
These are the false claims I am being accused of. Looks like more stuff needs retracted.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156188117398383&id=91379563382&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2F&_rdr

downcow · 16-07-2019 5:38pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You do understand what a 'rights based' proposal is yeh?

There will be dual language signs on the Shankill if enough people there demand or want it. Because that would be their 'right' under an act.

If there isn't enough people demanding/wanting it, it won't happen.

Typical scaremongering by people who pluck stuff out of context.

Have wee listen to my last post and then tell us who is scaremongering

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 5:39pm

Extraordinary that Dodds thinks the Union is so fragile that some street signs are in danger of breaking it.

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 5:40pm

downcow wrote: »

Have wee listen to my last post and then tell us who is scaremongering

The one where Nolan puts the word 'impose' in her mouth?

Stop moaning ffs · 16-07-2019 5:41pm

Imagine your whole identity being threatened by a road sign in a different language.

It’s almost like they think we’re coming to force them to learn Irish and take English and ‘their British identity’ off them

Can’t imagine why they’d be afraid of that. It’s not like they haven’t done it before themselves. Here.

downcow · 16-07-2019 5:44pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Imagine your whole identity being threatened by a road sign in a different language.

It’s almost like they think we’re coming to force them to learn Irish and take English and ‘their British identity’ off them

Can’t imagine why they’d be afraid of that. It’s not like they haven’t done it before themselves. Here.

Same fear you seem to have about a wee fleg on a lamppost.

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 5:49pm

downcow wrote: »

Same fear you seem to have about a wee fleg on a lamppost.

Let's ignore all the other bigoted stuff that goes on around the 12th, yeh?

Stop moaning ffs · 16-07-2019 5:50pm

downcow wrote: »

Same fear you seem to have about a wee fleg on a lamppost.

The other cores aren’t setting up bonfires and threatening violence against you though.

If your identity is so threatened by some letters in a sequence you don’t understand, your identity really isn’t all that secure to begin with

James Brown · 16-07-2019 5:53pm

downcow wrote: »

Same fear you seem to have about a wee fleg on a lamppost.

We'll always have an Orange Order and the 12th, but as the years and society move on it'll be akin to Morris dancing and the like. An antiquated tradition most don't celebrate or get.

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 5:54pm

When you couple Dodds fears that seeing the Irish language will weaken the Union with Sammy Wilson's attempt to silence anyone talking about Unionists losing a Border Poll because that in itself might actually usher one in, you realise what a perilous state Unionists believe themselves to be in.

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 5:55pm

downcow wrote: »

Same fear you seem to have about a wee fleg on a lamppost.

For most of the history of the NI statelet the british flag was hung more to remind the "fenians" whose state they were living in rather than any celebration of culture.

downcow · 16-07-2019 6:32pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The other cores aren’t setting up bonfires and threatening violence against you though.

If your identity is so threatened by some letters in a sequence you don’t understand, your identity really isn’t all that secure to begin with

If you identity depends on putting a few letters up in a sequence you no practically nobody can understand then your identity is not too secure.
Any chance of a more adult discussion rather than a game of sectarian tennis.

Junkyard Tom · 16-07-2019 6:35pm

downcow wrote: »

all cultures are welcome everywhere

If Republicans decide they want to start marching through a couple of staunchly unionist towns, a couple of times every year, to commemorate the Provisional IRA you'd welcome that? Because that would be a facsimile of a lot of Unionist 'culture'.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-07-2019 6:35pm

downcow wrote: »

If you identity depends on putting a few letters up in a sequence you no practically nobody can understand then your identity is not too secure.
Any chance of a more adult discussion rather than a game of sectarian tennis.

Ehhh we aren’t the ones objecting to a few road signs.

Sectarian tennis?

You were accusing Mary Lou of murder just a couple of hours ago

You’re a fvkin feast of comedy

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 6:35pm

downcow wrote: »

If you identity depends on putting a few letters up in a sequence you no practically nobody can understand then your identity is not too secure.
Any chance of a more adult discussion rather than a game of sectarian tennis.

They have dual signage in Wales afaik, so what's the difficulty doing the same in NI?

_blaaz · 16-07-2019 6:36pm

Odhinn wrote: »

They have dual signage in Wales afaik, so what's the difficulty doing the same in NI?

Look its 0bvious the poster dispises nationlists and irish culture,but for obvious reasons cant say it,beacuse it is hate speech for fear of being banned..

..so jumps through hoops and provides implications in their posts that can only lead to 1 conclusion

downcow · 16-07-2019 6:36pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We'll always have an Orange Order and the 12th, but as the years and society move on it'll be akin to Morris dancing and the like. An antiquated tradition most don't celebrate or get.

Maybe they can go then and get advice of what Irish language speakers done when the culture diminished to tiny numbers participating. Maybe they’ll even understand each other then.

But I take your point that it’s the very popularity and strength of the orange culture that seems to upset many so if it weakens then nationalists will probably show it more respect and understanding

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 6:39pm

downcow wrote: »

Maybe they can go then and get advice of what Irish language speakers done when the culture diminished to tiny numbers participating. Maybe they’ll even understand each other then.

But I take your point that it’s the very popularity and strength of the orange culture that seems to upset many so if it weakens then nationalists will probably show it more respect and understanding

No, it's decades of having marches through nationalist areas so the croppies remember to lie down . That kind of bullying sectarianism doesn't win fans overall.

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 7:03pm

downcow wrote: »

Maybe they can go then and get advice of what Irish language speakers done when the culture diminished to tiny numbers participating. Maybe they’ll even understand each other then.

But I take your point that it’s the very popularity and strength of the orange culture that seems to upset many so if it weakens then nationalists will probably show it more respect and understanding

Membership falling from 76,000 to approx 30,000 is not an Order in good or strong shape I would wager.

RobMc59 · 16-07-2019 7:21pm

Odhinn wrote: »

They have dual signage in Wales afaik, so what's the difficulty doing the same in NI?

There are no major political or cultural differences in Wales and Welsh is spoken extensively.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-07-2019 7:24pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

There are no major political or cultural differences in Wales and Welsh is spoken extensively.

And not oppressed by an English minority living in their midst whilst all attempts at a shared equal society where both cultures and heritage have equal space should be able to flourish without cost to each other

Looks up north.

They’re putting Irish on road signs!!
My identity is threatened!!

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 7:25pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

There are no major political or cultural differences in Wales and Welsh is spoken extensively.

Why should "cultural differences" mean a signpost can't have two languages on it?

RobMc59 · 16-07-2019 7:30pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Why should "cultural differences" mean a signpost can't have two languages on it?

I would`nt imagine a Union flag would be welcome outside the "bogside inn"in Derry just as the aformentioned signposts may not be welcome in other areas,certainly either should not be compulsory to keep the peace.

Stop moaning ffs · 16-07-2019 7:35pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I would`nt imagine a Union flag would be welcome outside the "bogside inn"in Derry just as the aformentioned signposts may not be welcome in other areas,certainly either should not be compulsory to keep the peace.

Make it compulsory.
Every road sign that also features Irish, must have a Union Jack flying above it.

*nobody lost driving will be looking at the Irish or up at the flag. They’ll just want directions and to know where they are

Simples

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 7:40pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I would`nt imagine a Union flag would be welcome outside the "bogside inn"in Derry just as the aformentioned signposts may not be welcome in other areas,certainly either should not be compulsory to keep the peace.

There's laws governing flags and symbols that applies to both communities. Essentially you're backing a unionist veto.

RobMc59 · 16-07-2019 7:50pm

Odhinn wrote: »

There's laws governing flags and symbols that applies to both communities. Essentially you're backing a unionist veto.

I`m backing common sense Odhinn.Would people in Unionist areas be likely to speak Irish?

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 7:53pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m backing common sense Odhinn.Would people in Unionist areas be likely to speak Irish?

Unlikely. Thats why you'd have english on the same sign......

Stop moaning ffs · 16-07-2019 7:55pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m backing common sense Odhinn.Would people in Unionist areas be likely to speak Irish?

Some of them might speak in Ulster Scots. An accent derived from Scots Gaelic. Which itself derived from Irish Gaelic.

Tangled eh?

RobMc59 · 16-07-2019 7:57pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Unlikely. Thats why you'd have english on the same sign......

Fair point...:)

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 8:02pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fair point...:)

To be clear, what SF are after is bi-lingual signs, not irish only. Parity of esteem and all that.

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 8:05pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Essentially you're backing a unionist veto.

That's essentially what it is. And it's extraordinary the mess the DUP have made of all this by sheer belligerence.
Interesting words which should be a stark warning to Unionists going forward - their denial of rights will no longer fly.

Simon Hoare Chair, Northern Ireland Affairs Committee wrote:

It seems to me that there is an incredibly strong and compelling argument about the universality of human rights for citizens of the United Kingdom and to try to move away from that in some way starts to pick away at some of the fabric of Unionism."

The speaker was earlier told by Sammy Wilson to more or less shut up talking about Unionists losing a border poll, as that kinda talk might precipitate a Border Poll.

endacl · 16-07-2019 8:09pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Some of them might speak in Ulster Scots, best described as ‘a bit of an accent’.

Better.

janfebmar · 16-07-2019 8:43pm

Odhinn wrote: »

To be clear, what SF are after is bi-lingual signs, .

And who would pay the 7 billion pounds necessary to translate and print all signs / government publications, etc etc in to Irish as well? Its not as if many use Irish. There is an Irish language page here on boards.ie, last time I looked it was only getting a few posts a month. Maybe Irish speakers never use the internet.

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 8:46pm

janfebmar wrote: »

And who would pay the 7 billion pounds necessary to translate and print all signs / government publications, etc etc in to Irish as well?

Please provide a source that states the sum of 7 billion would be required.

janfebmar · 16-07-2019 8:50pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Please provide a source that states the sum of 7 billion would be required.

Once you tell me how many signs there are on roads,streets, areas, outside and inside public buildings, hospitals, on vehicles, how many government publications there are, websites etc etc.

Odhinn · 16-07-2019 8:59pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Once you tell me how many signs there are on roads,streets, areas, outside and inside public buildings, hospitals, on vehicles, how many government publications there are, websites etc etc.

So you made up the 7 billion figure. Quelle Surprise.

dudara · 16-07-2019 9:00pm

@stop moaning ffs - one day ban for dick*sh comment

@lawred2 - yellow card for same

dudara

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 9:02pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Once you tell me how many signs there are on roads,streets, areas, outside and inside public buildings, hospitals, on vehicles, how many government publications there are, websites etc etc.

You came up with the final figure and now you are going to make what is required fit that bill?

Imreoir2 · 16-07-2019 9:07pm

downcow wrote: »

I made no false claims. I personal listened to their spokesperson say he would expect Irish signs in the shankill whether people wanted them or not. It shouldn’t be difficult to find the quote.

What you have included above is totally reasonable if that is their new position. I would have no complaints about.
It’s just the old problem that you will be able to identify the makeup of the area and hence who feels welcome by the signage

It's not a new position, it was in the discussion document Conradh na Gaeilge published on an Irish Language Act back in 2017.

citytillidie · 16-07-2019 9:17pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m backing common sense Odhinn.Would people in Unionist areas be likely to speak Irish?

Yes they do

https://www.ebm.org.uk/turas/

“Turas” meaning journey or pilgrimage in both Irish Gaelige and Scots Gàidhlig is an Irish language project which aims to connect people from Protestant communities to their own history with the Irish language. Turas is based on the belief that the language belongs to everyone and that it can be a mechanism of reconciliation.

Imreoir2 · 16-07-2019 9:18pm

downcow wrote: »

Irish language group not only confirming the demand for all road signs in Irish even where they are not wanted, but also agreeing 100% with my marking territory concern. She even compares on putting Irish signs where they are wanted as the same as “painting kerbstones”.
These are the false claims I am being accused of. Looks like more stuff needs retracted.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156188117398383&id=91379563382&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2F&_rdr

That is one persons opinion. Conradh na Gaeilge are not proposing that bilingual street signage should be imposed on anyone. Road signage and signage for public bodies is another issue, they propose that road signage in shared spaces should be bilingual and that signage used by public bodies should be bilingual. There is a difference between street signage on the one hand and road signage or signage from public bodies which are used by everyone. Shared spaces should reflect the whole community, not just Unionism.

I don't know if there are any public bodies based on the Shankill Road, if there are then the proposed act would mean that the body in question would have bilingual signage. But the Shankill Road or the streets in that area would not have bilingual street signs unless the local residents wanted them.

firemansam4 · 16-07-2019 9:18pm

Let's just bring this back on topic here a bit....

OK I'm directing this post at Downcow.

It seems you are trying to make the point that us southerners don't get your culture surrounding the 12th and have got it all wrong.

When we make the point that it is disgusting seeing multiple bonfires burning our national flag on this day, you just say that it is just something that goes on both sides of the community.
You have posted random isolated examples of where this has happened in the past.

But the problem with your argument and something you still have not answered is that on the 12th this burning of our flag happens on a massive scale in NI orchestrated by members of the OO and loyalists.
There is nothing that comes close to comparing to it.

Can you give me one example of where this kind of thing happens in the ROI on the same scale?

It is going to be very hard for anyone down this side of the border to have any respect for your culture while this kind of thing happens every year, I just don't see how you could think any different? Try and put yourself in our shoes and imagine how you would feel about it?

citytillidie · 16-07-2019 9:21pm

firemansam4 wrote: »

Let's just bring this back on topic here a bit....

OK I'm directing this post at Downcow.

It seems you are trying to make the point that us southerners don't get your culture surrounding the 12th and have got it all wrong.

When we make the point that it is disgusting seeing multiple bonfires burning our national flag on this day, you just say that it is just something that goes on both sides of the community.
You have posted random isolated examples of where this has happened in the past.

But the problem with your argument and something you still have not answered is that on the 12th this burning of our flag happens on a massive scale in NI orchestrated by members of the OO and loyalists.
There is nothing that comes close to comparing to it.

Can you give me one example of where this kind of thing happens in the ROI on the same scale?

It is going to be very hard for anyone down this side of the border to have any respect for your culture while this kind of thing happens every year, I just don't see how you could think any different? Try and put yourself in our shoes and imagine how you would feel about it?

Don't forget the Unionist ministers also don't condone the burning of the flags and even attend such bonfires where they are burned

Imreoir2 · 16-07-2019 9:24pm

janfebmar wrote: »

And who would pay the 7 billion pounds necessary to translate and print all signs / government publications, etc etc in to Irish as well? Its not as if many use Irish. There is an Irish language page here on boards.ie, last time I looked it was only getting a few posts a month. Maybe Irish speakers never use the internet.

Where in the name of god did you get that number from?

Irish speakers don't use Irish on Boards because Boards does not welcome the use of Irish. Irish speakers tend to congregate over on Facebook/Twitter and Instagram.

FrancieBrady · 16-07-2019 10:02pm

citytillidie wrote: »

Don't forget the Unionist ministers also don't condone the burning of the flags and even attend such bonfires where they are burned

The absolute affront and cheek of Arlene Foster stating to the Scots parade that Orangeism is about 'civil and religious liberties'.
She was followed by a speaker who called 'James Connolly a terrorist and shouted No Surrender'.

downcow · 16-07-2019 10:40pm

I think this case, ridiculous as it is, could have serious repercussions for the Irish language plans.
This civil servant, working for the queen, got offended because her photo was up in the workplace and he had to walk past it. He was paid £10,000 out of court and was consulted on what photo he would like in its place.
What does this mean for Irish language signs if they offend people? The law up here says that there should be nothing on display that offends people.
If I work in a bar that has fir on the door will I get £10,000 and will it be removed.
I think it has opened a can of worms
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/civil-servant-queen-portrait-northern-ireland-lee-hegarty-lord-maginnis-nio-a9002086.html%3famp

The glorious 12th

Comments