The glorious 12th

downcow

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t want to do this but due to some posters interest here you are.

Hope this works. Never added a photo before

Do you also need evidence that the idea that tricolours are not allowed at st Patrick’s parade is nonsense or could some of you fairminded nationalists put are friend straight on the matter

McMurphy

Popped up on my Facebook news feed the other day posted by a friend of mine, a Lurgan man, who has fcuked off to Dingle for a few days to avoid the hate fest up there.

I know it's a few years ago, but this was the bonfire in the Doonbeg housing estate back in 2013.



It was barely a full month after a priest in the area (Matt Wallace) committed suicide by hanging.

This is the culture that they demand be respected.

Nothing only hate filled supremacism, racist and bigotry.

Loyalists thrive on hate, burning flags and emblems, effigies of political and religious people, homosexuals and people of a different race or nationality.

Loyalists keep celebrating events of the past.

Nationallists look to the future.

The whole hatefest should be outlawed, or at the very least heavily contained and regulated.

Start with the bonfires, do it under environmental laws, and work down from there.

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

It's all a bit sad really

Don’t be blaming the young people. While posters on here casually refer to their neighbours flag as the butchers apron then why would the not burn it at st Patrick’s parades and on their bonfires.
Can you imagine how long I would last on here if I referred to the roi flag in similar terms

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Popped up on my Facebook news feed the other day posted by a friend of mine, a Lurgan man, who has fcuked off to Dingle for a few days to avoid the hate fest up there.

I know it's a few years ago, but this was the bonfire in the Doonbeg housing estate back in 2013.



It was barely a full month after a priest in the area (Matt Wallace) committed suicide by hanging.

This is the culture that they demand be respected.

Nothing only hate filled supremacism, racist and bigotry.

Loyalists thrive on hate, burning flags and emblems, effigies of political and religious people, homosexuals and people of a different race or nationality.

Loyalists keep celebrating events of the past.

Nationallists look to the future.

The whole hatefest should be outlawed, or at the very least heavily contained and regulated.

Start with the bonfires, do it under environmental laws, and work down from there.

Jonny do you want photo of an equally disgusting nationalist bonfire? I can do that as well if you wish but it’s not pleasant. This is achieving nothing focusing on the worst of both communities

Stop moaning ffs

downcow wrote: »

Do you also need evidence that the idea that tricolours are not allowed at st Patrick’s parade is nonsense or could some of you fairminded nationalists put are friend straight on the matter

Looking at pictures from the last few parades. Not one tricolour in the parade itself anywhere.
Here’s a few thousand spectators at city hall and.....maybe two flags

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t want to do this but due to some posters interest here you are.

Hope this works. Never added a photo before

OH BOY.

I recognise that picture. It's from this article, where it was burned in protest of some unionists who were protesting a St. Patrick's Day parade. For context.

I mean, yeah, it's revolting. I don't agree with unionists protesting St. Patrick's day but by all evidence they were doing so peacefully and well within their rights to do so. At least at first, once the nationalists started getting aggressive (culminating in the flag burning), the unionists responded in kind - which tends to happen with protests and counter-protests sadly.

Funnily enough, downcow, I also found that picture/article because I was looking to compare the prevalence of Union Jack burning at Paddy's day parades vs what goes on on the 12th. And it was the only one I could find. If there are others I'd like to see them because as it stands the list I showed you last time this topic came up remains incredibly lopsided.

downcow

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Looking at pictures from the last few parades. Not one tricolour in the parade itself anywhere.
Here’s a few thousand spectators at city hall and.....maybe two flags

It was photos with tricolours we were looking for. Not ones without 😂. Let’s be honest with each other and we might learn something

Stop moaning ffs

downcow wrote: »

It was photos with tricolours we were looking for. Not ones without 😂. Let’s be honest with each other and we might learn something

There’s no bonfires with union jacks on them. Anywhere.

Strange that.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t want to do this but due to some posters interest here you are.

Hope this works. Never added a photo before

When was this?

Looks like a stock photo that gets regurgitated depending on what paper you read.

Google the image for yourself

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

OH BOY.

I recognise that picture. It's from this article, where it was burned in protest of some unionists who were protesting a St. Patrick's Day parade. For context.

I mean, yeah, it's revolting. I don't agree with unionists protesting St. Patrick's day but by all evidence they were doing so peacefully and well within their rights to do so. At least at first, once the nationalists started getting aggressive (culminating in the flag burning), the unionists responded in kind - which tends to happen with protests and counter-protests sadly.

Funnily enough, downcow, I also found that picture/article because I was looking to compare the prevalence of Union Jack burning at Paddy's day parades vs what goes on on the 12th. And it was the only one I could find. If there are others I'd like to see them because as it stands the list I showed you last time this topic came up remains incredibly lopsided.

Thanks for a honest in context reply. Much appreciated.
Now can you post me a union flag being burnt at the 12th parade. I am not saying that hadn’t happened but I will be stunned if that is tolerated at a twelfth parade. And don’t be posting stuff from other events like 11th night until we get this comparison between st Patrick’s parade and the twelfth parade sorted. Then we could move on to nighttime events if you wish.

Stop moaning ffs

These goalposts are moving at Olympic speeds

downcow

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

There’s no bonfires with union jacks on them. Anywhere.

Strange that.

Do you want photos of bonfires with union jacks on them? There are plenty to chose from but I thought we were discussing the st Patrick’s parade.

citytillidie

Organisers of St Patrick's Day parades in the North do not include Tri colours more shamrock flags or St Patrick's saltare as part of the parade, they can't stop those coming to watch bringing Tri colours it's not hard to understand.

McMurphy

citytillidie wrote: »

Organisers of St Patrick's Day parades in the North do not include Tri colours more shamrock flags or St Patrick's saltare as part of the parade, they can't stop those coming to watch bring Tri colours it's not hard to understand.

It's easy to pretend to get them confused though.

cgcsb

downcow wrote: »

Don’t be blaming the young people. While posters on here casually refer to their neighbours flag as the butchers apron then why would the not burn it at st Patrick’s parades and on their bonfires.

Like again we have the extreme what-aboutary Loyalists engage in intimidation, flag waving, kerb painting, flag burning, marching etc. on an industrial scale, thoroughly ignored by police. A handful of nationalists do similar things in far fewer numbers on a much smaller scale and are harassed by police for same. And for some reason these two are compared.

Lackadaisical

It's amazing how they don't seem to realise or care that this stuff has a very chilling effect on tourism.

I was talking to a group of french people during the week who saw a few headlines about the 12th and cancelled a trip around the North coast, instead spending more time doing the South and West. They had been planning to do several days in Northern Ireland.

During what should be peak tourism season the whole thing makes NI seem dangerous.

Jimmy Garlic

downcow wrote: »

I find this thread a pretty depressing read. It is so far away from reality I just don't know if there is any point in trying to educate.
I would love to know in a few sentences or bullet points what you think happens at a twelfth parade. If you do that then i will respond honestly and openly.
We need to stop this hate and misunderstanding of a whole community

A lot of protestants don't even bother with the 12th. A million odd protestants. How many of them turned out for the marches compared to thirty years ago? Less than half the number I would say. I worked with a Baptist, the entire congregation of his church had nothing to do with it, or the OO. Protestants increasingly running away from the OO like the plague, ditching it. Same happened in the American South with the KKK.

downcow

cgcsb wrote: »

Like again we have the extreme what-aboutary Loyalists engage in intimidation, flag waving, kerb painting, flag burning, marching etc. on an industrial scale, thoroughly ignored by police. A handful of nationalists do similar things in far fewer numbers on a much smaller scale and are harassed by police for same. And for some reason these two are compared.

I am still waiting for that photo of just one of these endless tricolours being burned at twelfth parades.

And I agree to some extent with what you say in that parading is a huge part of unionist culture evident in 3,000 plus per year. Our cultures are not symmetrical which leads to this huge misunderstanding. Celtic music and gaa are much bigger in Irish culture and while significant in unionist culture are much smaller.
The difference is that unionists are not fixated with putting Irish culture under a microscope with the intention of putting it down.
We have ira songs on gaa team buses. Wolfe tonnes appearing at gaa clubs. Irish flag flying at NI gaa grounds etc etc. Unionist in the main could care less about this stuff. And Issues of these in unionist sporting activities are rare

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

francie it is ironic you quote such a way out website. You recently slated me for comparing certain aspects of the OO to the RC church and yet the website you link does just this e.g.
"....the Orange Order and the Roman Catholic Church were equally responsible for stirring up religious strife and bigotry and both presented a false Christ"
&
"certain objectionable rituals are common to the Black, Jesuits, Mormons, Templers, Freemasons, Knights of Malta and others."

and of course i could go on and on. and i could post endless websites that present irish culture etc in a very bad light but that is just petty whataboutery and not representative of these organisations and communities as a whole.

What is your point here?
I would have as many criticisms of the RC. And I do criticise it here on Boards, all the time.

However the RC Church is a religion, the OO is a Protestant Political Organisation.

Totally different things.

FrancieBrady

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

A lot of protestants don't even bother with the 12th. A million odd protestants. How many of them turned out for the marches compared to thirty years ago? Less than half the number I would say. I worked with a Baptist, the entire congregation of his church had nothing to do with it, or the OO. Protestants increasingly running away from the OO like the plague, ditching it. Same happened in the American South with the KKK.

Membership of the OO has more than halved since the late sixties. It's membership age profile would not suggest that trend is going to alter much in the coming years.

downcow

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

A lot of protestants don't even bother with the 12th. A million odd protestants. How many of them turned out for the marches compared to thirty years ago? Less than half the number I would say. I worked with a Baptist, the entire congregation of his church had nothing to do with it, or the OO. Protestants increasingly running away from the OO like the plague, ditching it. Same happened in the American South with the KKK.

That’s a very strange response to my question. But in response to you. This year approx 250,000 out of about 700,000 unionist attended the twelfth. Can you identify and celebration anywhere in the world where a higher percentage of the population will attend ie more than 1 in 3?

Stop moaning ffs

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Membership of the OO has more than halved since the late sixties. It's membership age profile would not suggest that trend is going to alter much in the coming years.

Seeing that you’d hope that unionist parties would be freed from the grip of control The OO seem to have on them.
Would be great for politics as a whole in the region if they didn’t have the redundant and often malignant interference and dictates of the OO calling the shots for certain parties

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Membership of the OO has more than halved since the late sixties. It's membership age profile would not suggest that trend is going to alter much in the coming years.

I would say the way it operates. The pomp, ceremony, discipline etc run by old men is alien to young people and youth culture. Hence the numbers are falling (although recently stabilised temporary) and young people are flocking to the loyalist bands in huge numbers. The big flute bands have extensive waiting lists to join and new bands are being formed.
If I was in the OO I would see that as the greatest challenge to the organisation ie to reform us structure etc. I won’t hold my breath but I guess it will happen slowly

FrancieBrady

It is time for Unionists crying 'but it's our culture' to take an unblinkered look at the south. A hard and honest look.

There they will see a 'culturally intact society' that has removed the toxic, archaic and restrictive influence of religious suprematism and control.

There is nothing to be afraid of, if you do this. And look around you, the fall in numbers willing to subscribe to organisations like the OO, shows you it is underway anyway.
Look at David Trimble, has he diminished as a person because he has modernised his outlook and thrown off the dogmatic religious shackles?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/trimble-says-daughter-s-same-sex-marriage-forced-him-to-change-view-1.3956543

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is your point here?
I would have as many criticisms of the RC. And I do criticise it here on Boards, all the time.

However the RC Church is a religion, the OO is a Protestant Political Organisation.

Totally different things.

Well we are in agreement then as I would have many criticisms of the OO
By the way I think the OO is described by its members as religious cultural and political. Mind you those three words could fit most churches to

endainoz

downcow wrote:

That’s a very strange response to my question. But in response to you. This year approx 250,000 out of about 700,000 unionist attended the twelfth. Can you identify and celebration anywhere in the world where a higher percentage of the population will attend ie more than 1 in 3?

'hey look at all the people that showed up, we are definitely not in decline!'

Sounds a bit like Donald's inauguration.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I would say the way it operates. The pomp, ceremony, discipline etc run by old men is alien to young people and youth culture. Hence the numbers are falling (although recently stabilised temporary) and young people are flocking to the loyalist bands in huge numbers. The big flute bands have extensive waiting lists to join and new bands are being formed.
If I was in the OO I would see that as the greatest challenge to the organisation ie to reform us structure etc. I won’t hold my breath but I guess it will happen slowly

I would say, that common to modern society, people are just NOT going to be controlled in that way anymore downcow. In that respect northern Ireland Unionism is way way behind every other modern society on these islands.

But as Trimble shows, it will get there, one way or another. Embrace the change or get left behind with falling numbers.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is time for Unionists crying 'but it's our culture' to take an unblinkered look at the south. A hard and honest look.

There they will see a 'culturally intact society' that has removed the toxic, archaic and restrictive influence of religious suprematism and control.

There is nothing to be afraid of, if you do this. And look around you, the fall in numbers willing to subscribe to organisations like the OO, shows you it is underway anyway.
Look at David Trimble, has he diminished as a person because he has modernised his outlook and thrown off the dogmatic religious shackles?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/trimble-says-daughter-s-same-sex-marriage-forced-him-to-change-view-1.3956543

I agree. Fair play to roi for the strides forward. It is an impressive change. Still some distance to go like most nations.
I would welcome the attitude of roi being shown in NI eg look at a catholic village like Rossnowlagh that welcomes the OO and enjoys the business they bring. Biggest day of the year I’m told.
One place roi still fall short is a little respect for their unionist friends in international all island sports eg rugby.
But Rome wasn’t built in a day. Well done for the moves made.

downcow

endainoz wrote: »

'hey look at all the people that showed up, we are definitely not in decline!'

Sounds a bit like Donald's inauguration.

I don’t know any other way to measure it. Do you? I know the gaa were getting concerned at numbers showing up for some of their games so they must see it as some sort of measure.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I would say, that common to modern society, people are just NOT going to be controlled in that way anymore downcow. In that respect northern Ireland Unionism is way way behind every other modern society on these islands.

But as Trimble shows, it will get there, one way or another. Embrace the change or get left behind with falling numbers.

That’s what I said.
Although now you are doing that trick again of assuming unionism is the OO.