The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I agree. Fair play to roi for the strides forward. It is an impressive change. Still some distance to go like most nations.
I would welcome the attitude of roi being shown in NI eg look at a catholic village like Rossnowlagh that welcomes the OO and enjoys the business they bring. Biggest day of the year I’m told.
One place roi still fall short is a little respect for their unionist friends in international all island sports eg rugby.
But Rome wasn’t built in a day. Well done for the moves made.

Great. You have been convinced.

So can you as a Unionist outline what needs to happen in the OO and in issues concerning parades in northern Ireland.
Then we can seek your opinion what can be done about the religious stranglehold part of Unionism wishes to maintain on society and people's rights.

endainoz

downcow wrote:

I don’t know any other way to measure it. Do you? I know the gaa were getting concerned at numbers showing up for some of their games so they must see it as some sort of measure.

To be fair GAA matches would be easier to measure due to tickets being counted. Not sure if it applies to the 12th? Maybe there is ticketed events? I'm not sure.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

That’s what I said.
Although now you are doing that trick again of assuming unionism is the OO.

Downcow,I wouldn't take too much notice, Its strange that an Irish citizen who despises everything British has unilaterally declared himself to be the font of all knowledge regarding NI,its people,traditions and culture-did you know he also has a crystal ball that can see into the future,especially good for letting the rest of us know what's going to happen in regards to a UI?

J Mysterio

While I wouldn't give DownCow the time of day as regards Brexit, I have to say fair play to him for engaging in an open and honest matter here.

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

That’s what I said.
Although now you are doing that trick again of assuming unionism is the OO.

That's how its perceived though. Unionists have continued to vote en masse for the DUP and have done nothing to challenge the perception that they are bigoted hardliners.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Downcow,I wouldn't take too much notice, Its strange that an Irish citizen who despises everything British has unilaterally declared himself to be the font of all knowledge regarding NI,its people,traditions and culture-did you know he also has a crystal ball that can see into the future,especially good for letting the rest of us know what's going to happen in regards to a UI?

I don't despise 'everything' British Rob.
And I don't post on stuff I haven't researched first.

If you want me to back up what i say, just ask.

downcow

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's how its perceived though. Unionists have continued to vote en masse for the DUP and have done nothing to challenge the perception that they are bigoted hardliners.

A mirror image of what nationalists are doing in voting en masse for Sinn Fein. Both a bit unfortunate but thats democracy and I'm not sure there is a better way

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Great. You have been convinced.

So can you as a Unionist outline what needs to happen in the OO and in issues concerning parades in northern Ireland.
Then we can seek your opinion what can be done about the religious stranglehold part of Unionism wishes to maintain on society and people's rights.

I can't honestly think of much more that could be done in relation to orange parades because i can't see much wrong with them.
I did ask a while ago if someone would identify issues with the twelfth parade in a simple bullet point manner. This may be very informative for me, but until that happens i can only assume all this implication going on is just bluster

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's how its perceived though. Unionists have continued to vote en masse for the DUP and have done nothing to challenge the perception that they are bigoted hardliners.

When they had one - EVERY single PM of northern Ireland was a member of the OO.

The OO's distinct manifesto was to influence the politics of northern Ireland and they did and still are. Not sure about Peter Robinson being a member but Ian Paisley was and Foster is a member.

Robinson got rapped over the knuckles several times for doing things the Order thought were wrong and traitorous.

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

A mirror image of what nationalists are doing in voting en masse for Sinn Fein. Both a bit unfortunate but thats democracy and I'm not sure there is a better way

We're not talking about nationalists, we're talking about unionists.

I'm all for people making democratic choices but party of democracy is the freedom to criticize said choices.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't despise 'everything' British Rob.
And I don't post on stuff I haven't researched first.

If you want me to back up what i say, just ask.

So Francie. i decided i would take up your offer of asking you for evidence on some of your false statements and so I'd watch your upcomming posts. I hadn't long to wait lol .
This is from your very next post
"The OO's distinct manifesto was to influence the politics of northern Ireland and they did and still are. Not sure about Peter Robinson being a member but Ian Paisley was and Foster is a member"

I wouldn't waste too much time looking if i was you as every dog in the street up here knows it more of your nonsense

downcow

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We're not talking about nationalists, we're talking about unionists.

I'm all for people making democratic choices but party of democracy is the freedom to criticize said choices.

Yeah agreed. My point is that its chicken and egg. While nationalists vote for the bigotted hardliners of Sinn fein its likely to be replicated by unionists and vice versa. A difficult cycle to break

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So Francie. i decided i would take up your offer of asking you for evidence on some of your false statements and so I'd watch your upcomming posts. I hadn't long to wait lol .
This is from your very next post
"The OO's distinct manifesto was to influence the politics of northern Ireland and they did and still are. Not sure about Peter Robinson being a member but Ian Paisley was and Foster is a member"

I wouldn't waste too much time looking if i was you as every dog in the street up here knows it more of your nonsense

What nonsense?

Paisley was a member of the OO and left to form an even more archaic concentrated version of it, The Independent Orange Order.

As far as I can find out Foster is a member too as per this:

In May 2018, she announced she would be leading an Orange Order march in Fife, Scotland. As a committed member of the Order, this was a reason behind the original defection from the UUP ten years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlene_Foster

Happy to withdraw the claim if you can show different.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What nonsense?

Paisley was a member of the OO and left to form an even more archaic concentrated version of it, The Independent Orange Order.

As far as I can find out Foster is a member too as per this:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlene_Foster

Happy to withdraw the claim if you can show different.

I thought your point was that you would provide evidence. So i would like evidence that Paisley was in the Orange Order and Arlene is currently in the OO. That was what you said wasn't it?

Now i don't want you PC to go on fire with google searches, but now your at it I would like some evidence of you latest false claim above that Ian Paisley formed the Independent OO - In my reckoning that would meant he was about 128 years old when he died - he always did think he was one of those old testament prophets.

You see Francie the problem is people like you are feeding nationalist full of inaccurate nonsense about unionists and if you are challenged then the challenger is often removed. Fair play to the mods on here who are allowing 'facts' to be challenged

Seanachai

I'd say they 'marry close', unless they're mating with their counterparts back in Scotland or Kentucky maybe? ( no offence to Kentuckians)

cgcsb

downcow wrote: »

And I agree to some extent with what you say in that parading is a huge part of unionist culture evident in 3,000 plus per year. Our cultures are not symmetrical which leads to this huge misunderstanding. Celtic music and gaa are much bigger in Irish culture and while significant in unionist culture are much smaller.

There isn't a misunderstanding. It's quite evident that unionist 'culture' is simply a primitive one. There's no comparing the two.

downcow wrote: »

The difference is that unionists are not fixated with putting Irish culture under a microscope with the intention of putting it down.

No they don't use a microscope, they use kerosene.

downcow wrote: »

We have ira songs on gaa team buses. Wolfe tonnes appearing at gaa clubs. Irish flag flying at NI gaa grounds etc etc.

None of those things are sectarian though, and thy are part of Irish culture.

downcow wrote: »

Unionist in the main could care less about this stuff. And Issues of these in unionist sporting activities are rare

You play GSTQ at IFA matches and throw flags up all over the place.

cgcsb

downcow wrote: »

That’s a very strange response to my question. But in response to you. This year approx 250,000 out of about 700,000 unionist attended the twelfth. Can you identify and celebration anywhere in the world where a higher percentage of the population will attend ie more than 1 in 3?

2,000,000 turned out for Paddies day in 2019 in the ROI. i.e. greater tha all of NI's population.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I thought your point was that you would provide evidence. So i would like evidence that Paisley was in the Orange Order and Arlene is currently in the OO. That was what you said wasn't it?

Now i don't want you PC to go on fire with google searches, but now your at it I would like some evidence of you latest false claim above that Ian Paisley formed the Independent OO - In my reckoning that would meant he was about 128 years old when he died - he always did think he was one of those old testament prophets.

You see Francie the problem is people like you are feeding nationalist full of inaccurate nonsense about unionists and if you are challenged then the challenger is often removed. Fair play to the mods on here who are allowing 'facts' to be challenged

Ian Paisley WAS (read what I said) in the OO and left after a Grand Master attended an RC funeral and founded The Independent Orange Order. (apologies, you are correct on that, he didn't found it)

8. Ian Paisley was a former member of the Orange Institution and addressed the Independent Orange Order ever 12th July. This association led Mr. Paisley to play a rule in the 1995 Drumcree conflict over Orange Order marches in Portadown.

I have already supplied a link that calls Arlene a 'committed member of the Order'.
If you can dispute that, by all means do so.

cgcsb

downcow wrote: »

I would say the way it operates. The pomp, ceremony, discipline etc run by old men is alien to young people and youth culture.

discipline? were the members spitting and assaulting police officers and showing off their neck tatoos disciplined?

cgcsb

downcow wrote: »

A mirror image of what nationalists are doing in voting en masse for Sinn Fein. Both a bit unfortunate but thats democracy and I'm not sure there is a better way

Again comparing the DUP/UUP/TUV to SF is the type of false equivalence unionists seem to get off on spouting. How can you compare the two with a straight face? I've no time for SF, certainly they are economic illiterates but none of them are saying the world is 4,000 years old and condemning homosexuality and agitating for Brexit to happen. In order to get an equivalent nationalist party to compare against, you'd need a time machine.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ian Paisley WAS (read what I said) in the OO and left after a Grand Master attended an RC funeral and founded The Independent Orange Order. (apologies, you are correct on that, he didn't found it)
.

Firstly i appreciate the acceptance that a fact of yours was incorrect - It takes some guts to admit you were wrong. Thank you.

So where is the clipping blow from (unusual for you who usually posts links) - I will be surprised if Paisley was in the OO

Quote:
8. Ian Paisley was a former member of the Orange Institution and addressed the Independent Orange Order ever 12th July. This association led Mr. Paisley to play a rule in the 1995 Drumcree conflict over Orange Order marches in Portadown.

downcow

Seanachai wrote: »

I'd say they 'marry close', unless they're mating with their counterparts back in Scotland or Kentucky maybe? ( no offence to Kentuckians)

Have you strayed off a nature thread - If not then it is pretty offensive stuff but does highlight bigotry and save me have to demonstrate it to people

downcow

cgcsb wrote: »

Again comparing the DUP/UUP/TUV to SF is the type of false equivalence unionists seem to get off on spouting. How can you compare the two with a straight face? I've no time for SF, certainly they are economic illiterates but none of them are saying the world is 4,000 years old and condemning homosexuality and agitating for Brexit to happen. In order to get an equivalent nationalist party to compare against, you'd need a time machine.

You do know that SF were the most anti EU party in NI up until fairly recently and DUP took their clothes on that one.

I completely agree with you comment on their attitude to homosexuality - disgraceful

A bit pompous of you to tell people they can't encourage Brexit - you may disagree but it is a legitimate stance

and you are correct - I struggled to compare SF to the main unionist parties for very obvious reasons that i think you can guess but i don't want to go way off thread

downcow

cgcsb wrote: »

2,000,000 turned out for Paddies day in 2019 in the ROI. i.e. greater tha all of NI's population.

any chance of providing a little evidence that 2 million attended st pat parades in roi - I'll hand it to you that shows a real love for a culture - if accurate

downcow

cgcsb wrote: »

discipline? were the members spitting and assaulting police officers and showing off their neck tatoos disciplined?

whats this stuff about neck tattoos?

cgcsb

downcow wrote: »

A bit pompous of you to tell people they can't encourage Brexit - you may disagree but it is a legitimate stance

Anyone who thinks that Brexit can be, in any way, positive for NI at this point in the game is either lying or stupid. Supporting Brexit in NI is as irrational as opposing homosexuality.

armaghlad

downcow wrote: »

I can't honestly think of much more that could be done in relation to orange parades because i can't see much wrong with them.
I did ask a while ago if someone would identify issues with the twelfth parade in a simple bullet point manner. This may be very informative for me, but until that happens i can only assume all this implication going on is just bluster

Here’s my two cents:
- I live in a town where according to the 2011 census *at least* 62% of the population cannot even become a member of the OO institution ie are Catholic or from a Catholic background. It is safe to assume then, that the majority of my town do not support Loyalist parades. It’s ok though, I still support their right to march. It’s their town too after all.
- Every summer at the beginning of July, a UVF-aligned flute band (who regularly parade with the local lodges and includes dual members) will creep out under the cover of darkness and, under the watchful eye of the PSNI, erect copious amounts of flags, bunting etc. These range from Union flags and NI flags on lampposts, Israel flags, paramilitary flags and flags and banners showing support for the bloodthirsty parachute regiment and suspected mass murderer known as Soldier F. There’s also an impressive Orange arch which I have little issue with. I feel this is incredibly antagonistic towards the silent majority in my town however because it has been tolerated/accommodated for so long it is somehow still seen as acceptable by the OO.
- The main 12th July demonstration for my County was held in a different town 15 miles away and it is my understanding that each town hosts the main county demonstration every 11 years. Why the need then to “decorate” my town so thoroughly when it isn’t hosting the main demonstration? Why feel the need to erect so many flags and offensive banners, when nearby “unionist” towns have nowhere near as many? Can the OO not call out this intolerance, they seem quite happy to parade under these offensive trappings.
- Why can’t you be like Crossgar, County Down. They have the village kitted out in red, white and blue for their 12th parade. By sunrise the next morning it is all removed. Why can’t this level of respect be shown?
Before anyone points out to me the difference between bands and the OO, I am well aware of the distinction. The OO however wield significant influence on these bands, after all it is they who invite them to parade at Orange marches.

cgcsb

downcow wrote: »

any chance of providing a little evidence that 2 million attended st pat parades in roi - I'll hand it to you that shows a real love for a culture - if accurate

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/st-patricks-day-2019-some-two-million-revellers-take-to-the-streets-across-the-country-37923135.html

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

Firstly i appreciate the acceptance that a fact of yours was incorrect - It takes some guts to admit you were wrong. Thank you.

So where is the clipping blow from (unusual for you who usually posts links) - I will be surprised if Paisley was in the OO

Quote:
8. Ian Paisley was a former member of the Orange Institution and addressed the Independent Orange Order ever 12th July. This association led Mr. Paisley to play a rule in the 1995 Drumcree conflict over Orange Order marches in Portadown.

Big Ian wasn't the only party leader connected to an orange order, independent or otherwise

https://www.google.com/search?q=ian+paisley+and+david+trimble&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOg73phrfjAhV8XRUIHYVLDvIQ_AUIECgB&biw=1600&bih=887#imgrc=7kN9YocIzT7YFM:

Sunny Disposition

Are Orange Order marches culture? I wouldn’t put Paddy’s Day parades as part of Irish Catholic culture really, nice way for kids to pass an hour or so, but you couldn’t say it’s an important part of culture.