Are we used to Dublin being a Kip?

El_Bee · 07-05-2019 3:15pm

Fieldog wrote: »

Smoking weed and not putting their rubbish in the bin?

Will somebody please think of the children?

In fairness, (not all) but some teenagers are dirty little scruffs with little or no respect for their area around them....

Here's the attitude right here, "ah sure it's just a bit of rubbish who cares?" and then people wonder why we are where we are.

Deebles McBeebles · 07-05-2019 3:15pm

Another case of the lack of personal responsibility. Adults with the moral compass of a 6 month old.

Hal3000 · 07-05-2019 3:16pm

El_Bee wrote: »

The council actually does come around and picks it up (when it's not being burned by feral children) but all that does it encourage others to make use of a free waste disposal service.

They pick up illegal dumping possibly, but they rarely clean the streets. Why can't we have street cleaners ? Why does Ireland always have to be different or a unique case, or we can't because of insurance. It's pathetic how this country has gone.

Deebles McBeebles · 07-05-2019 3:20pm

Hal3000 wrote: »

They pick up illegal dumping possibly, but they rarely clean the streets. Why can't we have street cleaners ? Why does Ireland always have to be different or a unique case, or we can't because of insurance. It's pathetic how this country has gone.

Not in Dublin but we have a couple of those street cleaner golf cart things. Far as I can see they are used for driving up and down one road once a month.

07-05-2019 3:21pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Does this happen in other countries? I don't know as I haven't lived there but I know I am very nervous at the train station after I go to the gym where I am often surrounded by teenagers smoking weed.

In every city in every country in the world, with the possible exception of Pyongyang and some Arab capitals, none of which we ought to try and emulate.

What's different here is our self criticism. I remember having a chat about this once with some French friends. Why, I wanted to know, can the French manage to be so pessimistic as a race, whilst avoiding the same kind of national self-flagellation as happens in Ireland. One suggestion was that for most European countries, national identity is deeply rooted in mythic heroism, for example the rebellions of 1789. Therefore, to criticise the country is to criticise its founding myth, and its ideals. To criticise France, in France, is not publicly acceptable.

In former colonies, perhaps we have inherited some kind of shame about our historical passivity, even cowardice, and such a shame translates into a national pastime of self-criticism.

That's my very dubious, armchair psychologist's appraisal anyway (and no, I ought not give up the day job).

jimgoose · 07-05-2019 3:22pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

...That's my very dubious, armchair psychologist's appraisal anyway (and no, I ought not give up the day job).

That's actually a nice little theory.

Hal3000 · 07-05-2019 3:28pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In every city in every country in the world, with the possible exception of Pyongyang and some Arab capitals, none of which we ought to try and emulate.

What's different here is our self criticism. I remember having a chat about this once with some French friends. Why, I wanted to know, can the French manage to be so pessimistic as a race, whilst avoiding the same kind of national self-flagellation as happens in Ireland. One suggestion was that for most European countries, national identity is deeply rooted in mythic heroism, for example the rebellions of 1789. Therefore, to criticise the country is to criticise its founding myth, and its ideals. To criticise France, in France, is not publicly acceptable.

In former colonies, perhaps we have inherited some kind of shame about our historical passivity, even cowardice, and such a shame translates into a national pastime of self-criticism.

That's my very dubious, armchair psychologist's appraisal anyway (and no, I ought not give up the day job).

Yeah bang on... Nothing to do with people's frustrations over the absolute scrotes floating about doing whatever they like, or a lack of a political party with any balls that's willing to tackle these issues...

jimgoose · 07-05-2019 3:32pm

Hal3000 wrote: »

Yeah bang on... Nothing to do with people's frustrations over the absolute scrotes floating about doing whatever they like, or a lack of a political party with any balls that's willing to tackle these issues...

We're actually very lucky here, because we have... the Civil War. Yes, that gift that keeps on giving. It enables us to have one great big Centre-Right political party that are able to convince themselves that they are two separate, completely different parties with totally diametrically opposed ideals. This has the fortunate side-effect of forcing them to scrabble rather hard to find actual differences between them which consist largely of nuance and squabbling over various budget overruns. The net overall effect of this is, over the long-term, a relatively peaceful and productive jurisdiction in which the loo-lahs are kept mainly on the outside licking the windows.

As an aside, I remember the so-called Rainbow Coalition in the mid-1990s, which saw Proinsias De Rossa like a pig in shit as Minister for Social Welfare in the middle of one of the most Blueshirt governments outside of wartime Italy. Where would you get it?? :pac:

KikiLaRue · 07-05-2019 3:47pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What's different here is our self criticism. I remember having a chat about this once with some French friends. Why, I wanted to know, can the French manage to be so pessimistic as a race, whilst avoiding the same kind of national self-flagellation as happens in Ireland. One suggestion was that for most European countries, national identity is deeply rooted in mythic heroism, for example the rebellions of 1789. Therefore, to criticise the country is to criticise its founding myth, and its ideals. To criticise France, in France, is not publicly acceptable.

I think les gilets jaunes would disagree with you there.

partyguinness · 07-05-2019 3:52pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Our Taoiseach is not Indian. He is from Ireland.

We were the last country in Europe to legalise mainstream access to abortion. We are perhaps the only country in Europe that still charges women for the contraceptive pill. Our divorce laws remain firmly Conservative.

Our economic model is decidedly Anglo Saxon, having never truly embraced continental social democracy. In a similar vein, we favour low taxation unlike most other EU states, and despite much domestic whimpering, are considered by the OECD to have a low-tax, low-welfare system of governance. We are socially and economically conservative relative to our neighbours.

People think that because they voted for Repeal and gay marriage the country has magically transformed itself. In fact, as Britain prepares to leave the EU, we are set to replace it as possibly the most conservative EU member state.

Seriously- please stop talking. You don't know what you are saying.

07-05-2019 3:53pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I think les gilets jaunes would disagree with you there.

They criticise French political leaders, but not the Constitution or even its institutions. Its a bizarre thing, and I'd be interested to know whether the same applies in other northern European countries.

Even among the most ardent of French left-wingers, they get a bit squirmy when you start to criticise French colonialism. And for God's sake don't mention the war.

partyguinness · 07-05-2019 3:54pm

jimgoose wrote: »

As an aside, I remember the so-called Rainbow Coalition in the mid-1990s, which saw Proinsias De Rossa like a pig in shit as Minister for Social Welfare in the middle of one of the most Blueshirt governments outside of wartime Italy. Where would you get it?? :pac:

Right so you are comparing the Rainbow government from 94-97 to Mussolini's fascist dictatorship. I also remember that Government- hell I voted them out in 97 but you Sir are talking ****.

"TAXIIIIII........"

jimgoose · 07-05-2019 3:54pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Seriously- please stop talking. You don't know what you are saying.

He's bang-on right, praise be. <Gives Blueshirt salute>

jimgoose · 07-05-2019 3:56pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Right so you are comparing the Rainbow government from 94-97 to Mussolini's fascist dictatorship. I also remember that Government- hell I voted them out in 97 but you Sir are talking ****.

"TAXIIIIII........"

Yes, obviously I said that the Rainbow Coalition was exactly like Mussolini's fascist dictatorship. Sure what else would I be saying? :pac:

partyguinness · 07-05-2019 3:59pm

jimgoose wrote: »

We're actually very lucky here, because we have... the Civil War. Yes, that gift that keeps on giving. It enables us to have one great big Centre-Right political party that are able to convince themselves that they are two separate, completely different parties with totally diametrically opposed ideals. This has the fortunate side-effect of forcing them to scrabble rather hard to find actual differences between them which consist largely of nuance and squabbling over various budget overruns. The net overall effect of this is, over the long-term, a relatively peaceful and productive jurisdiction in which the loo-lahs are kept mainly on the outside licking the windows.

:pac:

I agree with you on this. Eff all difference between FF and FG except maybe FF are that bit cuter and rougher around the edges.

James Brown · 07-05-2019 4:04pm

dreamliner wrote: »

Today I picked up a friend of mine who has travelled here from Israel on business for a few days. After stopping by his hotel we went out for coffee.

Whilst sitting having our coffee in town 5 young guys and girls started loitering outside and then just dumped all the food they were eating onto the ground including their packaging, it was quite disgusting if I'm honest. They were also smoking joints of weed.

What was most noticeable was our reactions, to me it was just some troublesome kids who are 2 a penny in this city and their behaviour wasn't anything i hadn't seen before. However for my friend it was very different, he could not believe what he had seen and held his eyes wide open in amazement. He couldn't believe what they had done, and not just that, but that nobody seemed to have batted an eyelid. Apparently such normalised anti social behaviour like that just doesn't exist in Israel and if someone did that, someone their senior would force them to clean up their miss, grab them by the ear if necessary. The fact they were smoking weed at what appeared to be 12 years of age finished it off for him, he couldn't understand how any society deems that normal. I just shrugged my shoulders ... i even remember a lad had to have alcohol pumped out his stomach in primary school cos he overdrank in a field one night, again nothing new for me.

Moving on then we were walking along the liffey and became the unwilling victims of random drunken abuse from a couple of junkies. My friend genuinely seemed scared and wanted to get the hell out of the situation, again anything they said just went in one ear and out the other for me, it's the same s***t i've heard them say to randomers since being a child in this city. He just isn't used to such situations in Israel and was adamant they would be approached by law enforcement if it occurred there.

Comparing the reactions of the 2 of us to both situations he witnessed on his very first day in this city, is it fair to say we as people born or living in Dublin for extensive periods of time have become used to such anti social behaviour and it become normalised, when it shouldn't be?

If armed forces were roaming the streets and everyone aged 18 had to sign up, I think we would have a different society. However, I don't think we need go that route or what's the point in a free society? We need more beat Garda who care. I've seen them turn a blind eye because they don't want the hassle. We need more visible beat coppers who do their job.

BeerWolf · 07-05-2019 4:09pm

Would be great if we were strict on littering like Singapore, with hefty fines.

suicide_circus · 07-05-2019 4:10pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Another case of the lack of personal responsibility. Adults with the moral compass of a 6 month old.

its difficult to develop a sense of personal responsibility and a social conscience when you (or more to the point, your parents) have never worked for anything. When all you have is rights and entitlements, there is no opportunity to feel like you have a stake in the welfare of society or the streets we share.

Hal3000 · 07-05-2019 4:16pm

BeerWolf wrote: »

Would be great if we were strict on littering like Singapore, with hefty fines.

Yeah or how about putting repeat offenders to work picking up the litter... Will that ever happen ? No, they've bright futures you see!

cgcsb · 07-05-2019 4:16pm

completedit wrote: »

Dublin is like Vancouver(although Dublin city is a lot nicer) but they're both good cities because of their nature. Dublin isn't a spectacular looking city overall(although there are lovely parts) but it's a pretty good city. It could do with being bit more centralised though to keep it a bit more buzzing.

Not sure in what way you're comparing them? but Vancouver is a bit of a snooze fest if you ask me, unless you're into climbing mountains and stuff. Dublin is a lot livelier.

cgcsb · 07-05-2019 4:19pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Our Taoiseach is not Indian. He is from Ireland.

We were the last country in Europe to legalise mainstream access to abortion. We are perhaps the only country in Europe that still charges women for the contraceptive pill. Our divorce laws remain firmly Conservative.

Our economic model is decidedly Anglo Saxon, having never truly embraced continental social democracy. In a similar vein, we favour low taxation unlike most other EU states, and despite much domestic whimpering, are considered by the OECD to have a low-tax, low-welfare system of governance. We are socially and economically conservative relative to our neighbours.

People think that because they voted for Repeal and gay marriage the country has magically transformed itself. In fact, as Britain prepares to leave the EU, we are set to replace it as possibly the most conservative EU member state.

I'm sorry but, what? we have the most bloated welfare system in all of Europe, perhaps with the exception of Sweden.

Diceicle · 07-05-2019 4:20pm

Lots of places have their 'kippy' aspects, graffiti (tagging, more so) in Lisbon I thought was next level bad. The bombed-out, run downness of Budapest was bad in places - but in any place I've visited I've never been harassed like you are in Dublin if you're sitting out having a drink or a meal. Beggars etc in the European cities I've visited sit silently and never harass anyone.
Dublin has an air of menace at times where its like your day can go south for you if your catch the eye of the wrong person.
Its not a warzone, those other counties I've visited have their drab areas, however we seem to have more scummers per capita roaming the city centre than anywhere else I've been.

07-05-2019 4:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm sorry but, what? we have the most bloated welfare system in all of Europe, perhaps with the exception of Sweden.

We have a higher welfare expenditure per capita/GDP than a lot of other EU countries, but the vast bulk of that goes on pensions.

Out-of-work benefits are lower in Ireland than in most western European countries, where payments are made as a proportion of working income before reducing to the standard amount. The obvious exception to that is Britain.

But we have to look beyond mere welfare transfers, into things like housing and public healthcare. Housing policy is so under-resourced and focused on private enterprise that it hardly requires elaboration, and although healthcare is well funded, there is a great deal of direct transfer of public funds to the private sector; after all, Mary Harney made it clear that her preference was for Boston, not Berlin. And although our healthcare system isn't as explicitly liberal as that of the US, it is less founded on social solidarity than most European systems. We are closer to Boston than Berlin, even if we are stuck somewhere in the mid Atlantic without the proverbial paddle.

James Brown · 07-05-2019 4:33pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm sorry but, what? we have the most bloated welfare system in all of Europe, perhaps with the exception of Sweden.

That's because it makes the most money for those who matter.

I don't see how people fail to make the connection.

If I'm a landlord charging rent nobody can afford I need lower my rent or find a job.
In Ireland I can charge what I like and if people can't afford it the state will use tax payer money to make up the difference. So I make a killing.

Welfare/the state/tax payer is making profits for vulture funds and private landlords by supporting people to pay prices they can't afford on their own.
The market/economy is false. It's a ponzi scheme. When it crashes again it'll be our fault for going on holiday too much or some sh*te.

cgcsb · 07-05-2019 4:35pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Out-of-work benefits are lower in Ireland than in most western European countries, where payments are made as a proportion of working income before reducing to the standard amount. The obvious exception to that is Britain.

I think that's untrue, the dole in Spain, Portugal and Italy is certainly a lot stingier than it is here. Not sure about France but I'd say it's pretty dire.

There is even a movement in Ireland that wants to abolish direct provision and allow literally everyone in the world to turn up and claim the dole here. That's all kinds of looney left.

Spanish Eyes · 07-05-2019 4:39pm

To me it's the small broken window or graffiti syndrome. It is ignored by City Council and the problem grows out of all proportion and any attempts to sort it out are abandoned.. Yer man in New York with zero tolerance policy got that city sorted out and it is now very safe and cleaner than it ever was.

There's no doubt that the North City area (apart from Docklands) is really a total mess. Awful to look at all the way up to Parnell Street, east to Talbot Street and west down the North Quays and Benburb Street. So many sad looking derelict buildings, although Smithfield doesn't look too bad. The Blessington Basin is a hidden gem too.

The South side is fine, but has crowding problems on the pavements everywhere. I rarely go North of the Liffey now it is too depressing and a bit dodge TBH. Anyway parts of Dublin are just great, the Docklands, the canal basin at Bord Gais theatre, Merrion Square, Stephen's Green, all the little streets off Grafton Street, although I don't rate Grafton Street myself.

With a bit of vision all parts of the city could look good. Too many drug clinics around which attract a certain clientele. There's no easy way of saying it. And then they stray into the main streets and can cause trouble. Same in many cities, but other places seem to contain that kind of thing somehow. And I really don't care if anyone comes back at me with a bleeding heart excuse for these scumbags. They are not what we want in the main thoroughfares of our capital city. But no one will bite the bullet and move the clinics. Matter of fact the injection centre is to be at Merchant's Quay right beside Patricks Cathedral and opposite the Four Courts. Madness!

I love Dublin, but I'm afraid I don't like it too much at the moment. Who can help to solve this?

Sorry for the long post, but I am passionate about the City.

07-05-2019 4:47pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think that's untrue, the dole in Spain, Portugal and Italy is certainly a lot stingier than it is here. Not sure about France but I'd say it's pretty dire.

all of those countries have more generous welfare transfers than Ireland has, offering claimants a proportion of their wages in work for the first year or two of unemployment, before reducing to the basic rate.

I don't know about Spain and Portugal, but in France, welfare cheating is rife. And the system is very bad at detecting it. It isn't at all unusual for people to claim the Dole before going backpacking or even moving to another country and living off it until the authorities check up on you. And it doesn't have anything like the same social stigma that you'd get here.

Anyway, this is all a bit of a tangent. Welfare transfers for people out of work is a fairly tiny proportion of our welfare expenditure. Most of which is spent on buying elderly votes, or supporting the elderly out of a great sense of duty, whichever you prefer.

07-05-2019 4:52pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think that's untrue, the dole in Spain, Portugal and Italy is certainly a lot stingier than it is here. Not sure about France but I'd say it's pretty dire.

There is even a movement in Ireland that wants to abolish direct provision and allow literally everyone in the world to turn up and claim the dole here. That's all kinds of looney left.

In France you get between 52 and 75% of your last salary paid to you plus other benefits once you lose your job as the headline rate then reduces to around 300 euro a week for long term unemployed. They also have far more worker friendly laws than we do.

El_Bee · 07-05-2019 4:52pm

Diceicle wrote: »

Dublin has an air of menace at times where its like your day can go south for you if your catch the eye of the wrong person.
Its not a warzone, those other counties I've visited have their drab areas, however we seem to have more scummers per capita roaming the city centre than anywhere else I've been.

There's a miasma of badness that hangs over the place, bad is good, doing bad things is good, getting one over on people is good, **** the police and **** the system, but give us our benefits or there'll be murder. A broken society that somehow functions in spite of itself.

partyguinness · 07-05-2019 4:54pm

DubInMeath wrote: »

In France you get between 52 and 75% of your last salary paid to you plus other benefits once you lose your job as the headline rate then reduces to around 300 euro a week for long term unemployed. They also have far more worker friendly laws than we do.

It's the same in Holland for about a year then it tapers down.

Are we used to Dublin being a Kip?

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