ASTI ballot

coillsaille · 11-02-2019 10:00pm

According to the article:

"Many of the nurses in line for this salary increase would have been due increases under existing plans."

So if that's accurate surely there isn't a chance the members will accept it?

judeboy101 · 11-02-2019 10:02pm

coillsaille wrote: »

According to the article:

"Many of the nurses in line for this salary increase would have been due increases under existing plans."

So if that's accurate surely there isn't a chance the members will accept it?

Depends how union bosses spin it. One thing for sure, not one extra nurse will come home for this.

Benicetomonty · 12-02-2019 1:04pm

Surely the ASTI has to push for the restoration of increments now? Not only were the nurses not subjected to FEMPI, they went out on strike having voted to ACCEPT the PSSA months earlier! No matter what way you look at it, selective application of FEMPI must be utterly discriminatory and illegal? Not a word from ICTU yet, quelle surprise.

Sir123 · 12-02-2019 7:27pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Surely the ASTI has to push for the restoration of increments now? Not only were the nurses not subjected to FEMPI, they went out on strike having voted to ACCEPT the PSSA months earlier! No matter what way you look at it, selective application of FEMPI must be utterly discriminatory and illegal? Not a word from ICTU yet, quelle surprise.

Very true and I fully agree but don't you know government will only agree this with ASTI if they formally accept PSSA. However increment freeze happened under Lansdowne Road agreement so my own point is debatable. What we know is that the increment freeze is unfair and at this point unjust.

judeboy101 · 12-02-2019 7:33pm

Would it be fair to say that this agreement literally pulls the ladder up in any nurses overseas and newbie nurses? Seems to be the classic FFG tactic of divide and conquer.

Benicetomonty · 12-02-2019 7:52pm

Sir123 wrote: »

Very true and I fully agree but don't you know government will only agree this with ASTI if they formally accept PSSA. However increment freeze happened under Lansdowne Road agreement so my own point is debatable. What we know is that the increment freeze is unfair and at this point unjust.

Well, if the govt are open to that, we could hold a special convention to overturn the rejection and receive our retrospective increments. Then, like the nurses, we ignore the fact that we signed up and go on strike anyway without having to worry about FEMPI!

In all seriousness, I just cannot get over how little attention this is receiving. Have the ASTI even made a statement on this? Even given their support of the nurses plight, they must surely see the injustice here!

acequion · 12-02-2019 8:05pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Well, if the govt are open to that, we could hold a special convention to overturn the rejection and receive our retrospective increments. Then, like the nurses, we ignore the fact that we signed up and go on strike anyway without having to worry about FEMPI!

In all seriousness, I just cannot get over how little attention this is receiving. Have the ASTI even made a statement on this? Even given their support of the nurses plight, they must surely see the injustice here!

I would hope so. Something for members to kick up an almighty fuss about. But like everything, the fuss has to come from the ground up. And knowing teachers, will they even bother??

Sir123 · 12-02-2019 8:48pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Well, if the govt are open to that, we could hold a special convention to overturn the rejection and receive our retrospective increments. Then, like the nurses, we ignore the fact that we signed up and go on strike anyway without having to worry about FEMPI!

In all seriousness, I just cannot get over how little attention this is receiving. Have the ASTI even made a statement on this? Even given their support of the nurses plight, they must surely see the injustice here!

Fightback have just given a great analysis on FB/Twitter. Very interesting to highlight again how government were very quick to impose financial penalties on ASTI members even before industrial action began.

Benicetomonty · 12-02-2019 9:18pm

Sir123 wrote: »

Fightback have just given a great analysis on FB/Twitter. Very interesting to highlight again how government were very quick to impose financial penalties on ASTI members even before industrial action began.

Yeah, I read it there. Notable that asti received the news in October that the DES would not be back-paying for the frozen increments after saying theyd consider doing so if the PSSA was accepted. Nurses, on the other hand, arent even penalised to begin with. Almost laughable the contempt in which secondary teachers are held. How we put up with it, I do not know.

SligoBrewer · 12-02-2019 9:37pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Yeah, I read it there. Notable that asti received the news in October that the DES would not be back-paying for the frozen increments after saying theyd consider doing so if the PSSA was accepted. Nurses, on the other hand, arent even penalised to begin with. Almost laughable the contempt in which secondary teachers are held. How we put up with it, I do not know.

Because we are idiots.

evolving_doors · 12-02-2019 10:14pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Yeah, I read it there. Notable that asti received the news in October that the DES would not be back-paying for the frozen increments after saying theyd consider doing so if the PSSA was accepted. Nurses, on the other hand, arent even penalised to begin with. Almost laughable the contempt in which secondary teachers are held. How we put up with it, I do not know.

Interestingly Ingrid Miley pointed out the possible discrepancy just there on the 9 news now.

But don't worry, the govt. will wrap it up in some jiggery pokery. And anyway, the govt.s response is "ya well teacher unions whatcha going to do about it... lunch time strikes... LOL! "

Q1. Calculate the probability of strike action by a teachers union between the Mocks and State exams.

Answer: Zero

Inspector Coptoor · 12-02-2019 11:33pm

INTO really need to step up

Icsics · 12-02-2019 11:38pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

INTO really need to step up

I'd put money on them going into 'talks' before the Easter conference

wirelessdude01 · 13-02-2019 12:21am

Icsics wrote:

I'd put money on them going into 'talks' before the Easter conference

I would imagine them means all 3 teaching unions and I would imagine that is the exact scenario that will occur. Then we will get the same stunt as last year with a choreographed motion/speach from all 3 leaderships that gives the impression of a unified approach and then nothing after it.

deiseindublin · 13-02-2019 12:24am

Being discussed on Tonight show now, tomorrow's Indo has headline that teachers mulling strike.
(and pigs might fly.....).

wirelessdude01 · 13-02-2019 12:40am

deiseindublin wrote:

Being discussed on Tonight show now, tomorrow's Indo has headline that teachers mulling strike. (and pigs might fly.....).

Sure we've been 'mulling' for quite some time while the INTO 'consult' with their members.

coillsaille · 13-02-2019 9:47am

Looks like the guards are gearing up now, report in today's Irish Times.

This is from the end of the piece:

"A number of union leaders also believe the industrial peace clause in the public service accord is now dead as following the Government’s decision not to apply financial penalties to nurses for going on strike – as it did to second-level teachers in 2016 – it could never credible threaten to apply sanctions on any other group for breaching the accord."

SligoBrewer · 13-02-2019 12:22pm

coillsaille wrote: »

Looks like the guards are gearing up now, report in today's Irish Times.

This is from the end of the piece:

"A number of union leaders also believe the industrial peace clause in the public service accord is now dead as following the Government’s decision not to apply financial penalties to nurses for going on strike – as it did to second-level teachers in 2016 – it could never credible threaten to apply sanctions on any other group for breaching the accord."

3 years of incremental back pay gonna be sweet.

Benicetomonty · 13-02-2019 2:39pm

SligoBrewer wrote: »

3 years of incremental back pay gonna be sweet.

Back to non cooperation with CP hours and JCT next month at the latest until those increments are paid and brought back up to date. Simples.

judeboy101 · 13-02-2019 6:33pm

See inmo telling members to accept deal. Won't be 95% no this time.

wirelessdude01 · 13-02-2019 7:26pm

judeboy101 wrote:

See inmo telling members to accept deal. Won't be 95% no this time.

Was sure they would put it forward with no recommendation.

SleetAndSnow · 13-02-2019 7:31pm

Hey guys, not a teacher but sister is currently a newly qualified teacher (well two years ago but still only on maternity contracts in schools). I believe what's happening is shocking and something does need to happen. It's just public support is near 0. The journal (I know I know) posted an article about the TUI mulling over things and the majority of comments mention the usual "best paid.. summer holidays.. mid terms.." you know, the general unknowing people who don't know a lot of teachers don't get paid etc.

Do you think it's possible to increase public support or has the media just made it 0? Does public support even matter or is it more so disruption?

evolving_doors · 13-02-2019 8:14pm

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

Hey guys, not a teacher but sister is currently a newly qualified teacher (well two years ago but still only on maternity contracts in schools). I believe what's happening is shocking and something does need to happen. It's just public support is near 0. The journal (I know I know) posted an article about the TUI mulling over things and the majority of comments mention the usual "best paid.. summer holidays.. mid terms.." you know, the general unknowing people who don't know a lot of teachers don't get paid etc.

Do you think it's possible to increase public support or has the media just made it 0? Does public support even matter or is it more so disruption?

Teachers are just too appeasing. The last thing teachers need is the public supporting them on the picket. Disrupting is the only way forward.

acequion · 13-02-2019 8:23pm

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

Hey guys, not a teacher but sister is currently a newly qualified teacher (well two years ago but still only on maternity contracts in schools). I believe what's happening is shocking and something does need to happen. It's just public support is near 0. The journal (I know I know) posted an article about the TUI mulling over things and the majority of comments mention the usual "best paid.. summer holidays.. mid terms.." you know, the general unknowing people who don't know a lot of teachers don't get paid etc.

Do you think it's possible to increase public support or has the media just made it 0? Does public support even matter or is it more so disruption?

Good questions. I do think the media have indeed tried to make it 0. But though nurses have way more support I found there was a fair bit of support out there for pay equality and find it so frustrating that all teacher unions aren't making a huge fuss.

I also question the importance of public support. There's no doubt that it helps a lot but at the end of the day workers have to go for it. Anyone strike shy because they're afraid of the public just don't have the balls for any campaign.

coillsaille · 14-02-2019 9:27am

I just wish we (meaning our unions) would just forget about public support and not even consider it when deciding on actions to take. The media will always portray teachers in a negative light to a public that needs little encouragement to condemn our fight against inequality, deteriorating conditions, damaging reforms of the education system, etc.

Many Joe and Joan Public's out there will always be anti teacher. Some of them remember crappy, lazy, or just plain nasty teachers from their own school days and assume that teachers today are still the same, others just see the holidays and can't see past that.

Whatever the reasons it isn't going to change, so our focus when deciding on actions should be on disruption alone and not give a flying #*&% what the public or media think or say.

solerina · 14-02-2019 3:08pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

Being discussed on Tonight show now, tomorrow's Indo has headline that teachers mulling strike.
(and pigs might fly.....).

Yeah pigs would want to fly... it’s the TUI 😂😂😂 some chance, they always agree to every useless pay agreement !!!

Sir123 · 14-02-2019 8:26pm

INTO slams ECJ lol.... How about slamming the Irish Government who imposed this in the first place by actually balloting members for Industrial Action NOW... Wakey wakey INTO.. Need I say any more.

https://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/PressReleases/PressReleases2019/EuropeanCourtofJusticePayinequalityJudgement140219/Title,47602,en.php

Icsics · 14-02-2019 9:24pm

Sir123 wrote: »

INTO slams ECJ lol.... How about slamming the Irish Government who imposed this in the first place by actually balloting members for Industrial Action NOW... Wakey wakey INTO.. Need I say any more.

https://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/PressReleases/PressReleases2019/EuropeanCourtofJusticePayinequalityJudgement140219/Title,47602,en.php

They were trying to

doc_17 · 14-02-2019 9:35pm

solerina wrote: »

Yeah pigs would want to fly... it’s the TUI ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ some chance, they always agree to every useless pay agreement !!!

TUI, ASTI and INTO are all in the PSSA.

acequion · 16-02-2019 2:04pm

From what I hear anecdotally and read on the INMO facebook page there are big time divide and conquer strategies at play in the nurses' dispute resolution. And therefore, enough of the nurses might vote yes to get this over the line while many will be left with zero gains and very demoralised after 3 days of strike. Many are bitterly vowing to leave the union and many more are furious that their ballot won't be until March when momentum will certainly be much lessened,if not lost.

Sound familiar ASTI members? This FG govt seems to have mastered the knack of diffusing worker campaigns with sinister psychological tactics. In fact I heard that when they were "talking" to the nurses they behaved exactly as when "talking" to ASTI negotiators. They turned up late, hung about on their phones in the corridor while negotiators waited in the negotiating room. Like WTF??:eek:

It really would be a victory against such tactics if the nurses would stay united and vote no and I guess that remains to be seen. You would wonder though about their general secretary. Many on the facebook page are bitterly disappointed in her having fully trusted her. They're not as battle weary and cynical as we are in ASTI and are now learning the hard way that union leaders are at best suspect and at worst downright traitors. Maybe those who keep harping at ASTI failure in November 2016 might consider what a formidable machine ordinary union members are up against when they go down the risky road of industrial action and lay off with the grand old duke of York lecture.

However,the answer to it all really is quite simple. "United we stand, divided we fall". And that's why teachers always fall.

evolving_doors · 16-02-2019 8:21pm

acequion wrote: »

From what I hear anecdotally and read on the INMO facebook page there are big time divide and conquer strategies at play in the nurses' dispute resolution. And therefore, enough of the nurses might vote yes to get this over the line while many will be left with zero gains and very demoralised after 3 days of strike. Many are bitterly vowing to leave the union and many more are furious that their ballot won't be until March when momentum will certainly be much lessened,if not lost.

Sound familiar ASTI members? This FG govt seems to have mastered the knack of diffusing worker campaigns with sinister psychological tactics. In fact I heard that when they were "talking" to the nurses they behaved exactly as when "talking" to ASTI negotiators. They turned up late, hung about on their phones in the corridor while negotiators waited in the negotiating room. Like WTF??:eek:

It really would be a victory against such tactics if the nurses would stay united and vote no and I guess that remains to be seen. You would wonder though about their general secretary. Many on the facebook page are bitterly disappointed in her having fully trusted her. They're not as battle weary and cynical as we are in ASTI and are now learning the hard way that union leaders are at best suspect and at worst downright traitors. Maybe those who keep harping at ASTI failure in November 2016 might consider what a formidable machine ordinary union members are up against when they go down the risky road of industrial action and lay off with the grand old duke of York lecture.

However,the answer to it all really is quite simple. "United we stand, divided we fall". And that's why teachers always fall.

I feel like I've read the concluding chapter there.

acequion · 16-02-2019 10:46pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

I feel like I've read the concluding chapter there.

Maybe, evolving_doors, but we still have to keep fighting these injustices. Like everything the tide will turn and there will eventually be a zero tolerance for the double standards of trade union leaders.

16-02-2019 11:40pm

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

acequion · 17-02-2019 1:50am

salonfire wrote: »

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

Oh really! And are we supposed to believe that Fine Gael had nothing to do with it, being the overall bosses of the state and all that??

km79 · 17-02-2019 11:10am

salonfire wrote: »

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

Sure ..........

evolving_doors · 17-02-2019 12:49pm

salonfire wrote: »

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

2 sides have to be party to an agreement for it to be carried through.
Nurses on one side ..... and who's on the other?

Bobtheman · 17-02-2019 6:51pm

Ah the labour court. Funny how the ol'labour court comes up with handy agreements when Gov back to the wall with Nurses and Guards. Gives the Gov cover then to say twas the Labour court . Are these agreements binding? How come we never seem to get one??

The nurses might reject their deal.

wirelessdude01 · 17-02-2019 7:49pm

salonfire wrote:

Err, you do realize that it was the Labour Court that came up with the proposed agreement and not Fine Gael?

Remember the pay commission thingy. They went in with certain criteria from the government about what could and couldn't be found/said. Independent my ar$e

ethical · 18-02-2019 11:38am

I see the fat businessman newspaper is sh1t stirring again today saying teachng is wonderful,most employed of the graduates,most pay etc.of course they omitted the fact that a job is cut to shreds and that maybe up to 4 or 5 teachers "share" the 36k!

Also Paschal is coming out all scissors cutting to keep the heat off Leo and Simon and of course the easy target is teachers.......anyone for another increment freeze,a strike day with wages cut etc?

markodaly · 18-02-2019 12:11pm

Cant be all bad.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/arts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Farts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241

Graduate Teachers earn most according to the the IT.

Inspector Coptoor · 18-02-2019 12:23pm

A complete joke of an article.

You can’t compare a teacher to an Arts graduate.

Some Teachers ARE Arts graduates who have then gone on to do a Masters in Education at a cost of €12k to become teachers.
A basic Arts degree is a 3 year level 8 degree. Teachers now spend either 5 or 6 years in Higher Education depending on their subjects.

Teachers are double graduates with a level 8 and a Level 9 degree.

This article says teacher graduates have the highest starting salary at €38.7k but then goes on to say the MEDIAN salary for a Masters graduate is €40.8k.

All recent teacher graduates HAVE a masters.

Pathetic reporting.
Awful interpretation of data.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

SleetAndSnow · 18-02-2019 12:30pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

A complete joke of an article.

You can’t compare a teacher to an Arts graduate.

Some Teachers ARE Arts graduates who have then gone on to do a Masters in Education at a cost of €12k to become teachers.
A basic Arts degree is a 3 year level 8 degree. Teachers now spend either 5 or 6 years in Higher Education depending on their subjects.

Teachers are double graduates with a level 8 and a Level 9 degree.

This article says teacher graduates have the highest starting salary at €38.7k but then goes on to say the MEDIAN salary for a Masters graduate is €40.8k.

All recent teacher graduates HAVE a masters.

Pathetic reporting.
Awful interpretation of data.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

It's working though, unfortunately. Seen it posted on Reddit etc already and the bashing had already begun because the papers don't lie

markodaly · 18-02-2019 12:41pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

A complete joke of an article.

You can’t compare a teacher to an Arts graduate.

Some Teachers ARE Arts graduates who have then gone on to do a Masters in Education at a cost of €12k to become teachers.
A basic Arts degree is a 3 year level 8 degree. Teachers now spend either 5 or 6 years in Higher Education depending on their subjects.

Teachers are double graduates with a level 8 and a Level 9 degree.

This article says teacher graduates have the highest starting salary at €38.7k but then goes on to say the MEDIAN salary for a Masters graduate is €40.8k.

All recent teacher graduates HAVE a masters.

Pathetic reporting.
Awful interpretation of data.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Wouldnt most teachers be Arts graduates?
Are there statistics to show otherwise, you know for clarity and all.

The PME thing only came in 2012, so everyone before that has a 1 year H.Dip.

amacca · 18-02-2019 12:44pm

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

It's working though, unfortunately. Seen it posted on Reddit etc already and the bashing had already begun because the papers don't lie

The media in this country (and moreso in other countries) has a lot to answer for...............they used to serve an important function in the main when they had standards, were more independent and were rewarded properly as they moved up the ladder ...now that journalism etc has become a race to the bottom too standards have slipped to lowest common denominator stuff which even more sadly is swallowed by an increasing number of consumers of the utter bilge they pump out at times.

Its a pity its all about provoking outrage, fear, sowing division and selling you as much crap as possible all under the guise of reliable "fact checked" journalism ...when its anything but in some cases.

acequion · 18-02-2019 1:03pm

amacca wrote: »

The media in this country (and moreso in other countries) has a lot to answer for...............they used to serve an important function in the main when they had standards, were more independent and were rewarded properly as they moved up the ladder ...now that journalism etc has become a race to the bottom too standards have slipped to lowest common denominator stuff which even more sadly is swallowed by an increasing number of consumers of the utter bilge they pump out at times.

Its a pity its all about provoking outrage, fear, sowing division and selling you as much crap as possible all under the guise of reliable "fact checked" journalism ...when its anything but in some cases.

And the amount of people who consider what it says in the papers as gospel really is very scary. When I teach media to my students I really go all out to drill it into them that you have to take a lot of it with a pinch of salt and be prepared to read and listen to several versions of an issue before making up your mind.

Inspector Coptoor · 18-02-2019 1:06pm

markodaly wrote: »

Wouldnt most teachers be Arts graduates?
Are there statistics to show otherwise, you know for clarity and all.

The PME thing only came in 2012, so everyone before that has a 1 year H.Dip.

I’m not sure most teachers would be Arts graduates to be honest.

I’m a science graduate and did a HDip after that so 5 years in higher Education.
Don’t forget that a H Dip IS a level 9 qualification.

The article is talking about recent graduates.
For me, recent is 1-2 years therefore ALL teachers entering the workforce now are at Masters level and are starting on a salary below the median salary for a Masters graduate in the article YOU linked here.

SligoBrewer · 18-02-2019 1:13pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I’m not sure most teachers would be Arts graduates to be honest.

I’m a science graduate and did a HDip after that so 5 years in higher Education.
Don’t forget that a H Dip IS a level 9 qualification.

The article is talking about recent graduates.
For me, recent is 1-2 years therefore ALL teachers entering the workforce now are at Masters level and are starting on a salary below the median salary for a Masters graduate in the article YOU linked here.

PGPDE was a level 8 qualification.

Maximum teacher's starting salary is €36k, assuming full hours. Any mention of that in the Indo? Why/how are education graduates earning more?

Mardy Bum · 18-02-2019 1:14pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I’m not sure most teachers would be Arts graduates to be honest.

I’m a science graduate and did a HDip after that so 5 years in higher Education.
Don’t forget that a H Dip IS a level 9 qualification.

The article is talking about recent graduates.
For me, recent is 1-2 years therefore ALL teachers entering the workforce now are at Masters level and are starting on a salary below the median salary for a Masters graduate in the article YOU linked here.

H Dip is not a level 9. There were issues a few years ago when the QQI framework was introduced. Students were misled into thinking the PDE was a level 9 when it in fact was a level 8.

Very few NQT's start on a full salary so I am struggling to see how these stats were analysed.

SligoBrewer · 18-02-2019 1:19pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

H Dip is not a level 9. There were issues a few years ago when the QQI framework was introduced. Students were misled into thinking the PDE was a level 9 when it in fact was a level 8.

Very few NQT's start on a full salary so I am struggling to see how these stats were analysed.

The only way I can see this is if it's distorted by Education graduates either leaving the country or the profession.

Inspector Coptoor · 18-02-2019 1:31pm

Apologies as I thought it was a level 9.

All teachers are STILL double graduates with 2 x level 8 qualifications,

It’s a fair starting wage in my opinion IF teachers starting out could get a full time job

ASTI ballot

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