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SligoBrewer wrote: »
Utter contempt would be my feeling there. :mad:
Meanwhile thousands languish away on an inferior pay scale.0 -
It's sadly come to the point where teachers have few politicial allies0
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It's sadly come to the point where teachers have few politicial allies
FG were never friends of public servants and nowadays, seem to be the out and out enemy. FF were always better, but you'd wonder at the current crop. And Labour is a waste of space. And when you see the cosiness between unions and Labour, aka Nunan, you want to vomit. I witnessed it first hand myself at one of our conferences a few years back, our last general Secretary all sycophantic to our last Labour education minister. No wonder so many are switched off and how can you blame them!0 -
Unfortunately Teachers Unions are somewhat of a joke at the moment.Many comments here refer to the soft easy money available to representatives and yes a few do give a bad name to the profession!
A few years ago I had the (misfortunate) experience of representing my area at a teachers conference.I'm still traumatised 2 years later and have no plans to go back anytime soon.What I witnessed was like a new inexperienced teacher going into the worst ,rowdiest class in the college! There was no respect shown by the various speakers who were so full of listening to their own voice that they showed total disrespect to the Chair(who happened to be a lovely hard working individual I gathered from the more decent reps. there). To me the whole thing looked a total shambles.May I add that I have worked very hard locally for the teachers I represent over a good number of years and as others have said you do not make money from representing your colleagues,sometimes you are actually out of pocket or time poor as a result of meetings etc.
Before you ask,yes I got my travel expenses for going to Conference and B&B also but I worked damn hard there also.I was considered one of the minions (first time there and all that) so I was requested (actually commandeered ) to assist with this and that election,security etc which meant it was a busy few days. Yet there were many there who did not give a damn about who or what they were there to represent (sadly),of course they got the money for travel ,B&B etc and even managed a few "tours" and days out which I found shocking,immoral and lacking in class but they did not give a fcuk about anyone but themselves.............such selfish gits! They should not be let anywhere near a Union to represent anyone.........they were just there for the gravy train and Boy did the Bisto flow!
The other point I would like to make here is the sitting of Union Reps on Appeals Boards,what the fcuk do they do? I ve personal experience of this one as well as a number of stories from colleagues who were shat on.It looked for all intents and purposes that the "representative" and I use the term very loosely was there for expenses and did absolutely nothing to represent or fight for the candidates when the effin ETB did a botch job in " giving" A posts to a number of candidates for " achievements" in a particular school which were not befitting of the post description.(of course the Legal BigWig was there as well with his snout in the trough collecting easy money),but a box was ticked!
iTS WHAT EDUCATION IN iRELAND HAS BECOME NOWADAYS....BOX-TICKING.
The sad thing about all of this is the children suffer with lack of such basic necessities as Toilet paper, soap etc while the rotten to the core elite siphon off all they can..................................................................
and you know what no one will bother their balls to do anything about it because this country is a cesspit.It is high time there was a thorough investigation of Education in Ireland.ETB and CEIST have question to answer but no one will ask the questions.Where is the accountability?
The waste of taxpayers money on the Golden Circle,the untouchables is so sad to see.
A Maurice McCabe whistleblower needs to come forward now and clean up the mess........................................................I will not hold my breath!0 -
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Unfortunately Teachers Unions are somewhat of a joke at the moment.Many comments here refer to the soft easy money available to representatives and yes a few do give a bad name to the profession!
A few years ago I had the (misfortunate) experience of representing my area at a teachers conference.I'm still traumatised 2 years later and have no plans to go back anytime soon.What I witnessed was like a new inexperienced teacher going into the worst ,rowdiest class in the college! There was no respect shown by the various speakers who were so full of listening to their own voice that they showed total disrespect to the Chair(who happened to be a lovely hard working individual I gathered from the more decent reps. there). To me the whole thing looked a total shambles.May I add that I have worked very hard locally for the teachers I represent over a good number of years and as others have said you do not make money from representing your colleagues,sometimes you are actually out of pocket or time poor as a result of meetings etc.
Before you ask,yes I got my travel expenses for going to Conference and B&B also but I worked damn hard there also.I was considered one of the minions (first time there and all that) so I was requested (actually commandeered ) to assist with this and that election,security etc which meant it was a busy few days. Yet there were many there who did not give a damn about who or what they were there to represent (sadly),of course they got the money for travel ,B&B etc and even managed a few "tours" and days out which I found shocking,immoral and lacking in class but they did not give a fcuk about anyone but themselves.............such selfish gits! They should not be let anywhere near a Union to represent anyone.........they were just there for the gravy train and Boy did the Bisto flow!
The other point I would like to make here is the sitting of Union Reps on Appeals Boards,what the fcuk do they do? I ve personal experience of this one as well as a number of stories from colleagues who were shat on.It looked for all intents and purposes that the "representative" and I use the term very loosely was there for expenses and did absolutely nothing to represent or fight for the candidates when the effin ETB did a botch job in " giving" A posts to a number of candidates for " achievements" in a particular school which were not befitting of the post description.(of course the Legal BigWig was there as well with his snout in the trough collecting easy money),but a box was ticked!
iTS WHAT EDUCATION IN iRELAND HAS BECOME NOWADAYS....BOX-TICKING.
The sad thing about all of this is the children suffer with lack of such basic necessities as Toilet paper, soap etc while the rotten to the core elite siphon off all they can..................................................................
and you know what no one will bother their balls to do anything about it because this country is a cesspit.It is high time there was a thorough investigation of Education in Ireland.ETB and CEIST have question to answer but no one will ask the questions.Where is the accountability?
The waste of taxpayers money on the Golden Circle,the untouchables is so sad to see.
A Maurice McCabe whistleblower needs to come forward now and clean up the mess........................................................I will not hold my breath!
Ah here ethical I'm sorry but I find you're being a bit OTT. Maybe you're over sensitive?
There's absolutely nothing shocking, immoral or lacking in class about people going to a conference and getting a few freebies like a tour, a day out, a nice dinner or whatever. Calm down for god's sake!! People are human and like to get treated, actually feel valued and are more productive when treated and little things like the above to union members giving up their holidays to attend conferences is only proper order. So let's not get carried away.
As for being "commandered" when you arrive and expected to "assist with this and that" can you not just tell them to take a running jump! Yes, arrival at your first union conference is an experience. From the second you walk in the door you get waylaid by all sorts and canvassed by all sorts, heckling for votes. But who says you have to fit in with any of it? Because you don't. You stride straight in, neither looking left nor right and basically do your own thing, representing your own views and principles, plus whatever you've been tasked by your branch.
So let's not misrepresent it. Yes you do get the gravy trainers. But that's far from the whole story.0 -
Sleeper12 wrote:As Dilbert says it should be checked. Could be a loose wire, faulty switch or a faulty trip switch. All of these could be a fire hazard. If it was my house I'd have an electrician coming today just to be sureethical wrote:Unfortunately Teachers Unions are somewhat of a joke at the moment.Many comments here refer to the soft easy money available to representatives and yes a few do give a bad name to the profession! A few years ago I had the (misfortunate) experience of representing my area at a teachers conference.I'm still traumatised 2 years later and have no plans to go back anytime soon.What I witnessed was like a new inexperienced teacher going into the worst ,rowdiest class in the college! There was no respect shown by the various speakers who were so full of listening to their own voice that they showed total disrespect to the Chair(who happened to be a lovely hard working individual I gathered from the more decent reps. there). To me the whole thing looked a total shambles.May I add that I have worked very hard locally for the teachers I represent over a good number of years and as others have said you do not make money from representing your colleagues,sometimes you are actually out of pocket or time poor as a result of meetings etc. Before you ask,yes I got my travel expenses for going to Conference and B&B also but I worked damn hard there also.I was considered one of the minions (first time there and all that) so I was requested (actually commandeered ) to assist with this and that election,security etc which meant it was a busy few days. Yet there were many there who did not give a damn about who or what they were there to represent (sadly),of course they got the money for travel ,B&B etc and even managed a few "tours" and days out which I found shocking,immoral and lacking in class but they did not give a fcuk about anyone but themselves.............such selfish gits! They should not be let anywhere near a Union to represent anyone.........they were just there for the gravy train and Boy did the Bisto flow! The other point I would like to make here is the sitting of Union Reps on Appeals Boards,what the fcuk do they do? I ve personal experience of this one as well as a number of stories from colleagues who were shat on.It looked for all intents and purposes that the "representative" and I use the term very loosely was there for expenses and did absolutely nothing to represent or fight for the candidates when the effin ETB did a botch job in " giving" A posts to a number of candidates for " achievements" in a particular school which were not befitting of the post description.(of course the Legal BigWig was there as well with his snout in the trough collecting easy money),but a box was ticked! iTS WHAT EDUCATION IN iRELAND HAS BECOME NOWADAYS....BOX-TICKING.
The security comment made me laugh. What, you had to check that everyone had their laminate ID for voting purposes? Don't make me laugh.0 -
Union conferences are by and large a waste of time. Does not matter who is elected VP these days0
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Union conferences are by and large a waste of time. Does not matter who is elected VP these days
I don't think they're a waste of time. It's democracy in action if people would only realise that and use it. But most don't. Can't be arsed and yet are full of criticism towards the union and full of indignation when we get thrown under the bus.
You get the union, the politicians and the Govt you deserve.0 -
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It does, this years VP is next yrs President
What I mean is that SC must have a clear plan of action not like the last diaster. Without a clear plan and without ground support it doesn't matter who is President or vp.
The 1000 members who left last dispute should be a reminder that you have to have a clear plan otherwise chaos ensues
I have tuned out of Asti politics the last few years so no idea if SC has got it's act together0 -
FF introduced the pension levy, cut S&S, implemented pay cuts (twice), brought us CP hours, introduced the teaching council and inspectorate. They also introduced two-tier pay scales. I don’t know how anyone can say they are better than anything. Oh, and the USC and reduces tax credits. Yeah, they aren’t the worst...hmmmm0
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It's quite evident in staffrooms and between educators that enough is enough. Teachers are fed up in general and it's quite easy to point the finger at others when s*it has hit the fan literally.
We have a recruitment crisis that's getting very close to the disastrous UK system altogether. Wages are poor, especially for post 2011 teachers and morale is at an all time low with initiative this, initiative that and croke park hours coming out our ears.
With regards to the single pension scheme, don't get me started. We had a cornmarket rep in before Christmas who told us how crap of a pension we will received upon retirement if we go circa 60/65. Around 10k? I mean in all honesty, why are we being doubly screwed?
Unions are worried that young people aren't engaging. Convention is too long first of all, it must be reduced, no need for three days imo. Additionally, we need some backbone... As others have posted earlier, a strike is intended to last some time and not 2 days. We're in it to get something out of it. The fact is Irish people get bumps and breakouts the minute they hear they will be down a days pay. I mean no wonder the profession is in the state it's in. I mean let's have a look at ourselves for one moment.
Apologies for the rant but LPTs and teachers in general have had enough, myself included. We should be balloting members now and out on the picket line with nurses who have bravely announced another 2 additional days of action. C'mon ASTI, INTO, we have to get going on this.
Tbh, INTO won't move and nor will we on our own as CEC have dictated... same aul c*ap different day... it's like a slow moving, non powerful car that takes hours upon hours to get somewhere but breaks down on the way and never reaches its destination.0 -
FF introduced the pension levy, cut S&S, implemented pay cuts (twice), brought us CP hours, introduced the teaching council and inspectorate. They also introduced two-tier pay scales. I don’t know how anyone can say they are better than anything. Oh, and the USC and reduces tax credits. Yeah, they aren’t the worst...hmmmm
Yes but all that happened when the country went bankrupt and the public sector was the easiest target. Now I'm not for one second defending FF and haven't voted for them in years and actually only ever voted for them once or twice and no plans to vote for them anytime soon. But if you look back over the years you will see that in growth periods the public sector have done better under FF than FG.0 -
Yes but all that happened when the country went bankrupt and the public sector was the easiest target. Now I'm not for one second defending FF and haven't voted for them in years and actually only ever voted for them once or twice and no plans to vote for them anytime soon. But if you look back over the years you will see that in growth periods the public sector have done better under FF than FG.
It was the gross incompetence of FF that led to the country going to the wall, that’s the point. And then they make us suffer while they all retired in their early 50s on glorious pensions that the rest of us can only dream of.
I forgot to add the decimation of pensions for post 04 in my earlier list. That was the most horrendous case of PS workers pulling the ladder up after themselves.0 -
It's quite evident in staffrooms and between educators that enough is enough. Teachers are fed up in general and it's quite easy to point the finger at others when s*it has hit the fan literally.
We have a recruitment crisis that's getting very close to the disastrous UK system altogether. Wages are poor, especially for post 2011 teachers and morale is at an all time low with initiative this, initiative that and croke park hours coming out our ears.
With regards to the single pension scheme, don't get me started. We had a cornmarket rep in before Christmas who told us how crap of a pension we will received upon retirement if we go circa 60/65. Around 10k? I mean in all honesty, why are we being doubly screwed?
Unions are worried that young people aren't engaging. Convention is too long first of all, it must be reduced, no need for three days imo. Additionally, we need some backbone... As others have posted earlier, a strike is intended to last some time and not 2 days. We're in it to get something out of it. The fact is Irish people get bumps and breakouts the minute they hear they will be down a days pay. I mean no wonder the profession is in the state it's in. I mean let's have a look at ourselves for one moment.
Apologies for the rant but LPTs and teachers in general have had enough, myself included. We should be balloting members now and out on the picket line with nurses who have bravely announced another 2 additional days of action. C'mon ASTI, INTO, we have to get going on this.
Tbh, INTO won't move and nor will we on our own as CEC have dictated... same aul c*ap different day... it's like a slow moving, non powerful car that takes hours upon hours to get somewhere but breaks down on the way and never reaches its destination.
I can't argue with anything you say but a lot of problems for Irish teachers are common to all workers. We have had a housing crisis going back to the 1990s. Thus you could give teachers a common scale and they still would not get a mortgage. Though a lot of young teachers today expect to have a car,house and foreign holiday by time they are 28.
Childcare is another issue. Zaponne is pushing FG in right direction here. But it's still very high. The free year saved me 3k. .
Thus if this state sorted out two fundamental services then pay scales would not be such an issue
Though I find it hard to take those on lower pay scales that seriously when they left union in droves and won't turn up at branch meetings. Too busy growing beards and posting on Instagram I suppose or climbing over the bodies of senior colleagues to get promoted0 -
It was the gross incompetence of FF that led to the country going to the wall, that’s the point. And then they make us suffer while they all retired in their early 50s on glorious pensions that the rest of us can only dream of.
I forgot to add the decimation of pensions for post 04 in my earlier list. That was the most horrendous case of PS workers pulling the ladder up after themselves.
Hey relax! I'm not getting into any argument with you re what either FF or FG did or didn't do and we all know that FF presided over the crash.
Neither have a proud record of anything imo and are to all intents and purposes mirror images of each other and it's such a shame that there's little if any alternative when it comes to governing this little country.
But going on track record back through the decades, FF have been the lesser of the two evils for public servants.That's all I'm saying.0 -
I can't argue with anything you say but a lot of problems for Irish teachers are common to all workers. We have had a housing crisis going back to the 1990s. Thus you could give teachers a common scale and they still would not get a mortgage. Though a lot of young teachers today expect to have a car,house and foreign holiday by time they are 28.
Childcare is another issue. Zaponne is pushing FG in right direction here. But it's still very high. The free year saved me 3k. .
Thus if this state sorted out two fundamental services then pay scales would not be such an issue
Though I find it hard to take those on lower pay scales that seriously when they left union in droves and won't turn up at branch meetings. Too busy growing beards and posting on Instagram I suppose or climbing over the bodies of senior colleagues to get promoted
I do acknowledge the housing crisis but surely after 5-6 years of training and working for a good few years, one should be able to get on the property ladder or at least afford a holiday?, however this isn't possible as you said. Remember, new teachers take on average 6 years to qualify now with the PME and don't start teaching until 25 ish. The wages us LPTs are on definitely won't get us anything and I'd consider pre 2011 teachers to have some edge and to be quite lucky to have what they have right now.
The reason many young teachers don't turn up to branch meetings is because they feel they aren't being represented by the union. It bugs me big time when I turn up to those meetings and when pay equality comes up, senior members quickly jump to the we can't strike clause we'll get nowhere...... "why would you vote No to the LPT pay agreement" one teacher said to me. My response, "it does nothing for me, it ain't equality,", a glance of disgust received in my direction and those senior members were happy to be voting yes. However, if tables had turned and let's say for example their pensions were going to be cut and I agreed with this change, I'd be executed there and then, no word of a lie.
The majority of older long serving teachers won't strike, however some believe deeply in us and realise that two wrongs still make a wrong. The cornmarket rep even mentioned to me that it was the older teachers that allowed this mess to happen in the first place, stating "you can blame your pay and pension on them and their reluctance to strike and protect ye". When I heard outsiders like this talk to staff it really made me realise why no young LPT would want to attend a branch meeting. Asti were isolated hence why many left. If other teacher unions had been standing in solidarity nobody would be shifting unions.
To this day, the inaction by all teacher unions, especially into and tui heavily disgusts me. We need to act and stop talking as it's getting us nowhere. We're still in the same predicament since 2011/2012, nearly a decade later...absolutely shocking.0 -
I do acknowledge the housing crisis but surely after 5-6 years of training and working for a good few years, one should be able to get on the property ladder or at least afford a holiday?, however this isn't possible as you said. Remember, new teachers take on average 6 years to qualify now with the PME and don't start teaching until 25 ish. The wages us LPTs are on definitely won't get us anything and I'd consider pre 2011 teachers to have some edge and to be quite lucky they have what they have right now.
The reason many young teachers don't turn up to branch meetings is because they feel they aren't being represented by the union. It bugs me big time when I turn up to those meetings and when pay equality comes up, senior members quickly jump to the we can't strike clause we'll get nowhere...... "why would you vote No to the LPT pay agreement" one teacher said to me. My response, "it does nothing for me, it ain't equality,", a glance of disgust received in my direction and those senior members were happy to be voting yes. However, if tables had turned and let's say for example their pensions were going to be cut and I agreed with this change, I'd be executed there and then, no word of a lie.
The majority of older long serving teachers won't strike, however some believe deeply in us and realise that two wrongs still make a wrong. The cornmarket rep even mentioned to me that it was the older teachers that allowed this mess to happen in the first place, stating "you can blame your pay and pension on them and their reluctance to strike and protect ye". When I heard outsiders like this talk to staff it really made me realise why no young LPT would want to attend a branch meeting. Asti were isolated hence why many left. If other teacher unions had been standing in solidarity nobody would be shifting unions.
To this day, the inaction by all teacher unions, especially into and tui heavily disgusts me. We need to act and stop talking as it's getting us none. We're still in the same predicament since 2011/2012.
Number one - you are the union!!! You're happy enough to not attend and let others make decisions on YOUR behalf. It's a great attitude to have. If you feel outnumbered - bring a teacher friend or encourage your colleagues - don't sit in the staffroom crying about your circumstances when you're not prepared to do anything about it. As teachers retire and you age, who is going to take over? I'm sure you could handle four/five meetings a year to inform yourself and get your problems aired.
That cornmarket rep needs to be reported for peddling rubbish as he/she clearly does not know what he/she is talking about. You would also want to read up and inform yourself regarding the strike action two years ago. To top the strike action - what did the NQTs (in my school anyway) do? Head off to join TUI to get an increment and two year CID! If you also attended your branch meetings, you would hear of the members who are slithering back as they realise that ASTI are stronger than the roll-over TUI.0 -
I do acknowledge the housing crisis but surely after 5-6 years of training and working for a good few years, one should be able to get on the property ladder or at least afford a holiday?, however this isn't possible as you said. Remember, new teachers take on average 6 years to qualify now with the PME and don't start teaching until 25 ish. The wages us LPTs are on definitely won't get us anything and I'd consider pre 2011 teachers to have some edge and to be quite lucky to have what they have right now.
The reason many young teachers don't turn up to branch meetings is because they feel they aren't being represented by the union. It bugs me big time when I turn up to those meetings and when pay equality comes up, senior members quickly jump to the we can't strike clause we'll get nowhere...... "why would you vote No to the LPT pay agreement" one teacher said to me. My response, "it does nothing for me, it ain't equality,", a glance of disgust received in my direction and those senior members were happy to be voting yes. However, if tables had turned and let's say for example their pensions were going to be cut and I agreed with this change, I'd be executed there and then, no word of a lie.
The majority of older long serving teachers won't strike, however some believe deeply in us and realise that two wrongs still make a wrong. The cornmarket rep even mentioned to me that it was the older teachers that allowed this mess to happen in the first place, stating "you can blame your pay and pension on them and their reluctance to strike and protect ye". When I heard outsiders like this talk to staff it really made me realise why no young LPT would want to attend a branch meeting. Asti were isolated hence why many left. If other teacher unions had been standing in solidarity nobody would be shifting unions.
To this day, the inaction by all teacher unions, especially into and tui heavily disgusts me. We need to act and stop talking as it's getting us nowhere. We're still in the same predicament since 2011/2012, nearly a decade later...absolutely shocking.
Ah now Sir123 the idea of younger members feeling intimidated by the older ones or feeling thrown under a bus by them is no excuse WHATSOEVER for not jumping in and reclaiming their union. It really isn't. That's like kids at school saying it's all the teachers fault if they're not happy with their results.
There are a great many older teachers committed to the fight for pay equality seeing it as another wrong that will have to be set to rights. And there are a great many older teachers who are very aware of the tradition where the older have always fought the fight for those coming after them and who were helped in their day by their older collegues. And conversely there are a great many LPTs who just will not get involved.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Unfortunately there are too many me feiners around and there will be quite a few up close to retirement only minding their own corner and sounds like you've come across a few of those. Likewise, there are some excellent LPTs who will go all out to fight for their rights.
As I said before its split 50/50 between the fighters and the non and that is fairly evenly spread among all ages. Then you have the schools and branches which are conservative and the ones who are militant. I'm lucky to be in a very unionised school where the members will fight for their rights and my branch is good too. You may not be so lucky.
But stop claiming that the older teachers in general don't want to help the younger because on balance that is simply not true.0 -
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mtoutlemonde wrote: »Number one - you are the union!!! You're happy enough to not attend and let others make decisions on YOUR behalf. It's a great attitude to have. If you feel outnumbered - bring a teacher friend or encourage your colleagues - don't sit in the staffroom crying about your circumstances when you're not prepared to do anything about it. As teachers retire and you age, who is going to take over? I'm sure you could handle four/five meetings a year to inform yourself and get your problems aired.
That cornmarket rep needs to be reported for peddling rubbish as he/she clearly does not know what he/she is talking about. You would also want to read up and inform yourself regarding the strike action two years ago. To top the strike action - what did the NQTs (in my school anyway) do? Head off to join TUI to get an increment and two year CID! If you also attended your branch meetings, you would hear of the members who are slithering back as they realise that ASTI are stronger than the roll-over TUI.
Where did I mention I don't attend branch meetings? I actually do and have been for quite some time, even though LPTs in general do not attend these meetings. Yes you are right regarding we are the union, but then again, young members are not engaged because there is no fight in general among more senior and non LPT teachers. I take it you're not an LPT mtoutlemonde so aren't directly affected?
Regarding those jumping ship, yes that was wrong and I should have mentioned that in my last post but young LPTs are not to blame for their pay and pension issues.. it's very easy for those like yourself to point the finger there and to tell us to quit whinging over our affairs.
Also, in relation to those branch meetings you say I don't attend, we have not had a full return of the 1200 members we lost have we? No we haven't more like 100-200 but can't remember exact figure.
P.s. I know the cornmarket person wasn't telling the truth and I didn't believe them if that's any consolation.0 -
Ah now Sir123 the idea of younger members feeling intimidated by the older ones or feeling thrown under a bus by them is no excuse WHATSOEVER for not jumping in and reclaiming their union. It really isn't. That's like kids at school saying it's all the teachers fault if they're not happy with their results.
There are a great many older teachers committed to the fight for pay equality seeing it as another wrong that will have to be set to rights. And there are a great many older teachers who are very aware of the tradition where the older have always fought the fight for those coming after them and who were helped in their day by their older collegues. And conversely there are a great many LPTs who just will not get involved.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Unfortunately there are too many me feiners around and there will be quite a few up close to retirement only minding their own corner and sounds like you've come across a few of those. Likewise, there are some excellent LPTs who will go all out to fight for their rights.
As I said before its split 50/50 between the fighters and the non and that is fairly evenly spread among all ages. Then you have the schools and branches which are conservative and the ones who are militant. I'm lucky to be in a very unionised school where the members will fight for their rights and my branch is good too. You may not be so lucky.
But stop claiming that the older teachers in general don't want to help the younger because on balance that is simply not true.
I apologise if I made a generalisation regarding senior teachers not backing us, I've just had a bad experience the past few months. However, I did say that many senior teachers believe in us and I felt I hadn't generalised but realise now that it may have come across that way.I know you and others here believe in the cause and that empowers me to continue the fight for one common pay scale.
I do agree that the majority of young members are not involved nor want to be. I find myself in the minority and that doesn't seem like a good thing for the next 40 years of my profession when older teachers have retired and we're left with a population of members that never had any eagerness to get involved. I suppose it seems that my branch isn't very militant, the exact opposite perhaps. Your school sounds very involved which is great imo.
However, we must look at the reason as to why many LPts aren't involved and from personal experience it stems from the initial classification of being second class teacher which results in low morale and a lack of motivation.0 -
I apologise if I made a generalisation regarding senior teachers not backing us, I've just had a bad experience the past few months. However, I did say that many senior teachers believe in us and I felt I hadn't generalised but realise now that it may have come across that way.I know you and others here believe in the cause and that empowers me to continue the fight for one common pay scale.
I do agree that the majority of young members are not involved nor want to be. I find myself in the minority and that doesn't seem like a good thing for the next 40 years of my profession when older teachers have retired and we're left with a population of members that never had any eagerness to get involved. I suppose it seems that my branch isn't very militant, the exact opposite perhaps. Your school sounds very involved which is great imo.
However, we must look at the reason as to why many LPts aren't involved and from personal experience it stems from the initial classification of being second class teacher which results in low morale and a lack of motivation.
I know and I really do feel for ye. The two tier pay scale is such a glaring injustice that it beggars belief that it's allowed to continue. Only in Ireland.:rolleyes: You have to admire the French the way they mobilise for social justice. It's just so frustrating that INTO are sitting on their arses when they have the power to get this thing sorted.
Still, don't despair. We have to keep fighting. What will happen re the nurses will be make or break and could signal the end of these straitjacket agreements as we know them.0 -
I know and I really do feel for ye. The two tier pay scale is such a glaring injustice that it beggars belief that it's allowed to continue. Only in Ireland.:rolleyes: You have to admire the French the way they mobilise for social justice. It's just so frustrating that INTO are sitting on their arses when they have the power to get this thing sorted.
Still, don't despair. We have to keep fighting. What will happen re the nurses will be make or break and could signal the end of these straitjacket agreements as we know them.
It's all about public support, nurses have it, teachers don't, already Varadkar has said they aren't stopping increments (yet?), because they know it'd go down like a lead balloon, teachers were treated differently.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-regret-the-inconvenience-this-has-caused-patients-no-plans-to-withdraw-nurse-pay-increments-varadkar-says-37778267.html0 -
I would not use the French as a comparison. There is a real racist element in those protests.
I honestly dont think we are heading for strike. INTO wont get 66% vote and I have heard nothing from TUI. We wont go out on our own for a group that left in droves or doesnt want to go down the hall for a union meeting. It hurts me to say that but it's true0 -
deiseindublin wrote: »It's all about public support, nurses have it, teachers don't, already Varadkar has said they aren't stopping increments (yet?), because they know it'd go down like a lead balloon, teachers were treated differently.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-regret-the-inconvenience-this-has-caused-patients-no-plans-to-withdraw-nurse-pay-increments-varadkar-says-37778267.html
Firstly, no it's not about public support. Public support helps but if every group wait for public support to stage a strike then they'll be waiting. Look at the Luas drivers and Bus Eireann. They weren't exactly flavour of the month but that didn't stop them.
And saying that the nurses have it and the teachers don't is a black and white judgement akin to what you'd read in The Indo. Nurses have more support and probably a lot more support than teachers. But not everyone supports them.And I guarantee you less will if this escalates. And a hell of a lot of people actually do support pay equality. Did ye not get loads of supportive hoots when ye were on the picket line? Did nobody send ye down tea? Because we got loads of tea and sympathy.Teachers and pay equality have a lot more support than the Govt and media would like. But regardless, teachers absolutely should be striking for pay parity and they should be doing it now.I would not use the French as a comparison. There is a real racist element in those protests.
I think the French are a great example as a comparison. They have a long history of people power, worker solidarity and willingness to challenge authority. We Irish have a long history of subservience to authority. With a few exceptions like the PAYE marches of the 80's, Croke Park teacher rally in 1985 and more recently the grey brigade when they marched to keep their medical cards and the water protests. But of course you'll always get a lunatic fringe joining the bandwagon just as you did with the water protests and that's what we're seeing in France. A shame because these yobos give the genuine protesters a bad name. But I very much admire the French attitude, though at times they may take things too far and cripple the place with strikes. I only wish the Irish could adopt some of the spirit.0 -
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acequion wrote:Still, don't despair. We have to keep fighting. What will happen re the nurses will be make or break and could signal the end of these straitjacket agreements as we know them.
I think both of our unions are fence sitting to see what happens with the nurses.0 -
However, we must look at the reason as to why many LPts aren't involved and from personal experience it stems from the initial classification of being second class teacher which results in low morale and a lack of motivation.
I personally don't think thats it.....simply because in my time I didnt see much involvement from a large cohort that were not NQTs either (say 30/40 age group)
Complacency I think....say what you like about the older generation, more of them knew how to stand up for their rights/fight their corner imo
Im not blaming NQTs for not standing up by saying that either as they are caught between a rock and a hard place regarding securing a contract + the getting to be silly workloads that increase in direct proportion to poorly behaved students etc
What I think (and this may be controversial) is that the older generation had a greater proportion of people that knew hard times and knew you had to fight for your bone...they also had intuition that if you give an inch when it comes to hard fought working conditions, Govt side probably will take a mile...they were more united or at least there was a core there that insisted on a certain standard - that made them a force to be reckoned with and therefore not a fight worth fighting in some cases.
There are many more disparate groups now within the profession which have less in common and its a lot easier to pit those groupings against each other ...and its not just Govt side that practices that
Also......teachers portrayal in the media doesn't help etc etc0 -
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I personally don't think thats it.....simply because in my time I didnt see much involvement from a large cohort that were not NQTs either (say 30/40 age group)
Complacency I think....say what you like about the older generation, more of them knew how to stand up for their rights/fight their corner imo
Im not blaming NQTs for not standing up by saying that either as they are caught between a rock and a hard place regarding securing a contract + the getting to be silly workloads that increase in direct proportion to poorly behaved students etc
What I think (and this may be controversial) is that the older generation had a greater proportion of people that knew hard times and knew you had to fight for your bone...they also had intuition that if you give an inch when it comes to hard fought working conditions, Govt side probably will take a mile...they were more united or at least there was a core there that insisted on a certain standard - that made them a force to be reckoned with and therefore not a fight worth fighting in some cases.
There are many more disparate groups now within the profession which have less in common and its a lot easier to pit those groupings against each other ...and its not just Govt side that practices that
Also......teachers portrayal in the media doesn't help etc etc
I suppose my comment about the older generation has been taken out of context and I should have chosen my words more carefully as previously mentioned. I have great respect for longer serving senior teachers, however my bad experience was just with one or two said teachers and isn't by any means a majority. I know many long serving teachers near retirement that are shocked at what's happening and are fighting with us which is great.
In terms of older teachers being able to recognise harder times, that I agree with. I think today's generation is completely different hence a lack of motivation or willingness to fight ones corner. But like you said, we are between a rock and a hard place regarding contracts etc and are demotivated and disillusioned by everything that has happened.
We in ASTI are fundamentally split 50/50 when it comes to these things as acequion has mentioned previously. The number of LPTs that actually supported the latest agreement as well as middle aged and senior teachers is extremely shocking imo, but needless to say these are all generalisations as not everyone votes the same, regardless of age and length of service. Generalisations are therefore wrong and I realise that.
However, a prime example of this is blaming LPTs for jumping ship in 2016 to TUI. In reality, I have met many established teachers at inservices etc who jumped ship for that paultry increment in 2016/2017 so as to avoid fempi measures. I had also heard that many schools across that country had a complete change in union among all staff and not just LPTs alone.
The fact of the matter is yes, we as LPTs and younger teachers need to be more proactive, but with many teachers now working extra jobs after school it's sometimes hard for them to attend branch meetings even though I make it my business to. I'm not making excuses for them btw.
To cut a long emotional story short, we as professionals need to continue this fight, and many posters on here agree and make good comparisons to other countries that have a very limited to zero tolerance of bullying by government (shoutout to acequion).
I hope the nurses continue to strike and I hope we all get something out of it. Posters must think I'm very militant but all I'm looking for is to be treated the same and if that makes me somewhat militant then so be it. It's evident that we must try and gain some leverage hence a ballot of industrial action should now be called by both into and asti.0
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