Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

salmocab · 30-10-2020 10:03pm

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I think you miss the point. It has nothing got to do with who the players are. It has to do with what you want as a coach to stamp your authority. And Andy Farrell has shown nothing in this regard. And it's a right shame. It's an awful pity he couldn't be 'different'

But how? What could he do differently? He have 4 new caps last week will probably dish out a few more soon enough. You have out about the selection so what would you have done differently in selection?
Actually I’ve just realised your ouncer from the Connacht thread don’t worry about answering me.

WhoamI2022 · 30-10-2020 10:05pm

salmocab wrote: »

But how? What could he do differently? He have 4 new caps last week will probably dish out a few more soon enough. You have out about the selection so what would you have done differently in selection?

He should be "different"....you should be "different", I should be "different", the World should be "different".

30-10-2020 10:10pm

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

It's not that simple. The question is wrong in the first place. It's not about replacing Sexton, the right question is what do you want from this team. Do you want this Sexton/ murray combo or are you finally willing to say it offers nothing and it's time to move on. And then visualize other possibilities. And that's the sticking point. It has nothing got to do with Sexton or Murray but just someone who cannot see outside that box

But that's just not true

molloyjh · 30-10-2020 10:52pm

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I think you miss the point. It has nothing got to do with who the players are. It has to do with what you want as a coach to stamp your authority. And Andy Farrell has shown nothing in this regard. And it's a right shame. It's an awful pity he couldn't be 'different'

You realise that we have completely changed how we play the game, right? Like fundamentally changed it? Its also hilarious that you want to ignore the selection calls he has made around guys like Kelleher, Doris and Connors while also ignoring the lack of additional options in the areas you want to complain about.

Also, being different for the sake of being different is dumb. Farrell has identified how he wants to play the game and who he feels are best placed to deliver that. It has led to a completely different game plan and changes to selection. Thats exactly what he should be doing. Exactly.

kingofthekong · 30-10-2020 11:01pm

molloyjh wrote: »

You realise that we have completely changed how we play the game, right? Like fundamentally changed it? Its also hilarious that you want to ignore the selection calls he has made around guys like Kelleher, Doris and Connors while also ignoring the lack of additional options in the areas you want to complain about.

Also, being different for the sake of being different is dumb. Farrell has identified how he wants to play the game and who he feels are best placed to deliver that. It has led to a completely different game plan and changes to selection. Thats exactly what he should be doing. Exactly.

Kelleher is injured isnt he ?

molloyjh · 30-10-2020 11:10pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Kelleher is injured isnt he ?

Yeah, but he was brought into the 23 when fit in Feb and has been kept in the squad this month despite injury.

ElisaAtWar · 30-10-2020 11:36pm

molloyjh wrote: »

You realise that we have completely changed how we play the game, right? Like fundamentally changed it? Its also hilarious that you want to ignore the selection calls he has made around guys like Kelleher, Doris and Connors while also ignoring the lack of additional options in the areas you want to complain about.

Also, being different for the sake of being different is dumb. Farrell has identified how he wants to play the game and who he feels are best placed to deliver that. It has led to a completely different game plan and changes to selection. Thats exactly what he should be doing. Exactly.

I don't accept that argument for one second molloyjh. Anyway it's not about being different. It's clear what Andy Farrell wants to do which is a Joe schmidt replica of no change. And we will suffer for this perspective until we have someone brave enough who decides to change it

ElisaAtWar · 30-10-2020 11:39pm

My issue is not with any individual player

UAEguy2020 · 30-10-2020 11:40pm

The fact Elisa seriously thinks Andy Farrell is a replica of Joe shows that he/she already had his/her opinion made up before a ball was kicked.

ElisaAtWar · 30-10-2020 11:46pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The fact Elisa seriously thinks Andy Farrell is a replica of Joe shows that he/she already had his/her opinion made up before a ball was kicked.

But do you not see the ball is already kicked. And that's my point.

aloooof · 31-10-2020 12:09am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I don't accept that argument for one second molloyjh. Anyway it's not about being different. It's clear what Andy Farrell wants to do which is a Joe schmidt replica of no change. And we will suffer for this perspective until we have someone brave enough who decides to change it

Ya, sorry Elisa, this is nonsense.

We’ve seen a change in personnel.
A reduction on box kicks.
Am increase in offloads.
An increase in passes per phase.

All of this is quite a distinct change to what we saw under Joe. What you’re saying is just not based in reality.

molloyjh · 31-10-2020 12:41am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I don't accept that argument for one second molloyjh. Anyway it's not about being different. It's clear what Andy Farrell wants to do which is a Joe schmidt replica of no change. And we will suffer for this perspective until we have someone brave enough who decides to change it

Ah great. Another poster who can't elaborate on their point, moves the goalposts, refuses to engage in discussion (on a discussion forum, seriously whats the point of that) and regardless of very real holes being shown in their opinion is incapable changing.

I've said this before, but I'll never understand some peoples insistence on being so miserable about stuff. It must make enjoying anything so much more difficult. Why watch a sport if you can't enjoy it???

sydthebeat · 31-10-2020 12:42am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I don't accept that argument for one second molloyjh. Anyway it's not about being different. It's clear what Andy Farrell wants to do which is a Joe schmidt replica of no change. And we will suffer for this perspective until we have someone brave enough who decides to change it

Yeah....

Nope.

That's just a stupid post

molloyjh · 31-10-2020 1:08am

aloooof wrote: »

Ya, sorry Elisa, this is nonsense.

We’ve seen a change in personnel.
A reduction on box kicks.
Am increase in offloads.
An increase in passes per phase.

All of this is quite a distinct change to what we saw under Joe. What you’re saying is just not based in reality.

We've also moved away from a possession heavy game that looks to use incredible accuracy to wear teams down. Instead we are using width a lot more and a system that allows a lot more freedom for players to play what's in front of them. Thats as fundamental a change as we can get really.

realhorrorshow · 31-10-2020 1:11am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I don't accept that argument for one second molloyjh. Anyway it's not about being different. It's clear what Andy Farrell wants to do which is a Joe schmidt replica of no change. And we will suffer for this perspective until we have someone brave enough who decides to change it

Some good analysis on the changes Farrell has made here: https://youtu.be/xIskt2KKTEo

ElisaAtWar · 31-10-2020 1:11am

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah great. Another poster who can't elaborate on their point, moves the goalposts, refuses to engage in discussion (on a discussion forum, seriously whats the point of that) and regardless of very real holes being shown in their opinion is incapable changing.

I've said this before, but I'll never understand some peoples insistence on being so miserable about stuff. It must make enjoying anything so much more difficult. Why watch a sport if you can't enjoy it???

But I thought I had said something. And it is a forum and we are all allowed our opinions. What part of my opinion did you miss. You seem to believe me as a misery guts when you know we have all seen this before. How many more times do you need to be reminded before it hits home

molloyjh · 31-10-2020 1:12am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

My issue is not with any individual player

I dont think anyone has a clue what your issue actually is tbh. Its not exactly like you've maintained a consistent position or elaborated on anything. It's just more of the same even though its different. Its a disappointing selection even though you have no issues with any selection in particular. Its about the coach being too afraid to be different even though he has been.

molloyjh · 31-10-2020 1:14am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

But I thought I had said something. And it is a forum and we are all allowed our opinions. What part of my opinion did you miss. You seem to believe me as a misery guts when you know we have all seen this before. How many more times do you need to be reminded before it hits home

When did Joe last employ a 1-3-3-2 system?

aloooof · 31-10-2020 1:19am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

But I thought I had said something. And it is a forum and we are all allowed our opinions. What part of my opinion did you miss. You seem to believe me as a misery guts when you know we have all seen this before. How many more times do you need to be reminded before it hits home

You are allowed your own opinions, but you’re not allowed your own facts.

We have seen more passes per phases, more offloads, a change to personnel and a reduction in box kicks. All of this, by any of objective measure, is a change to how Joe played.

Again, what you’re saying is just not based in fact or reality.

thomond2006 · 31-10-2020 1:19am

molloyjh wrote: »

I dont think anyone has a clue what your issue actually is tbh. Its not exactly like you've maintained a consistent position or elaborated on anything. It's just more of the same even though its different. Its a disappointing selection even though you have no issues with any selection in particular. Its about the coach being too afraid to be different even though he has been.

I believe we have a term for this.

OUTRAGE

ElisaAtWar · 31-10-2020 1:25am

There is an outrage issue thomond. But I guess it needs to be played out in front of people's eyes before they can finally see it

aloooof · 31-10-2020 1:34am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

There is an outrage issue thomond. But I guess it needs to be played out in front of people's eyes before they can finally see it

I still haven’t seen you provide a single detail on what you think needs to change.

ElisaAtWar · 31-10-2020 1:59am

aloooof wrote: »

I still haven’t seen you provide a single detail on what you think needs to change.

If nothing else Conor Murray has to bite the bullet. Folks thought he was great against Italy. He hardly box kicked at all. But what folks missed is how slow his deliveries were never mind he wouldn't challenge an AIL backline these days. Did you notice the way JGP popped a ball behind the offensive line shortly after he came on. Murray has done nothing and will do nothing. And I hate saying that but he has clearly lost his confidence. So now I picked on a player and said he really isn't up to par. Hope that makes you feel better

31-10-2020 2:04am

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

If nothing else Conor Murray has to bite the bullet. Folks thought he was great against Italy. He hardly box kicked at all. But what folks missed is how slow his deliveries were never mind he wouldn't challenge an AIL backline these days. Did you notice the way JGP popped a ball behind the offensive line shortly after he came on. Murray has done nothing and will do nothing. And I hate saying that but he has clearly lost his confidence. So now I picked on a player and said he really isn't up to par. Hope that makes you feel better

So by nothing has changed do you mean that one player that you don't believe should be picked is being picked

Bazzo · 31-10-2020 2:15am

Dog Botherer wrote: »

our options at FB are either play a moderately experienced winger out of position, or play a FB with little to no international experience. not great, on balance.

Sexton is still better than Byrne, it’s a must win, play your best player. JGP has been excellent since the return, hard to argue with his spot. Marmion and Blade have also been good but Blade isn’t much more experienced than JGP at this level and Marmion was only called into the squad as injury cover so not surprising he isn’t involved really.

Marmion has been in the squad from the start, Cooney was called in as injury cover.

ElisaAtWar · 31-10-2020 2:52am

Bazzo wrote: »

Marmion has been in the squad from the start, Cooney was called in as injury cover.

Folks keep going on about international experience. And at the end of the day it has nothing got to do with that. It has to do with a bunch of players who are pulled together for a number of weeks each year and a coach has little to no options. But the coach has try some options. That's what makes one coach different to another. And that why farrell is just schmidt again. The inability to try that option

Dog Botherer · 31-10-2020 4:20am

Bazzo wrote: »

Marmion has been in the squad from the start, Cooney was called in as injury cover.

ah yeah my mistake.

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

Folks keep going on about international experience. And at the end of the day it has nothing got to do with that. It has to do with a bunch of players who are pulled together for a number of weeks each year and a coach has little to no options. But the coach has try some options. That's what makes one coach different to another. And that why farrell is just schmidt again. The inability to try that option

what if Marmion was just crap in training.

WhoamI2022 · 31-10-2020 8:27am

Ireland has had two head coach’s and a number of different coaching teams over the last few years. None of them seem convinced by Cooney and Marmion has only played when no choice.

Similar can be said for Ross Byrne as well

I think we have to assume these coach’s who are some of the best in the World know a thing or two about players. This would suggest Cooney and Marmion are just not good enough for international rugby.

Buer · 31-10-2020 9:12am

Ah. I see Ouncer is back!

Sabre0001 · 31-10-2020 9:31am

This French game will be a good indicator of if our overall game plan has changed - they didn't look good under the high ball against Wales and they're not a team to be throwing misplaced offloads around.

Think we'll see a lot more box kicks, willingness to slow the game down, and go through more phases, and pressure them into giving penalties. Maybe a hybrid of the Schmidt and Farrell approach depending on the situation.

shootermacg · 31-10-2020 9:37am

molloyjh wrote: »

I dont think anyone has a clue what your issue actually is tbh. Its not exactly like you've maintained a consistent position or elaborated on anything. It's just more of the same even though its different. Its a disappointing selection even though you have no issues with any selection in particular. Its about the coach being too afraid to be different even though he has been.

God, I remember the molloyjh that was preaching peace and love not so long ago......

Bazzo · 31-10-2020 9:42am

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Ireland has had two head coach’s and a number of different coaching teams over the last few years. None of them seem convinced by Cooney and Marmion has only played when no choice.

Similar can be said for Ross Byrne as well

I think we have to assume these coach’s who are some of the best in the World know a thing or two about players. This would suggest Cooney and Marmion are just not good enough for international rugby.

Except we have solid evidence that Marmion is good enough for international rugby because he's started and done well in 2 of the 3 toughest possible tests: England and New Zealand.

WhoamI2022 · 31-10-2020 10:06am

Bazzo wrote: »

Except we have solid evidence that Marmion is good enough for international rugby because he's started and done well in 2 of the 3 toughest possible tests: England and New Zealand.

I am talking about the coach’s, not the fans. Both Cooney and Marmion for whatever reason don’t seem to be a favourite of the coach’s. When they have a chance they drop them for whatever reason

Bazzo · 31-10-2020 10:17am

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

I am talking about the coach’s, not the fans. Both Cooney and Marmion for whatever reason don’t seem to be a favourite of the coach’s. When they have a chance they drop them for whatever reason

Well not really, you said that the coaches know what they're doing therefore "that suggests" Marmion and Cooney aren't good enough for international rugby. In Marmion's case there is very compelling stone cold evidence that he's "good enough" for international rugby. Schmidt also went through a fair patch of putting a lot of trust in him around the same time when he filled in on the wing a couple of times and did very well defensively.

WhoamI2022 · 31-10-2020 10:47am

Bazzo wrote: »

Well not really, you said that the coaches know what they're doing therefore "that suggests" Marmion and Cooney aren't good enough for international rugby. In Marmion's case there is very compelling stone cold evidence that he's "good enough" for international rugby. Schmidt also went through a fair patch of putting a lot of trust in him around the same time when he filled in on the wing a couple of times and did very well defensively.

If they are good enough then why are they dropped?

Schmidt played Marmion on the wing because he had no other option, hardly a glowing recommendation. During that period when did Marmoin start instead of Murray in any international? when Murray was fit

Bazzo · 31-10-2020 11:08am

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

If they are good enough then why are they dropped?

Schmidt played Marmion on the wing because he had no other option, hardly a glowing recommendation. During that period when did Marmoin start instead of Murray in any international? when Murray was fit

Ok so "not starting ahead of Murray" is the same as "not good enough for international rugby" now, is it?

Schmidt actually did literally give a glowing review of Marmion in one of the post match press conferences if you care to watch it back.

He was dropped... And now he's back in the squad, the coach just thinks JGP is a better bench option at the moment, which is fine. But statements that he's "not good enough" for international rugby are nonsense. We know he is, we have irrefutable proof.

And the conversation is going round in circles so I'll leave it at that, there's only so many ways you can phrase the same thing.

WhoamI2022 · 31-10-2020 11:17am

Bazzo wrote: »

Ok so "not starting ahead of Murray" is the same as "not good enough for international rugby" now, is it?

Schmidt actually did literally give a glowing review of Marmion in one of the post match press conferences if you care to watch it back.

He was dropped... And now he's back in the squad, the coach just thinks JGP is a better bench option at the moment, which is fine. But statements that he's "not good enough" for international rugby are nonsense. We know he is, we have irrefutable proof.

And the conversation is going round in circles so I'll leave it at that, there's only so many ways you can phrase the same thing.

^^
Let me refer to my original post "This would suggest Cooney and Marmion are just not good enough for international rugby"

I didn't say they are not good enough. But I guess you missed that part? Anyway you seem like someone who won't be happy till I say you are right, so you are right. Happy?

Skeetur · 31-10-2020 11:24am

JGP didn't get much attention after the game given how well the starting debutants played. But he was impressively sharp and worked hard.

He was hitting the breakdown to protect the ball when players were isolated, joining the maul for the try, increased the speed attack twofold, getting the ball wide fast without playing overly risky stuff. I know it was 10 mins against a defeated Italy but for a first international cap he was good.

For a bench option at the moment he's the better option tbh and given Marmion, Cooney, JGP are all close enough age wise and Murray likely not budging from starter I wouldn't be surprised to see him quickly get established as the clear second choice SH going forward.

salmocab · 31-10-2020 11:37am

Buer wrote: »

Ah. I see Ouncer is back!

Indeed it’s great news

WhoamI2022 · 31-10-2020 11:48am

Skeetur wrote: »

JGP didn't get much attention after the game given how well the starting debutants played. But he was impressively sharp and worked hard.

He was hitting the breakdown to protect the ball when players were isolated, joining the maul for the try, increased the speed attack twofold, getting the ball wide fast without playing overly risky stuff. I know it was 10 mins against a defeated Italy but for a first international cap he was good.

For a bench option at the moment he's the better option tbh and given Marmion, Cooney, JGP are all close enough age wise and Murray likely not budging from starter I wouldn't be surprised to see him quickly get established as the clear second choice SH going forward.

JGP is very snappy and decent option off the bench but really is holding a space warm for Casey etc I would suggest.

Question is does Murray see himsefl playing in next World Cup at 34/35? do the Irish management see him still playing?

kingofthekong · 31-10-2020 11:55am

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

JGP is very snappy and decent option off the bench but really is holding a space warm for Casey etc I would suggest.

Question is does Murray see himsefl playing in next World Cup at 34/35? do the Irish management see him still playing?

JGP is far better than just a place holder for Casey, Casey will have his work cut out for him getting ahead og JGP , he plays with a flow, speed and calmness that none of our other scrumhalfs have he has a great ability to keep the attack flowing and maintain momentum whereas Mcgrath is very stop start and hinders the momentum of our forward pack with his style

31-10-2020 12:17pm

Paul Smeenus · 31-10-2020 12:23pm

I think we should call up Paul Marshall.

Has to be better than listening to him "interview" people.

mfceiling · 31-10-2020 12:58pm

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

JGP is very snappy and decent option off the bench but really is holding a space warm for Casey etc I would suggest.

Question is does Murray see himsefl playing in next World Cup at 34/35? do the Irish management see him still playing?

This is the same Casey that has only played a handful of meaningful games for Munster and you want him straight into the Ireland squad?
That makes perfect sense.

D15er · 31-10-2020 1:18pm

Casey has six starts in the Pro14. Come on lads.

WhoamI2022 · 31-10-2020 1:20pm

mfceiling wrote: »

This is the same Casey that has only played a handful of meaningful games for Munster and you want him straight into the Ireland squad?
That makes perfect sense.

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

WhoamI2022 · 31-10-2020 1:26pm

I’m sure if I check posts after the World I can bet a lot of the people on here posted about problem with ireland was not bringing in new players, players been kept in squad based on name etc etc

Now any suggestion of promoting a player and its “oh he is too young”

The best experience Casey will get is playing a game with Sexton, not in the 6 nations, but in the next few weeks he should be given a shot, same as our options at 10 given a shot with Murray at 9

OldRio · 31-10-2020 1:32pm

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

Casey has played for France?

Downlinz · 31-10-2020 2:55pm

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

He was the starting 9 of the Pro 12 champions and had won Man of the match awards in the heineken cup. He was doing a bit more than playing a few middling league sides without their internationals.
He also moved ahead of Stringer and TOL at provincial level so it made his elevation to the international setup quite simple considering the other 2 were in the previous Six Nations squad.

I like Casey but him getting gametime with Munster is the best thing for his development right now.

thomond2006 · 31-10-2020 3:15pm

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

Antoine Dupont had played a lot prior to his first cap with France. It was his third season in the Top 14.

http://www.itsrugby.fr/joueurs/antoine-dupont-32472.html

Murray was fast-tracked because of TOL's freak injury on the sled and his loss of form. Plus it took Murray a while to really get going. I can remember various games in 2012 where his speed at the ruck was criticised. 2013 with the Lions was when he really blossomed.

Casey will be making his fourth straight start for Munster tomorrow. He's developing just fine.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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