Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

jacothelad · 04-02-2020 1:21pm

Clegg wrote: »

Ryan is a freak and Doris had one hell of an opening 4 minutes.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1224251174779609089?s=19

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Based on what?

The other options play slightly better in a totally different set up at a lower level?

I'm not saying they shouldn't be dropped but let's not get completely ahead of ourselves in the armchair coaching.

Can you say with absolute supreme confidence that playing Deegan and Cooney will guarantee we play better?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but these absolutes with no basis on fact are a bit much

Let's examine that claim.

Murray plays in the Pro 14 and European CC. Cooney plays in the Pro14 and European CC but somehow apparently at a mythical lower level. Cooney will be playing in the higher level Euro CC quarter final while Murray will be playing Zebre or the Kings. Recently Murray played against Cooney at Ravenhill. One scrum half looked like a quality international in that game and it wasn't Murray. Murray was pretty dull in that game. To say Cooney is playing 'slightly better' is completely wrong. He has been nominated for Euro. Player of the year. Murray has been nominated for Munster's bench. Murray was a great player and could be again but where is he.

Deegan isn't playing at a lower level than POM. See above. POM played reasonably well against Scotland but his form over the last long while has been erratically poor to average.

If Murray and POM play the games of their lives on Saturday I'll be delighted. What are the chances given the last year or so?

Jump_In_Jack · 04-02-2020 1:21pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why? What does it really matter?

You want to avoid a group with the 9th seed - being 9th seed obviously makes this impossible but as long as you're top 8 then you have a shot. All getting into the top 4 achieved for us last time was guaranteeing a QF against one of NZ or SA. Bit of a **** "prize".

There is a lot of luck in how the ranking and the draw end up for sure, so nothing can be guaranteed by your own ranking alone, but the chances are in your favour if you are in the top 4 as you should avoid 3 of the best teams in the group stage, which obviously helps with the chances of topping the group which means you should avoid the top 3 teams in the quarters as well.

It doesn't always work out that way, but it's your best chance of it working out favourably.

It's worth trying for it at least, so experimenting unnecessarily with selections now wouldn't be a great payoff by comparison with just picking the best team available right now to get the best results right now.

Kevski · 04-02-2020 1:23pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Doesn't he qualify after the November series?

Edit:
Can't find an exact date anywhere online.
He finished his season in 2017 with Tasman on 27th October 2017 in the Mitre 10.
Found a few reports that he arrived in Leinster camp the middle of November, so perhaps he could be eligible for the 21st November against Japan?
It depends when he started his residency.

There’s photos of him at Leinster training on 14th November 2017 so he would have started his residency before that - https://www.sportsfile.com/more-images/1711118/

Ireland play South Africa on 14th November 2020...

Clegg · 04-02-2020 1:34pm

The French seem to rate our performance a lot higher than we did. I wouldn't have any Irish tight five forwards in the team of the week. Furlong and Healy struggled at the scrum. Ryan was decent but was still part of a retreating pack. I agree on Stander and Larmour though.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1224642728916635648?s=19

arsebiscuits1 · 04-02-2020 1:35pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Let's examine that claim.

Murray plays in the Pro 14 and European CC. Cooney plays in the Pro14 and European CC but somehow apparently at a mythical lower level. Cooney will be playing in the higher level Euro CC quarter final while Murray will be playing Zebre or the Kings. Recently Murray played against Cooney at Ravenhill. One scrum half looked like a quality international in that game and it wasn't Murray. Murray was pretty dull in that game. To say Cooney is playing 'slightly better' is completely wrong. He has been nominated for Euro. Player of the year. Murray has been nominated for Munster's bench. Murray was a great player and could be again but where is he.

Deegan isn't playing at a lower level than POM. See above. POM played reasonably well against Scotland but his form over the last long while has been erratically poor to average.

If Murray and POM play the games of their lives on Saturday I'll be delighted. What are the chances given the last year or so?

So you can tell me with certainty that Cooney and Deegan will play better if they start this weekend?

jacothelad · 04-02-2020 1:38pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

So you can tell me with certainty that Cooney and Deegan will play better if they start this weekend?

They couldn't play any worse and onn the evidence of the last 18 months they are much more likely to produce better outcomes. Can you say that the incumbents will suddenly roll back the years and do what they have failed to do since 2018.

arsebiscuits1 · 04-02-2020 1:43pm

jacothelad wrote: »

They couldn't play any worse and onn the evidence of the last 18 months they are much more likely to produce better outcomes. Can you say that the incumbents will suddenly roll back the years and do what they have failed to do since 2018.

I wont be arguing unknown outcomes jaco.

The conservative selection is disappointing but understandable from the POV of risk mitigation. That's the only point I'm making.

kilns · 04-02-2020 1:47pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

So you can tell me with certainty that Cooney and Deegan will play better if they start this weekend?

Their form indicates they should and thats why you pick on form and not on reputation

kilns · 04-02-2020 1:52pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I wont be arguing unknown outcomes jaco.

The conservative selection is disappointing but understandable from the POV of risk mitigation. That's the only point I'm making.

Where is the risk mitigation playing players who evidently in the last 12 months have performed below the levels required of the international team

arsebiscuits1 · 04-02-2020 1:54pm

kilns wrote: »

Their form indicates they should and thats why you pick on form and not on reputation

This isn't really true though.

Rugby is a complex and dynamic sport. The coaching approaches are completely subjective also. As is what is considered to be form

Nothing is ever going to be as absolute as blindly picking on form. You pick on what is going to benefit your game plan.

Playing devils advocate here but...

Why exactly is Deegan considered to be in better form than POM? Because he's a visually better ball carrier? Why does that factor into something more than positive ruck involvements?

arsebiscuits1 · 04-02-2020 1:55pm

kilns wrote: »

Where is the risk mitigation playing players who evidently in the last 12 months have performed below the levels required of the international team

Presumably the risk mitigation is that even at a bare minimum, the coaching staff know exactly what they're going to get from them

prawnsambo · 04-02-2020 2:05pm

Clegg wrote: »

The French seem to rate our performance a lot higher than we did. I wouldn't have any Irish tight five forwards in the team of the week. Furlong and Healy struggled at the scrum. Ryan was decent but was still part of a retreating pack. I agree on Stander and Larmour though.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1224642728916635648?s=19

I'm going to give the scrums a free pass considering Matthieu Reynal didn't seem to have a clue about what was going on and by all accounts didn't really seem to take any input from his ARs either. Just as he left a free for all at the rucks, he also seemed to let the scrums become a free for all too. Multiple collapses that he either told the team in possession to play on from or just reset.

kilns · 04-02-2020 2:07pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

This isn't really true though.

Rugby is a complex and dynamic sport. The coaching approaches are completely subjective also. As is what is considered to be form

Nothing is ever going to be as absolute as blindly picking on form. You pick on what is going to benefit your game plan.

Playing devils advocate here but...

Why exactly is Deegan considered to be in better form than POM? Because he's a visually better ball carrier? Why does that factor into something more than positive ruck involvements?

You just answered your question, he is a better ball carrier, which the Irish back row badly need as it is effecting our attack and making us predictable. POM is non existent as a ball carrier and as an attacking threat full stop. It all depends what we want to do but Farrell indicated by picking Doris over POM he wanted an extra ball carrier and wanted to expand our attacking game. As good as POM has been for Ireland in the past, if we want to move our attacking game on he can not be part of it

kilns · 04-02-2020 2:08pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Presumably the risk mitigation is that even at a bare minimum, the coaching staff know exactly what they're going to get from them

a 6/10 performance from your 9 and zero threat in attack and low tackle count from your 6 but crossing your fingers that both somehow roll back the years

AdamD · 04-02-2020 2:10pm

The idea that its risky to try something new over something that is failing baffles me

Interested Observer · 04-02-2020 2:11pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Why exactly is Deegan considered to be in better form than POM? Because he's a visually better ball carrier? Why does that factor into something more than positive ruck involvements?

Visually? What does that mean exactly?

Interested Observer · 04-02-2020 2:13pm

kilns wrote: »

Where is the risk mitigation playing players who evidently in the last 12 months have performed below the levels required of the international team

I have yet to see anything close to a satisfactory answer to this.

arsebiscuits1 · 04-02-2020 2:17pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

I have yet to see anything close to a satisfactory answer to this.

We won on Saturday?:pac:

arsebiscuits1 · 04-02-2020 2:18pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

Visually? What does that mean exactly?

It means what it says.

You can see that Max Deegan is a better ball carrier than Peter O'Mahony.

He has a good leg drive and good footwork to find soft shoulders

arsebiscuits1 · 04-02-2020 2:20pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm going to give the scrums a free pass considering Matthieu Reynal didn't seem to have a clue about what was going on and by all accounts didn't really seem to take any input from his ARs either. Just as he left a free for all at the rucks, he also seemed to let the scrums become a free for all too. Multiple collapses that he either told the team in possession to play on from or just reset.

Furlong didn't actually creak on his side.

The Scots clearly targeted Healy though with a short bind and a step out on every scrum.

Probably could have problem solved more on his feet as the game went on but to be fair, normally a request to the ref to keep an eye out.

As you said, Reynal didn't seem interested.

I wouldn't have worries about Healy coming out second best against Wales this week

Former Former · 04-02-2020 2:24pm

kilns wrote: »

Where is the risk mitigation playing players who evidently in the last 12 months have performed below the levels required of the international team

Is there not some possibility that a different coach might do better with the same players though?

Otherwise, why would any team ever fire their coach?

kilns · 04-02-2020 2:29pm

Former Former wrote: »

Is there not some possibility that a different coach might do better with the same players though?

Otherwise, why would any team ever fire their coach?

That is true, unfortunately Saturday proved otherwise. Murray just seems to be at this level now and we may have to accept that. POM was always a passenger in attack so its not a form thing