Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

Tram and rail infrastructure costs, the rolling stock breaks even so capital is never repaid.

The Scandinavians fund the capital cost through high tax, for example on car sales. There's no rocket science needed, just the willingness to do it.

A luas line costing €800m would probably require c. €5k per new car, for a year, so you could do one such project a year or finance multiple projects over multiple years

Wont happen though.

Spotted this gem in the Galway City forum:

"It's a step backwards for society to be forced onto buses, closing streets etc when we have cars to bring us around"

It'd make you want to leave for a more intelligent society.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057527113&page=2

RainyDay wrote: »

Any links? Honestly, it sounds very unlikely. Things like this don't get done on a whim, and require a raft of approvals and involvement of other people, including local authorities (who are often controlled by parties other than govt parties).

Believe me, it's true. Noonan, since he took on the Finance port folio, has expedited quite a few things in the city. Some are good (although I agree that's not how things should happen), and others are terrible.

Here's a link. The city manager references Bord Failte as having faith in the proposal, but this is a nonsense. No evidence has been produced to support the claim. They're simply being used as a vehicle to channel the money. The local politicians have sanctioned the initial funding but it's controlled by a FG-FF pact so it's no surprise they went along with it.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/council-chief-defends-proposed-18m-footbridge-for-limerick-1-6805524

CiboC wrote: »

I use both too and I far prefer T1!

T2 is a shambles - you arrive in the middle and have to go downstairs to check in, queue in that ridiculous Aer Lingus conga line where everyone has to go regardless of when their flight is. Then you have to go back past where you came in so you can go upstairs again.

After security there is far too much space devoted to sucking money out of you instead of providing more boarding gates, and you still have to walk for ages to get to the gates anyway - which are all downstairs again.

I've travelled through airports all over the world and very few bounce you around like a yoyo the way T2 does....

What level you enter the T2 terminal building depends upon how you arrive.

Anyone using local public transport or car park buses will be dropped at check-in level so no problems there.

Also, suggesting that the retailers take up space for boarding gates is absurd. There is no space on the ramp for more aircraft stands - when they are added they will be on a new pier at the eastern side of the terminal.

Getting through the retail space in T2 is a breeze - you can easily ignore it, while you now have much greater exposure to it in T1 since the refurbishments were completed.

I'd also point out that said retail space is part of what pays for the airport in the first place - remember DAA self-finance.

zulutango wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but where I am based (Limerick City), Michael Noonan has allocated something like 18 million euro to build a footbridge that serves no function whatsoever. There's actually an existing footbridge less than 50 metres away. This is one of many vanity projects that happen around the State and that mean that key infrastructural projects don't happen. Personally I think it should be a national scandal but the press haven't cottoned on to it yet.

This is way off topic, but funnily enough, I was in Limerick doing the tourist thing over the Summer, and when walking from the river to St. John's castle, it seemed strange that there wasn't a direct route that brought you along the river. Dunno whether a bridge is the right answer, but it could be quite attractive.

Regarding that other off-topic discussion T1 vs T2, I think the nay-sayers, including Michael O'Leary, have been proved wrong with it. It has generated a lot of transit business that nobody really expected and it is hard to imagine how horrible it would be to have only T1 available today.

lxflyer wrote: »

What level you enter the T2 terminal building depends upon how you arrive.

Anyone using local public transport or car park buses will be dropped at check-in level so no problems there.

Also, suggesting that the retailers take up space for boarding gates is absurd. There is no space on the ramp for more aircraft stands - when they are added they will be on a new pier at the eastern side of the terminal.

Getting through the retail space in T2 is a breeze - you can easily ignore it, while you now have much greater exposure to it in T1 since the refurbishments were completed.

I'd also point out that said retail space is part of what pays for the airport in the first place - remember DAA self-finance.

Some people, especially Irish people, just like dark old fashioned spaces, have you ever seen the offerings of daft.ie?

plodder wrote:

This is way off topic, but funnily enough, I was in Limerick doing the tourist thing over the Summer, and when walking from the river to St. John's castle, it seemed strange that there wasn't a direct route that brought you along the river. Dunno whether a bridge is the right answer, but it could be quite attractive.

Ahem ... King John's Castle! He was the Norman king of England (aka Prince John in the Robin Hood fable) in 1197 when the castle was built. Ever so slightly off topic ..

lxflyer wrote: »

Heathrow's brand new terminals 2 and 5 certainly don't comply with that theory, nor do Barcelona, Madrid, Paris CDG, Schipol, Zurich, Gatwick, Frankfurt.

You must be using these airports in different space/time continuum to me as I regularly fly to and transit through CDG, Schipol and Frankfurt and have been bussed to and from the terminals on many occasions....

CiboC wrote: »

You must be using these airports in different space/time continuum to me as I regularly fly to and transit through CDG, Schipol and Frankfurt and have been bussed to and from the terminals on many occasions....

Indeed Cityjet use remote stands at CDG and always have. Frankfurt have a mix.

The vast majority of flights still go from connected stands.

But to suggest that major airports are suddenly now ditching airbridges is just pure nonsense.

Add to that the fact that right now T2 has enough stands - the only time it is full is for the first wave of morning flights.

In time the new east pier will be needed, but again the original reference to the retail element taking up too much space is pure nonsense in that context.

Another point with Dublin is the price. It is cheaper for me to drive into the city centre and park on a Saturday in Connolly station, than to take the train there.

NiallBoo wrote: »

I think I'd be safe to say that Dublin is better served airport wise than it is with other public transport (aside from getting to/from the bloody place). So maybe other things are more worthy of debate?

What projects/ideas for public transport in Dublin would people most like to see happening?

Apart from what is happening (Phoenix Park Tunnel, City Centre Re-signalling, 10 minute DART and LUAS cross-city):
- DART underground
- Four tracking Northern Line where possible between Connolly and Howth Junction
- Implement a 24 hour bus route on each QBC
- Further improve upon Network Direct - increase frequency of bus services on each QBC and develop new routes where possible
- Metro North
- Metro South from SSG to Tallaght via Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, and Knocklyon
- DART to the Airport
- Develop a second bus station for regional services in Dublin city centre
- Implement increased bus priority where possible across the city
- Implement improved network of orbital bus routes including peak hour Xpresso services
- Develop network of local bus routes serving Dublin Airport from across North Dublin
- Develop BRT where possible but on shorter routes than originally planned
- Develop a network of Park & Ride sites on major routes into the city with public transport to/from the city included in the parking rate

Chivito550 wrote: »

Lots of interesting replies here so far. Thanks.

Despite all the negativity, there are some positive developments of late right?

1) LUAS Cross City – Now the Green Line will be linked up with not just the red line, and the city centre, but also the Maynooth and M3 Parkway lines.
2) Re-opening of Phoenix Park tunnel – Now people commuting from Country Kildare, Clondalkin etc can access Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara St, Pearse St and Grand Canal Dock, and it will link up with the DART and Maynooth/MP3 Parkway lines. I can’t understand why this wasn’t done up to now but this is definitely a good development. Also, somebody living in Drumcondra area working in Grand Canal can commute this so easily, without having to change to a DART.

So the above maybe push us up from 3/10 to 4/10.

People go on and on about connecting the two LUAS lines - frankly that is not such a huge priority - I don't see there being huge numbers transferring between the two. People can already do the trip from Heuston to SSG using a single bus (25a/b, 145).


I also don't see huge numbers transferring from the Maynooth line to the Green Line unless they have to, given that they will have to pay a second fare (albeit with a €1 discount), and that they can get to Pearse without paying twice. Returning, it would be very difficult to predict when to get on a tram to get to Broombridge in time for a train (no tram timetable), whereas it is much easier for most users to predict how long it will take to walk to one of the three city centre stations.


While the PPT plan is a positive one, I would have to point out that someone living in Drumcondra will be able to take a Maynooth line train to Grand Canal Dock when the City Centre re-signalling project is completed - it won't need the occasional trains from the Kildare line to do that (remember that will be only 1 train per hour off-peak and 2 per hour at peak). All of the Maynooth and Northern line trains that currently terminate at Pearse will extend to Grand Canal Dock to use the new turnback platform.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Has work started on this re-signalling? When is it due to be completed?

Yes it is ongoing - so far the lines between Malahide/Howth and Killester have been completed.

Currently the focus is on the section between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock, and the track is currently being re-modelled at Grand Canal Dock. This involves the northbound platform switching sides of the island platform, and the current northbound platform becoming a turnback platform for Northern Line, Maynooth and Kildare line trains. This will mean that the number of conflicting movements will greatly reduce in number.

It's due to finish around summer/autumn next year.

The Phoenix Park Tunnel services cannot start until the re-signalling project is completed as it will increase the number of trains that may cross the loop line bridge between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock each hour.

zulutango wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but where I am based (Limerick City), Michael Noonan has allocated something like 18 million euro to build a footbridge that serves no function whatsoever. There's actually an existing footbridge less than 50 metres away. This is one of many vanity projects that happen around the State and that mean that key infrastructural projects don't happen. Personally I think it should be a national scandal but the press haven't cottoned on to it yet.

To be fair, it wasn't Michael Noonan but the city council, but thats a seperate issue

the number one reason most people my age don't get the bus or train is because it is cheaper to drive.
nobody wants to admit that, because it gives the powers that be a green light to increase parking, clamping, tolls and motor tax rates.
what actually it should do is ask people why these services are designed to break even on costs?
is the point of public transport to take people out of cars and not to provide a revenue stream?

the cost of doing business could drop significantly if traffic wasn't such a problem in the city, but that's a long term benefit to giving the semi-states a bigger budget, and no department is allowed wait for long term benefits.